["While removing search results is inconsistent with Google's mission, providing no information (or a heavily degraded user experience that amounts to no information) is more inconsistent with our mission," the company said in a statement.]

What this really should have said was...

""While removing search results is inconsistent with Google's mission, making money is more important.," ]

Because when it all comes down to it, that's really all that matters here. Not whether or not certain information can be presented to a particular audience, but how much money Google stands to make through adverts and the like. They probably don't care what the users see, just so long as they click through the ads.

Who appointed Google the saviour of China? Why the hell should they have to be the ones to stand up? They ae not a human rights organization, they are an Information Technology Company. Nothing more, nothing less.

In the US, they have the legal right to refuse subpoena and take the issue to court. In China, there is no such alternative. It's either follow the rules, or leave. Since it's not their job to change the rules...and they obviously have reason to want to be there, why shouldn't they?

Altruistic or monetary motives shouldn't even be an issue.

"obviously have reason to want to be there, why shouldn't they? Altruistic or monetary motives shouldn't even be an issue"

You're right if you disregard that by 'being there' and thus conforming to the communist governments rules, they are supporting a government with no regard for human rights.

So you support the flagrant disregard for human rights if a 'reason to be' there (anywhere) can be put forth? Nike, Walmart etc had a reason to be manufacturing in a country where they could pay workers very little to work in substandard work environments. Your stance indicates that you would support this kind of thing because the companies in question 'want to be there' and 'altruistic or monetary motives' should not be an issue.

The '...why shouldn't they...' has been answered in case you missed it.

"they are supporting a government with no regard for human rights."

By that judgement, we are supporting communist forms of governement on this planet by staying here. Useless argument if ever there was.

"So you support the flagrant disregard for human rights..."

I support no such thing. I support any and all organizations that exist to bring about change in the PRC, but I do *not* believe Google is one of those organizations and frankly resent that they are apparently being expected to do so.

"Nike, Walmart etc had a reason to be manufacturing in a country where they could pay workers very little to work in substandard work environments. Your stance indicates that you would support this kind of thing because the companies in question 'want to be there' and 'altruistic or monetary motives' should not be an issue."

Manufacturing companies. Completely different, my friend, they are employing them and are a direct cause of human rights violations. Google is doing no such thing. I can't believe you even brought that up...did you bother to think about it first?

"The '...why shouldn't they...' has been answered in case you missed it."

Do not doubt that I understand your point of view. I just absolutely, and without hesitation, disagree with it.

I know :)

Repeating what I have written below (with additions):-

Google is an ICT company. But this ICT company has one unique thing that set them apart from other ICT companies like Yahoo!, Microsoft and AOL.

That thing is the "Do No Evil" motto, which their presidents has already stated that it even supersedes their shareholders interest. That motto ensures that Google will keep their promise not to screw their users, and to keep that pledge even at the expense of their shareholders.

If Microsoft or Yahoo do what Google is doing, I will keep my mouth shut, after all they are publicly-traded companies with the interest of their shareholders at the highest priority.

But, Google following the rules of PRC clearly violates that sacred motto, and that's why I think Google should just keep out of China if they have to do things that violates that motto.

They can make money, although indirectly, via Baidu. Baidu is so big in China it wasn't even funny. It takes Google market share despite being newer to the industry, and also Google's search database being better (this is something Yahoo and MSN are not able to do). Google can still make money off China without dirtying their hands.

Google doesn't have to be scared of Microsoft and Yahoo! in China. MSN Search is almost non-existant and Yahoo has probably 10-20% marketshare and have to fight for Baidu's scraps with the likes of Great Wall and Sina.com.

The only thing Yahoo! and Microsoft do better than Google at China is Yahoo! Messenger and MSN Messenger.

In other words, Google can make money without getting into China via Baidu. All they have to do is to expand their existing investment. Thus there are no need to sacrifice their principle just to get into China.

What could they have done to win then? I still don't think pulling out would be in the best interests of anyone.

Option 1:
Google pulls out, PRC wins. Hands down, no question. PRC wins=evil.

