99.9 % of all this trash is crying about how bad Microsoft is, If you don't like the OS. Go buy a Mac and went you need to Upgrade the hardware your SOL you have to buy the parts from Mac and if you think you can buy the parts at best buy or some other store YOU CAN'T, or Go to walmart and buy a computer with Lindows and then you have to pay another $99.00 to get it to run if you don't pay you can't run it, then you have to pay another $99.00 a Year to download programs from Lindows webstore.

Its funny how every betanews article that involves microsoft gets the same reaction from people. Anti-MS people would bash MS for being a monopoly, use unfair business tactics, create crappy insecure products, steal ideas, and they think Bill Gates should die. These people are usually linux and mac supporters. Then there are the people who uses MS products everyday who defends MS againts all the attackers. These people don't necessarily like MS, but they MS makes good products and they can't stand anti-MS bashing. So posts after posts, it's always the same argument which rarly has little to do with what the news article is about. But its interesting because you learn something new once a while.

well lets face it they dug themselves holes.
MS force people to use software designed for their O/S

they made the biggest joke puller with Works.
Microsoft Works - The Biggest Contradiction Ever!!

Windows would not be around if it hadnt been for unix, microsoft copied unix with windows and think about it X-Windows was out in the 70's before microsoft even came up with their implementation, it was then sold (given) to Apple which microsoft copied, lied about, and then blackmailed. hmm...wonder why microsoft are bashed....

Watch the film Anti-trust with Ryan Phillipe, Tim Robbins and Rachel Leigh Cook....its based on TRUE microsoft accounts lol...j/k

we do that because we have open minds and intelligence...M$ are just M$ b*tches...people who like to be told what to do...when to do it...and how to do it...plus they like insecure, crashing environemnts...that way they can look and feel so smart when they reboot...

you ...... dont .................................. sound.....................intelligent....................................................................

please install your latest sp....................................................................................................................since you don't have a live and need something to do....................................................................................................................reboot a couple of times.................................................................................................................just for fun

-----------------------------------------------
please install your latest sp......................................................................................
..............................since
you don't have a live and need something to do......................................................................................
..............................reboot
a couple of times...................................................................................
..............................just
for fun
-------------------------------------------------

Okay first of all, how do I not have a life for installing the latest Service Pack.
Secondly, I dont spend my free time going to chatrooms and forums trying to brainwash and convince people that Linux is a better OS than Windows. Then b**** about Microsoft when your brainwash attempt fail.

From what I understand, people are critizing Windows not because of its flaws, but of how Microsoft is doing their business. I call that "b.itching" or "whining".

I'm not spamming or anything. I created a chat room, inspired by this article. We can meet up and speak our minds about this whole thing. It's irc.solarstone.net
channel #betanews.
As for Microsoft goes, MS knows their current operating systems aren't *that* great, hence the reason why they keep developing newer ones, until they reach perfection. Hopefully this new o/s "longhorne" will be what every windows user hopes for, and much more. MS will always have the top operating system, for many years to come. No other o/s to date has even come close to the ease of use, gui and compadiblity of windows. As for Stability, i'm sure that's MS's goal for the future. win9x, XP still lack proper stability. We'll see what the future brings..

Forgive my typographical errors, it's 3:30am for pete sake.

Back to the subject at hand and throwing out the OS religion nonsense...

I've been keeping up on Longhorn and it promises to introduce quite a few great concepts and to implement some which never really had a chance.

WinFS is what will really revolutionize personal computing. Yes BeOS had the same concept first, however, we'll actually have apps to go along with it. On the flip side, if it comes out, every application will have to be rewritten to take advantage of it and that's why Office 11 won't be able to support anything before W2K. It's already looking forward to Longhorn.

While some people will complain, I say it's about time we got rid of all of the legacy crap. That was what made BeOS so lean and so fast (5 seconds from power on to work) - it ditched all of the legacy crap that makes Windows bloatware. MS really needs to ditch anything 16 bit related, it needs to ditch all of the old hardware support that no one sells or wants anymore (serial, parallel, ISA, PS2, etc) and just clean it up. No DOS application support. For organizations like NASA, teh FAA and others that run specialized applications on DOS and Windows, well taht will always be there and those platforms are as far as they can go. Everyone else should just upgrade. It's a 2005 release date folks. It isn't like your 4-year old computer will be valuable outside the 3rd world or inner city schools.

As far as the Sidebar, it looks pretty amateurish - almost like someone's Desktop X theme. I'm betting it will change rather drastically.

As far as the little details, some of the screens I've seen show that in tiles view, image files are represented by their thumbnails and also icon sizes are controlled by a zoom slider - both very nice, considerate features the Mac has had for a while. There is no sense in having to click 7 times to change your icon size. A slider for each folder is perfect.

