RSSEurope: Microsoft's IE move gives Windows users no choice
By Scott M. Fulton, III | Published June 12, 2009, 10:08 AM
The initial response from the European Commission this morning, to the news that Microsoft has decided to remove Internet Explorer from Windows 7 for European customers, is that it leaves customers no option or choice with regard to which Web browser they should install.
"The development of new online services makes Web browsers an increasingly important tool for businesses and consumers, and a lack of real consumer choice on this market would undermine innovation," reads this morning's statement from Brussels.
Citing its January Statement of Objections which accused Microsoft of inciting harm to consumers and to the Web browser market by offering them no choice for Web browsers, the Commission's contention this morning is that Microsoft's decision does not provide a remedy for that infraction: essentially, that giving the consumer no Web browser still gives that consumer no choice.
"The SO [Statement of Objections] sets out the preliminary view that, should the Commission conclude that Microsoft's conduct was abusive, any remedy would need to restore a level-playing field and enable genuine consumer choice between Internet Explorer and third-party Web browsers, in order to bring the infringement effectively to an end," reads this morning's statement. "A potential remedy to these concerns, which the Commission considered in the SO and which would not require Microsoft to provide Windows to end users without a browser, would be to allow consumers to choose from different Web browsers presented to them through a 'ballot screen' in Windows."
With that statement, we now know what the EC's intentions are: It would like for Microsoft to provide a way for users to install any of multiple Web browsers, presumably including Mozilla Firefox, Apple Safari, Google Chrome, and Opera.
In Deputy General Counsel Dave Heiner's statement yesterday, he explicitly stated that the final decision over what choice or choices Microsoft ends up offering will not be made by Microsoft alone, tossing the ball into the EC's court.
"Our decision to only offer IE separately from Windows 7 in Europe cannot, of course, preclude the possibility of alternative approaches emerging through Commission processes," Heiner wrote. "Other alternatives have been raised in the Commission proceedings, including possible inclusion in Windows 7 of alternative browsers or a 'ballot screen' that would prompt users to choose from a specific set of Web browsers. Important details of these approaches would need to be worked out in coordination with the Commission, since they would have a significant impact on computer manufacturers and Web browser vendors, whose interests may differ. Given the complexity and competing interests, we don't believe it would be best for us to adopt such an approach unilaterally."
In a blog post yesterday, Mozilla Foundation CEO Mitchell Baker voiced her support for a "ballot screen," although she conceded that such a screen would have to be presented carefully so as not to confuse the end user about the choices of Web browsers available.
"The lack of knowledge of this choice and the effect it can make is of course a key problem with today's competitive structure, and is closely related to the integration of IE into Windows," Baker wrote. "Enabling more people to understand the choices available to them can have some very beneficial results. It is also complex and this aspect of a remedy must be very carefully crafted. The chances for creating a difficult user experience or unintended consequences are real, and so there is a level of concern about the details of what a remedy would look like among even those who support the principle. This mirrors both the challenge and the opportunity of working to provide greater user choice. The reality of the challenges reflects the great importance of the goal."
Meanwhile, in a telephone interview with Computerworld, Opera CEO John von Tetzchner accused Microsoft of trying to replicate the circumstances of Windows XP N, the version it agreed to distribute to Europe without Windows Media Player -- a version which ended up selling dramatically poorly. If no one buys Windows 7 E for similar reasons, von Tetzchner alleges, Microsoft could win again.
"If Microsoft got its way there would be no ballot screen, just a version of Windows that has no browser at all -- just like the edition N of Windows that resulted from the earlier European antitrust case," von Tetzchner told Computerworld.
This morning's statement from the EC responded a little less coldly to the notion that computer manufacturers and OEMs would be given the choice of whether to install Internet Explorer or not on their systems (they can already install other browsers, the new choice concerns whether to not install IE8). However, the Commission left itself an open back door to a future complaint by openly suggesting that it should not draw any conclusions about this decision too soon, lest this actually be a trap set by Microsoft to lure OEMs into some unforeseen, but unilaterally beneficial, set of circumstances.
