HD DVD: Blu-ray Has Problems

By Aaron Dobbins, BetaNews

January 7, 2006, 5:34 PM

Having finished speaking to Blu-ray, BetaNews sat down with a representative from HD DVD to discuss how the Microsoft-backed format will compete with Blu-ray. Toshiba HD DVD expert Mark Knox gave a thorough explanation of the optical disc drive technology, and said that because of Blu-ray's complicated design, HD DVD will triumph in the format war.

Blu-ray's difficulties, Knox explained, begin with the technology itself, and the idea that its 50GB dual-layer capacity is superior to HD DVD's 30GB. Through the use of better codec technology, such space is not actually needed for high-definition movies. In fact, Blu-ray admitted to BetaNews that most discs won't go beyond the 25GB mark.

Although both formats are being demoed at the show, there has been much speculation about production problems in the Blu-ray camp. Knox confirmed the rumors, and said the problem involves Blu-ray's numerical aperture. In order to store more data on a disc, the laser is bent into a cone shape.

The aperture setting on standard DVD is 0.6, with the setting for HD DVD a slightly smaller 0.65. The additional capacity is provided by the blue laser technology. However, in order to store a full 25GB per layer, Blu-ray has adopted a 0.85 aperture, meaning the divots on the optical layer are smaller and more prone to error.

Additionally, the smaller aperture requires a thinner disc and smaller layer spacing, which makes the medium more vulnerable. Initially, Blu-ray was designed with an external cartridge to protect the disc. But now, the group is utilizing a special protective coating that has not yet been finalized due to disagreements.

Given HD DVD's design, the requirements are similar to standard DVDs, which has eliminated manufacturing problems. Knox said that Blu-ray could see a much higher production flaw rate, as the equipment has minimal room for error during both the medium and content manufacturing, as well as the reading of discs by Blu-ray players.

Additionally, Knox refuted claims that Blu-ray's use of Java for its menu system and interactive features will make development easier. He explained that Blu-ray is actually using an imported specification from Europe named JEM. Due to JEM's large number of instructions, it will be nearly impossible for hardware manufacturers to ensure devices will function under any circumstance.

Knox said that HD DVD can verify that every disc will play on every player, as its iHD specification is DHTML-based rather than built with Java. This also means reduced production time for studios and firms developing the HD content. Hewlett-Packard recently asked Blu-ray to adopt iHD, but the group balked at the demand.

Regarding the notion of limited content in the HD DVD format, BetaNews was told that while HD DVD does not have the number of studios its rival touts, the Blu-ray Disc Association simply wanted "as many logos as possible on their PowerPoint slide."

Knox highlighted the fact that of the American Film Institute's Top 100 movies, more than 60 were from studios supporting the HD DVD format, and a majority of the major-grossing films of the last three years were from those same studios. HD DVD has focused on quality, not quantity, Knox said.

HD DVD recently signed foreign and independent studios, including European filmmaker Studio Canal. By the end of 2006 HD DVD will have roughly 200 titles available, more than Blu-ray has announced thus far.

Another problem plaguing Blu-ray development is a requirement placed on the organization when it signed a deal with Fox Studios. Fox had demanded that high-definition DVDs utilize a stricter copy-protection format than AACS, which is employed by both Blu-ray and HD DVD. While HD DVD rejected the demand, Blu-ray conceded.

Knox said Fox was unhappy with the decision to let consumers watch movies where they please using Mandatory Managed Copy. Managed Copy has become a contentious point in the next-generation DVD battle, with HP demanding that Blu-ray require the technology on all discs. However, as Fox's proprietary DRM will run after AACS, the studio could theoretically restrict such portability.

This proprietary format is also rumored to have delayed the PlayStation 3, which will include a Blu-ray drive for the masses. Pioneer is set to launch a $1,800 Blu-ray player in May.

HD DVD, meanwhile, is launching its first players in March. Toshiba will bring two models to market with price points of $499 and $799 USD. The high-end model will feature improved output connections for home theater aficionados who have componentized systems.

