I have to laugh at all you guys who bring the rootkit issue into this.
Sony screwed up. They backed the wrong horse. Then when told they backed the wrong horse, hey refused to admit it might be true, thus screwing up more.
This placed a vulnerabily on probably 5 to 10 percent of the computers out there. That sucks and yes, they should be held accountable.
(The sarcasm starts here)
So lets boycott Sony. You see that drive at the top of your tower? Ya, throw that away. Because pehaphs it wasnt made by Sony, but the laser is it was. Oh, those discs that hold your backup data? Could not have been made without technology made by sony. Those CD's in your car? The CD player? The MP3 player? ANY commonly used digital media of almost any kind? Ya, thats a Sony based laser. Now giving credit where credit is due, Philips was doing the same thing at the same time, but Sony implemented it into the main stream.

Yes, they screwed up. But the second you decide to boycott Sony for rootkit, how about boycotting Microsoft for almost every other vulnerability your computer has? Mind you I am not saying boycott Microsoft. I am saying base your desicions on the products, not the company that makes them. Not what they have done in the past, but what they are doing now and what they will do in the future.

By the way, Yes, I support Blue-Ray, as I know that no matter how much protection it has at one point flexibility will become a consumer, hence corporate issue. However as much as I support it, I don't believe Sony's gonna win this one. But thats alright. They have basically already declared themselves winners of the console wars and their's hasnt even been released yet. Is there a way to make sweet sweet love to a dime-size NVidia chip?

I'm done with the HD/BR debate. It could go either way. Lets face it....companies are sick and tired of people stealing their content, so they (like fox) will more than likely go BR. There's also the typical method of explaining away why you're still going to charge 30 for 1 disk, instead of for 5 or 6 of them. They can say, "well we'd like to sell the products for $20 but the BR format is a costly one", this is basically the reason given to an 11 DVD set costing 90+ dollars. I ofcourse prefer HD, because of it's streaming properties....but we'll see. Right now all we can really do is wait and see.

Are you people still debating on this!?

Lets make this simple for everyone arguing

Cost will be the choice in this war, HD-DVD costs about 30% less than BD-Rom, So even though BD-Rom offers more space than HD-DVD, HD-DVD will more likely be chosen because of cost.

What is your primary source for this information, and what costs are you talking about -- replication, wholesale, retail?

I think neither format will "win" and we'll see some other distribution by 2007 that will supplant both, be it online, holographic, or whatever.

Physicial mediums for digital distribution are old hat.

Keep dreaming, and wake up in at least 10 years. Physical media will still be here. Technology announcements may move fast, but the average consumer's pace of change is glacial.

The capacity of the disk is actually very important. Imagine an entire season of a tv show in high definition on 1 disk instead of 3. That's definitely a big point. Or having the Lord of the Rings trilogy in HD on one disk instead of 3. There's definitely an advantage there.

It was thought initially that Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD would bring that sort of a ratio, but I doubt seriously we will see those capacities in use considering how long it took Sony to get the initial prototypes out the door.

Yes i would perfer one disk instead of three but i would prefer to just load it into my computer and steam around the home and Blu-Ray doesn't want to suport that.

So the question falls back onto you would you rather have three disks in storage(with no risk of getting scratched)and easily access it with a remote control so you don't even have to get up and search your collection just hit a button on the remote and choose what you want or have one disk that you have to search for(people with kids know how fast things get mixed up) and drag it with you living room den or bedroom(lots of people watch tv while going to sleep)and still risk it getting scratched.

Sure streaming media around the home isn't mainstream yet but as it catches on a bit more prices will drop encouraging more people to try it Microsofts already gotten the ball rolling on this with media center pcs and media center extender.

... and don't think the rights holders who market those TV shows haven't thought about the price/value perception of getting a full season on one disc instead of four or five. People will think they're being overcharged (even though they're not) if one disc costs the same as four -- even if it does contain the same volume of content. Technology is not a panacea for marketing issues. Sometimes, it introduces more complications, not less.

We already have a history with Fox making wrong decisions ...don't we?

lol

i am gonna laugh when HD-DVD kicks so much butt and blu ray fails. just cause the PS3 will play blu ray discs don't mean anything. HD-DVD is going to be cheap and it will work on PC's better as well. and when HD-DVD emerges the winner fox will think to them selves oh crap we need to make HD-DVD movies or we will lose a ton of money.

I'm going to laugh when you fail 3rd grade again for the 5th time. However all grammar aside, I'm rooting for blu-ray on this one. It'll eventually play on computers, just as the players will eventually be $30 each like they are for dvd's now.

DVD players are $30 now, but it took them 5+ years to get there.

I doubt Blu-Ray players would be in that price range within 5 years if the format is even around for that long.

(p.s.)
Grammar lesson:

You need a comma after "However."

"One" is not a valid pronoun.

Jim, the problem isn't the 'playing' of BR on computers. It's the ability to stream them throughout the post millenia home. 2K5 has seen many advancements, and 2K6 will see even more. People would like to be able to stream media from their PC or Media Devices throughout the home - instead of having to sit by the PC/Living Room TV, etc, people would like to pop the disc into one machine and be able to watch it wherever there's a TV set up. Likewisee, we want the ability to do something if it can be done. It's ours, we purchased it. If I want to copy stuff to a BR disc and access it off a computer somewhere else in the network, I'd like to be able to do that. Currently, BR proposes that you cannot do this. Only the devices into which the disc is inserted will be able to 'see' it and it won't be IP transportable, meaning that the PC in the next room won't see the disc in your BR drive. That really sucks. Another reason people are shying away from BR is the whole PS3 rumor about not being able to play used content (the information posted is that the PS3 will render a new disk 'bonded' to it *to make it short*. That disk will therefore not be playable on another PS3 device). The patent has been made, but has not been made for the PS3 per se. It could be said that this tech could be used in BR movies so that they bond to the first player they're played on.
Down to the nitty gritty, the problem with BR is TOO MUCH PROTECTION. This translates to customers losing freedom/features and money.