Option 2:
Google stays in, is forced by PRC to censor content, but does this while telling the people that they are being censored by the PRC. PRC wins, but Google takes a swing=less evil.

There's no out here for Google where, as strictly as you hold to that motto, they can't *not* be evil.

[edited to change can to can't in the last sentence. Darn "'t" key stopped working. ;)]

As I say, expanding more into Baidu will give them moeny if that what they wants. Pulling out is the best course for Google. Whether Google is in or out, PRC will still be in power. But if Google stays in, Google loses because they sacrifice their principle for money.

BTW, other search engines also tell people that they censor search results, I don't see how Google is less evil in this one. I will always maintain that Censoring = EVIL! If they do that when there are other ways to get revenue from China means that they are sacrificing their own motto.

being here at all is a good thing because information is hard to censor no matter how hard you try. Look at the problems google has with syphoning crap sites from the good results. information is power and their market share in china has improved if not surpassed baidu.

i don't like it, but this is not the end of the battle.

Seems fine to me. It's like:

There's a starving child with a lording guy with a gun standing over him. If you give the child any food, the guy with the gun will take lots of it, and the child will still be quite hungry. Do you give the child any food, or do you not feed him out of principle?

There ya go. As soon as it flips from information to food, I bet EVERYONE's opinion that google is evil would flip to "the bas**** walked away without even TRYING to help that child!". :D

Evil is subjective. Everyone's beliefs are different. 99% of us would be found hypocrites under scrutiny.

um... in THIS case the guy with the gun IS already feeding the child. Google does not hold the majority of traffic for search in China. Your point appears irrelevant.

Google has a better chance of bringing in western content, assuming they even want western content.

I visited the website and did not specifically see any links being changed to govt. websites, so I assume that the government firewall just intercepts any bad links, and Google just tries to remove links that are already blocked.

"The US had two botched presidential elections and not a peep from anyone."
"Americans still "vote" without any real means of self audit."
"With repect to Western ideas of liberty, they simply do not care."

Communism good, freedom bad.
These are the rantings of kids who ride on the "special" bus to school.

So much for Google being your champion for freedom and justice.

Google stands up to the U.S., but bows to Chairman Mao.

Communism is good, though humans somehow manage to fark up the real ideals 100% of the time.

Communism isn't a direct comparison to freedom. It should be compared to Democracy.

Freedom(America - Democracy) can be compared to Slavery(America - Democracy).

Edit: Don't become a writer; unless you want to write for one of these online news sites.

"Communism is good, though humans somehow manage to fark up the real ideals 100% of the time."

So basically you're saying that Communism is good, but only if the people that run it are perfect? What good is a government that requires perfection to run? There are always the human elements of greed and power. Democracy allows the people to oust those who are in the government, while Communism treats naysayers as criminals.

I used to get upset at this sort of thing before numerous conversations with Chinese citizens.

With repect to Western ideas of liberty, they simply do not care. There are lots of holes in the Great Firewall, and they know how to slip through them. They know what we do about their oppressive government.

Their approach to their government is not unlike Americans. Maybe their government is engaging in immoral military activity to secure their economic welfare or their government is spying on them. But most say it's for their own good, their "safety", and the others, meh, the government is big and unstoppable, what are ya gonna do?

Well put!

Yeah, there are methods of bypassing Great Firewall, but they are not reliable, not usable long-term, hard for non-techies to follow and often than not, slow. Plus, when caught, that gulag near the Russia border awaits you. CCP puts the Great Firewall at a higher priority, then, let's say, arresting

What's Chinese people thinks about their government is really not relevant here. It is what Google do to gain favors from CCP that is blatantly clashed with their own motto.

I don't generally care if MSN or Yahoo! do the same thing because after all, they are accountable to their shareholders and they never actually active in denying that fact. But I will not say the same about Google, who has strongly claimed that the "Do No Evil" motto lies even higher than their own shareholders interests.

"However on the Chinese site, users would be informed if search results had been deleted."

And there it is, that is just fine with me. In a way, it's saying HEY YOU SILLY CITIZENS YOUR GOVT WANTS TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN AND CAN'T SEE. So what's so bad about that, if enough people get fed up it's their responsibility to change their country, not google's. I see no problem here.