For the average consumer, with surround sound systems "from a box," the $499 HD DVD player will be sufficient, Knox said. Consumers will see the $499 models in stores such as Best Buy, while the $799 player will be available through specialty retailers where home theater buffs can additionally purchase high-end audio systems.

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By slim503

edited Jan 20, 2008 - 7:26 PM

i go a HD dvd player for the hoilday. i was soo excited and ready to watch since months earlier i just purchaced a 42' lcd sharp along with a 7.1 surround sound home theatre. it wasnt untill after getting the player did i hear/ read about the "war" between blue ray and HD dvd's and how only cirtin studio's are only backing one format. all i can ask is why?? if they both use a "blue ray" then what does it matter what formant you buy? maybe im a simpleton when it comes to technology but why does there have to a seperation atleast between studios even? why cant consumers be free to make thier own minds? purchace the type of player that suits their lifestyle and not have to worry about not being able to purchace movies they love because they dont own a compatible player. im all about compition but but shouldnt it be consumers who win? shouldnt it be us who are free to choose? can these companies not work together to find a solution for those who have already invested thousands of dollars into their high definition home veiwing? HD dvd was thrust apon me and if i have to choose then all i can do now i suppose is purchace the movies in the red box even though i might be envious of a movies in another mans arms that are in a blue one, and vise vera.

Score: 0

By gto

edited Nov 27, 2007 - 4:05 PM

Screw blu-ray!! My mother in law bought a blu-ray movie by mistake the other day and tried to play it in her DVD player.... obviously the movie did not play, but now we can't even watch normal dvd's....!!! Has anyone else had this problem?????

Score: 0

By opticstor

posted May 26, 2007 - 12:32 AM

Something being missed here with the whole Blu-ray vs. HD DVD war is the fact that Blu-ray is not only for HD Video. Blu-ray is being heavily marketed to the enterprise storage sector to replace tape and DVD as a viable archiving media. Therefore, just because an HD movie doesn't go beyond 25GB of space doesn't mean there is not a real need for 50GB media or even beyond. If that were true, then why would TDK waste their time and money on developing 200GB Blu-ray media?

Score: 0

By st2166@sccoast.net

edited Dec 10, 2006 - 10:15 AM

Please explain to us common folk why 0.6 blu-ray laser aperature is larger than 0.65 and give us a unit of measurement, or did I misread
the sentence?

Sam Thomas

Score: 0

By mutz37

edited Oct 19, 2006 - 2:05 PM

I have just returned the fifth disc of A View From Space to Buy.com. All five discs will not play on any of my dvd machines including my high def player. Buy.com does not issue credits for opened dvd's, just replacement. I expect number six within the next couple of weeks.
Recently, I experienced the same problem with The Phantom of the Opera in High def. I am sending the second disc back and am asking the vendor to please open and play the disc and know that I will accept a playable disc.
I had asked an Ebay seller if I would be entitled to a full refund including shipping charges for A View From Space, if the disc proved to be defective. Shipping charges were ranging from 7 to 10 dollars while the discs were only in the 5 to 6 dollar range for a high def disc on his site. To date, I have not received any type of replay. Could it be that there are many of these discs out there? I would appreciate hearing from any others that have experienced this problem.

Score: 0

By seecrit

edited Oct 20, 2007 - 2:10 AM

I also experienced the same issues, until I realized I needed to buy a $2000 "Bluray player". If Best Buy would've had that posted somewhere,or if some employee would've told me, I wouldn't have wasted my money. Granite I only opened one, but the fact remains I feel ripped off! Best Buy will be hearing from me!!

Score: 0

By steveyboy

edited Jan 27, 2007 - 7:35 PM

I am having problems playing back a lot of the HD-DVD's, some play perfect some skip/freeze and have audio dropouts. I have a Toshiba XA1 player which has had the firmware V2 update, yet still have this problem. I have a friend who has the same problem as well. Toshiba have been poor in providing any support or suggestions. I think it may be the HD discs themselves and not the player. Regular DVD's play perfect, I would appreciate any feedback or suggestions that anyone might have as I getting very frustrated in not being able to watch "the perfect sound and vision" as the ad claims. Discs with skipping problems have been King Kong, Miami Vice (which also took 4 minutes to load!)Poseidon, Batman Begins, Eagles Farewell Concert, World Trade Center, Full Metal Jacket and the new Superman Returns film to name a few. Can anybody help !