You obviously haven't seen its balance sheet lately. We all should be making such "wrong" decisions.

Keep in mind, Jim, there may be $30 players now, but DVD is heading into its ninth year, so don't hold your breath waiting for sub $100 high-def disc players in any format.

Why would the average user want to upgrade to blu-ray, even oblivious to sony's recent rootkit fiasco? Anybody who does not understand the limitations that will be imposed by bluray's drm, will be just getting settled into DVD format, I highly doubt most will be willing to pay the higher cost for additional enhancements that will not be taken advantage of. The technology saavy will avoid completely for obvious reasons. i predict the bluray format will be used by ps3 obviously and abandoned (temporarily at least) by movie studios once the cost of manufacturing and support to public acceptance ratio has been more clearly defined. As of November 18th, 2005, Sony has just released their first BluRay movie(charlies angels: full throttle, compressed and authored in MPEG 2 full high-definition (1920 x 1080)) to the hardware manufacturers for testing, thus still exists mostly on paper. Many unknown variables still on the BluRay side.

Sorry but HDDVD, brings only slight changes in manufacturing process compared to traditional DVDs. HDDVD/DVD hybrid standalone and pc drives will be much more affordable. DVD has had too short of a life span to be abandoned for a dramatically different (and more expensive) technology such as blueray. Blueray's advantages are more in the (playstaton3 Games)data capacity aspect than in video. If movies are encoded in mpeg4 avc, it doesn't matter which format is used, there's plenty of room for movie and other features. Blueray's DRM and lack of iHD negate it's higher disc capacity, because it's not going to be friendly with anything besides the playstation3 anyways.

PS Blue laser optical is where things are heading, but Blu-Ray is not the answer. Too premature, with too many strings attached.

I said it before and i will say it again HD-DVD will win because the average person does not care about the few extra gigs for extra video/sound quality it will be hardly noticeable if at all and as for burning look at the non geeks other than pirates they have no need to burn that much stuff it's more for geeks and companies not the average person and the average person will just pick the cheaper of the two.

Another reason HD-DVD will have an advantage is Microsoft is in their camp and if Microsoft permotes it properly is streaming media through out the home and they already have been testing this out with media center pcs with a good media blitz and and they can afford a good one the average person will look and go it's cheaper and i can stream it around the house if i choose to that will sell a lot of people to it.

What does Blu-Ray have that would make the average person choose it it will be more expencive more copy protection they will have managed copy i believe but they want to take away the ability to stream it the only advantage Blu-Ray has is the PS3 will get into many homes but most people i know use a regular DVD player to watch DVDs even thou they own Xboxes and PS2s and don't mention the Sony rootkit the average person doesn't know about it unfortunatly(sad but true)

There seems to be a pattern here.

Betamax vs. VHS
Minidisc vs. Digital Compact Cassette
SACD vs. DVD Audio
Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD

You win some, you lose some. I look forward to being able to play Blu-Ray movies on a PS3, I would prefer that there wasn't as much copy protection, but that's not my decision. Both formats will have to be affordable to survive, and maybe both will stick around for awhile ala DVD+R vs. DVD-R or SACD vs. DVD-Audio. But that will only happen with "universal" players or burners. The general public won't pay much higher of a price for higher definition: SACD and DVD Audio Discs are only slightly more expensive than cds, dvd aren't much more expensive than vhs tapes, cds cost little more than cassettes.

If it were up to the movie studios we would have less consumer rights, hopefully we won't stand for it. I should be able to record my high def television shows to either blu-ray or hd-dvd, since the vcr we've been able to record broadcast, that shouldn't change regardless of definition.

It's only a matter of time before any copy-protection is broken, either through software or modded hardware.

The manufacturing costs of CDs is less than a cassette. However, recording studios charge you more for higher quality.

CDs are also more expensive because the demand for them is much higher.

That's basic economics.

Point of information: recording studios don't charge "you" for anything. They charge the record labels, who charge you.

Take a look at Fox's statement piece by piece.

"We believe that Blu-ray not only has the superior technology" means Fox doesn't have the content or programming muchless an audience that can afford these HD technologies, but hey,
it's got them fancy "blue lasers" and can store more stuff!

"and backing in terms of strength to market" means that Fox hopes you are ignorant of recent defections or bi-format announcements from fence sitters; and equate brand awareness of traditionally proprietary companies that are well known (e.g. Apple, Sony) with market share strength.

"but also the superior content protection," means Fox envisions other revenue streams that are ordinarily cannibalized by unpatriotic commies still hooked on FAIR USE (e.g. streaming your movies in home, transferring movies to your portable media player, backup copies, etc.).

LOL! Spot on, kgruber!

Yep. He's "spot on" wrong on every point.

Looking at history, having Disney and Fox supporting it is probably the WORST thing that could happen to Blu-Ray. Remember, these were the two biggest holdouts when it came to DVD... They both stood behind DIVX until it's none too soon death.

Someone else remembers those DIVX discs? I knew I wasn't crazy! Agreed.

hehe divx, go circut city go! lol

The only thing wrong with DiVX was that the general transactional concept and technology was years ahead of its time. The basic DiVX model in fact is where one segment of online content will end up anyhow: Micro-payments for individual content with a time-sensitive viewing window.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2..._and_loses_bda_requests/
Blue-ray agreed to support the content managmet that hd-dvd support ( the idea of streaming media). The only thing they disagreed on was not to support iHD (xml) instead they are supporting BD-J (java based).

