Blah blah blah America this China that. It doesn't matter. History will always prove that the world is forever changing. Whether we accept it or not, there will always be two polar opposites to every story. There has never been a good side or a bad side.... Just opposing sides. As we gain more technologies and "understanding" of the world and the people around us, we still remain the soft and fleshy creatures who try not to make as many mistakes they did the previous day. Its the blessing and curse that each of us were born with: our individuality and the occasional willpower to back it up. Accept yourself and accept others. What is radical to them might be normal to you; vise verse.

Now that my rant is over with:
I think with a little scooby doo detective work we'll find it was done by an independant person or group of people (perhaps paid by a government - not necessarily China. They could just reside in or reroute to China). That'd be the smartest way for any government (or company) to go about "spying" on another. Most of the Paypal and EBay phishing scams I trace to their source (which I do to pass the time) lead me back to China or Eastern Europe. Yes, it'd be brilliant for a government to scam billions of people but I don't see them liking it directly linked to them. Seperation can lead to future denial. Every government on this planet knows that one (even ours). HA! It could even be an American person/s who just doesn't like China and thrive on creating conflict.... This stuff happens all the time. It doesn't take much to do a digital magicians handtrick and make people look the other way. Plus, it would be hard to investigate. Its not like the Chinese government will let the Feds roll in to do forensics on their computers and servers. I think it'd be a cool trick, really. Why would anyone do this? Maybe just to get people to submit blogs and posts to articles reporting to their "crafty" handiwork. Never underestimate the human ego

Let's just add this to the growing list of things to recall from China. Yeah, that should fix things.

I think China has just been making itself heard of late, not unlike Russia.

The old paradigm of the western Caucasian-dominated world (in finance, trade and military adventures) is just not on and they are saying so.

Anyone trying to talk this up as a 'threat' from the Chinese is, IMO, just deluded, they aren't going to attack anyone, they don't have to.

......they hold so much US debt that they have a voice that will be heard.

As it was recently put to me (so rightly IMO) we can either talk as men and be reasonable with each other
or
we can act as dogs and re-run world warring and shove new generations into the grinder (but this time a grinder with a nuclear edge).

I know which I prefer.

Wow wait to bring race into it. "western Caucasian-dominated world" eh?

And if your concept of "attack" is so limited that it only includes landing troops then sure it's HIGHLY unlikely that they would do that to anyone... unless of course Taiwan decides to formally declare independence.

But "attack" can of mean so much more: They've been "attacking" the U.S. and other countries through espionage for quite some time now. Artificially fixing their currency to ours and buying up loads of our debt as you mentioned could be seen as economic warfare. They've been pretty actively waging war against their own populace for some time as well (with the help of Yahoo! of course.)

Diplomacy is always the preferable option but there ARE some times where it just doesn't work and other actions have to be taken. Lets be serious here though the U.S. is not going to attack China any more then China is going to attack the U.S.

"Wow wait to bring race into it. "western Caucasian-dominated world" eh?"

- What, are you really denying that the world is currently 'run' by western Caucasians (and has been for over a century)?

I'm a western Caucasian but I'm not in denial. A world dominated by one 'race' (tho we are actually all just the one human race) is not a healthy thing, long-term.

"They've been "attacking" the U.S. and other countries through espionage for quite some time now."

- That would be similar to the way western nations have been "attacking" China in a similar way then, huh?

"Artificially fixing their currency to ours and buying up loads of our debt as you mentioned could be seen as economic warfare."

- You must be joking.
They bailed the USA out of it's 'live now, pay tomorrow' debts and you reckon that's an evil act on their part!?

Wow.

.....and as a sovereign nation they are entitled to run their own economy as they see fit; you might not want a 'command economy' where you are but they are free as a sovereign nation state to pursue their own strategy.
That cannot be seen as an 'attack' by any rational person.

"They've been pretty actively waging war against their own populace for some time as well (with the help of Yahoo! of course.)"

- They are a state with a 5 - 6000 year history and a recent history of war and a foreign attempt at enslavement & genocide.
Not forgetting a fairly recent attempt by the US to extend a 'sphere of influence' in SE Asia.

But I doubt my (or your) ideas of freedom is the same as theirs.....and I doubt they would see us as 'free' either.

Some things they do I would not tolerate myself but then some of the things the US Gov/system has I would not tolerate either.