Score: 0

By sradavid

edited May 28, 2006 - 6:42 PM

All I have to say is this:

Sony backed Betamax. Everyone else backed VHS. Betamax didn't win with consumers, but news stuidos used it. Consumers chose VHS over Betamax

Sony backed Mini-Disc. Everyone else backed MP3. Yes, there are still Mini-Disc players out there, but almost everyone has an MP3 player whether it be an iPod, Zen, etc. Consumers chose MP3 players.

Sony's now backing Blu-Ray. Problem is price. Are "average" consumers willing to pay $1000+ for a player, not to mention the higher prices for the media? HD DVD players and media cost less, and have more than enough capacity to store HD movies. Do we really need 50gb+ of space for a movie? I don't think so.

To concluded this, I'm not picking either side, but I'm just saying history has a way of repeating itself. Consumers don't always go for the best technology at the time. They usually outweight the pro's and con's in making a purchase. And price, usually, but not always, has a determining factor.

Score: 0

By yo mamas daddy

edited Aug 5, 2006 - 7:57 PM

HD DVD will only satisfy our present needs for data storage. Blu Ray has more potential for the future. You could be able to back up your hard drive on a single disk, video games will be more exciting and will have more levels and features, consumer movie discs will have more features and footage, and future codecs with higher definitions would be possible without having to change to another media type. Weather you like sony or not, they have created media standards and technologies that we all use on a daily basis. With soon to be lowered production prices and endless possibilities, blu ray is the obvious choice.

Score: 0

By bigswede555

edited Mar 12, 2006 - 4:32 AM

It's so sad that this next generation storage, won't be the leap that we got with the CD-R
Floppy->CD-R = 450 times the storage
CD-R -> DVD-R = 6.5 times the storage
DVD-R -> HDDVD = 3.2 @15gb or 6.4 @ 30gb
while
DVD-R -> BluRay = 5.3 @25gb or 10.6 @ 50 gb

what we needed was something that had around 400x storage of dvd
~= 2 TB per disk, that would have been a leap, but going up all of 3-6x is NOTHING.
So i'm hoping for Blu-ray, but its still a far cry from the tech leap with CD-R's

Score: 0

By arthurn

edited Jun 22, 2006 - 4:37 PM

Perhaps HVD is what you are looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...ographic_Versatile_Disc

Score: 0

By Bulco

edited Feb 24, 2006 - 9:51 AM

Hey nooblars, HD-DVD poons Blu-Ray. PS3 is the biggest suck, X360 is the best pwn. You nublars who like PS3/Blu-Ray are the gayblars. LOLLERBLADES!!! Poont.

Score: 0

By ekenobi

edited Feb 10, 2006 - 3:02 PM

I am only interested in home theatre watching. Don't care for the console players or for PC storage. Seemd PS2 players went bad. My Brother-in-law DVD PS2 player did not work after a while. SO he got a separate DVD player.

I just want to know about backward compatiblilty. Will and HD-DVD/BR play my 165 DVDs? I know HD-DVD will and I have not heard about BR. Looking at price HD-DVD will get my vote. Seems you will not have to much to process H-DVD since the technology is already there. Where BR is from scratch and seems to be way more expensive. Why wait to get BR when the prices finally go down later when you can get HD-DVD cheap now. Price is what matters to me.

And what is with the name calling. Some like one over the other so what!?!

Score: 0

By cdiman7

edited Feb 7, 2006 - 12:19 AM

It's too bad the two formats are incompatible again, (as in home videotape), as every movie past present and future could benefit from being in HD. One solution, make an HD dvd player with 4 slots (for an entire movie), and about 30 lasers to get all the formats, (which both say wil also read std dvds).

