I have...lets see, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60...(looking around my desk), sh!t....I have 60 centavos, damn...I don't think that's enough to make it to the top.

59 billion pesos or dollars lets make sure :)

Bill Gates said that he "HATES" being the richest man in the world because of all of the media attention.

If anything, he's probably happy that he's no longer the richest.

Still, if Microsoft's stock just went up a couple of dollars, then Bill would be the richest again. This is probably only a temporary thing.

Why did it matter anyway? They still have more money (in term of network) than many countries.

Good point.

I would also look at the tax laws in Mexico. It's easier to be ridiculously rich if there are less obstacles in your way.

no, it's easier when you own about 15 of the most profitable companies in America (construction, metallurgic, food, computers, etc, etc, etc), and the biggest telecommunication company in Latin America, as well as about 3% of Apple's Stock :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bill Gates have 200+ billion not too long ago?

He was approaching $100 billion during the dot come boom. Had he not given so much of his own money to his charity, he'd likely be worth about $75-80 billion right now.

Didn't Gates say he doesn't care anymore? He's retiring now and is going to spend the rest of his time with his wife continuing his charity work.

It's not how much you have, it's what you do with it that counts.

Point Gates.

I agree, that squirrely software stealing nerd does do some good with his ill gotten fortune. I know him and his wife have donated millions if not close to a billion over the years.

I read about it in Frobes Magazine.

I'm sure you do. What magazine was that again...
..."Frobes Magazine".

Hurry up and edit your post again before someone reads it!

It's a joke you moron, did you even read the posts below? Of course not.

Joking aside, in fact he has donated several billions...

-1 for what???

Yeah not surprising. All the American dollars going down there thanks to illegal immigration. What do I mean? Mexican illegal immigrants come up here to find work. They then send part of their money home, no taxation just raw dollars. 20 million illegals last time I heard a number that was estimated. So let's thanks the United states government for spending all of our money defending and swimging in a soup bowl instead of guarding our own boarders. Gotta love this country, priorities are just all ate up!

Some of you may say what does this have to do with the world richest man? One of the poorest countries in the world now has the world's richest man. Huh, guess he must have all the countries money.

You're so ignorant. Mexico one of the poorest countries in the world? (http://en.wikipedia.org/...gures_for_year_2006.png)
Also, go do a little research about how mexican immigrants actually help the US economy. You need to read more, hillbilly.

GDP has *nothing* to do with any monies being sent there by illegals living in the US. You do know what GDP is, right?

Also, go do a little research about how mexican immigrants actually help the US economy.

I have. Over 4 Billion a year spent in welfare, health care and legal assistance with the drain to positive period (if they *do* become legal) being at *least* 10 years (Most estimates put it well over 2 generations).

Yeah...that's good for the economy.

"I have. Over 4 Billion a year spent in welfare, health care and legal assistance"

and checkmate, Sadred loses.

Oh god, again you... Who said GDP has anything to do with money sent to México?? I used GDP per capita because cranbers said Mexico is one of the poorest countries in the world, which, of course, is not true.

About immigrants helping the US economy, I recommend you to read, for instance, this article of the New York Times: (http://www.nytimes.com/2...r=rssuserland%26emc=rss)

Don't limit yourself to TV news and things you hear on the streets, read more, and even more important, learn to read well.

Checkmate my a** .... :)

I didn't want to do this, but y'all are forcing me ... oh, well, back to work:

"GDP has *nothing* to do with any monies being sent there by illegals living in the US. You do know what GDP is, right?"

OF COURSE GDP has nothing to do with money being sent by immigrant to their home countries, Sadred was responding to the (false) allegation by cranbers that Mexico is one of the poorest countries of the world (disclaimer: no, I'm not Mexican either, I'm Plutonian, we've discussed this already ...), not to the illegal immigration issue.