On the Explorer left pane with the contextual options, I like that Find is always available. I have so many files that "search" is my primary file browser at work and home. Think of Encarta and searching through information in there.

The Display Properties looks much better. I only wish MS would pick a standardized configuration UI across all configuration and system options menus. Either the MMC view, the web-icized XP Task view, or the traditional tabbed view. Under the MMC you have Disk Management, Computer Management, gpedit and those kinds of things. Under the Task view, you have help and support, control panel, some control panel sub-configurations, etc. Under tabbed view, you have the My Computer (right click properties), display, and others. On top of that, you have several ways to do the same things, but not all ways have all of the exact same options available. They have too many different ways of doing things. It gets to be a pain to remember what is where. If they would just pick ONE WAY, sure people will complain that THEIR WAY is gone, but we can all learn THE WAY much easier than THREE UNEQUAL WAYS. Like the Mac. That's what a lot of the newer Linux distros are trying to do too by eliminating the differences between KDE and Gnome or making their own.

>>it needs to ditch all of the old hardware support that no one sells or wants anymore

argh yet again half my post went missing

>>it needs to ditch all of the old hardware support that no one sells or wants anymore

oh for freaks sake!!!!!!! oh i give up. SERIAL MUST STAY.

oh ok i get it now!

"it needs to ditch all of the old hardware support that no one sells or wants anymore"

you need to learn to see beyond the end of your nose. ok so most external devices for the average home user are usb based now, but there are a LOT of specialist devices still coming out that are serial based. I built a PC that needed a lcd display - of which there seem to be NO usb ones available yet, only serial or parallel. It also had infrared reciever - again only serial ones available.

It is VITAL that OS's retain legacy support for a few more years at least.

Windows' strongest feature has always been compatibility, take that away and you suddenly make it a LOT harder for people to upgrade. BeOS may have been fast, but it never caught on - maybe at least part of that was because it wasnt that compatible with anything.

Seems to me that a lot of the people who respond to the comments in here have their heads stuck up their proverbial asses!
Microsoft are screwing not only Americans but every other country too!
Overpriced, out of touch!
I cannot wait for the day when someone, out their, develops an operating system which will finally stop earning Bill Gates and his lackies hundreds of billions.
Thinking of buying the new version? Then take the release date and add about three years and who knows - it might work as it was intended to! 13 months since XP was released and still got bugs! Look through various forums and you will see what I mean.

Dude, chill...

A very high percentage of PC's running Windows XP run it very well. (I have 5 of them running XP now and have had no real problems at al)

Besides, you try it some day. . . Make an OS that will run on EVERY PC on the market. That means you have to make sure that every manufacturer of every computer part makes decent drivers. .

Oh yeah, that's WHQL certification, Microsoft already thought of that.

Well, maybe you could write an API that would allow even idiot programmers to write code that won't crash the syste.,. .

Oh yeah, that's .NET, microsoft already thought of that.

As far as allowing competition?

It is NOT Microsoft's responsibility to see to it that other companies create a decent product.

It is NOT Microsofts responsibility to make sure that their Operating System isn't quite so good that no-one will use anything else,

NOR to make sure that they don't sell too many copies (for the reasons above) and take a huge chunk of Market-share, because, well. . . then they get called a monopoly.

Example? People complain that MS is too ubiquitous, so they raise their prices, bail out Apple by giving them an enormous amount of money, and begin to charge for products they once let people use for free. What happens? People b**** that prices are too high, they scream that Microsoft is trying to leverage some shady deal with Apple, or they complain that they have to buy something that should be freely licensed.

Give me a break. I thank God he doesn't simply look at these raving morons and just give up. Why bother trying to bring together the hardware and software of the IBM Compatible Industry on a platform in which they will work decently when all you get is people shi**ing on you all the time. . .?

The main reason people say windows is full of bugs is becuse it's simply most used system on the most diffent computers. To sum up, many bugs are reported becuse many people is using it.

This year linux is being used by many more people, as a result of this, linux has this year Beaten windows in number of Bugs!

VisionX, just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, you know that the case against Microsoft hinged less around Microsoft's market share, and more around their (allegedly) anti-competitive measures used to make sure they could keep said market share.

how can you say they are screwing americans, and other countries? what a moron, i sweare, ms doesn't force anyone to buy it, its up to the induvidual or companies to buy it.
its not like ms forces my 80 year old grandmother to buy a pc, and use xp.
i still have a 386 with dos/wfw 3.11 on it, ms never forced me to upgrade it, and install xp on it.
whats wrong with 99 bucks to upgrade? i agree it could be chieper, and its just ms that over prices? take a look at that new lindows, how much is that??? take a look at other software, there are much more software out there, not an os, and not from ms, that are priced way higher then ms windows.
you best get your head out of your preverbial ass, and see what the world is like outside.
keep an open mind, actually take a look around at prices, actually take a look to see if ms is forcing people to use xp.
stop being so paranoied, looking for half truths and rumors. look at the real facts.