Blue-Ray will be the clear winner. The only argument that hd-dvd has over blue-ray is price. But everything starts off at high price then drops within 6 months. Plus, when ps3 comes out millions will be adoptin to blue-ray leaving HD-dvd in the dust

What are consumers gona throw that boomerang of a controller and every person that gets hit by it is infected with the Rootkit?

I frankly don't care what they do. I'll support HD-DVD over them in a heartbeat. The money is what matters most--WHY DO WE NEED MORE SPACE? Make HD-DVD drives for movies so they don't cost $40 a disc and make Blu-Ray for those flunkies who want more backup storage space. I won't buy a blu-ray disc even if it means I won't be able to buy movies in the future, I'm that hard-headed about it. Sony can kiss my--

Hey dumba**, what has rootkits got to do with Blu-Ray?

"Hey dumba**, what has rootkits got to do with Blu-Ray?"

You been in a cave the past month?

Rootkits and Blu-Ray are both made by Sony.

lol. I guess you lack the maturity to read news, or to construct any sort of argument. On top of that you lack the intelligence to understand a joke(I HOPE) when you read one.

Like Wincement said, Sony is also knee deep right now in lawsuits and consumer uproar due to the hellstorm that is the XCP/DRM/Rootkit fiasco.

I won't switch over to Blu-ray just because I am boycotting everything Sony until they make ammends for the rootkit snafu and other similar actions. I had to replace my Sony monitor and I did not by another Sony. I also am in the market for a new TV. I was going to buy a Sony HD but not anymore. Sony has no idea yet how much they damaged themselves. A widescale boycott would be helpful in reminding the whole industry that the consumers dollars keep them in business.

Amen to that brother :)

I just bought a 60-inch Sony LCD HD TV and love it. Keep 'em coming, Sony. There's more than enough of us out here who could give two you-know-whats about rootkit and will remain loyal customers. As for the others, if they weren't complaining about you and rootkit, they'd find something else to complain about. Just the nature of the beast.

The rootkit isn't as much the problem...it's Sony's response to the problem.

Still not the point, which is that 90% of the consumer public doesn't pay attention to techie stuff like this. Sony recalled 4 million rootkit CDs. That equates to about 1+% of the U.S. population. Let me amend that: 99% of the public doesn't give a hoot about rootkit or Sony's response. File it under "get a life."

this guy writes trojans with $sys$ and wants your credit card numbers. how do you think he bought a 60inch sony tv?

Oh, so just because the masses are asses, we should all join them. Bend over buddy, Sony knows where you live!

How did I buy it? On credit, Einstein.

You're right. Sony does know where I live. So? And I am bent over. I have a back problem. What are you, a sadist?

It's their loss!

Last time I checked BETAMAX was not the winner in the Beta/VHS war. Betamax was the sony propietary crap they tried to shove up consumers behinds. The consumers answered with not buying the substandard propietary product. The same will happen here, Sony will try to push their propietary junk and the consumer will turn around and buy HD-DVD.

BTW, last time I checked the PS3 is just vaporware. THE DEVKITS ARE NOT EVEN OUT YET, as in devs havent been able to get them. So atm the PS3 is just a Sony promise and nothing more.

PS3 is vaporware? Are you stupid? It's coming out next year, with Blu-Ray. You're the only person in the world who even thinks about doubting that fact.

Have you seen the actual console working yet? NO. Has any developer recieved the DevKits? NO

Have we seen any actual gameplay footage? NO. What we have seen is Prerendered JUNK and false promises! Remember back in the PS2 launch how they said the PS2 would be able to display toystory in real time? HAHAHAHAHA

Anyone who believes this hype is nuts.. Until they have a working machine it is all vaporware.

YES! I have :)

http://media.ps3.ign.com....wmv%3Fposition%3Dfront

Prerendered k thanks.

None of the E3 videos were realtime, it has been stated over various news sites over the last few months.

Did you watch the part where they showed in game action? The guy was HOLDING a PS3 controller, and controlling the views in game...hmm prerendered?

Cant watch the video from work. But ill take your word for it, but I am still a bit skeptical since there has been absolutly no pictures no nothing on the PS3 hardware since E3.

However you should accept the fact that most of the stuff on E3 was Pre rendered. Please dont make me go looking for articles on the web, cause they are there but I dont feel like doing more research today =p

It's obvious you must be some Xbox 360 fan. Just because you are willing to shell out $300+ for an advanced TV-out card (or perhaps over $500 for the premium bundle), does not mean that the PS3 is "vaporware".

Let's look at what is going to happen here...

GFX processor: Nvidia RSX "Reality Synthesizer" (ps3) vs. generic ATI card. owned.

Graphics Clock Speed: 550MHz (ps3) vs. 500. owned.

Resolution: 9 possible (ps3) vs. 5 possible. owned

Media: 80GB vs. oh, sorry... dual-layer DVD ROM? owned

Cell processor vs. custom IBM CPU .owned

Terraflops: 2.0 vs. 1.0 owned.

Wireless: x7 Bluetooth vs. x4 2.4ghz RF. owned.

Memory: 256MB XDR@3.2GHZ+256MB@700MHZ vs. 512MB@700MHZ+10MB Embedded. owned!!

Over 150 titles in development including GTA, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Grand Turismo vs. generic racing games, Doom clones (Halo), etc... owned...

Sorry, I guess its not in your favor! You are going to realize what 80GB of media capacity is going to do to the video game industry quite soon...

HAHA ATI GENERIC CARD. thats a good one. The ATI card was custom made for the Xbox360, and is not part of any GPU that ATI has put in the market, acording to them it is a stronger GPU than R520 aka FUDO card. You are comparing a working vidcard, to NVdias concept card, oh btw that RSX card is based off the 7000 architecture, so you can find most of what ull see in the PS3 in stores right now.