"Were the Commission to conclude that Microsoft's behavior has been abusive, it would have to consider whether this proposal would in itself be sufficient to create genuine consumer choice on the Web browser market," the EC statement reads. "The Commission would inter alia take into account the long standing nature of Microsoft's conduct. It would also have to consider whether this initial step of technical separation of IE from Windows could be negated by other actions by Microsoft."
While late to this discussion, sometimes it is better to wait and read the responses to get a feel.
In his own unique way PC has hit upon the real problem with the Ec and EU in regards to Ms both in the current Browsers issue and going back to the WMP sissy fight. whatever word you want to use, embedded, bundled, add-on, the real issue is does Ms putting in a Browser, like Apple, interfere with one's ability to use any other browser. This same point applies to the WMP fight. Just because Company A puts in a WMP or Browser is not the issue. What is the issue is does the consumer, at any level, have the ability to use alternative choices and the answer in the case of MS is yes.
So we come to what is really behind the EC or EU constant harassment of MS? Are they really going to base their argument on what amounts to saying the Europeans are too dumb to figure out they do have a choice in both areas. If you are seeking re-election, I suspect that wouldn't be a very good platform to run on.
Now in the browser issue, one could look at the fact that Opera CEO John von Tetzchner is leading the charge for "fairness". Gee, I wonder if his motives are all that pure since Opera is not exactly burning up the rubber towards WOLRD DOMINATION.
So, the question on any OS is simple- Do you have choice and, with Windows, you do. One example- during the WMP sissy fight, I had an advanced audio card and 5.1 surround sound. The Audio card came with a media player and because of one feature set that it had which WMP didn't have, I used the audio card player and guess what? No problems.
Choice. If the Europeans need to be educated on this simple notion when it comes to the internet then the responsibility lies with the EC or EU and not MS because MS does give choice. It is not MS's responsibility to give free ads to competitors or be a cash cow for the EU.
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|"Choice. If the Europeans need to be educated on this simple notion when it comes to the internet then the responsibility lies with the EC or EU and not MS because MS does give choice. It is not MS's responsibility to give free ads to competitors or be a cash cow for the EU."
Logical, sensible, reasonable, and practical.
*laughing*
Are you new here??
Seriously, agreed 100%. Since they apparently want to refuse to allow the OS to be shipped sans browser (as long as it isn't IE?) it isn't *really* a bundling issue.
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|LMAO
Here we go, wrap it up in 'the flag' and you can do anything.
Even though 'American' has almost zero meaning to Microsoft as an international corporation.
They can get away with any old anti-competitive practice or monolopy abuse because their American 'support' wilingly blind themselves to any practice they use - even if it is ultimately against their own interests.
Laughable stuff as always guys, remember to smile as they shaft you, eh? You're supporting your own.
LOL
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|Funny guy. You're the only one trying to make this an us vs. them issue.
Apparently, you have nothing better to contribute?
EC's problem: IE is bundled with the OS.
This is the same problem they had with WMP. The solution for that....was to unbundle WMP.
What's changed?
...or is it *not* a bundling issue to begin with? Perhaps the EC first needs to figure out what the real problem they have with MSFT is...
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|This is idiocy at it's finest. The EC should just give up. It's obscene to ask a manufacturer to *advertise* for another company. It's like asking GM to advertise Ford or Kia when you come in to look at buying a new car.
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|It might be a point that others have made (I can't be bothered to read the entire thread) but I see this as a 'chicken and egg' scenario in that if you haven't got a browser how do you find out about one and download it.
Fine there could be a static ballot option as some have said from which you choose a browser to have setup and configured but I don't believe the EU would be happy with that either as most people would choose IE and prove that they've been wasting their time on this case all along.
From a systems builder perspective OEMs and businesses build images\systems with all the software and end-user would need in which case they too are removing the users choice. Businesses for one will almost always choose IE as it has the biggest market share, is the most tested from a compatibility standpoint and for many other reasons.
When it comes to a static ballot choice of which browser to choose it would open up a can of worms unless it was cleverly updated with new browsers otherwise Microsoft could argue that in using such a system could leave them open to an anti-competition suit once again for not listing the latest new browser.
It's all bull and the EU should just stop trying to make money out their long laboured and well past it's sell-by-date argument which I don't think even they understand anymore having lost the plot years ago!