"I have. Over 4 Billion a year spent in welfare, health care and legal assistance with the drain to positive period (if they *do* become legal) being at *least* 10 years (Most estimates put it well over 2 generations)."

No, you haven't :) You just had a look at the reports that favor your (already established) point of view while ignoring the rest (sort of what Michael Moore does on the other side of the political spectrum :) )

Here's a link to a somewhat more objective report that states that actually illegal immigrants' net effect on the (American) economy is a positive one:
http://money.cnn.com/200...ation_economy/index.htm

It should also be noted that "the top financial officer of Texas claims illegal immigrants are more a boon to the Lone Star State's economy than a drain":
http://www.washingtonpos...15/AR2006121501394.html

Chess is a longer game than you think, Latz! ;)

Yeah, right... It would be good to see where he got his numbers.

Contrary to what this guy said, check here : (http://www.nytimes.com/2...ac4641dc383&ei=5090)

immigrants are "generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes."

Again, helping you ignorants.

PC_Tool, sometimes you bring up some excellent points, but in this case you have no clue what you are talking about. Resist looking like a douche by making baseless and biased accusations. That goes to everyone else who just make points based on what they saw on their local nightly news channel. bleh.

Oh sure, hiring illegal workers for below minimum wage is GREAT for employers, let's just forget about all the legal citizens who are screwed out of a job because they would have to be payed fair and legal wages.

Oh god, again you... Who said GDP has anything to do with money sent to México??

I misread that. Thought the image posted was a direct response to his 'money from illegas in the us' bit. My bad.

The second the NYT becomes *anything* but a liberal PR rag, I'll start reading it. Not a moment before.

Don't limit yourself to TV news and things you hear on the streets, read more, and even more important, learn to read well.

Here's some sage advice for you, then: Don't limit yourself to the dung thrown your way by the likes of the NYT. Look at the actual numbers sometime. From credible, named sources, not anonymous "experts".

My numbers were off. It's been a while since I've seen them. But *not* in the way you'd hope:

low skill immigrants (those without a high school degree) receive, on average, three dollars in government benefits and services for each dollar of taxes they pay. This imbalance imposes a net cost of $89 billion per year on U.S. taxpayers. Over a lifetime, the typical low skill immigrant household will cost taxpayers $1.2 million.

From: http://www.heritage.org/.../Immigration/wm1490.cfm

Can the generation of the 6 to 7 Billion you claim even begin to cover the $89 billion?

There's your numbers. I admit I should have gotten them from the source the first post (4 billion being a tad less than 89), but hey...

http://www.heritage.org/.../Immigration/wm1490.cfm

http://www.heritage.org/...h/Immigration/index.cfm

There's numbers for you that don't come from CNN or the Post. (I really hate those folks, can't believe you get those on Pluto, even more that you trust them)

Ignore the numbers for a moment and focus on where they get them and the research that went into getting them (They cite all sources, unlike some rags out there)

According to the libs, the legal citizens don't want 'em. Apparently the hundreds of legals down lawn service and roofing in our area would rather not have jobs...

Immigrants usually go to segments of the labor market where there is the most demand and less supply. They typically take jobs that most Americans are not interested in... unless you're into picking lettuce.

Don't watch the local news. Ever.

Weather underground for the weather, other than that, the net, my colleagues, and named, credible researchers are my sources of information.

(Granted, it's been a while since I've gone over these numbers, hence my error above. '4 billion" should have been "89 billion". I was confusing the numbers with what the Libs wanted to raise our taxes by here in MN.

Not for the prices that my Mexican brothers will do it for, unless those legal workers also dont mind living in a room with another 20 people and eating just cup 'o noodles for every meal ( possibly some refried beans? .. they refried cus it didnt sound good to say " leftovers from 2 weeks ago " ).

And perhaps the numbers that are being posted arent just about Mexicans, Latinos, or Asians, but perhaps a combination? So lets aim our crosshairs at all immigrants, not just a single race, or lets not aim in at all.