Cell processor is an unproven technology. Add to that the fact that programming for the PS3 is twice as hard than it was for the PS2.

All of these numbers you threw out there, are speculation. They say these are the final numbers but until I SEE A WORKING PROTOTYPE I wont belive them, you shouldnt either consindering sonys long standing record of PR BS.

Well, Obviously ATi's Customer card for the X360 isn't all that great if most of the crashes are due to Video failure :P, I've been a Big fan of ATi for a long time, But nVidia has always been the best, Lately ATi has been falling down, and screwing up constantly... I mean, If you compare the X1800 VS 7800GT, The 7800 Blows the X1800 Away in benchmark, The new X1000 Series cards is based off of the chip they use for the X360...hmm, where as the Chip developed for the PS3 by nVidia is now used in the 7 Series. What does that tell you? nVidia's Chip is better. Plan and simple.

Actually the crashes are caused by overheating of the powersupply. You see it is a little known fact, that most consumers fail to realize that they should READ THE MANUAL. In said manual it is stated, that the powersupply aka brick on a string should be well ventilated.

Good ventilation doesnt come from putting a powersupply on a carpet, or next to a heat emitting source.

The overheating of the Powersupply was the cause of the crash problems in the 360.

On top of that, like with any other mass produced piece of equipment, there are instances were a console could be DOA or were some of the Powersupplies were not supplying the correct voltage(from what ive read it was due to failiure from one of the PSU manufacturers).

Actually the architecture for the x1800 cards is the 530(FUDO) arch. The one used for the 360 is 550 if im not mistaken.

Also if your memory doesnt serve you right, ATI and Nvidia have been in a tugofwar the past few years. before the 7 series, the x800 and x850 line of cards were blowing the 6800s out of the water, and by alot. Personally I love that they keep going like this, because it means more advances, and better stuff for us the consumer. Actually Nvidia slipped until this latest iteration, as far as performance and reliability. Heres a small history lesson =) After the 4 series of Nvidia cards, came their worst line of video cards, the 5 series. They were the first to utilize two slots on the mobo, and were know for running very hot as well as not performing to standard. This is were ATI started catching up with their 9X00 series. After that Nvidia released the 6 series, which IMO was a huge improvement in performance, and in stability. These cards were awesome, however ATI took a step forward with the X8X0 series. So now the tide is on Nvidias side again, but I wouldnt be surprised if it turned to ATIs side on the next gen. Specially once ATI gets a handle of their CrossFire chipset.

Are you gona tell me now, that Intel is better than AMD?

For the record I believe that NVIDIA seems more stable overall, so I prefer them. However, given MS's experience with NVIDIA for the original XBox, I can understand the switch. Currently ATI's video IS better than the PS3 specs of the NVIDIA card, but the PS3 isn't released yet so anything can happen. I agree with you about the 360, Jedite.

Haha. Look at all you fools saying "bad move" and "who cares about fox?" and all that crap. Bunch of Sony haters, HD-DVD is dead. Get over it. www.blu-ray.com, get used it.

Blu-ray is going to win the next-gen format, anyone who hates it can suck it.

Um at last check Blu-ray had two supporters and HD-DVD has better than 10X that.

You sound like a genius.

only 2 supporters?? where are you getting your information from!?!?!?

http://www.blu-ray.com/images/ifa2005/bda_06.jpg

Um HP backed out like a month ago.
http://www.betanews.com/...uray_Backing/1132245186

So now it should be 15 on that image instead of 16. But still nowhere near 2.

What you fail to realize (even though the competition is not yet over betwene HD DVD and Blu-Ray):

Even if Blu-Ray had NO competition it does not mean it will replace DVD as a standard. Take laserdiscs for example - these were supposed to be replacements for VCR tapes, but consumers rejected the format, and a such it flopped, this could still happen with Blu-Ray, regardless of the Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD battle.

ooo ok..1 company... Look at all the rest.

In the words so commonly used so far.

"who cares about" HP anyway?

Their CD/DVD burners are crap (I know this from experience, I have replaced many)

Their computers aren't all that great.

Their Printers have gone to hell, Use nothing but cheap junk parts, they're almost disposable.

I myself own an HP Photosmart M20 Digital Camera which quit working on me 10 days after the 60 Day warranty...

...So...yeah...

Not just that...Look a The Contributors and General Members.

Oh come now. You know it's doomed to fail. It only has the crappy little companies and washed up companies such as Pioneer and JVC. supporting it. Toshiba, NEC Microsoft, just to name a few that support HD-DVD. Seeing just one of those names are larger than every one of the Blu-Ray supporters added together.

Yeah, I minimized it to much, it's a few more than 2, but still has NOTHING.

http://www.marketing-see...content/article3406.php

BTW this is old news.

http://www.channelregist...08/01/hd_dvd_vs_blu-ray/

"It only have the crappy little companies supporting it"

Sony?? (Still the #1 Console maker in the world)
Apple??
Dell?? (The Largest computer manufacturer on the planet)
LG (One of the largest Cell phone/Chip makers on the Planet
IBM Lenovo (The largest server/chip maker on the planet)
Pioneer (The Most popular in the CD/DVD Player Market)
Panasonic?? (makes the toughest notebooks on the planet)
Phillips??
Hitachi???
Mitsubishi???
Samsung??
Disney???
TDK!?

I'm sorry..this are not crappy little companies...

Microsoft is by far the largest of the HD-DVD Supporters.

Panasonic Bests Toshiba BY FAR

NEC??? Eh...I thought they went out of business honestly.