Yikes!! After reading some of the comments, i can sort of see why the Cathay government censors so much.

Who cares about Google.
The US had two botched presidential elections and not a peep from anyone.
Americans still "vote" without any real means of self audit.
The jokes on you fool!
Me Chinese...
Me play joke...
Me put pee-pee in your coke!

"The US had two botched presidential elections and not a peep from anyone.
Americans still "vote" without any real means of self audit"

Not a peep huh? I still hear people around me say "Bush shouldn't have been in the White House in the first place" when there's ever news about Iraq, terrorists, or whatever. I wish...

By peep, he means nothing audible that makes it on the news; like riots, terrorist cells, and people devoted to bringing down the corrupt government.

Hey, they're all corrupt. Canada's government has a history of making friends lots of $$$, but this latest Bush regime of America has started wars.

This is a little like government which forced the creation of Windows XP Reduced Media Edition, so I think Google should name it Google Reduced Truth Edition.

nice.

Too bad it's probably be censored.

"Google's statements about respecting online privacy are the height of hypocrisy in view of its strategy in China," said Reporters Without Borders (RWB) in a press release on Wednesday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4647398.stm

"Reporters Without Borders"

Cool. I get to add them to my ever-growing list of journalists that don't think before they print.

Whoopie!

Makes me wonder how many folks actually know the *meaning* of the word, "Hypocrisy."

You have to chunk up your thinking a couple levels to find the common denominator between the 2 issues... where the word 'hypocrisy' then fits. Surely you don't expect journalist groups to do ALL your thinking and analysing for you... ;)

Also keep in mind that news sites like bbc will pull a quote out of context... so don't judge RWB to quickly. Not that I'm defending them. I don't know them any better than I know how to change the spark plug's in my car...

Thought about it plenty. I can see where they get the idea, but they fail to follow through with the thought long enough to see the other side.

Much like many folks here, actually.

Ok so every major news network followed through this evening... and ended up saying the same thing... basically that if Google applied the same principal that they ARE applying in the USA, they would be OUT of the China search market and that the corporate bottom line is what they are falling back on in China (CNN tv news).

Just exactly what principle would that be, then? I'd *really* like to know.

Then I'll back off and let you think about it yourself. The realization will be deeper if you reach it yourself rather than me telling you.

lmao...

Forgive me if I don't bother.

WHAT?!?! Google doing the exact same thing that Microsoft and others have done?! Say it ain't so!

They're doing what it takes to continue doing business...

Well then they need to change their motto.

Yeah...cuz "nothing" is always better than "something" when "priciples" and "ideals" are involved.

People can't educate themselves on ideals and principles. It takes access to information. Google left that available to them.

How Eeeevil.

Agreed.

They don't need Google to get information. They have other search engines. Point discredited.

Riiiight. And since they have all these other wonderful search engines, Google = bad.

Got it.

Right, it is all about the mighty dollar. They don't care where it comes from, only that it keeps coming. Wow, and to think they did this all for $1 in salary. Everything else was petty cash! How many MOTTO's have you seen destroyed over the course of a companies life.

Motto's start the business going, but then greed takes over and the rest is history. I don't fault them for it, but wish they would shut up about their claims of doing good. PLEASE!

Google was able to smuck a little more but* than MSN or Yahoo and they got the bill. I hardly see why China even needs a search engine if you are blocked from most of the sites on the Internet anyways. Once you take out Porn and Political sites, you only have eBay - and a lot of people are corrupt there as well. China should just put up a homepage that has links to the sites they want them to see and be done.

It is also funny to see how some take pot shots at Bush and claim that he is responsible for all our problems. Wake UP! Little Bush cannot tie his shoes without some very important people and groups giving him permission. If he did, did mind you, he would end up like a very famous President - JFK. Power begets power. If you have it, someone else will try to take it from you. The goal is to make others believe they have it - huh, this sounds like democracy in America. That is another topic.

LOL

Google should have told China to pound salt and stayed steadfast about not censoring.

Dang.....this stinks.