Heh, lindows is a stupid idea anyway, and the reason that it's costing out the ass, is because of windows users' "need" to pay too much for software. They fear that anything that doesn't cost "similar" to Windows/MacOS can't be as good.

Also guy, you need to pick up a copy of ispell, your spelling is atrocious.

On the subject of "...an OS that will run on EVERY PC on the market. That means you have to make sure that every manufacturer of every computer part makes decent drivers..."

This is not true, alot of free OS's have as much, if not more hardware support than WinXP. None of these free OS's have a corporation behind them, merely handfuls of people. I don't see XP running on a SPARC, but linux, netbsd, and who knows what else does. I know you will argue that a SPARC isn't a PC, but in my opinion, since none of my machines aren't a "workstation" I don't own a PC? To me, a SPARC is a "personal computer" if used that way.

Even hardware for IBM compatible machines isn't supported in XP. I can't get a single one of my hardware modems to work. Nor will it support my old sidblaster soundcard [made specifically for enthusiasts of the c64].

And driver signing is a joke. Any company with enough money can buy a driver cert. That doesn't mean they work well... It's yet another ploy for microsoft to increase their market share.

Heh, go ahead and call my a linux-geek, or a flamer, troll whatever, I don't care. Posting here isn't my life.

And for your information... I've been responsible for a network of over 250 windows based machines, so yes... I do know how s***ty it can be.

Go ahead and develop that OS.

The fact is, when something becomes popular, you need something *revolutionary* to beat it.

That's why Linux, as good as it may be, isn't good enough... unless it somehow revolutionizes computing, it will never come *close* to taking over from Windows. It will always be stuck as a 3% minority of users.

We are at Microsoft's mercy. Like it? Nope, neither do I. Anything we can do about it? Nope!

i have encarta reference library's dictonary, why should i check my spalling just for a naws faram?
you gets whats me saying. :-)
i will try better next time, lol.

I think your wrong in that. Microsoft Windows is popular because of the ease of use. Although Linux is slowly catching up, they are behind when it comes to ease of use. But when it comes to handling the resources of the computer system, Linux is still above Microsoft Windows.

And, Windows supports most or even all applications where as Linux doesn't. Which could explain their market share.

Windows is "popular" because that's what PC makers ship with, not because ease of use. If it went by ease of use, Macs would rule the earth.

Just because there are so many Windows boxes doesn't make them the best. McDonald's sells a lot of hamburgers, it doesn't mean they're the best you can get.

Bzzt...Wrong answer. Up until the lawsuit Microsoft REQUIRED PC makers send them money for every *WITHOUT AN OS* PC
shipped. Get that?

Pull your lips off of Microsoft's buns long enough to look around at the real world.

You REALLY need to check your facts before you post.

You said "Up until the lawsuit Microsoft REQUIRED PC makers send them money for every *WITHOUT AN OS* PC shipped."

That is not true.

One of the contract options offered to OEM's was that they could either pay a flat licensing fee for every PC sold with Windows pre-installed or they could pay a lower flat fee, but for every PC sold no matter how it was configured.

Many OEM's chose the second option because it not only lowered their costs due to reduced recordkeeping requirements, but also because it usually came out cheaper for them in the long run.

All Microsoft ever REQUIRED PC makers to do was to conform to whatever contract they signed. If you check the licensing information brought out during the trial you will see that every one of the OEM's on the "flat rate for every PC no matter what" agreement were also given the option of a "flat rate (but a higher one) for every PC that had Windows on it" and chose which one they wanted to sign.

just because it ships with it, doesn't mean you have to get it. they don't force you to use windows.
you either have a choice of os (depending on the pc maker) or the option of no os.
you can make a custom package, you don't have to take what they give you.

> This is not true, alot of free OS's have as much, if not
> more hardware support than WinXP. None of these free OS's
> have a corporation behind them, merely handfuls of people. I
> don't see XP running on a SPARC, but linux, netbsd, and who
> knows what else does. I know you will argue that a SPARC
> isn't a PC, but in my opinion, since none of my machines
> aren't a "workstation" I don't own a PC? To me, a SPARC is a
> "personal computer" if used that way.

...plus, I'd like to see Windows XP run on a toaster or microwave like NetBSD can...

You said "...plus, I'd like to see Windows XP run on a toaster or microwave like NetBSD can..."

It's called Windows XP Embedded and you can see/use it right now.

Any other requests?

Linux is a piece of crap. It doesn't support about half of my hardware. Examples: SoundBlaster Extigy sound card, my GeForce2 graphics card (even though drivers are available, they don't work.), D-link USB radio, and much more.. It could be the best operating system in the universe but if I can't use my hardware with it then it is worthless.