Cheers,
Dizzy (an EU resident)
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|DEL
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|This is a dead topic. Microsoft has stated what it's willing to do, whether it's 'fair or not' it manages the issue of bundling.
Why does Microsoft have a responsibility to inform the consumer of alternatives in software? what's next, promotion for OSX on the Windows 7 box?
How many companies promote other competing products?? it's ridiculous.
I would so love to see microsoft just pull everything out of the EU. I realise from a provide perspective it's not good, but i'm just so tired as is everyone of this whole thing.
How many years is this now? give it up please!
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|The EU has fully turned into the grumpy old man yelling at the kids on the lawn.
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|Up until now I have watched semi-silently as the EU poked and prodded the behemoth known as microsoft and sometimes cheered. Now i see this and i am saying to myself, WTF.. ok, EU, time to get a clue on what YOU ACTUALLY want and just say, this is what we want. What's next, MS gives EU the "Browser Ballot" and they complain that IE is on there? lol come on.. get real.
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|SO NOW WHAT EU?
YOU ASKED FOR THIS SPECIFICALLY, NOW YOU DON'T WANT IT?
Where you not smart enough to watch Sun and other companies like Wordperfect and Lotus set themselves on fire after MS bent over backwards not only trying to help them, but even doing the work for them.
Why would you get any special treatment, especially when your legal fees and 'special' versions alone are dipping into MS's pockets for all those nice specific localized versions they make for every crazy region of every language.
You already did this with Media Player, and you either POed customers and caused OEMs to get slapped around in Europe, and in effect you just opened the market for another predator to come in and take it over.
So instead of a Media Player/OS lock in, you are stuck with iTunes and a device/software/STORE lock in...
Brilliant move, kick out the company that actually leaves the media player open for any hardware or any store to run on it seamless for the ease of users and let a single company take over the media, device, and digital store market instead... Geesh.
Open Ballot? I know this didn't come from the EU, but is this person clinically retarded? There are literally 100s of browsers, who is going to decide what gets on the options screen? Our company even has an old browser engine we developed, I should put a team on it, and then sue Mozilla, Firefox, Opera and Google for not giving me equal space on the 'Ballot'...
Holy legal nightmare, and Holy Tech support nightmare for MS. What if the Mozilla installer is messed up one day when people get their new computer? Microsoft gets the calls, not Mozilla. Is it really fair to make Microsoft pay for other software's crap support too now?
Seriously, nothing is going to make them happy until a European Browser is the only option consumers get it seems.
The EU arguments against MS have gone from crazy to totally flipping insane.
And ironically, MS is a 'big business' in Europe, employing a lot of people in Europe, it is not as if they are just a one country trick pony taking control of the EU's computer industry.
Europe has always done their own thing, and in the last 15 years, this has migrated to being like the rest of the World and using Windows. (Primarily for the extensive language support Windows now offers since XP with NT core became the mainstream consumer/business OS offered by Microsoft.)
In the late 80s early 90s Europe ran on Atari STs, Amigas, OS/2, etc. IBM compatibles were not a big thing there, yet now that the people are still choosing what they want, the EU wants to tell the people of the EU they are wrong?
Has the EU gotten so big and stupid they have stopped thinking about the developing countries of Europe that are new to the EU? What do they think this type of crap is going to do to them?
Geesh...
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|MS should go with that "ballot screen" idea but they shouldn't include Opera, FF, Chrome or Safari. They should include Avant, Crazy Browser, Maxthon, Lunascape5 Genesis, Slim Browser, and TheWorld Browser.
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|Don't forget OffbyOne and Lynx.
Heh...
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|Lynx FTW!
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|The only valid EU solution should be that the EU will now be the computer retailer of choice for all of their citizens. In that way they can make all of the correct decisions regarding hardware and software any citizen will ever need. The all knowing EU will decide what they their citizens are allowed to purchase and what their needs and wants are.
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|Europe - you got what you wanted - now deal with it. Maybe the EC should pay Microsoft and all the other providers to make a cd with a ballot screen. Enough already.
