I'm really sorry to see all of this.

Instead of wasting our energies in this kind of futile debate, we should be encouraging people to use either Opera or Firefox or Mozilla Suite instead of IE (in Windows, that is) as to evade the wave of growing virus and adware/spyware attacks.

Instead, we're indulging our egos: this is better, no mine is!...

I use both: Firefox and Opera. I like them both. Still, I use primarily Firefox, but that's a matter of taste, and tastes aren't open for debate!

How the f.ck did Firefox win this Contest.. I haven't seen a single Feature in FF that wasn't included in Opera.
Opera has Tabbed Browsing like FF
Opera is at least as secure as FF
Opera is faster than FF
Opera has a better Tabbed Browsing System (EVERY Window's a Tab, not like FF where every Popups a new Window)
Opera has Speech
Opera has Mouse Gestures
Opera is extremely customizeable
Opera has better CSS2-support
Opera has the really cool fast-forward feature, works with most galleries, you can browse Apache-DirectoryLists w/o going back after viewing a Pic etc etc etc..
Opera is simply way better than Firefox :D

I spend my life advoiding spy/ad ware that is the main reason and I won't pay for a web browser. Hell I even stopped watching TV and won't even let my kids watch TV because of all of the ads.

Firstly, Firefox won the contest because it's a very good web browser.

Secondly, Every window is a new tab in Firefox and if you want you can make every popup a new tab aswell with a little Tab extension

Thirdly, You've mentioned around 5 features that Opera 8 has, while Firefox has those plus 47 more pages (now thats just the official extension website) of extension. Plus if theres an extension that hasn't been created, you can make it yourself and completely customize Firefox to your liking/needs.

So please tell me again how Opera is better?

Opera fanboy. Opera more customisable than Firefox? That'll be the day. It's bloatware, if you ask me.

Firefox allows it's users to pick and choose what features they want using extensions.

"Opera has Tabbed Browsing like FF"
So... So does every other decent browser.
"Opera is at least as secure as FF"
Any browser other than IE is secure in my book
"Opera is faster than FF"
Not on my system it wasn't.
"Opera has a better Tabbed Browsing System (EVERY Window's a Tab, not like FF where every Popups a new Window)"
There's an extension for that in Firefox.
"Opera has Speech"
Don't need it, don't want it.
"Opera has Mouse Gestures"
So does Firefox. Downlaod the extension.
"Opera is extremely customizeable"
Have you seen how many extensions there are for firefox?
"Opera has better CSS2-support"
Firefox's CSS2 support is fine for me... however, I think I seen a new extension out that provides "better" CSS2 support.
"Opera has the really cool fast-forward feature, works with most galleries, you can browse Apache-DirectoryLists w/o going back after viewing a Pic etc etc etc.."
Sounds like a needless feature for my browsing needs.
"Opera is simply way better than Firefox :D"

Maybe to you... but not to me.

> It's bloatware

If Opera is "bloatware", then how come it's smaller and faster than Firefox?

Yes, Opera is much more customizable from existing elements, FireFox is more buildable from the basic ( in size, too :) ). What a difference! Opera with its "bloating features" is far smaller, than FireFox with basic elements.

Can someone explain the difference between internet browser and web browser? Can't believe people are still read PC world in these days.

Anyway, I used both opera and firefox. Personally I like opera better than firefox because it is easier to use and it is a little bit faster. Normally I use opera to browse the net and use IE for the sites that opera won't render correctly (oh, that does not mean firefox will render the sites correctly, there are sites both opera and firefox failed).

I believe if opera make its software $$ free and ad free, then the public will embrace it more than firefox. Firefox is a good browser, but I think it is over hyped by the meadia and its creator.

In my opinion, it was just simple miscommunication or misinterpretation, an error, nothing to get all huffy about.

Opera apologized and is looking for clairification from PC World to be sure, the world can spin once again.

Asa has to realize they're just as human as those who write code for Firefox are, I mean, look at the regression issue in Firefox with frame injection. Opera messed up, Mozilla messed up... they're human... forgive, forget and do better next time.

Anybody care to notice that the browser that they happen to use does NOT settle anything having to do with this article? Everyone likes something, and that's how it is.

Just because you use (browser x), that doesn't mean therefore it is King Of All Browsers. Some of you need a heapin' helpin' of STHU.