"What, are you really denying that the world is currently 'run' by western Caucasians (and has been for over a century)?"

I'm not denying anything. I'm saying it's irrelevant and completely unnecessary to bring race into the discussion.

"That would be similar to the way western nations have been 'attacking' China in a similar way then, huh?"

I'm not the one who said the U.S. wasn't attacking anyone (Iraq, Afghanistan anyone?). Even the article states "Even though it publicly denounced hacking, China has been known to attempt to snoop around US government computers. In the same token, it is likely the US does the same." I do not disagree with the last part at all. You are the one who is apparently so naive as say China isn't going to attack anyone.

-You must be joking.
Do you actually think they bought up that debt out of the goodness of their hearts? It was a calculated move to increase our economic dependence on them and their influence over us. I never said it was "evil" it's more a competition, a VERY high stakes game we playing... or as I said an economic version of warfare.

As a sovereign nation they are entitled to run their economy as they see fit. They can base their currency off of gold, or silver, or tea; they can let it float, whatever they want. But when they fix it's value to another countries currency in order to keep their currency artificially low in comparison and thus their exports to that country artificially low and that countries imports to China artificially high then that crosses the line. It's not longer an internal issue when it's fixed to OUR (external) currency.

"I'm saying it's irrelevant and completely unnecessary to bring race into the discussion."

- You're of course entitled to your view but that strikes me as something it's easy for western Caucasians already running most of the show to say.

"You are the one who is apparently so naive as say China isn't going to attack anyone."

- I'd say the 'naivety' is to go along with such loaded language.
They all snoop on each other whether that be military or industrial espionage.

I'd prefer people stopped talking up such dangerous language.

"Do you actually think they bought up that debt out of the goodness of their hearts?"

- I think you'll find the way it works is that the US Gov offers those debts (bonds) to the market.
No-one forces the US Gov to sell bonds to the international markets but once they are offered then, provided the US Gov is willing to sell them to the interested party, anyone with the money is free to buy them and fund the US economy.

It's not exactly a secret that China has been doing this nor that the US Gov has been perfectly happy to enter into this arrangement and sustain (and expand greatly) this economic relationship......although if it is news to the 'regular US citizen' then that is surely something they ought to raise with their Gov & media for not informing them about.

It's a tad rich to claim this market is somehow Chinese skulduggery.

"It was a calculated move to increase our economic dependence on them and their influence over us."

- Rubbish.
It was an economic move beneficial to both the USA & China.
The USA got the short and long-term funding she wanted/needed and the Chinese got debt they imagined offered them some financial security as they expected the US Gov would stand by it if they ever needed to call it in.

The fact that the USA has elected a Gov that spends money it hasn't got like some kind of drunk is hardly China's fault.

"But when they fix it's value to another countries currency in order to keep their currency artificially low in comparison and thus their exports to that country artificially low and that countries imports to China artificially high then that crosses the line. It's not longer an internal issue when it's fixed to OUR (external) currency."

- Actually it is and always remains so.

If the USA doesn't like it they can refuse to do trade with China......but given the American love for cheap imports that'll never happen.

.....and it's worth pointing out that it works both ways.
The USA is artificially keeping the value of the $ high (by pursuing policies like selling debt and raising funds at a vast rate from the rest of the developed - or in the case of China, developing - world).

So, was the Pentagram using Vista or something? I don't understand; aren't their vital systems off the internet? Don't they have MilNet? If anyone should have a system closed off of the Internet, it's the DoD. They have smart people over there... these are the people that found all those WMDs in Iraq, remember?

This makes me ill.

you dont have to be hooked up to the internet to get hacked, or to have a computer system infultrated

No, but it does have to be available to China... maybe they cracked MilNet? Either way, my confidence is still low in DoD.

So what voodoo allows you to get hacked without any connections to the internet?

Thru a local network or email or wireless are all ways traffic passes to computers. One of those has a connection to the internet at some point or another.

Otherwise - without one of those connections you won't get hacked and have info be transmitted back to the Chinese without having some sort of connection.

a computer not connected to any networked can be hacked, all a person would need is access to that computer. The DoD and the pentagon have a ton of people working there. personal could easily be be how they got hacked.

go read about it a lil, hacking over a network is just a part of hackng but dose not nessicarly have to be part of the hack.