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|Personally, i think the whole issue regarding things such as what browser to have installed an such is silly.
first, the users who'd be able to make that choice at install time are people who'd really know about alternate browsers anyway as they're capable of installing the OS in the first place.
secondly, i don't think its up to microsoft to provide a means to install a browser of the users choice. If i wrote a browser and decided microsoft should allow me to install it as 'choice' when i install windows what then?
remember, back before win95 we didn't even have a browser installed, before that you didn't even have networking enabled. it wasn't hard to pop a cd in to install a browser. and even with windows 95 where you do have a browser, its so out of date you can't get a browser home page to load thus enabling you to download a browser anyway. FTP is the way to go, but again that'll be for more advanced users who'll know how to install and OS anyway.
What needs to be happening, is the EU/EC needs to say OK. Windows 7 without a browser, without a media player, bare basics and then have OEM retailers, such as Dell be forced to offer installation options of 3 different browser types, 3 different media players for the user to chose from. THAT is the way the common user will get a choice and that is how most people will get their computer.
Microsoft may need to do something, but its certainly not up to microsoft to provide other companies software in their installs. It may need to make sure people installing windows at OEM level offer its users a choice at preinstall time (as they are able to do now in europe)
So, is it microsoft or the OEM retailers who need to offer the users a choice now? microsoft has handed the work over to the companies who build and *INSTALL* the OS (making choices and clicking the boxes) before its given to the user.
People like Dell already offer a choice of OS, Windows XP/Vista even Linux.. and they also let you pick what hardware you want, 250gb, 350, 500gb harddisk etc. So there shouldn't be any problem picking Windows 7, then chosing browser type, Internet Explorer or Opera installed by default.
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|This whole EU vs. MS circus is getting rather idiotic. Microsoft has never forced anyone to use IE. However, I do agree that you should be given a choice whether to install IE or not when you're installing Windows. That's as far as your "choice" should go. Trying to force Microsoft to give you a list of all the competing browsers for you to choose from is ridiculous. I mean, it's not like IE costs you anything. It comes free and if you don't like it, you can use whatever browser you choose. It's not Microsoft's fault if someone is too damn stupid to install an alternate browser.
This whole EU fiasco is turning into a case of, if a company is too successful, we must find fault, punish it, and treat it as a cash cow by imposing various fines, all the while pretending we're doing it for the benefit of the public.
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|Microsoft should pull out of the EU entirely and let them use Unix and other OS'. Obviously the EU uses MS products or otherwise they wouldn't complain about every move MS makes. Also, apparently the EU thinks that users don't know how to install other browsers. Tell that to the millions who use Firefox, Chrome, and Safari. Talk about a screwed up government. The US gov't has its share of problems but I still love it compared to living anywhere else.
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|The EU wants Microsoft to offer a list of web browsers in Windows? Are they INSANE? Why would any operating system manufacturer want to do this? It would confuse the hell out of almost everyone except advanced computer users.
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|Are they a bunch of retards over in Europe. They b**** about IE. than complain about it when its not installed. Go to your local library, download whatever browser you want to a flash drive, take it home and install.
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|If I were an independent software company trying to create a better browser out there, I would be crying foul at this decision by the EU commission, because I would be coming into the market at a disadvantage. The choices would be made ahead of time for the consumer as to which are the browsers they can have, and obviously, one with no initial market share would not be allowed to participate.
I think this decision just changes the playing field from a perceived monopoly (which by the continuous gains of firefox, I would say it is not one anymore), to an oligopoly with 4 players. This is not necessarily conducive to innovation either.
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|I'm not against IE comming with windows as default.
The EU commission could force the OEM's to deliver an alternative browser.
It will go fast once they get through that those things can be advertised as features.
Get a [name of some vendor here] computer, now with windows, IE and Firefox (new feature).
More about this further below, but first:
@Macabre saying MS making valued software a free addition to their OS
valued software? IE? Are you stupid or a MS troll?!
IE is destroying the web standards as much as it can!
IE is crap just as much as WMP and a all those other programs are!
If MS has the slightest intention of giving valued software with their OS,
they wouldn't have fired one of their people-trainee who is now working on Paint.NET!
Not to mention not showing (MS is refusing to implement that on purpose)
my beautiful illustrations and other people's illustrations made in svg!