I feel for those Native Americans reading this...how they mjust feel about the white immigrants!

Latz, Sb

hehe, ok, now this post explains a lot... The Heritage Foundation is where you get your info? The highly conservative institute who promotes "conservative public policies, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.", the same guys how supported Bob Dole's presidential campaign?

Give me a break, and you criticized me, the nerve on you.

Weren't you supposed to couple this statement with evidence?

Never said Mexicans. The only word I've used here is illegals.

Thanks.

Yes, discredit the source.

Never mind that they cite actual research, their sources have sources, and their data is legitimate.

Never mind that the two rags you claimed for sources were dependent on one's faith in "un-nanmed experts" with no citation of legitimate sources or where they get their data from.

Typical. Hide behind emotional rhetoric and passion. I'll stand behind actual facts. When the dust settles, we'll see what remains, eh?

What?

Liberals use facts? They don't like those. They tend to go against them. Why do you think their own party is telling them to use emotion and passion instead of facts to win elections and sway issues.

My apologies to ajadoniz if you are, in fact, not a lib.

"un-named experts", dude, as I said, learn to read, some of the sources for the articles I posted are:

The Government Accountability Office, Social Security Administration.
Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary.
Census Bureau's population survey,
Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies.
Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

I guess you've also misread those articles :),
Some of those who you called 'anonymous' are:

Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary.
Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies.
Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

The Government Accountability Office, Social Security Administration.

A graph showing the number of wages reported under non-legitimate Social security ids. Not necessarily in your favor there, eh?

Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary.

His entire contribution to the article? '3/4th of the illegals pay taxes.' (That barely even begin to pay back the costs in social services and healthcare, I might add)

I could find no quotes or data from the other sources you named above in any of the articles you linked.

Try again. This time, try for some real data. Like costs to healthcare, social services, and such compared to the minimal contribution they pay towards taxes or social security from their extremely low-wage jobs.

Considering that OVER HALF of the total illegal immigrants in the US of A are Mexicans, it wasn't such a bad generalization, actually (and that number - 56% - comes directly from your beloved and trusted Heritage Foundation ... :) ), but you're right about it, there's still a 44% who are illegal immigrants and not Mexican

Quote 'em. Could not find any mention of them in any of the articles you linked.

Seriously. If I *am* missing something, I want to know. But judging from the two sources you referenced that I did manage to find in your articles, I'm a bit skeptical to say the least.

The Government Accountability Office, Social Security Administration.

If you had read the whole article you'd know that those non-legitimate security ids is where all the money payed by immigrants is, and they never get any benefit.

Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary.
3/4th of the illegals pay taxes, yes, and they even pay more than the average American. (again, without any benefit)

"Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file" -Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

"3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes" -Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies.

And it goes on, and on... you really need to learn how to read PC_Tool, also, you need to know that when an article has numbers on the bottom, followed by 'Next>>' it means that the article has more than 1 page.

I guess you've saved me from that :) Because you've find that all the people are mentioned in the articles, so again, my articles had real sources, real information, and once again you've failed to read (and most important, to understand) what's posted.

If you had read the whole article you'd know that those non-legitimate security ids is where all the money payed by immigrants is, and they never get any benefit.

1.) The social security paid is by wages earned. They earn among the lowest wages in the country so their contribution to social security is likewise. Common sense and logic.

2.) They get no benefit (and read this carefully because it's a bit hard to grasp) THEY ARE NOT LEGAL! (tough one, I know, let it settle)

3/4th of the illegals pay taxes, yes, and they even pay more than the average American. (again, without any benefit)

Wrong. They may pay a higher portion of their wages than I do, but not even their wages come close to the *entire* amount of taxes paid by the middle class. (again, no benefit because *gasp* they aren't legal...keeping up?)

"3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes"

Which is a drop in the bucket (compared tot he $818 Billion collected in total in '06) and doesn't even begin to cover the drain they put on our economy.