Did you read the whole article? "Only unclassified information may have been compromised" Their "vital systems" ARE off the internet. The computers that were hacked were shut down for a week... how vital could that have possibly been if they were able to just shut them down for an entire week while they resolved the issue?

That would not surprise me at all. They do not like the concept of a free world.

Who told you that? Your government-run schools or your government-regulated media? I suppose the government-security services might have told you, or politicians working for the political machine.

China is by no means free, obviously, but we largely base this on what? The dribble that comes from our governments?

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng

http://www.amnestyusa.or...=3&n2=30&n3=884

http://en.wikipedia.org/...le\'s_Republic_of_China

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=asia&c=china

http://hrichina.org/public/

I know they are not free, the question is who apart from governments believe they are an enemy?

Its not suprising, 1.1 billion people - there is a lot of room for some money making if we ever do go to war with them.

if your not satisfied with the way our country is run then you are free to leave.

America, **** YEAH!

roll eyes

If we did go to war with China it would erupt into a worldwide conflict within weeks. And considering the sheer amount of manpower they could muster for ground troops alone (even cannon fodder troops who are poorly armed) in a land-based conventional war they'd be a serious force to reckon with. I wouldn't be surprised if the US probably ends up using tactical nukes to nullify their forces.

correction - 1.6 billion
1.1 billion is the population of india

about 1 out of 3 people in this world is from india or china

ya they have alot of people there, but that dosnt mean they are all willing to fight, forced or not

I just love comments from people like you. This country is build on freedom of speech. I guess if you don't like this idea, you are welcome to leave this country.

No we don't. Yes, US made a lot of money from wars. It bailed us out of the great depression and others. We were able to made money because all these wars were fought in other countries. If we do go to war with China, do you think the Chinese will fight the war in China and not United States? It will be in both ends.

"China has a well-documented history of serious human rights abuses, including widespread torture, censorship of the media and internet, controls on religious freedom, and repression of ethnic minorities in Tibet and Xinjiang.

China continues to lead the world in executions. The government classifies the number of people executed as a state secret, but it is believed that China executes many more people than the rest of the world combined each year. Most trials are deeply flawed, as the accused often do not have access to adequate defense counsel, trials are usually closed to the public, evidence is often obtained through torture, and the appellate process lacks needed safeguards. China’s courts lack independence, as they remain controlled by the government and ruling Chinese Communist Party."

Source: http://hrw.org/english/d...07/08/02/china16560.htm

Its no secret that china is a totalitarian society in which you can be arrested for just about anything. Look at Tienanmen Square, the one child policy, the censorship of the internet. Not exactly a country I'd call free. If I were in china I would be doing everything I could to get out.

I don't agree with a lot of things going on in China, but their trials/executions is not one of them. Say what you will about their government, but China remains one of the countries with the lowest crime rate in the world. Given the choice between the Chinese criminal justice system and the American, I'll take the Chinese any day!

In China they don't have murderers and rapists getting off after a couple of years on good behavior and due to over crowded prisons. They also don't have criminals who are obviously guilty getting off on technicalities or due to lack of evidence and lawyers getting rich in the process. We all remember the O.J. Simpson fiasco. They don't have appeals, re-trials, mis-trials, and criminals sitting on death row for 10+ years, consuming tax payer dollars.

Give me a trial that's over and done with in less than 2 weeks, the we shoot the criminal in the head twice and send a bill for the bullets to his family. America needs to adopt a similar system and I guarantee those minorities predisposed to violence (no I'm not naming specifics, but you know who they are) would think twice before committing crimes.

"if your not satisfied with the way our country is run then you are free to leave."

Aren't you patriotic? And where do you propose 1.2 billion Chinese go exactly? Well, let's assume only 10% are unhappy with their government. Where do we send those 120 million people?

Yes, China may have a huge army, but you're forgetting one very important thing.. that gigantic body of water separating the USA from China. Would they swim across to attack? Transporting millions of troops across an ocean is no small feat.

China would not last 2 minutes against the USA in a conventional war. Manpower means nothing in modern warfare.

The problem with going to war with China is the world economy would collapse. Our soldiers would not have any boots. Or clothes. Or electronics. Or many other things.

Our corrupt government has let all the manufacturing leave the USA. We can no longer sustain ourselves.