Most people are to dumb to realize that it's IE not displaying the web properly,
it's hard for them because they have paid for this machine and think that IE and their computer is one and the same. Education IS very important. More important than anything else.
(Famous Common Words: Why doesn't this software that I bought work good? Why does it crash? Oh well because I bought and spent money on it, it must be good. So this must be the work of viruses, yes that must it be.
Give me a break retard, throwing money at it won't assure that there will be no bugs in it. )
People just don't like the idea that the stuff that they have bought is junk.
That is why they are so stupidly reluctant to wanting to believe IE is bad.
They also think IE is connected in some way to the chips of their computer. Same for Windows.
Please educate, it is needed.
First and off al the EU commission is taking on to IE because it's breaking the web!
It does not respect standards, creates it's own standards instead with all kinds of MS crap.
MS does want this to happen.
So everybody makes websites, not for the web, but for IE.
Including Adobe Dreamweaver and other programs follow the crappy IE standards instead of the internet web standards from the w3c where Microsoft is actually a member of.
And now get IE with windows and only windows, and you have yourself a nice monopoly.
Of course MS is trying to create the windows something without browser=IE and only IE.
The Commission should make a legal condition: any OEM that redistributes that version of windows must provide an alternative browser with it, any electronic form will do.
OEM's can use this as a selling point: "look we sell Windows with Firefox already installed".
A lot of people use Firefox nowadays and think, what have we here? A windows version at this OEM with my favourite browser Firefox.
This is handy for me, let's buy this version of Windows with this OEM.
And there you have it, everybody wins except MS vendor monopolism.
Opera is also a very good product. Just as Firefox and Chrome.
All three of them have filled lawsuits against IE.
The EU commission is filled with idiots.
Thinking MS will not try to bend the rules, what do you think people?
wake up EU politicians, this is not charity or teletubieland,
it's raw and harsh business you're dealing with.
You are going to have to force them, MS is NOT going to corporate with you!
Man I'm so embarrassed of being a member of the EU.
They shouldn't offer MS to show the alternatives.
It's doomed to fail and MS just can't have it.
Force the OEM's to show that there is a choice,
they will be interested the moment they know that they know they can advertise those stuff as a feature.
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|so... if I buy Windows 7 for my own generic computer, and it doesn't come with IE, how the he** am I gonna download browser of my choice??? in any case, bundling IE with Windows never means we have to use it!
what's EU gonna restrict next? choice of OS when buying a computer? I'll take a Dell computer with MacOS please!
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|The sales guy on the till says "Sir, don't forget your free browser CD", pointing at the large box of CDs on the counter.
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|What is with the European Commission anyways? Do they know what they want Microsoft to do. First, they tell them if they bundle IE8 with Windows, that limits competition. Now, Microsoft says they will comply and take IE8 out of Windows 7. Now the EC is saying that leaves users with no choice. Please make up your mind, EC.
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|Kinda strange why MS acts this way. They offer a choice in IE what search provider to use (although IMO IE8's search provider choice screen is as confusing as you could possibly make it.) so why not just have a folder with a UI friendly FTP link to every browser. The benefit to this is your OS stays secure on first launch with the latest supported browser. You'd think MS would want this.
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|You'd think the decision for one bundling case (WMP) would apply to others (IE) as well. :)
But then, the EC makes up the rules as they go along, so how can *anyone* know what the EC wants...?
They sure as hell don't seem to.
I mean seriously... IMO, MSFT shouldn't be forced to advertise competing products (which your suggestion falls under). If the problem is bundling, the solution is to unbundle. No-one will buy it...just like with Windows XP-N, and we could all move on.
Apparently...the problem *isn't* bundling...
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|to the dimwits who fail to see what use a downloadable browser (or ballot screen) would be when you don't have a browser -- YOU HAVE A BROWSER ON YOUR EXISTING MACHINE WHEN YOU DOWNLOAD IT TO DISK, THEN YOU UPGRADE YOUR EXISTING MACHINE TO WINDOWS 7 AND INSTALL IT.
if you're not too dimwitted and you're planning to build your own machine from parts, then you probably already know what to do.