Do you actually *look* at these numbers, and compare them to totals? Do you even bother to think for one second that maybe you're not getting *all* of the data? That it's being tailored to fit their views?

Yes, the information was there. But as I state below, they utterly failed to give you the comparisons.

~6 billion paid by illegals doesn't compare in the slightest to the $818 billion collected.

You have some facts, but only the ones that don't hurt your views. Compare the numbers with the totals. Compare the drain to the contribution. Look for the numbers the NYT, CNN and the post aren't giving you.

So lets aim our crosshairs at all immigrants, not just a single race, or lets not aim in at all.

The barril implied I wasn't. Grrr...

About helthcare:
"The study, published in the American Journal of Public Health, found that immigrants accounted for 10.4 percent of the U.S. population but only 7.9 percent of total health spending and 8 percent of government health spending."

"Our data indicates that many immigrants are actually helping to subsidize care for the rest of us," "...shows just how unfounded these allegations are and I hope it will permanently put to rest these misinformed and misguided myths." Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, a founder of Physicians for a National Health Program.

About social security:
"Immigrants pay billions in payroll taxes. Many, especially illegals, do not stick around to receive retirement benefits. Even non-U.S. citizens are required to pay Social Security taxes on income earned in the U.S. unless specifically exempt. So on balance immigrants and guest workers are a positive for the Social Security System, and by increasing their numbers we can reduce the funding shortfall."

-Edwin S. Rubenstein, economist and Director of Research for the Hudson Institute.

Anyway, this topic has ended for me, I hope some of you will look for info in order to find the truth, get the facts people, don't hate and blame immigrants just because you were told to.

We actually don't get them in Pluto, I have a friend in Uranus who forwards them to me ...

Back to the debate:
Even you would have to concede that the Heritage Foundation is *hardly* objective in their views and their data-picking, right?

But I did follow your advice and focused on where the "numbers" come from. But before I get into that, there's this one phrase that caught my attention in one of the documents you referenced in you comment: "This is a rough estimate. More research should be performed, but policymakers should examine these potential costs very carefully before rushing to grant amnesty, "Z visas," or "earned citizenship" to the current illegal immigrant population." Interesting ...

Ok, sources: some of the sources are other Heritage Foundation publications, so we're always in the same neighborhood, politically-wise. Yet other ones come from people like Steven A. Camarota, director of the Center for Immigration Studies, whose Mission Statement goes: "The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted." Not precisely liberal also, right? (no pun intended) :P

Anyway, I'm not criticizing the sources per se, but the interpretation of the data. Even if you had chosen more objective sources, there's more than enough data available on this subject to support *any* political view if you're careful in selecting the most favorable pieces.

(This all started with Bill Gates, how the **** did we get here? :D )

1) Yeah, $189 billion and growing $50 billion a year, is little. (read the whole article).

2) That's the whole point idiot, they DO NOT benefit... so what's your point? what had they took from you? "... the drain they put on our economy." what drain? give facts...

More like $189 billion paid by immigrants and growing $50 billion a year. (read the whole article).

Anyway, it's not about comparing how much you've collected between immigrants and legal residents (you're still the majority, so obviously it'd be more *gasp*), it's about how much you've expended you idiot.... you've collected a lot more from immigrants than you've expended on them.

Some numbers we *can* agree on?

Roughly $6 Billion going to the Suspended SS file.

Total Payroll Taxes collected in 2006 (widely available, sourced from Wikipedia): $818 Billion.

Let's first take a look at that first one, one of the ones sadred gave us. The $6 Billion.

I believe the average deduction for Social is ~7.65% annual. If you divide the $6 billion by the estimated (widely accepted) number of illegals (12 Million), you get $500 per. If you then get calculate what their annual wage would be by that 7.65%, you end up at around $6,500.