Given what you say this practice seems somewhat anticompetitive unless the difference between the two contracts is very small, to cover for example paper work.

Should another OS come in and gain market share the manufacturer will still be paying MS. This in effect makes the other OS disadvantged because they can’t compete on price (unless of course that price is zero, and this will not be the case even for Linux).

Given the current situation the manufacturer would be crazy to choose any other contract than the apparently anti-competitve one. Especially when that’s what every one else is doing. If they choose to pay more then they are disadvantaging themselves against there competitors. This could be disastrous in the current market where there are very slim margins indeed.

First of all how do you count a bug. Its in MS interest to underplay the number of bugs.

Even if it is true there are more bugs found in Linux that means it will be better later on. More are reported and fixed. You can find a bug fix it quickly yourself. Especially if its serious you can be dammed sure it will get fixed quick, by someone. No annoying waiting for some proprietry company to get around to it years later.

Don't bash Linux just because you can't get your GeForce drivers to work. At least nvidia released a driver! Look at ATi... all they did was release the FireGL 8800 driver (didn't even change the filename) and call it a "Unified Linux Driver". Linux would be 200% better if hardware manufacturers just took the time to port their drivers to Linux. It isn't _that_ hard and they would increase their market by a whole bunch.

Correct.

This practice was deemed anti-competitive and Microsoft no longer does it.

I was simply correcting deanj who claimed (incorrectly) that "Up until the lawsuit Microsoft REQUIRED PC makers send them money for every *WITHOUT AN OS* PC shipped."

There must be a reason why they dont. Maybe its because getting them to work perfectly with the infinite versions of all libs there are out there is close to impossible? Im sure its something to do with not being able to release a driver of good enough quality to want to put their name on.

Plus if they release it, most end users then feel they should also support it (nightmare!).

get your lips of the penguin moron, screw major computer companies, they make enough money anyways, and they screw consumers in the exact same way ms would, its called business, duh.
the thing is, the consumer DOES NOT have to purchacse windows with the computer, and they never have.
i have gotten systems from major players, like ibm, and hp, without the os, and saved money.
i also work for ibm, in product customization, many systems pass through me, and we wipe the harddrive, and sell no os with it, or we sell it with os/2 or linux.
if you call up hp or anyother company, you can get the system without the os, and you always were able to.

don't be bashing macdonalds, they are the best fast food IMHO, they do make very good fries. lol

I have installed longhorn and can't seem to get the dock to show up. I was wonderiung if anyone knows where the on switch for the feature is.
thanks

Enable Sibar:

Right-click on the taskbar, select properties. Check the box labeled Show Sidebar.

Disable WinFS (BIG Performance boost):

Open Control Panel - Administrative Tools. Open Services and disable Windows Future Storage and Windows File Prototion (Should disable by default when you disable WinFS)

I would like to have the best of all OS's...be it Apple, Windows, Solaris, OS/2, etc.

If it makes my work easier...put it in the OS I use.

FYI... it was Xerox, at PARC that invented the mouse and developed the concepts of graphic UI. Jobs took both things from them as Xerox executives were not interested, neither patented that. Microsoft took the graphic interface from Apple, when developed Multiplan for Mac...

All Apple, IBM, MS and all Unix are based in Xerox researchs.

Does no one remember the Amiga? It had Windows before MS but after MAC. It's windows however were 4096 colors with a potential or 1.4 million when Mac was still B&W. It had true Plug and Play and had SCSI on the desktop at an affordable price. It also had Hi-Fi stereo when ever one else was 4bit mono. It was superior in it's day but MS and Apple beat it at marketing.

Microsoft, these g**d*** plunderers do nothing big but bring in a new interface and little else and they project it as something big. why dont they try developing something new and revolutionary rather than improvise upon s*** and make"s***" better. How does it matter. s***'s gonna be s*** whether you have it plain or salted...

I invented the question mark.

If you don't think MS has done *big* thinks, just compare Windows 95 with Windows XP... check the architecture details, functionality, scalability. Also, take a look to the forcoming Windows .NET Server... you'll get surprised. If you think in that way... you could also say the same about Apple, which took al old man like Unix, put a nice interface and launched OS X as the big thing... then???

Then, you can also take a look at Linux... What is Linux? a free Unix... and what was FreeBSD? another free Unix... so... where is the *big deal* with Linux?

Oh yea XP has only a few extra features, besides being completely based on being user friendly with all of its aspects such as networking, and yea sure the new streamlined interface is superficial but hey, they managed to make an amost idiot proof o/s that runs on many different makes of machines, unlike the macintosh that only really runs on macintosh machines that are completely intergrated together and have error codes that you need a book to dechiper, oh yay mac really wins over xp

Its always the case with Mac users well mac had it first.
That maybe the case but where did they go with it no where. And Microsoft is this greedy corperate monster. And Linux is so much better? If thats the case then why concern your self if MS charges for their OS. Unless the only reason your using Linix is because your just to cheap to buy XP.
And next time you go to collect your check for the work you do. Think of the people at MS and quit your complaining. If Steve Jobs is such a great person and Gates a corperate tyrant. If I were you go see which one out of the 2 donates more money.