EU integrators could install any browser to customer spec. or, the EC could force opera to compile a ballot screen, force integrators to install it instead of a browser, and force all EU-based ISPs to offer the ballot screen for download. If you don't think you can download a ballot screen without a browser, see paragraph 1.
it's a cryin' shame that tangible consumer choices (which aim to 'delight' and 'exceed expectations') must now be centrally planned on behalf of the proletariat by the EC politburo.
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|doesn't work for preinstalled OSs nor empy hard drives. next.
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|I am Greek, which means member of EU, which gives me the right to ask all EU bureaucrats:
are you joking ??????????????
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|Let's separate the points and make them clearer.
1) First: one thing is the EU bullying, but besides that, MS has taken a decidedly bad decision for themselves. How are the average Mamma and Joe gonna browse the internet or get a browser after this when they get Windows 7? Oh gosh i see problems ahead!
2) Now the right way to think this matter is:
"what would the 'most adequate' or 'less damaging' solution be?" This is a matter where probably no solution would be a perfect 100% convenient one that would please everyone.
So again, the point is MAKING THE USER CONSCIOUS OF CHOICE and GIVING HIM THE POSSIBILITY OF CHOICE. After choosing, he can disable IE (and the same for WindowsMediaPlayer) if he likes. Also notice that Microsoft never denies the possibility of choice in first place.
-Couldn't MS then make a simple disclaimer telling the user that he is not enclosed to IE and free to choose among other alternatives if he decides he is not happy with IE? maybe even suggest to browse the web for them-
Nothing that a clearly presented disclaimer wouldn't solve.
That's the point of it. Letting the user know that he's not enclosed to IE (or any of MS' default programs, for that matter) and he can choose any other thing if he pleases. This would also save MS from to getting in the muddy waters of making themselves a decision for what alteratives the user can get. It's simply up to the user to get into that matter if he minds to.
--reply thoughtfully please--
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|*shrug*
The WMP solution? Create WIndows-N.
Now replace WMP with IE.
Suddenly...there's a problem.
Microsoft did nothing more or less than they did in the WMP case. The problem, is that the EC *wants* something it has no right to demand. If the problem is bundling, unbundle.
Since the solution to the "bundle" problem was incorrect, the problem, effectively, *wasn't* bundling. IMO, the problem they have is "choice'. They cannot mandate Microsoft effectively "advertise" other, competing products, so they education of the users in the choices they *do* have would seem, IMO, to fall squarely on the heads of the EC.
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|The whole issue is Bogus any way. People already have the choice as to what they want to use. You don't like IE you download and install something else. It's up to you what you use. I have 4 different web browsers installed on my computer. The EU just doesn't want IE to be the first thing that people see. But wait... Isn't it Microsoft Windows? Why shouldn't Microsoft allow it's own app to be the initial default. When the time comes that Opera and Google create their own operating systems they can set their browser as the initial default. I see no one complaining about Apple setting Safari as the default browser on the Mac. People are free, if they choose, to go out and get whatever other browser they want to use. Easy...
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|Not really. Average people don't know they have a choice and THAT is the problem. I agree with the last solution from the post above: make a disclamer that states "users are not enclosed to IE".
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|Oh good Lord - do they know they have a choice of Operating Systems? This is so ridiculous it's beyond belief. Go Microsoft - stick it up the EC's arse!!
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|Ignorance of the consumer is NOT MS's fault. If other browsers want to be noticed, then they should do what every other companies do when they want consumers to see them: ADVERTISE.
Another solution, would be to mail out free cds, just like AOL did back in the day.
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|"average users don't know they have a choice"
As proven by the rising market share of firefox and OSX....?
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|why can't they just offer some options during the install: 'Do you want Windows Media Player Installed?', 'Do you want Internet Explorer Installed?' etc etc etc. There done, if you didn't want it, it won't be installed. That would solve everyones b****ing. it's better than actually removing it off the disc. The ones that want it, have it, the ones that don't, just answer no!
back in the 3.11 and Win9x days you had choices of what components you wanted installed. Starting with WinXP they took that away, thus the rise of nLite.
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|i'm sorry bud, but simple and logical thinking is not the fashion these days.
you should take a side and start flaming.