Score: 0

By 40s

posted Jan 29, 2006 - 5:31 PM

Everything here is factual, it's the spin on the facts that some may find questionable.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 23, 2006 - 11:32 PM

One thing this article doesn't say, is that there will have to be at least two layers for each HD-DVD movie, so when they make them, they will be roughly twice as expensive than ones with one layer.
EXAMPLE::::::::::
If they costed $1 to make ones with one layer, they would cost $2 for two layer.
If they costed $2 for each, $4 for two layer.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
BD's only need one layer to get sufficient information on them, so they might cost about the same or a little bit more expensive than HD-DVD's.

Score: 0

By Uradox

edited Jan 26, 2006 - 2:52 AM

please provide a source to these claims
All i can find is more speculation on other blogs that the REAL cost is involved in creating DOUBLE SIDED disks not dual layer. Nothing official tho so I take it like a grain of salt.

Score: 0

By jeffa

edited Jan 22, 2006 - 8:47 AM

I can't help being suspicious of Sony and Blu-Ray because of their recent spyware escapade and could they be doing the same to us again by use of Java are they giving us a spyware mechanism. Also price point and monopoly of assets. We all know how much Sony is involved in the Motion Picture business but I just cannot support Sony.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 23, 2006 - 11:07 PM

I see what you are saying.
I was pissed when Sony said they had that spyware mechanism, they said they are sorry, but I don't think that's enough.
Sony shouldn't have a monopoly on the metalic film for BD's.
It just is wrong. That is basically the only thing that makes me not like BD.

I think BD is a lot better, quality, space, durability, 3 stars.
HD-DVD, might have quality, and probably doesn't have as good durability.
1 1/2 -2 stars.

Having it in Java will make putting movies on it easier, and making games easier, but Sony doesn't have a monopoly on all the assets, just the film for it.

The film industry will go for the easiest, highest quality, most space, biggest security, and will go after each other like lemmings.

With the number of films that will only be on BD, Sony will win.
That's why I put my bet in with BD's.

Score: 0

By Paris3125

edited Jan 21, 2006 - 3:16 PM

Great article. Very informative with accurate information that I saw at CES 2006. I want HD DVD now!!!

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 23, 2006 - 11:23 PM

I don't know what you saw, but didn't you see the $1,000 BD player?
Didn't you see that over 50% of the Movie industry is only backing BD and over 75% is backing BD?
Didn't you see that according to Gizmodo there have been over 120 movies set to release for BD as of last year?
Where the heck did you go????

Did you go to some consumer unawareness center?????
Did you go to some Tobisha brainwashing center at CES????

THIS WHOLE THING ARTICLE IS A BUNCH OF BULL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Score: 0

By Uradox

posted Jan 26, 2006 - 2:34 AM

Still hanging around this article that is a 'bunch of bull' ?
I guess he saw the $500 HDVD Player
I guess he would rather see attual TITLE'S released rather than taking in that all these studios are supporting BD
I guess he would rather see an OFFICIAL anoucment rather than something from a blog
As for brainwashing.... hd fans would say exactly the same thing about sony
Its not more bull. HD made their move previously, BD simply matched it

Score: 0

By HQ

edited Jan 18, 2006 - 7:32 PM

$1,800 for Blu-ray? $499-$799 for HD-DVD? How much are the movies gonna cost?

Heck, I do want hi-def DVD movies (480p leaves much to be desired even on my relatively small 42-inch LCD projection), but I'm gonna stick to HD channels for a while before getting a hi-def DVD player.

I am a consumer, and I have decided to wait.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 23, 2006 - 10:39 PM

There are going to be $1,000 Blu-Ray Disc players.
I don't remember which company is going to release it, but they are going to be out on the same day if not sooner than the $1,800 one, which probably would be a tech-head's dream.

The movies probably will cost about $30-$40 for the HD-DVD's and $30-$50 for Blu-Ray.
Both will drop, but it may take a while for the movies to drop with both.

Blu-Ray has a higher chance of dropping either the first or the most because the PS3 will use BD's (Blu-Ray Discs) for all the games, making it so they will be able to store a lot more info and there will be a lot of them being sold with games, so there will be a lot more sold than HD-DVD's.

That's only if people don't go crazy for HD-DVD and don't look into BD's.