"
Sony??
Apple??
Dell?? (The Largest computer manufacturer on the planet)
LG (One of the largest Cell phone/Chip makers on the Planet
IBM Lenovo (The largest server/chip maker on the planet)
Pioneer (The Most popular in the CD/DVD Player Market)
Panasonic?? (makes the toughest notebooks on the planet)
Phillips??
Hitachi???
Mitsubishi???
Samsung??
Disney???
TDK!?"

Well Let see. Sony- Getting sued by everyone right now. Apple do I even need to start on that LMAO.
Dell, Yeah they have one. I have a feeling this will change.
LG Who? They are still here? I thought they died years ago.
IBM is still swaying, you can't say they are 100% on Blu-Ray yet.
Pioneer has out lived their days, name ONE good product that they make anymore. Nothing last more than a few months and the quality is junk.
Panasonic has always made low end junk and are only stocked in low end stores such and Big/Odd Lots and Wal-Marts.
Phillips is a has-been.
Hitachi, I don't hear or see much from them any more other than a comical representation of an idea.
Mitsubishi has ALWAYS been junk and they over charge for it.
Samsung were the best for a long time, but now they don't do anything, but sell crappy phones for the most part.
Disney... LMAO Yeah ok.
TDK Um they are the worst company listed here.

EDIT: Here you go this is for your Dell.
http://arstechnica.com/n...post/20051005-5393.html

BTW Toshiba is the #1 DVD Player maker and Pioneer is junk. Sony Is not the #1 Console maker, MS took that from them.

EDIT: Oh yeah and the second largest company Intel is on the HD-DVD side.

If you think M$ has taken the Game console from Sony your an idiot, Sony just broke the 100Million Mark for the PS2 8 days AFTER the X360 Launch.

Yeah, people had to buy new ones several times they kept breaking and they had already spent all that money on the games.

Pansonic is FAR from low-end (That's why their notebooks blew away toshiba's in comparason tests)
Plus, Toshiba is jsut stupid for supporting HD-DVD when they co-devoloped the PS3.

Apple is MOST supported by Hollywood and graphics industry.

LG - open up your cell phone... So what if it's a Sanyo phone, or a Nokia...Take alook at the chip :)

Pioneer makes a quality "low-end" product (but I do agree they are crap lol)

Phillips ...well yeah I'll give you that one..

Samsung is still a great company. Have you seen their new sprint phones??

Disney, you can cut them out just because they're a kids movie company, they are one of the largest companies of the Film Industry

Mitsubishi makes screens for most of the TV's on the market.

Oh, Just like People having to ship back or return their X360 because they kept crashing?? lol

Have you seen the battery life on the new Sprint phones? LOL
I have Palm Treo 650 and I don't think that it has anything from LG in it. Most chips I see are Qualcomm and Samsung not LG.

Given there are "new release issues" with XBox 360, but the PS2 had problems that still have not been fixed. It has been what like 5 years?

maniakmx3,

Thanks for the debate, it was fun. :-)

Gawd21

The XBOX has similar issues too!!
Windows XP - Almost 5 years old, Still has issues
Windows 2000 - Almost 7 years old, Still has issues

Dude... M$ isn't exactly perfect either lol

Yeah dude! we should be lawyers! :P

There is a difference in hardware and software. The PS2 was constructed so poorly that it would even scratch the DVD's They had to replace an untold # of the roms.

Yes, The Xbox had a power cord problem too, but that was short lived.

Yeah, I have a friend that went back to school to become one and he is wanting me to follow. I really don't want to get into that much lol.

What issues? Apart from security issues which cannot be categorized as bugs given that all OSs will have security issues, how well known they are depends on the OSs popularity.

Windows XP and 2k are superb OSs. Give me 1 critical issue that you have had with these OSs please. I work with both, which are installed on over 5000 computers here at work, and we hardly have OS issues, only app and hardware issues.

Never know dude! you could become a lawyer for the MPAA or the RIAA! You can make millions!! :P HAHAHAA

gsbrock, your history is askew (and no, this ain't Kevin Smith). How could laserdiscs be posited as a replacement for videotape when they were introduced in the mid to late 70s at the same time as half-inch consumer videotape (first Sony's Beta, then JVC/Panasonic's VHS). Laserdisc failed simply because it was blindsided by the recording ability of videotape, plain and simple.

Disney is "a kids movie company"??? Did Rip Van Winkle write this comment or what? You mean the Disney that owns ESPN and ABC and has been making adult movies as well for the past 20 years?

People like you think HP backed out. People in the know realize HP is posturing as a negotiating tactic.

Hey fellas, honestly, I'm trying to respond to set this guy straight, but I can't stop laughing at the nonsense he's spewing. I mean, where do you start if he really believes what he says? Let us all join hands as we pray for his salvation ...

Yeah, you tell 'em, good gawd-y miss lawdy and newest member of Mensa. You tell 'em about those washed-up companies like JVC, which in fact is owned by a "crappy little, washed-up company" called Panasonic. Next.

"Sony Is not the #1 Console maker, MS took that from them."

I'm with you, pal. Why read and research the facts when you more easily can just make up your own that have no relation to reality?

Where are your links showing that you have any understanding about anything other than how to laugh at your own jokes?

Umm maybe you should look some information up.

Again you need to look some info up a little, you are looking more and more like an a** every post you make. You have no understanding about anything other that how your a** hurts are your you sleep with your little friends.

Go look on gamefaq's

Oh...so you're with the people that are in "the know". In other words, Blu-ray supporters are smarter than HD-DVD supporters, and nobody who supports HD-DVD is in "the know", right? Are Microsoft and Intel not in "the know" either? Is everyone who doesn't think like you a moron? Just some thoughts to ponder.

Dell has not voiced its opinion on this matter in quite some time, so they might be easily swayed.