That's right. $6500. (And this is assuming every single one of those illegals was contributing to the 6 billion...a stretch by any means, at a 75 % rate, it's up to almost $9000 a year)

Now, call me whatever you want, but my *wife* only earned $2000 more than that in '06 (She works from home doing data entry). Do you honestly believe that number could possibly be right? It's *far* too big.

Looking at other sources for the "Suspended file", it claims the $6 Billion is a total. Meaning it does *not*, as implied by sadred, consist soley of contributions made by illegals, but in fact covers *any* taxes collected that they cannot link to an actual person. I know you're a creative bunch...figure it out.

Sure, any view can be supported, but even by agreed upon numbers, it doesn't look "good" any way you toss it.

Add into the relatively insignificant contribution in payroll taxes the drain on social welfare and healthcare, and there's just no way it can come out as a benefit.

...or is my math simply too old-school for today's politics?

1.) Funny. Total tax revenue for the US in '03? 2 Trillion. Yeah, it *is* little. Not even a percent. I keep telling you, compare the numbers you are given with totals. Compare the drain to the gain. Try it sometime.

2.)They do not collect Social Security. You are correct, Sir! However, they *do* collect assistance, welfare, medical care and take up resources in law enforcement. These are *not* negligible costs, and are not even close to being covered by their contributions.

*laughs*

You can't remember your own posts?

$6 Billion in Social Security suspended file.

$189 total tax contribution.

Compare:

$818 Billion total social Security in '06.

$2.2 Trillion total taxes collected in '03 (The latest stat I could find quickly).

Now look at the other quotes you posted below:
7.9 percent of healthcare (paid by all taxes, our insurance premiums, etc). Look at the numbers. How can they *possibly* cover 7.9% of healthcare expenses when they don't even contribute a single percentage of the total money used for such services?

Not even a percent.

Your numbers don't even pan out with eachother, ffs.

Try again.

Mr. Martínez (the guy from the article), works about 70 hours a week (yes, 70 hours), at about 10 dollars hour, that makes 2800 dollars a month.

Many immigrants have 2 or more jobs, they work hard, really hard, and still, many of them made less than your wife. (not Mr. Martínez of course, anyway I hope my math is simple enough for you)

12 Million.

Now, subtract the kids.

Now subtract those not being taxed.

Even @ 1 kid per household (two adults), that's 66% of the 12 Million.

Now, by your own statement, if they made *less* than $6500, there is *no* possible way they could have contributed anywhere *near* the entire $6 Billion in the Suspended file.

No way.

Not by any stretch of the imagination. (Unless the 12 Million is *way* under the real totals...which *is* a possibility) I'm just using the numbers provided and generally agreed upon. If they are extremely incorrect, *all* of our information and the conclusions derived are flawed and this is pointless.

Look, I'm not against immigration. But we need to be able to get a handle on it. Right now, we don't, and the recent bills discussed don't do much to achieve that end.

What we really need to do first is stop the tide and get a handle on the *real* numbers. then we can decide what needs to be done.

Last post I'll make about this topic:

"It's about how much you've expended you idiot.... you've collected a lot more from immigrants than you've expended on them."

The facts are there, your argument is not valid, it's good you collect that much... how much you spend in immigrants vs what they paid? that's the whole point, not to mention they help to maintain low costs for most of the stuff you eat and buy every day.

Have a nice day.

too bad your done.

One last thing in case you drop back in:

In the US, the top 1% of wage earners pay the *vast* majority of the taxes collected (Somewhere around 60%?).

Now, logically:

How, in any scenario, could the lowest class of wage-earners contribute *more* to the services that those taxes fund (Welfare, healthcare, social security, law enforecement, etc)?

How?

Now, considering that costs for *all* of these services are skyrocketing, who's to blame? The top 1% (who don't use them), or the lowest class of wage earners? Hmmmm?

It's basic logic, man.