Something to hide, eh google? Or is it the privacy of CHINA you care about more than America? Yeah, Communism does have more freedom than Capitalism or Democracy apparently...

EDIT: Skimming the article again. Disregard what I said (left it so PC_Tool's point can be understood). As far as Capitalism and Democracy I mentioned those because of UK countries and such--doesn't matter now, but...geez I hate it when I'm stupid.

I'm shocked you reacted that way.

Where does privacy enter into this? This is about censorship. The two are not the same.

And what country are you referring to exactly with words like "Capitalism and Democracy?" The US may have one, but definately not the other...

Read my edited post...assuming I didn't mess that up too

:lol:

Happens to everyone, man. Good to know my shock was justified.

before:

Google.com: Sporadically available site that sometimes came back with results, and was sometimes censored.

after:

Google.com: Same as above.
Google.cn: Fast, reliable search engine which will warn you if some results have been filtered out on your search for tiennemen square.

after = before + 1.

It's better now than it was. Google had a choice between this...or being blocked completely. At least this way they have access to *some* information...and anything that passes through uncaught.

before:

Google is not the biggest search engine in China..... (behind Baidu if you don't know)

Google Executive: Why we are not no.1 in China, the fastest expanding Internet audience on this planet, unlike almost anywhere else?

Google Minion: Well, you see, sometime the Great Firewall blocks our website, and when it wasn't, the website is slow because we doesn't have servers in the country. Plus, it is easier to find MP3s in the biggest China's search engine Baidu.

Google Executive: Well, we have to put servers in China then.

Google Minion: But to do so, we will have to censor our search results accordingly to local laws. Censoring = EVIL! Did we really have to trample all over our "Do No Evil" motto just to become no.1 in China?

Google Executive: Hell yeah!

=========

In other words, "Do No Evil" motto is being trampled by the greed of money in the end.

I assume Baidu censors?

If they're so far ahead of Google, what has Google to gain with this?

Baidu censors of course. But unlike Google, Baidu co-presidents (if they have more than one) don't runs around trumpeting "Do No Evil" slogans or something.

Do you know Google has a share in Baidu? Google can do better if they just expand their 4 percent share in Baidu than to bring their own service to China while censoring it.

I still think Google should stay out of China accordingly to their "Do No Evil" principle, while expanding their holding in Baidu. Meanwhile, just let Yahoo! and MSN do their operations in China while licking Chinese Communist Party officials rear ends, which will damage their own reputation, and subsequently, their businesses. For Google to do the same thing as those 2 really make the mockery of the "Do No Evil" principle.

Do no evil in the land of the free.

;)

Actually, to think about it, it's a valid point.

Who appointed Google the saviour of China? Why the hell should they have to be the ones to stand up? They ae not a human rights organization, they are an Information Technology Company. Nothing more, nothing less.

In the US, they have the legal right to refuse subpoena and take the issue to court. In China, there is no such alternative. It's either follow the rules, or leave. Since it's not their job to change the rules...and they obviously have reason to want to be there, why shouldn't they?

Altruistic or monetary motives shouldn't even be an issue.

Google is an ICT company. But this ICT company has one unique thing that set them apart from other ICT companies like Yahoo!, Microsoft and AOL.

That thing is the "Do No Evil" motto, which their presidents has already stated that it even supersedes their shareholders interest. That motto ensures that Google will keep their promise not to screw their users, and to keep that pledge even at the expense of their shareholders.

If Microsoft or Yahoo do what Google is doing, I will keep my mouth shut, after all they are publicly-traded companies with the interest of their shareholders at the highest priority.

But, Google following the rules of PRC clearly violates that sacred motto, and that's why I think Google should just keep out of China if they have to do things that violates that motto.

If you define it that narrowly, then you are correct.

It was not my definition. It was defined by Larry Page and Sergey Brin. That motto really bites them back this time.

As I commented above: Evil is subjective.

In Google's founder definition, Evil = something or an act that harm their userbase.

The censorship of search results in Google.cn is clearly detrimental to their Chinese userbase.

Turn down the feds, but ok the commies. Ya; sours the taste for google.