By the way, IBM Lenovo is not the largest server/chip maker on the planet.

Now the original IBM on the other hand, maybe.

Um there were a lot of reasons it failed, and the real push for lasterdiscs wasn't really until the mid 80's.

It failed cause it was bulky (LP size), expensive (50+ a disc), non recordable, etc... there were alot of reasons. On the flip side, it offered surround sound and better resolutions than VHS.

You were doing so well, right up to here...

Bunch of Sony haters? With what has happened recently with that infamous rootkit with CDs I don't hate Sony. I have total disrespect for that company. Should Sony find a way to copy protect its Cds? Yes. Should it install a rootkit on my computer? Absolutely and irrevocably NO! After such a blatant disrespect of its customers one is left wondering if they aren't doing the same things with their DVDs, no matter how good or how bad the recording technology they would use.

Although I believe HD-DVD will win in the end, I will have to disagree with your points here--JVC and Pioneer may have made some "crappy" products, but they are far from being "crappy" companies.

Sadley, dvdj is right on this one--Sony still has higher profits from video game console sales than Microsoft. However one might argue that more games are written for MS Windows...but that's really an impossible comparison as they also work on a Sony VAIO PC. Again for the record I will not buy a PS3...

Sadly? You are sad when someone is right? Now, THAT is sad.

Who cares about fox?

That's a dence comment...

That's a "dense" vocabulary

They can have all the pre-judgement they want.

They are the ones to "lose face" when they ship content on HD-DVD.

Probably the biggest advantage that Blu-Ray has going for it is PS3. PS3 will put within months something like 5 million Blu-Ray players in the homes of people who then won't need to buy an HD-DVD player because they already have a standard-DVD/Blu-Ray player. That sounds like a nice head-start to me.

I thought it was originally said that Xbox 360 would have HD-DVD. Can anyone confirm that it was there and dropped? Or am I imagining things?

The X360 "may" support HD-DVD OR Blu-Ray in the future....As of right now it only Supports DVD.

But I agree with Heat_Fan1 on this one, Blu-Ray is going to have a Huge advantage with the launch of the PS3.

I don't know how correct this is, but Sony is planning to launch 1 Million PS3 Units in March. We all know that they will be sold out in the US. within hours. So that's already 1 Million Blu-Ray players in homes, so you know that those customers right there will end up with BD-Rom as their Nex-gen DVD.

As of right now, the PS3 is vaporware. There arent even DEVKITS ready yet. How Sony plans to have this console ready for march is beyond me. BTW the intial launch will be in Asia, the US launch will be a few months later.

Furthermore, saying that the PS3 will sell 1million units in a month is pretty optimistic since I doubt they will have 1million units in store on launch specially since manufacturing has not even begun.

The PS3 launch will be WORLDWIDE, not in japan first, then US, then Europe, etc. The console will launch world wide... So if XBOX can sell 400,000 consoles just in the US, what makes you think the PS3 (the most anticipated game console in the world) won't sell 1 Million in the entire world?? Also, "Sony" you know...the company that makes the playstation console? yeah I'm sure you've heard of them. THEY are the ones who announced the March release. Not some random person who thinks they know what they are talking about...

Yeah, they announced a march release, great... so when I actually see them being shipped to stores for a march release I'll believe it :) Like most products, release dates are "set" months before they can truely be set...

Boycott Sony All their products! Sony S*cks!

The console will launch in Japan first, you can quote me, and bet any sum of money on that. It is how all playstaion launches have been and this one will follow suit.

Sure go ahead, belive a company that told you that Toy story could be rendered in realtime on the PS2, that the Rootkit was not phoning home and didnt pose a security threat, that the videos shown at E3 were of actual ingame footage when later it was proven that they were pre rendered junk.

THERE IS NO WAY in hell this POS makes it to stores before fall of 2k6. If it does, it will be in very small quantities due to the fact that manufacturing has yet to begin, and the Devkits are not finalized. For those of you that dont know crap about development, what this means is that if the Devkits are not done, its because the specifications of the machine are not done, and or they have slammed into some heavy hurdles writting the APIs for the Cell processor.

BTW a little advice before you go spweing out incoherent un substantiated crap, do a little research. You can find thousands of articles on the PS3, its limitations, the launch date woes, and the reason many experts belive that it will lose a chunk of its market share to microsoft, due to the release date, and price point, aswell as the fact that programming for the PS3 is a bigger pain in the ARSE than the PS2, and that my friends was a nightmare on launch.

Didn't say I was going to buy one, I'm not. (I love my 360, it's been a great system to own so far and it looks like it's only going to get better) I just said I'd believe their release date when I see it =P

So what if they sell a million?

Do you have any idea how small a market 1 million is? There are over 200 Million dvd players on this planet. The quality is good on DVD and i don't even see people switching over to either blu-ray or hd-dvd very fast. I bet downloadable movies are what will be the 'next big thing'. click and watch.

Then there's the price per gigabyte. You'll have 1 terabyte hard-drives for 100€/$ by the time blue-ray/hd-dvd hits the market. I know I'm not going to be buying either format..

Even now all my CDs and DVDs are stacked in boxes on the attic and I ****ing hate to go down to the rentals and have to take a movie back when it's crappy weather or I'm having a hangover. Not to mention the scratches on a rental dvd. We need legal downloads and rentals of movies.. I bet iTunes will change name to iMovies in a year or so.

Well, luckly Blu-Ray players will offer backward compatability for DVDs. PS3 is a prime example of that.

Now when I was 1 Million consoles, I am talking about the inital launch, not over time, The PS2 has Sold over 100 Million Consoles in 5 years, so just put those numbers together.

Also, I never said this means Blu-Ray WILL be the nex-gen, But I did say that it will "Help" blu-ray.