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|Why not add, do you want a different Operating System? Why should Microsoft cater to every person and every product known to man? If you don't like the installed software, download something else or better yet, USE A DIFFERENT OPERATING SYSTEM.
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|I'm just stating that if MS added a option to it, that would end the issue. No one could b**** that they didn't do anything, they'd have their choice and the matters done. The real world can move on. Plus they wouldn't need to make 2 different builds of the OS just to cater to the EU.
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|That's a reasonable explanation - I guess I'm just frustrated it came up in the first place - the whole thing seems pretty ridiculous to me.
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|"I'm just stating that if MS added a option to it, that would end the issue."
One could only hope.. Of course, one might think that in a unfair product bundling case, unbundling the products would also end the issue. No such luck, I am afraid...
It seems the EC won't be happy until MS allows them to sell an "EC OEM" edition of Windows that they can modify to their heart's content. Of course, they'd force MSFT to support whatever BS they do to it...
The most amusing bit? OEM's *now* have the ability to install the OS with or without any components they want and can have all kinds of pop-up questions regarding what the user wants.
One would think that if that is what people seriously wanted...someone would market it and actually make some money doing it....right?
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|EU needs to CLOSE down Microsoft!! Giving stuff away for free is UN-AMERICAN!!!1
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|Your forgot your sarcasm disclaimer.
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|This does seem to be getting ridiculous for sure. I didn't like the idea of MS strapping IE into the system so you couldn't remove it, but I'm not against them including it with Windows. But I don't feel asking them to provide some immediate means of selecting another browser is right.
Many of you might remember the days when you got Windows 3.x or Windows 95 for the first time, which didn't include any web browser. Back then you had to either hit up your local BBS for downloads and get one, or head for the computer shop to either get a shareware browser or purchase a boxed commercial browser such as Sprynet Mosaic. Back then I don't recall people crying foul play, or demands that the OS author needed to include a browser.
Mac OS X includes it's Safari and doesn't give you any immediate option to select another web browser, nor does Linux which usually includes some web browser installed. Though Linux/Unix could get away with not including a web browser at all since most distributions offer a package system which allows the user to seek through a healthy list of software to download and install, including a good enough selection of web browsers, or has a large selection of additional software included on a secondary CD which usually contains a few different web browsers.
Besides... People do have a choice even before it gets to Internet Explorer. They have the choice to not even use Windows if they desire. They could get a Mac, or get a PC and get Linux/Unix instead of Windows. Ok, I know, that may not be as viable as I make it sound, but it does show that there is a choice long before we even get to the issues of whether MS should or should not include Internet Explorer.
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|I have no love for the EC at all. It shames me to even have to be associated with it. The entire thing is a complete farce and a huge waste of tax payer money.
Is Microsoft bundling a controller with the XBox 360 (or Sony, Nintendo for that matter) also anti competitive because it doesn't offer people the choice of buying from third party manufactures? Is Apple bundling Safari on the iPhone anti competitive because Opera Mini exists?
Really, where does stuff like this stop? All the companies making alternative browsers decided to enter the market place and take on IE knowing full well it was sold with Windows. No-one forced them to write for Windows! What if they hadn't? No anti trust case? It's utterly, utterly ludicrous.
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|LOL The EC grows more pathetic as the days go on.
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|Note to the EEC...make up your bloody minds for God's sake.
Score: 4
|no kidding
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|This has got to be the work of the French.
I'm not a fanboy of MS or IE, but come on people!
put an uninstall on IE, and be done with it
Score: 0
|So I'm a green computer user. I choose Opera and the entire installation takes a s**t. Who solves the problem? Opera support? MS support? The European idiots are creating an even bigger bucket of worms.
Score: 0
|Try Opera support first.
Score: -1
|And get raped by people bashing you for asking a "noob" question and not searching first. Yes. What a great idea! The forum for opera is absolutely horrible for support for a new user and the email support is about as helpful. I really wonder what the browser makers are thinking on this aspect. If the user is going to be installing a new browser, then there had better be an EASY support system in place for the users to get the help they need. Otherwise, I can see best buy's geek squad charging 75 dollars an issue to change one setting in about:config for firefox or the ini files for opera.