At very least, the results will say "censored", but that's still totally weak. The only thing we can hope for is that google turns off the censoring "on accident" once in a while.

And if they pulled out completely? Would *that* be better for the chinese people?

YES actually. They should pull out completely, and if the PEOPLE dislike that they can blame it on their commie government. Google could promote democratic values by pulling out... but they are choosing to CASH IN... and (to reference the google motto).. "that's evil".

No.

The people can dislike anything they want. The Government has proven time and again, that what the people like and dislike has no impact on how the country is run.

It would be a dis-service to the people and a victory for the government.

By pulling the plug and blacking out a vast majority of the internet to chinese users, they'd be helping? Helping the government make sure they only see what the government *wants* them to see, perhaps. At least this way there's a chance...albeit a small one.

At least Google shows when something is censored. So the people can still bristle at their own sorry national state.

'zactly.

China has more people than any other country, so they're a big target for business. Even if forced Google would have to be threatened with millions or even billions of USD in fines before it would be worth pulling out of China.

Bourgeoisdude, that's my point. It's about the money and not about the service. That's fine, but someone in particular (pctool) seems to want to argue that.

I don't doubt money is part of the issue, but I just don't think it's as black and white as you paint it.

Three cheers for everyone's "hero".

Nothing to see here folks, just another big business. Move along now.

Does anyone share my feelings that this is a glaring contradiction of Google's reasoning behind not providing search data to the US Government in order to protect users and 'not be evil' - not being evil would mean not serving China in this case. In the long run I think Google will not enjoy or benefit by operating under the thumb of the Chinese communist government.

Nope.

2 entirely different scenarios, though both decisions are in the best interests of the people in question.

1.) Google protects the privacy of Americans.

2.) Google keeps it's foot in the door and allows chinese people access to a very good search engine (that does not hide the fact it is censored).

It's not Google's fault the governement is restricting access, yet because they try and give what they can, you all paint them as the bad guys? The PRC are the bad-guys here. Not Google.

I do agree. But the hairs on my neck stand up to think of the issue regardless ;)

Heh... I hear ya. It' ain't "good" no matter how you look at it.

Pretty much anything about the chinese government makes my hairs stand up though.

if there was oil in that country the US would have done something about this a long time ago

What a novel and unique comment. I have never heard of such creativity ever.

Did you attend higher learning to become so enlightened?

Are you the type who complains about wars for oil and 10 min later are found complaining about the price of gas?

I'm disgusted.

As am I.

Me too...I guess some people just don't get the concept of comprimise at the expense of principle when the alternatives leave the people worse off.

Google should just leave China if it trample over their "Do No Evil" principle. Contrary to what you say, it will not leave Chinese worst off. After all, Google is not even the biggest search engine in China.

At least Wikipedia is better than Google in this regard.

"it will not leave Chinese worst off"

Right. Which is why it's worthwhile to focus on the obvious hypocrisy of Google.

Yeha... Competition, especially in a non-free country, just plain sucks, right?

"obvious"

I think you misspelled, "alleged."

It's only obvious if you ignore the fact the two (refulsal to US governement | Censorship in China) have very little, if anything to do with eachother.

Yeah, when it comes at the expense of sacrificing your principles.

well now you're just trolling on this topic. Every major news network drew the parallel... oh, but you're probably more educated and sensible... oh wait no... you're just being a good antagonist... temporarily until overcome by the weakness of your putting antagonism over 'thinking it through' :)

Heh... If I have to be the only opposing viewpoiint in the world, well, I guess that's just a boulder I'll have to keep on pushin' right up that hill.

If you get your facts and take them at face-value from every 'major news network', then I pity you.

*feeds the troll* Happy PC_Tool?

"Comprimise?" Well, compromising at the expense of a powerful ideology (Google's desire to do no wrong) is never acceptable. Why even try to be good if you let human rights abusers like the PRC bully you?

Because they are not a human rights organization?

If not falling in line with the rest of ya'll makes me a troll, a happy troll I be. :)

Saw that response a mile away :)

... forgive me if I felt somewhat justified for hearing the networks repeat my chosen point of view (NOT the other way 'round) - nothing to pity here.