The one who donates more money makes the best OS...huh???!!! interesting...don't forget Monsieur Bill Gates is trying to monopolise everything in the computerworld...so maybe someday in the future he'll take over the President...and MS'll rule over the world...only the poor go for linux eh??!! oh yeah and anyone who runs winxp is a billionaire!!! Grow up mr. prophetiv...don't deviate from what the forum is all about...talk sense...please...

Obiously none of you MS haters notice a truly innovative company when you see one. MS makes great products that are less buggy than those slow Macintosh computers. I am one of those smart few that switched from a Mac to a PC. My PC is much faster. Plus, I was forced to get this horrible PB G4 and it always crashes. Any unbiased and knowledgeable person would find that Microsofts business isn't criminal but innovative.

Are you trying to tell me that Windows is more stable than the UNIX based Mac OS X and that a CISC processor PC can outperform a dual RISC processor Power Mac G4? Are you also trying to tell me that reinstalling windows with those multiple reboots, driver loading, and having to insert that 25 character key is easier than just popping in a cd and reinstalling Mac OS X?

You're on crack. You have never used a mac in your life.

1) Steve Jobs doesn't have 50 BILLION dollars
2) Bill Gates business practices are horrible
3) Bill Gates has no regard for any other company
4) Bill Gates (line any sane person) donates money because he's become successful and anybody else (give that amount of money would donate some of it.

all i can say is this, windows xp is the best so far stable and really great, used it and never had problems, i also use mac os x 10.2.2 and is awsome, and if u any of you say there is not mac software you might b on something, think of this, mac software is less then pc, but how much of the pc software is of good quality compared to the mac. also not a hardcore fan of mac anymore, but that unix enviroment really pushes me that way, not a linux fan or cmd line, but with the mac is easier. sure my main computer is a windows xp pro, but for fun i use my mac, and think of this, most of unix software can run on the mac, done

> That maybe the case but where did they go with it no where.
> And Microsoft is this greedy corperate monster. And Linux is
> so much better? If thats the case then why concern your self
> if MS charges for their OS. Unless the only reason your
> using Linix is because your just to cheap to buy XP.

Actually, the reason I run Linux is for (1) stability, (2) a more robust, responsive, and cooperative coding environment for Web Applications, (3) the compliance with STANDARDS.

If you've read up on things that Microsoft has been trying to roll out with Longhorn / Blackcomb, you'd be aware that MS is attempting to spread it's own proprietary version of the Tried-and-True TCP/IP stack that will only be capable of communicating between machines authenticated against one another using the same proprietaty TCP/IP stack.
Or, in layman's terms, they're trying to brute-force out a new networking protocol that will prevent non-Windows machines from talking to a Windows machine AT ALL...and prevent Windows machines from talking to non-Windows machines.

Monopolistic practices? No...never...
Just because they want to take the billions of dollars that federal governments around the world and countless years of university research on the IP/V6 networking standard, throw it in the toilet, and force their customers to run with a non-standards-compliant, proprietary, and (if history proves us anything about Microsoft products) bug-ridden communications protocol.

Do some reasearch on what your Lord and Saviour Bill Gates is trying to sneak into their OSes before defending them...you'd probably be disgusted at some of their business practices...

That's a great comment. Really makes me wonder why the hell anyone would want to make new car models. I mean, really - ever since Ford put together his car, all they've done is mess around with something that anyway always has four wheels and moves around.

Amiga was a cool computer i still ahve one laying around somewhere

Well, i've just read lot of the reply's and the only thing i feel is left too say is that whatever this is all going to, it doesn't matter what microsoft's next move is because it all comes down to the individual actually making a decision and buying the equipment..

If you want linux you just go to a hardware specialized shop and ask for what you want and pay for what you want..

You won't find linux computers on someone's wish list because it is not the most compatible one... you want users? you get compatibality !!!everybody has to eventually learn how to use an os, wether it is one from microsoft or the linux guys..

Microsoft just has become the standard for computerisation, we all know it's buggy but still we buy it because there just is nothing compared like it ! And people do look at a dime and it's not always performance that counts in the hardware department, but they do want ease of use,like said before, and really that's what it all comes down to..

anyway, they took the world in fell swoop and now were all depented on that failable system...

windows will never be perfect, how much we want it to be, there are so many things to test that it's almost impossible to do, and it's that impossibilaty were the failure lays...

Well stated. I am glad we can choose which OS we want.