I use Firefox because it's what works for me. Firefox is the browser that is best for me, it does what I want and how I want but that doesn't mean it is the browser of choice for everyone.

When I get asked why people should use Firefox, I always tell them that it's up to them as to why they should use it and that I can only share my experience with Firefox as a personal perspective.

It has great standards support, it's secure in my opinion, offers tabs and many customization features and has a lot to offer through extensions.

Does that mean you should use it based on my experience? No, but if you'd like to try it out then be my guest, I mean who knows, maybe you'll like it for entirely different reasons and then again, maybe you won't like it at all. In any case, use what you like, what works for you and what is comfortable for you.

Opera will never have a large market share, never over 15%. Most users are not pirates, and will not accept browser initiated ads or paying for a browser when firefox or ie is free. If you like Opera, maybe this is a good thing because it should be less of a target for hackers. But most of the world will never care about Opera because of the ads or the cost.

It's human, it was corrected. My browsers are Firefox #1 and Opera #2 and nothing #3.

I can't see getting upset about the issue of browsers. I'm on permanent diability with a severe , chronic mental disorder accompanied with brain damage. Which of these issues do you think has real impact on my life? I could give a damn about which browser I use.

I love OPERA! Firefox is sluggish and garbage.

yeah -- right. Mozilla and Firefox are on pace to create to huge Internet blackhole with all the vulnerabilities they are introducing.

i must uphold operas comments for clarifying all

lol this is funny - or sad... I'm not sure which, but there's an article printed to explain a misunderstanding, and then everyone comments their misunderstanding and starts the fight all over again.

...ok I've made up my mind. This is freak'n hillarious

Asa screwed up again. He keeps bashing other browsers instead of focusing on his own like Opera does. Do you ever see Opera lying and spreading FUD about Firefox? Thought not.

CNET had a nice summary of this farce:

"Dozens of flaming messages later, Opera issued a retraction and Dotzler was left defending his professionalism."

http://news.com.com/2061-10795_3-5737433.html

Yea, Opera leaves their users to bash other browsers apparently...

Opera can't help it if its users bash other browsers. However, when a Mozilla employee bashes his competitors... It does not reflect well on the organization.

Granted... That's true. And I will agree that Dotzler definitely crossed the line.

Sorry, duplicate...

The point that was being made by Asa Dotzler was simply false advertising on Opera's part. I dont know why these things have to devolve into which is the best broswer. Firefox received the award for best best browser program for 2005 from PC World. Opera was mentioned as a world class product but was listed as #88 overall and was rated lower than the IE clone Maxthon. Opera then claimed that they won the award and later had to retract the claim, their web site now says simply that it was mentioned as world class by PC World. Whether you all think Opera is best or Firefox is best isnt germaine. PC World thought Firefox was and Opera lied about how it was rated unles you believe they cant tell the difference between #1 and #88.......

Opera did not lie, for crying out loud!

Asa lied about Opera lying.

Asa knew that there was room for misinterpretation when he blogged about it. Why did he automatically assume that Opera was lying, when clearly there was room for making mistakes? Because it was a cheap shot, and he couldn't resist the temptation.

In other words: He accused Opera of lying knowing full well that it was probably just a misunderstanding. Unlike Opera, Asa's blog post was not a misunderstanding, because his posting history about Opera clearly shows that he takes any opportunity to put it down.

So if Asa claimed that Opera lied, but he did the same thing himself, what does that make Asa?

By the way, Maxthon is a browser plug-in/shell, not a standalone browser.

You are wrong, I visited the Opera home bage before they retracted their little ad. It clearly stated that Opera had been awarded by PC World for being THE world class browser for 2005. I stand by the statement I made about them not knowing the difference between #1 and #88, they made an editorial decision to state their browser was awarded something it wasnt.

But as they put it, they were #1 in the "Web Browsers" category. Upon further inspection, they were the only one in the "Web Browsers" category. Hey, wth is FF/Maxthon doing in "Internet Browsers"? :P

Lol, I don't actually know what category FF or Maxthon was in, but I trust Opera not to be lying...even though I don't use their browser.

Actually I remember seeing the article somewhere online, and Opera DID lie. But that's not the piont. You are nitpicking again...