I don't know who is going to win in the war, as stated in all news articles that there is NO CLEAR Winner...

"Sure go ahead, belive a company that told you that Toy story could be rendered in realtime on the PS2, that the Rootkit was not phoning home and didnt pose a security threat, that the videos shown at E3 were of actual ingame footage when later it was proven that they were pre rendered junk"

ok, I will. You go ahead and belive M$ is so great when they promise with every product they introduce is faster and better, when all they do is have more bugs and issues then it's predicessor.

M$ isn't perfect either.

Well lets see. Whats faster Windows NT or Windows XP?

Microsoft aint no angel i will agree to that. But given Sonys long history of screwing customers on every corner Ill take my chances with uncle bill.

Also if MS is so bad, how come the DRM that Microsoft proposes is a more laxed consumer friendly version compared to the one that Bluray has?

As far as bugs and issues, unless you work in Software development you have no reason to judge. Software development is never done, specially when we are dealing with an operating system.

Here in my office, we have over 5000 Workstations all running either Windows 2k or Windows XP, we keep very good tally on what problems workstations have. 99% of the problems fall under the category of application or hardware failure, 1% is OS problems.

Sure you wont find so many security issue fixes or problems with Linux and Apple as compared to Microsoft. Well lets see, 90% of the applications on the market are made for Windows, so were are all the hackers going to concentrate on? Apple? Linux? WIndows offcourse, since it is the one that resides on most pcs. Linux has a lack of software support so you will find less conflict between the OS and the software, and mac is a locked system and has a lack of software compared to Windows.

All of you Sony bashers will be really disappointed to know that the vast majority of the consumer public these days does not buy CDs. We can agree on that, I think. And, frankly, past a certain age, even those who buy, let's say, Sony classical and other older-demographic CDs could care less about rootkit and copying and all that crapola. Most are not even aware of the overheated controversy. They just listen to the CDs. They don't own iPods. They don't have the free time to spend downloading and porting over and creating playlists and on and on ad nauseum. So the percentage of people who complain about rootkit and who will bother to "boycott" any Sony products is so small, Sony will hardly notice it on its bottom line. You can take that to the bank.

Microsoft never said for certain HD DVD would be in X360. And it isn't. The analysts interpreted that as MS hedging its bet in case BD prevailed in the format war. Looks like a pretty smart move at this point.

Another perfect post... that show just how retarded you are. Get out of the little shut in box you live in.

A new version o XBox360 is due to be launched next year with HD-DVD.

Any sad muppets that bought one recently, will be out in the cold in few months time, when the new version arrives.

All my posts are perfect, pal. I actually think about what I'm going to write and check my grammar. What a wuss I am, right? It's so uncool to try to act educated, isn't it? Well, chew on this paragraph from Dec. 2 Business Week Online, and maybe you'll try to get out in the world a bit more too, like me. I know it's hard for you to believe that the average, sensible person buys music they enjoy; they don't decide what music to buy based on what label it's on.

>So will the boycott have any effect on Sony's bottom line? Probably not, says Mark Stahlman, an analyst at investment bank Caris & Co. The Japanese giant had $63 billion in revenue in 2004. And while some artists have seen a drop-off in album sales, the impact on Sony BMG may be limited, says Russ Crupnick, an analyst at market consultancy NPD Group. "For a vast majority of consumers, the loyalty is to the artist, not the record company," he notes.<

don't they get it? nothing is uncrackable. People who buy retail will continue buying it regardless of price. People who private will private regardless if it only cost a dollar. And coder will crack it for the heck of it.

Why not just think in term of the consumers and try to get more People buy it.

All I can say is that the consumer is the one getting screwed here, I don't care about Sony's DRM deal, or M$'s deal either. But the Nex-Gen DVD Battle is gonna be a clear loss for the consumer. So far from what I have read on News Threads that Blu-Ray so far is the clear winner with more companies backing it, but HD-DVD is only alittle behind, with not as many companies backing it, but Larger companies backing it.

All I can advise is don't buy either until there is a winner.

I myself may end up supporting Blu-Ray products due to the PS3's support for BD-Rom. I am planning on purchasing a PS3, it is also a blu-ray player, so Blu-ray will end up being my choice in the Nex-Gen DVD war.

You go, maniakmx3. You're one of the very few on this thread who gets it. 95% of the laughable comments here are rooted in misinformation. The IT/CE/Hollywood consortium behind these two formats just needs to get its act together and come to market with a single standard. Anything else is B.S.

How can it be a clear winner when not one has been sold.
Because these companies are backing it doesn't make it a winner it makes it a gamble.
We make the winers and lossers.

Your loss, Fox...

All this tells me is that I'm not buying a HD-DVD or Blue-ray DVD player for about 3-5 years.

I'm not getting sucked into a format only to see it die. Now with movies costing $15-20 a piece (I'm sure they'll raise the prices of them to even newer heights). And considering they'll be DRMed so i won't be able to copy them to another format. You wouldn't mind letting me send them back to you for a free replacement in the winning format would you? I didn't think so.

So all you companies can keep duking it out. I'll sit back with my good-ol DVD format that i know will be around for atleast 20 more years. And when that time eventually comes when a format is *OFFICIALLY* selected across the board, I may upgrade, but only if i have access to copy them. Otherwise I don't care about the few extra pixels I'll be able to see.

OK, wicketr, I can also see you know what you're talking about. I'm afraid jedite and gawd21 are lost causes, but somebody has to provide comic relief.

Oh we are so lost? You, are the one that is still holding on hoping that beta will come back?

Well said! They keep screwing around with the standards and all the "burn and return" folks keep building movie collections. Works for me!

gawd21 does it again! If you absorbed what I am trying to educate you about, lost soul, you'd know by now Beta never left. It is still in widespread use by pro videographers. But don't let the facts get in your way.