Well... that will depend in the furture...... seeing if Bill Gates will have to infect every PC with his OS. This is why the MAC was created... For freedom of the PC OS dwellers... Yay for the mac! :-)

First of all four tyres work good on cars. that's why there's no need for a fifth tyre.

if they did make a car with 3 tyres, and try improving the handling by changing something as irrelevent as the tyre color or the shape of the tyres, and claim they've "reduced" handling problems, or if they say "we'll give you rugged cushions for your butt. that'll cushion your crash." it's stupid. so what i'm trying to say is "Bring in the fourth tyre and kill handling problems". try and make the driver "not fall" rather than make him fall "less harder". get it? or buy a car which comes with 4 tyres!

or like in case of the windows users, the other thing you could do is, say "People are so used to falling anyway, so how does it matter? i might as well spend the money i'd spend on a new car, on repainting my good'ol 3 wheeled car, and adding alloy wheels to it...will even consider new fluorescent cushions to protect my butt and maybe a few color ribbons flying out behind me...reaching out to the skies...(am referring to the interface changes in windows)."
so don't stick to a three wheeled car just because you've never tried a four wheeled car. it might be a lot better than you think it is.

hope that answers your question mr.tremorchrist

If this isn't supposed to be out for another couple of years, do you think that they would have the GUI this nice? No. Plus, it is supposed to be NT6, based on SQL. I can't imagine they would be this far along on it.

The next version of their SQL server, Yukon, it's supposed to be done until some time next year. They can't halt the development of Longhorn until Yukon is ready.

It doesn't matter anyway, programming the OS features is independent of what filesystem is in use. When Yukon is ready they'll bring up the new file system, until then they have plenty to work on

Looks promising.... but it is alpha so we'll just see how it progresses in the next few years. XP was a step in the right direction... ditching the buggy 9x core for the NT core was a smart move in terms of stability. I can't imagine using a non-NT based Windows as my main OS anymore since i upgraded.. but i do hope they drop the pricing at least down to what 98 & ME were when released, not double as XP Home currently is....

XP Home Upgrade is $99
XP Home Full Version is $199

same as Windows95, 98, 98SE and ME.

What's your point?

now they are copying the dock from Mac OX...if M$ has the superior technology why copy from Apple...hehehe

And Apple copied the dock from Sun's? (HP, IBM and Novell apparently helped in making it) CDE: http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/cde/

Here's a screenshot if you like:
http://www.plig.org/xwinman/screenshots/dtwm.gif

In most cases you're always going to be copying someone in some way or another. If you improve on that idea, that's called innovation. I haven't seen the Longhorn 'dock' so I cannot comment on it directly.

Wow, you Apple people really are stuck in your own little world, aren't you. Looks like Unix or not, you'll never change.

Beside Sun's docked bar, there was also IBM's OS/2 launchpad, which predates Apple's and possibly Sun's too.

ya know, Apple did purchase NeXT... and they did have a dock-like interface... and OS X is really NeXTStep merged with a bunch of Apple usability research and the BSD kernel... so maybe there's nothing sinister going on here?

Naw.

Windows 1.0 also had a type of dock.

Actually, CDE is an Open Source desktop called the Commen Desktop Enviornment, and easily predates OS/2. Origionally, it was the desktop for the origional branch Unix systems and BSD systems. Sun adopted it as their "desktop of choice" about the time SunOS hit r5. So while this is a really really old idea, and unix users like myself have been using it for more than a decade, MS is finally catching up. Maybe one day they'll even learn what "security" means.

hehe. I agree

If anyone from Microsoft reads this then please ensure that this version when released is better thought out, researched and more complete than XP was. Its now 13 months since XP hit the shops and there are still a multitude of moans around. I myself, recently "backgraded" to ME, just far too many problems with XP.
Finally, I hope this new version is less expensive than XP now that you have largely eroded many warez versions. Microsoft may be worth hundreds of billions but ordinary folk like me are not! Drop the price and far more people would buy it!

Win Me? Are u on crack? thats the worst version of windows ever released. XP is more stable and much more functional only other windows w9orth using beyond that is win2k pro. As for ripping off apple...umm just in case u missed it...their dock is a rip off from the taskbar. The sidebar is a long needed improvement over the already useful taskbar. I use MSN 8 and the dashboard is a great feature to have.

is that why a ton of windows users are making their own version of the dock for their computers, and trying to emulate the os x look/feel?

i dont think ive ever seen a mac user say "i gotta get something that works like that windows taskbar!!!!!"

not a knock on MS or anything like that. just get your facts straight. the dock is really not a ripoff of the taskbar. if it is, they took the general idea (somewhere for running apps to be shown to the user, etc) and did it almost flawlessly.

IIRC, the OSX dock was inherited from the NEXT dock, from which the Windows 95 task bar was ripped off. Hard to keep track of who is copying who sometimes...