Besides.... tell me what this page says...
http://www.pcworld.com/r...cle/0,aid,120763,00.asp

On page http://www.pcworld.com/r...cle/0,aid,120763,00.asp and http://www.pcworld.com/r...aid,120763,pg,12,00.asp Firefox is clearly marked as being a "WEB BROWSER". It got #1 in the 100 best products of 2005. On the last page mentioned Opera (also marked as being a "WEB BROWSER") got #88 in the best products of 2005. In the "WEB" page (http://www.pcworld.com/r...,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp) it is true that Opera is listed but Firefox not, probably an oversight on PC World's behalf I imagine. However at no point on that last listed page is Opera referred to at any point as winning "PC World's 2005 World Class Award for best Web browser". It simply is not. It is hard to see how you can as a result of a misunderstanding extrapolate the title "PC World's 2005 World Class Award for best Web browser", indeed it would seem to me to be improbable in the extreme that one could extrapolate such a title. Who ever looked wrote that Opera had won the non-existent title must of known that Firefox was ranked #1 out the 100 best products of 2005. I'm sure if Opera had won #1 the would of bragged about it (and rightly so in such an alternate universe). Working for Opera they would of known that Firefox is a "Web Browser" (if they didn't gleam that from the ranking page). They would of surely guessed that it was an oversight on PC World's behalf that Firefox wasn't also listed on the "Web" page (as Opera and Maxthon is). So the argument that it was a misunderstanding looks to me to be weak in the extreme.

"Opera DID lie"

Lying is saying something untrue on purpose.

Opera did not lie.

Also, notice how Opera is the only browser in the web category:

http://www.pcworld.com/r...,aid,120763,pg,6,00.asp

In other words: Plenty of room for misinterpretation.

Asa was out of line by jumping to conclusion and accusing Opera of lying.

Your post is extremely difficult to read, AlanS2001... But I'll say this:

As you yourself have demostrated there is clearly room for misinterpretation. Also, it would seem that Opera has been in touch with PC world, so maybe Opera got told something everyone else didn't?

"So the argument that it was a misunderstanding looks to me to be weak in the extreme."

Maybe if you are a Mozilla employee who automatically assumes the worst? :(

For everyone else there's something called "mistakes", and humans make them.

Opera is an amazing software that I would trump over any other browser, just superb browser.

Too bad it ain't free. Opera is really not worth any $$$ with FireFox out there.

I have used Opera on and off for a number of years and recently tried Firefox (and Netscape 8). I eventually decided to dump both Firefox and Netscape 8(it's bloated)in favor of Opera. One area Opera excels is in form filling on web pages. Both Firefox and Netscape choke on remembered forms at some web sites.
Firefox is free. Opera costs (or is adaware - oh scary). I suspect that is why more people prefer Firefox. Why use either, perhaps because of IE security woes and it's also old - people like change

I'm still trying to come to terms with what is supposed to be so wonderful with Firefox. I downloaded and ran it for a few weeks (adding to the download figure!) and found it to be pretty ordinary and offering nothing that I haven't had available to me for years by running Opera. Opera 8 is just so far ahead in features, flexibility and security, that I find any comparisons with Firefox quite meaningless. I see Firefox as being grossly over-extended! But to all you Firefox lovers, if that's what you like, stick to it! After all, I'm still running Windows!

You may like Opera more because as you said you have used it for some time. The truth is FF is more used all over the world than Opera because it is a very good web browser that although seems quite featureless becomes very featurefull once you have installed some of the great extensions up for offer. But he just like you said, if you love it, stick to it ( except for the IE users :D )

"Opera 8 is just so far ahead in features, flexibility and security, that I find any comparisons with Firefox quite meaningless."

I hate vague comments like this. It's just a general opinion with no specifics to back the argument and it could be applied to anything. To make a better use of the criticism, one should point out what features and flexibility Firefox is missing. One of the great things about Firefox is with the hundreds upon hundreds of extensions you can basically turn the browser into whatever you want. If it is missing features, suggesting what you'd like to see to some volunteer Mozilla developers (or better yet, create an extension yourself) would eliminate that complaint altogether. It's a flawed arguemnt to say Firefox is missing any features as by it's definition you can make Firefox play by whatever rules you choose. If Firefox is missing something you want, it's probably not the programs fault but your own lack of initiative or imagination.

Vague?