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|The EU commission asked that MS not tie IE into their Windows OS. It said nothing about giving users a selected list of alternatives. Only later did the EU propose this method, but again a preselected list is forced product placement of competitors products and would only really replace a monopoly with an oligarchy.
If I wrote some crappy web browser could I get on the list? How will this list be updated without the internet or until I choose one of the preselected choices seemingly dictated by the EU?
In my opinion MS did the right thing and gave the EU exactly what it asked for, Windows without IE tied into it. Now the EU is complaining about how MS implemented their rules because the outcome is not as they intended. But rules are not supposed to dictate by intent. Just because the EU cannot word their rules properly to fit their desired intent why should MS pay millions of Euros?
This is really just Opera, an European browser company, trying to get some free product placement because they cannot market their own product. FF and Chrome are doing quite well because they are good products, but I guess the Opera folks have no faith in their own product.
Score: 2
|"In my opinion MS did the right thing and gave the EU exactly what it asked for, Windows without IE tied into it. Now the EU is complaining about how MS implemented their rules because the outcome is not as they intended. But rules are not supposed to dictate by intent. Just because the EU cannot word their rules properly to fit their desired intent why should MS pay millions of Euros?"
That's pretty much what I was going to say.
A couple adages come to mind;
"Be careful what you wish for...you just might get it".
and
"Live by the rule book die by the rule book".
They told Microsoft what they wanted & Microsoft pulled an Amelia Bedelia on them & did exactly as they were asked. I'm sure all the citizens are overjoyed about not getting a web browser or a way to get one if they're not tech savvy or have to find some way to get one. Maybe the EU should learn how to communicate effectively. This brings to mind 2 people (or groups) with asperger's trying to solve a problem...1) they (the EU) have trouble communicating effectively 2) they (Microsoft) take (and carry out) everything literally (hence the Amelia Bedelia analogy). My son is in the high functioning autism/asperger's range, so I'm not making fun of anyone, just stating fact.
When it comes to the EU, Microsoft is damned if they do & damned if they don't. Now watch the EU sue Microsoft for complying with their demands. This may not be the best possible business strategy, but it "should" make the EU think things through more thoroughly and be more specific instead of just throwing out demands that can be interpreted differently than they meant them to be. If they want things changed now, I think Microsoft should treat it as a change order & bill the EU for all costs incurred including the delay to market meaning lost sales, that may just amount to millions of Euros.
Score: 0
|Should Microsoft offer Linux or MAC install too?? They don’t want IE so MS takes it out...Now that is not enough they have to offer competitors brower’s...In this Ballot option would they be allowed to offer IE...wow talk about over thinking and a complete waste of time and money.
Score: 0
|Where does this stop? Am I allowed to have notepad and wordpad, or am I taking away someones business? Calculator and paintbrush? If MS decides to improve their OS offering by making valued software a free addition to their OS, is that seriously a problem? Where does this stop?
If this is going through, I think we should then demand that opera be removed from my mobile phone, I want a choice with a ballot screen. I want opera removed from my Nintendo Wii and DS, I need a choice. The PS3 cannot bundle their own browser.. must have a choice. Apple must remove iTunes, Safari and iLife from OS X, I mean there are products which compete with those, so needless to say we must stop their criminal actions. For that matter, why stop at software, why am I not offered to choose third market rims on my BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc? I mean, what a monopoly! How dare those auto makers choose to design their product using their own parts and not offer me a choice!
As long as I can install an alternative software package, and MS isn't actively trying to stop it, I really don't mind that they're adding additional software to their OS. Frankly, I think it's remarkably presumptive of these law makers to try and force MS to do product marketing and placement for these companies at MS' cost. Will we now ask that all Pepsi commercials also give some of their commercial time to tell us that Coke is pretty tasty too?
Score: 4
|double post
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|This is why we saved all those AOL disks we got in the mail.
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|We were supposed to save all those AOL Disks and CDs??? I thought we were suppose to use them for like Collages and Coasters on the End Tables...
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|When AOL used to ship their software on floppies, I would call them up and ask for a disk whenever I needed a blank one and couldn't afford to buy one.
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