I'm not sure where the TaskBar originated form, but I know that the Dock came from NeXT, which was in turn bought by Apple.

IMHO, the taskbar and dock are the natural evolution of any moder GUI OS .. where the heck else are you going to put your apps? Win 3.1 was insane until Calmira and others released their own custom shells with task bars.

The way I see it, ever since Steve Jobs saved apple from imminent death with the iMac, the only thing apple has really given the world are 'pretty things.' The iMac was cute, not like it was a revolution in actual computing. The OS looks neat, with the dock and all. I felt it was shortly after then PC's caught up with the power of Mac's, and yes I'm decently trained on both. Plus, oddly enough, I HAVE heard Mac users say "man, I wish we had an app like that (insert winows app here) program you got." Granted not often, but still. I really don't think Apple has a whole lot to offer anymore besides a computer in 6 different bubble-gum colors, and a pretty OS. Bring on Longhorn, I can't wait.

Does anyone have any opinions for docks that mimic OSX's? Personally, I hate Stardock stuff...

For a good, highly customizable Windows Explorer replacement that can mimic OSX's Aqua interface, try Talisman, available here: http://www.lighttek.com/

And no, I don't work for them

Since Jobs has revitalized Apple, they have introduced USB, Firewire, Wifi, LCD screens and optical mice to the consumer market.

They have written an easy to use gui that sits atop a nsd kernel that can still run traditional MacOS apps via OS9.2.

They have introduced a journalling filesystem to the consumer market, they have introduced excellent video, sound, email and web apps to the market. They have introduced the best, still the best, mp3 player to the market.

And all you see is the colors. Meanwhile, Microsoft, with vastly more resources, has tweaked the NT kernel and introduced the xBox.

you make it sound as though Apple invented these technologies. LCD montitors were around in pletiful quantities before Apple introduced them Apple was just the first company to offer it as the only option.

IMHO, it's not so much "introduced" as "forced upon"

Microsoft tweaked the NT kernal, introduced the Xbox, developed tablet PCs, designed an operating system for smart phones, developed the pocket PC platform, created an enviorment that shatters the barriers between programming languages that drastically improves application development, and are about to introduce computer screens that can be used anywhere in a house without toting the computer along.

Actually Microsoft saved Apple when they bought about half of their stock to save the almost-bankrupt company. And like was said earlier, many ideas were taken from Xerox. The GUI, the mouse ... all invented by Xerox before anyone else had them.

Wow...Windows ME is the worst version of Windows ever!
Why not downgrade to 98 or just use 2000 Professional?

Well, IIRC, Firewire was at least co-developed by Apple, and they own the name Firewire.

I've seen a demo of this performed by MS . I wouldn't get any hopes up too far. Most of the code in .NET Server will be leveraged to build Longhorn after .NET Server is released. Expect Longhorn to be a home version of that.

A big clue as to the innovation is in the code names (and I heard this right from one of the MS'ers when they were doing the demo). Whistler is a mountain in Redmond. Longhorn is the tavern at the base of the mountain. They're taking a break before they climb the next mountain.

Actually, Microsoft invented the Optical Mouse -- you can tell because they own the pattent.

But they shared it with Apple (and others) and Apple got the mouse onto the store shelves first.

Go ahead.. look up the fine print on your Apple Optical Mouse. Check out the patent list.. it's there!

-- Whistler is a mountain in Redmond. Longhorn is the tavern at the base of the mountain. They're taking a break before they climb the next mountain.

Actually Whistler and Blackcomb are twin peaks in British Columbia... not a long drive from Redmond. Longhorn is in fact a bar in the resort village at the base of those peaks.

I'm not sure about that... the chip is manufactured by Agilent http://literature.agilen...web/pdf/5988-4573EN.pdf. The appnote this obsoleses dates back to January 2000. HP seems to be the originator of ALL the optical mice.

Are you on complete crack? MS didn't save Apple, not by a longshot. They made a small (150 million) investment for a small amount of non-voting stock, AND they paid out an undisclosed settlement to Apple to close the court case against them for theft of intellectual property. At the point where MS supposedly "saved" Apple, Apple had billions in the bank.
Apple didn't STEAL the concept of the GUI from anyone, Xerox gave it to them. Apple applied for patents on the technology, and MS took it for develpmont of Apps, and then used it on their own OS without permission.
Just for the record, I'm not a Mac user. I'm happy with my Windows PC, and my Linux PC, but it's outright idiotic to spread lies about the competition for whatever stupid reasons you cn think of. Screaming "Microsoft SAVED Apple" is no more true than screaming "Bill Gates Rapes Babies!"

Xerox PARC invented the optical mouse, way back (around?) 1981 or so:

http://www.pcmp.caltech.edu/~d***/highlights.html

So indeed, before both the Mac and MS Windows, there were optical mice in the world.