Bad move for FOX. Sony has already dammed themselves, and now Fox is willingly taking their side. I guess they want to go down too.

I think it's pretty much a done deal. Blu-Ray will win out here, but the lack of iHD may hurt Media Centers and the like. I'm interested so see how all this plays out.

Don't worry about it. Part of the ultimate rapprochement between BDA and HD DVD will be that BDA will adopt iHD. It's a more intuitive programming language -- akin to web design and HTML -- where Java requires complex and laborious code writing. Even BD backer Disney wants iHD, because it co-developed it with Microsoft. iHD will be the standard for next-gen digital disc.

Well, since Microsoft already owns the DVD player market this may be a war over DVD's standards fought in areas other then movie disks.

When I say this, I am referring to the PC market. With 85%-90% market share, and there being more PC's with DVD drives then one single manufacture of DVD players out in the market, they have incredible strength to sway the market in one direction or the other.

Also, when CD's were released, their first big entry into the consumer field was either techno-geeks buying the newest craze (Same group that bought Laserdisc's and betamax) or computer users. IT org's loved CD's because it allowed them software installs without having to switch between 15 floppy disks (Not to mention 1.44 floppy disks could be damaged easier in the hundreds of times they would be inserted into different drives).

I have to believe the reason CD players prices came down as quick as they did were from companies like Dell, Gateway, and IBM releasing computers with CD drives. BluRay and HDDVD both will be used as data storage for software in higher numbers then anything else for the first period in their lives. (In this case, PS3 is included in this, since a PS3 disk is not a movie, rather storage for a game)

If Microsoft says that they will have support for HDDVD built into their OS's, companies like Dell and others will release computers with the drives in them, dropping the price in the process.

I can easily see Microsoft releasing larger software packages like MSDN and Windows Vista Ultimate (Media Center) on HDDVD, causing at least servers and Media Center PC's to have the drive in them. Microsoft would probably even take the increased disk creation price out of their bottom line, or even having the software cost less in that format just to give it a jump start.

In this market, Microsoft can also throw large amounts of $$$ into it, much like they did with the Xbox just to gain market share. $5 Billion dollars was lost on Xbox, but it still didn't stop them from releasing a second version of the system. If Sony had lost $5 Billion on the first Playstation, do you think there would have even been a PS2?

Microsoft could in theory do a rebate style assist to hardware manufactures, with something like, we'll give you $200 for the first 10 million HDDVD players made just to drop the cost for the consumers, which would "only" cost them $2 billion (Some of this would be recouped from licensing their DRM for movies, say $2 a video) If the 10 million consumers buy say 5 movies, and with a licensing fee of 2$ a movie, that’s 5% of the cost back, and with a lot of future growth potential. This may not seem like a great business idea, but then they have growth potential there.

Not the mention the fact that Sony themselves sell PC's, what is it going to look like if/when they sell Viao's with a HDDVD drive in them? Or since they use Windows in their own company will they end up buying PC's in the future with HDDVD drives in them? This it may send mixed messages to their partners in this, possibly causing descent in their ranks.

Intel is another piece of this, since they will probably be one of the companies producing the logic components for the drives at some point. They also have money to invest into getting the product out to market quickly.

Overall, when it comes down to it, I think the biggest area of uncertainty will be internationally. BluRay will probably take the Japanese market, but the US and Europe is a toss up. Asia can go either way, but I would imagine the looser DRM planned for HDDVD would probably appeal more the Chinese market then BluRay.

Is there anything other than Blu-Ray? I though HD-DVD was a dead duck already.

no way, HD-DVD is a Microsft collaboration.. Blu-ray is the one that is dead.

It's pretty much of a stalemate at this point. HP really stuck it to BDA (Blu-ray Disc Association) when, at the behest of iHD developer Microsoft, HP told BDA if it doesn't adopt iHD, then we (HP) are out of here. It's like a chess game that is far from over. But fun to watch.

Uh, right. That's why Sony is hard at work already converting movies to BD. Nothing dead around here other than some brains maybe.

BTW, "collaboration," like the tango, takes two. Is MS collaborating with itself? You left out that small detail.

It's a good thing I already hate Fox.

This was a bad move on their part IMO.

Yeah, I think so too. I didn't read your post until after I posted mine.

No doubt Rupert will be losing sleep over what you think.

Ultimately, we will eat whatever these fine, upstanding corporate geniuses spoonfeed us. At least in America, where we b**** and moan, but take it posteriorly as routine. They raise taxes, screw us via cell and cable billing practices, cut our insurance and raise our costs, etc. etc. etc. They'll force manufacturers to make dual-tech devices to settle the stupid fighting (yes, just like DVD+/-R, etc.) and we'll pay more because of it. But being good Americans, we'll do it and b**** about it at the same time.

I don't understand your comment.

@ ds0934, I replied to the wrong post.

I don't just b***h about things, I boycott. I don't buy any fast-food other than Whitecastles once every few months. I don't buy any product that I don't think is priced fair, and I won't over pay for my cell phone or cable. I will tell them to stick it first. Most places will either give you what you want or you find one that will. If I can't find one that will then I just won't use that service at all. It's no be deal. I world isn't going to end if I miss a call or my kids miss a cartoon. Heck I even have the Xtreme DSL from Bellsouth for $25 USD, I will not pay 1 iota more. I feel that most people think that the world would end or they would just simply die if everything didn't happen right now and the way they want it. Bah I say bah.

C'mon, wincement. You must have heard that "the government" recently passed a law that "forces" CE companies to make dual-format devices. It was all over the news. How did you miss that? Why else would a company make a dual-format device? To sell it to the masses? How absurd.