- Features: Opera has loads of time-saving features out of the box instead of relying on buggy third party extensions.
- Flexibility: No need to restart to add toolbars, skins, themes, etc. User JavaScript, user CSS, detailed control over everything without having to hack the source code.
- Security: Opera 8 has had ZERO vulnerabilities, and it has ZERO unpatched vunlerabilities. Firefox has had several SERIOUS security problems, and there are several unpatched vulnerabilities as well, according to Secunia.

1. As far as features go, yes, of course the more extensions that are in firefox the buggier it gets. They have a basic browser, and leave it up the user to choose what extensions they want. The more features that any program has, the more that can go wrong with it. So I actually praise Mozilla Foundation for making this move. They only focus on the very basic features, and leave more advanced features to the extension writers to write and maintain.

2. As far as your "point" on flexibility, Why would you need to install a toolbar at all? Even if you do, it is an extension. Which brings us back to the point made above. Skins and themes are the same thing, and Why should it matter whether or not a user has to restart to enable a theme. Still I can see this being a useful feature. And you do know that you can edit user chrome in Firefox right?

3. EVERY browser has it's bugs, and EVERY browser has it's vulnerabilities. I'm sure time will show that Opera 8 will not be the "god of all browsers" like you are trying to prove.

Therefore, I don't see any actual point made, plings. A browser is a browser. You say potato I say potAto. Who cares? You continue to use Opera, I'll continue to use Firefox. Every person is different.

How much did you pay for Opera?

Want to know how much I paid for Firefox? Here..let me tell you...I PAID NOTHING! AND I LOVE IT! :)

To say Opera has had ZERO vulnerabilities is absurd. Just because non have been brought to public light it does not mean they do not exist. There may very well be people who know of vulnerabilities in Opera who have not made such knowledge public. To me the real test of security is in how long it takes for the vulnerability to be patched once it is discovered (which in the case of Firefox is a very short period of time).

Re jab1981's comments:

I don't believe the evaluation of any software package should depend on obtaining extensions to do what one reasonably might expect it to do in the first place. Why should the onus be on the user to locate and download extensions, or worse as suggested, initiate development of new ones to get features already provided as standard by another program you already have up and running on your computer? And hundred and hundreds of them!!! This attitude doesn't apply to other goods and services, and rightly so.

I could evaluate lots of detailed comparison points between Opera and Firefox, with or without its ever more numerous extensions, but for what purpose? Of course I expressed a general opinion in my preference for Opera. What is the problem with that? We all have, and surely are entitled to have, our general opinions aren't we, without being asked to provide pages of detailed point-by-point comparative analyses in support of our preference. I am not on the payroll of a computer magazine!

Let me also make another point clear. I don't rubbish Firefox. I think overall it is an OK browser, but not a wonderful one. I am simply saying that Opera comes far closer to my personal definition of a good browser than Firefox does. It's as simple as that!

I could write my own Firefox extensions if I wanted to, but why on earth should I? I have got better things to do in my spare time.

I support strongly the development of good open source software. I have downloaded quite a few beauties that I use regularly. But I also believe that open source developers and their supporters have to realise that free, and therefore quite often popular software, is not necessarily synonymous with superior quality.

Finally, any discussions that keep Firefox and Opera in the spotlight can only benefit both. So let's just all sit sit back and enjoy the operatic fireworks!

Of course, every product has vulnerabilities. And you are absolutely right that the real test of security is in how long it takes for the vulnerability to be patched once it's discovered.

Since Opera 8 currently has none (zero) Secunia reported vulnerabilities, let me bring to your attention the one and only Secunia report about Opera that has ever been labeled "extremely critical". This vulnerability affected Opera 6 and 7.

http://secunia.com/advisories/8272/

Please notice the release date and the Changelog.

You might also be interested in noticing that none of Secunia's vulnerabilities reported in any version of Opera currently remain unpatched.
To compare, Firefox 1.x currently has 28% unpatched vulnerabilities, and Internet Explorer 6 has 31%.

People who want to read more about the reactions of Opera users can do so at Opera Blogs: http://my.opera.com/community/takeaction/blogs/

I'd like to think we were remarkably level-headed about it (well, most of us), considering the vehemence of his (not inaccurate) accusations.

And by the way, the large majority of Opera users are Windows users - which is actually probably the case as well for FireVole. They only have comparatively more Linux users to IE because IE doesn't (really) run on Linux :P.