I've seen a lot of Mac users trying to emulate the start menu / taskbar interface. I haven't seen anyone running osx trying to do the same if that makes you feel better.

and ur must be stuck in the win 3.1 world, god, going back to winme damn, mental issues

That's a good point. I'd forgotten about all those optical mice that were used with Sun workstations and the like. So I agree that they didn't invent the optical mouse, but let me modify my statement and say the modern optical mouse.

The older mice required a special mirrored mouse pad to work. This mouse pad had a grid painted onto it, and that is what the mouse used to orientate itself.

The modern mice actually photograph the surface of whatever they move across. They then compare that photo with previous photos, and can then track the movement of the mouse. They can track mouse movement of close to 3 ft/sec over most surfaces. Well beyond what the earlier mice could do.

So while Agilent/HP did not invent the optical mouse, they've invented the optical sensor that the modern optical mice use. Logitech, Microsoft, and Apple use this family of chips to design their mice.

You must be a retardate rolling back to Windows ME. Didn't you know that ME is the most dreadful version of Windows.

I've run XP Home for a year now. Hmmm only one crash!! I know a lot of people hate XP. Personally I can't see why?? It has been the BEST OS So far other than maybe Win 20000 Only real problem I've found with XP is for whatever the reason I have a heck of a time getting scanners working???

ME???
ME is most Crappy piece of buggy sh** that ms ever produced!

But i must agree that xp CAN be buggy. But if you find the right drivers it is actualy very stable.

Tip: If you want the most stabile windows while also be able to play games and multimedia: the choice is Windows 2000, it is extremely stabile(as long as you dont install crappy freware)
And if you find the right drivers(no good video drivers included) then you got a stabile system with gaming abilty.
But of course you proboly get lower frame rate in 2000.

My advice:
Run XP, if dosent run stabile run Windows 2000!

I'm a windows user but i must confess that OSX looks REALy neat. The problem Apple has is that their os only run on their machines and apple's os is the only os that can run on it. (yeah i know there is a way to install linux on them)
If apple was spillted(Software|Hardwar)
then maybe pc users could beging to use os x
and mac users begin to use windows...

what a moron, he complains about win xp, but he'd rather use win me. lol
xp is the best os ms has released since dos, i run it on 2 computers my self. (a p2, and a celery 850) there is the occasional problem, so what, its to be expected.
of all the computers i've seen it run on, of all the people i talk to that use it, they seem to agree, they have less problems with xp then previous os.
win me was a truly buggy os, it was severly rushed out the door (IMHO). if you'd rather run that, then thats your choice, but if it runs better then xp, then your system must be severly screwed.
i agree with the posts above, about ms having to consider every peice of hardware/drivers.... what do you expect, there are bound to be problems.
if you will say linux is better, is that why it freezes during setup on all 3 of my systems (during initial hardware detection), i mean, come on, thats a superiour os? (ok now im being biest, lol)

Actually, as stated above, Windows 1.0 had a taskbar/dock.

Perhaps going from XP back to (of all things ME) is a sad testimate to what the avg user really understands which is quite different from what most claim to understand as most problems are user error/

I HAVE AN OPTICAL MOUSE FOR MY MAC

Actually I get better framerates in 2000

I'm suprised we havent seen fewt yet in this conversation

Dont pick on the guy he doesnt know much so what. I am a computer tech and i have to deal with people who like ME and 98 all the time. I grew up on 3.51 4.0 and 2000 and i dont down people cause they dont know that FAT and DOS are both outdated. And to all you people using XP have fun using system resourse to have a pretty little blue bar at the bottom and all of you are going to snap back at me with the fact that you can turn it off but why not just get 2000 XP is just a stuff full of goodies type thin. Or are you the guy sthat buy compacs because they give you software withthe os.

Ummm Microsoft doesnt make hardware they hire other companys to do it for them

I'd rather not get involved with the mental midgets thanks. I've been busy reformatting my code and listing it in the file forum. I still read and laugh though. Am shocked that no one else has stepped up and slapped the "know it all's" around though. ;-) (Aitvo -> Fewt)

new name again fewt? you didnt get banned yet again did ya!?

~sigh~ me 2 :D

so much for freedom of speech eh?!

No, I have not been banned. I just went back to using my *real* handle. ;-)

I'm reading all about you morons right now. How XP is better than ME and the usual crap. The thing is, some guy says he don't like XP and prefers WinME and BOOM!!!! Let's just bash him!!!! You Weiners.

MORSEL

On this whole Windows ME Topic. I do agree I would not sell a copy of Millenium to anyone. But I do know many people who have Ran Windows Me with no issues at all. The fact is that when Windows Millenium was released, many of thousands of home users who only needed it for what it could do had no issues with it. On the other hand, people like us who try our best to prove microsoft wrong had it crashing in no time. Millenium had it's target audience. It was not tech people