If they were contributing more than they were using, the costs would be dropping, would they not? Unless you're implying that the middle-class legals who make more, contribute more and actually have things like Health insurance, are more of a drain than the illegals. Hardly self-evident.

Pfffttt.. Mexico's GDP (2006) was 1.09 trillion dollars (13th biggest economy, and has a bigger GDP per capita than 65% of the countries of the world). Illegals sent home 23 billion dollars (2006)... So that's just 2% of the total GDP. Don't be such a drama queen. Perhaps you should read more and investigate how he got that rich (hint: a monopoly with high phone rates paid mostly by the growing Mexican middle class). Money sent by illegals usually is used by the poorest to pay for food and basic services, NOT internet, cellphone plans, a telephone line, or other stuff that Slim owns down in Mexico. I'm not endorsing ANY political opinion here, just hate when someone gives false information. Someone as uninformed as you could make a similar but opposite claim: "But Mexican pesos are going to big American companies (example Wal-Mart that makes billions of dollars in Mexico)"

A help to our economy I think not. They are bigger drain than a help. Look at the hospitals closing due to havign to give out free care to them as an example. We need to close the flood gates NOW!

The liberal, socialist idea is killing this country at a record pace. Entitlemments is not the answer but the problem. I agree with you tool.

We'll see you signing a different song when your city is over run by these people and the system falls apart. A new blight in your neighborhood my be just what you need to see that this is a serious problem not a benefit to the country. I question you defending illegal activitey.

This is not too hard to believe.. Last time I was in Mex my hotel phone bill was about 200$ for 30mins to the states.

"...while Slim says he helps best by creating wealth and jobs through his own companies."

WTF? and Bill Gates doesn't do that too, besides donating?

Another one that will take all his money to the grave..

Frobes??? Use Spell Check

relax jerk.

"Gates has also been giving away more of his money to charitable causes, while Slim says he helps best by creating wealth and jobs through his own companies."

One is a cheap bas****, the other is one half of the largest philanthropic organization in the history of mankind.

actually he's going off the old chinese proverb: "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

there are many ways to make a difference. besides both receive benefits for their actions: Gates a tax break and Slim more income.

Do you really think Gates cares about tax breaks and that's why he does it? If he cared so much about the money he could have stayed at Microsoft, in fact he's got more than he could ever spend on himself in his lifetime. You just hate him too much to admit that he's actually a very giving person.

"...while Slim says he helps best by creating wealth and jobs through his own companies."

Hmmm...sounds like all those illegals can get on home now!

"Of course, the passing of the torch won't officially come until Frobes publishes its annual list next year."

Hehe. Frobes.

"Gates has also been giving away more of his money to charitable causes, while Slim says he helps best by creating wealth and jobs through his own companies."

Haha. "I help best by not giving away my money".

yeesh. i don't approve of double posting but you need to be reminded as well:

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

Why do you feel the need to defend this guy? The old "Teach a man to fish..." proverb doesn't hold water when guys like him are emptying the lakes.

You can be the best fisherman in the world and fish all day long, but if the lake is empty you aren't catching anything except maybe a boot.

Not to sure about that, found this on him as well:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8297

What do you actually know about this guy?? Jesus, you people like to talk without any knowledge. Carlos Slim does a lot of philanthropic work, not everybody likes to publicize their charity.

To reiterate an earlier comment, maybe he could employ all those people who have a desperate need to be here illegally?

I was going by the article here.

Fair enough if he actually is donating money to charities.

See above.

But don't quote crappy proverbs at me.

Teach him how to fish and he lives 300 miles from a river, he's ****ed.

What? His profits would plummet!

/sarcasm

Again... ignorant speak. Slim is the biggest employer in México. (http://findarticles.com/...0HWW/is_7_4/ai_70740556)
Really, you people need to read more. You're so full of sh*t.

Obviously he's not big enough, although it sounds like you're working for him.

Or maybe Bush should finally start protecting the borders?