Opera: Speed, Security, Simplicity

After using just about every single browser for Windows there is I have arrived at this very simple conclusion. Each broswer brings with it a very unique toolset or set of functions which can be considered a pro or a con. ALL browsers have some sort of security issue/s to deal with. It all depends on what the 'end-user' is looking for. I myself used IE and Netscape for years... Now I am using Firefox & Opera. I Keep IE around so I can download templates, updates and whatnot from Microsoft's website.

Opera v/s Firefox...
As far as whose better, take a look at the numbers:
IE:
Jan 2005 - 69.7%
Jun 2005 - 63.5% (-) decrease

Firefox:
Jan 2005 - 19.3%
Jun 2005 - 26.3% (+) increase

Opera:
Jan 2005 - 2.1%
Jun 2005 - 1.8% (-) decrease

Those numbers don't lie. If you want to see for yourself check them out at: www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
Other sites show different stats but you can still see the same thing among them all. IE is slipping when it comes to dominance. After all is said and done these browser wars fuel improvements among all browsers... So whichever you use be proud knowing your a part of the fight... lol

IE may be slipping but it's still pretty clear as to who the winner is...

I see no winner. IE is dropping FF is still behind and Opera is a grain of sand. There is no winner. That is like saying that AIDS is winning the battle for a cure just because it still holds the ground but the fact is it is losing.

I find good things about both Opera and FF and still have a healthy disdain for IE. I, too, use both.

"Those numbers don't lie. If you want to see for yourself check them out at: www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp";

Actually, stats DO lie:

http://virtuelvis.com/ar.../05/statistics-nonsense

Also, W3SCHOOLS is not representative of the web in general.

If a grain of sand is 2%, then a grain of sand is 10 million.

The current winner is IE--the statistics are pretty clear I thought...

IE is no winner. They are losing users everyday.

10 million out of 6 billion, yeah that is a grain of sand.

Windows (all Flavours):
Jan 2005 - 90.4
Jun 2005 - 88.3

Mac:
Jan 2005 - 2.8
Jun 2005 - 3.0

Linux:
Jan 2005 - 3.2
Jun 2005 - 3.5

Meeeeeow! It's sad to see people fighting for tablescraps.

As long as these other browsers are less corporate-friendly than IE, they will be the browsers of hobbyists and prosumers. I really don't understand why people bother with browsers on Windows. Go develop a kickass linux browser and you have a competitive advantage. Companies using linux might see more end-to-end solution with a good corporate browser. Until then, enjoy the IE bendover.

Firefox and opera are linux browsers, primarly created for linux, however there are also windows versions of the browser. And hate to tell yah, but Firefox is more corporate friendly than IE where they don't have to watch out for ActiveX and other maticulous things that can happen with IE. There are alot of websites that don't conform to the standards that all the other browsers in the universe conform to, however most developers decide that it's better to use shotty code and release something that just works for IE. However, in light of FireFox that whole mindset is changing, and I see more and more that IE is being left in the dark with more websites.

Linux browsers? WTF are you talking about.

Firefox and Opera are multi-platform browsers.

IE is poo.

Then IE is a Mac browser... (IE for Mac)

IE mac is long dead. It was kill by MS in 2003, and is no longer given with MacOS-X Tiger...

"Firefox and opera are linux browsers, primarly created for linux"

Wrong. Opera started out on Windows, and that's still where things happen first.

Eh ... sounds like someone is hating.

FF and Opera are pretty much the same FF just dont have stupid extentions included, you could possible download them if you wanted "voice commands" but Opera will fail cause IE and FF are free and no one in there right mind should be a browser

Why not buy your browser?

I bet you bought (or pirated) Office, but you don't use OpenOffice. This is contradictory behaviour expecially since office is becoming increasingly poor and bloated with nothing really new - almost like IE6.

Opera is better than firefox and well worth the price, IMO.

I Wouldn't Buy office if i had to(and i didnt copy it), And I've used OpenOffice and its just the same as MS office, There is Nothing Revelutionary about any software these days Opera and FireFox are the Same products just looking differnt, Both have Flaws and Both have Perks same with everything, so why would i waste my money on somthing that another product can do freely, some one with enough brain power to Pirate something can figuer that out