I try not to judge another country when the country I live in isn't all that much better with human rights and so forth. In Canada we are free to do what we want as long as it doesn't conflict with the law, government and big business.
I could go on about innocent people going to jail because DA needed a scape goat to relieve public pressure, history of how drugs were sold by government agencies to support ongoing wars and so forth.

As for the U.S. and China going to war, I see nothing good coming from that, not just for those two countries but the world. And we need to learn from history if we wish to not repeat it. There is a long history of power house countries falling to a more determined country. And I would never under estimate China they might just surprise you.

And for the topic, did China hack U.S. computers, it would not surprise me if they did. Let's face it, the biggest power in the U.S. it's the information it contains especially on it's citizens, everytime you use a credit or debit card, countless websites like Google and Microsoft and it just goes on. That information if far more valuable then some might think and I could see a future war (sort of) for that information. And that's just the tip of the ice berg I'm sure of what could be gained from certain agencies computers.

That's my 2 cents, and a way too long of a comment :)

I'm thinking we would retreat back to the WWII era with the government propaganda machine going again. Go to the Smithsonian to check out those old school posters from WWII.

"You ride alone you are riding with Hitler"

And we'd all be pressed to save rubber from our shoes and tires and such. It would not be a state I would want to live in.

As for a conventional war with China, I think it would be rather ugly. You are talking about an endless number of people to fight our already outstretched military. What does this mean? The draft would be reinstated and we'd all be going to war.

As for the actual fighting, I highly doubt we have enough conventional missiles and bombs to seriously damage China's capabilities. What does this mean? We would resort to using tactical nukes to wipe out areas.

And again, the US would be the only country in the world to ever use nukes in war. Until China blasted some off at us, North Korea joined with them and launched theirs, then anyone else in the middle east would take their shot. South Korea would retaliate for anything fired from North Korea.

Taiwan would be firing everything they have at China, Japan would have to get involved. Israel would start popping off their American-made nukes. Then you are talking about India and Pakistan getting in on the party.

Undoubtedly France would retreat and try to stay out of it. Switzerland would remain neutral of course. England would join our side as usual. I would assume Germany and the rest of Europe would want to get on our side, but maybe not Turkey. Who knows.

Who does that leave? Oh yea, Chavez in Venezuela would certainly roll up his sleeves and get in on the America-hating action.

Yea, that would be a good time.

*lmao*

Our corrupt government *let* manufacturing go overseas.

Whereas, a non-corrupt government would have put it's foot down and forced them to remain in the US, by force, if needed.

Your logic is, as always, most entertaining.

"China would not last 2 minutes against the USA in a conventional war. Manpower means nothing in modern warfare"

Oh yeah. We all keep forgetting how easily we're cleaning up Iraq and Afganistan. Those are both smooth operations. No resistance or complications or difficulties at all. Conquering little China would be much simpler. And don't forget, we'd still need to maintain operations in Iraq, Afganistan and elsewhere, while scaling up for little old China. Piece of cake.

China would not last 2 minutes against the USA in a conventional war in the US. The US would not last 2 minutes against China in a conventional war in mainland China. All our advanced technology lets us destroy infrastructure and generally cause chaos very efficiently but it does NOT make taking or holding land in a hostile environment that much easier at all.

"Our corrupt government" might have let all the manufacturing leave the USA. What would you have had them do? FORCE manufacturing to stay here when WE were making them leave by choosing to buy the cheap child-labor produced goods at Wal-Mart instead of the more expensive American manufactured goods? You want manufacturing jobs to stay in America? BUY AMERICAN but that's more expensive because we have to pay our workers health care and limit their hours and minimum wages and keep the pollution down that China doesn't need to be bothered with. That makes it kind of hard to compete.

Especially with the U.S. Navy in the way.

Huh.

Didn't know we were trying to "conquer" Iraq. Silly me. Here I thought we were trying to help them route insurgents and stabilze the foothold of the new government.

I would suspect "conquering" them (Making them a US territory) would have been *much* easier.

You'll notice, as you quoted, he specified "conventional war". Our actions in Iraq are far from what anyone would call conventional.

Getting picky. I thought you would get the point that putting up our fists against China, conventional or otherwise, might stretch our resources a bit thin. Then again, why not.

there would be no conventional war, just nukes. it will be one of the shortest wars in history and end it within 1 week.