HD-DVD movies will be harder to squeeze on one layer, but they will be able to store a full 2 or more hours on one HD-DVD with two layers.

Blu-Ray, however, will be able to store a lot more info, about 2 hours with one layer and about 4 with 2, 8 with 4, etc.

BD's will probably be the same if not better precision than HD-DVD because, this is an educated guess, Blu laser is higher quality than Red laser, so it will be able to have a smaller wavelength.
That was only an educated guess, so don't count on that coming true.

Score: 0

By SeraphimXI

edited Jan 28, 2006 - 1:26 AM

Um... wow your amazingly wrong lol.

Where to begin!

Lets see yes your right that they announced a $1000 blu-ray player, however there is also a $500 HD-DVD player that is launching before you can even get a BD-ROM player in stores, so you are not actually making a point.

HD-DVD movies will not cost $40 dollars, the big design goal of HD-DVD was to allow old DVD manufacturing plants to create HD-DVD's with minimal retrofitting, expect them to cost 5-10 dollars more then their non HD bretheren.

Blu-Ray has a much lower chance of dropping first. The fact that blu-ray production requires an entirely new manufacturing process means that it will take alot longer to break even.

The PS3 is not using BD-ROM's for all of it's games, it's an option, and due to the extremely slow transfer rate of even a 2x BD-Rom drive, it is expected that the majority of PS3 games will be running on regular DVD-9's.

It is also alot easier to create dual layer HD-DVD's then dual layer BD-ROM's because the manufacturing process is almost unchanged. Sure it's harder to fit all the content onto one layer (15Gigs 1 layer HD-DVD vs 25 Gigs 1 layer BD-ROM) but it really doesn't matter at all. Do you see Longer movies costing more then shorter movies?

Also I love how you seem to believe that there is a 4 layer BD-ROM made, they still haven't perfected the 2 layer (50 gig) BD-ROM.

I love this line, this just made me laugh. "Blu laser is higher quality than Red laser, so it will be able to have a smaller wavelength." HD-DVD uses a BLUE LASER.

Your education in FUD is quite amusing :)

Score: 0

By metometin

edited Jun 4, 2007 - 6:04 PM

I spent $1000.00 , bought a Blue Ray player,
now It does not play new Blue Ray Discs.
What I should do ?

Score: 0

By 40s

edited Jan 17, 2006 - 2:09 PM

Wow. What does this have to do with the 360? MS backs HDDVD but it's Toshiba who makes it.

Tri_Edge:
"Not including the PS3, which has a 99% chance of being $500 or less, depending on how much Sony wants to lose."

What makes you think it has a 99% chance? because CNN said so? What the hell does CNN know? Their estimate is just as good or worse than the Merrill Lynch estimate that put the PS3 at $600 to $700.

If you read the original article in which CNN made the $500 claim then you would see that they have nothing backing that up besides a guess from a financial adviser.

Neither PS3 or Xbox 360 were mentioned a lot in this article, you know why? Because

It's HDDVD vrs. Blu Ray, not 360 vrs. PS3 you morons!

Leave the consul politics out of it for one minute. I'm tired of you loser gamers warping facts to fit your consul preference. This is about movies and data storage, not games. Stay out of it. Don't forget that the PS3 has USB drives too and will be able to add HDDVD to it if necessary. You don't have to highjack the article to make sure a company which you have no connection to (stock, and uncle who works there ect...) "wins".

It's about the consumer winning, not the company. You should warp your ideas to reflect what would be best for you, not planing global domination for $ony or M$ you brain washed corporate slaves.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 17, 2006 - 10:53 PM

I know that Blu-Ray Disc and HD-DVD are two choices for the consumer 40s, I believe Blu-Ray will be the best choice.
Also it may not be Microsoft alone, (MS and Toshiba) who's making these claims, but if it is, Microsoft seems like it is trying a lot harder than Toshiba to make HD-DVD win.

The way that gaming comes in is this:
Microsoft has been lieing about the PS3 and Blu-Ray Disc, saying both will be complete crap.

The PS3 games will be able to have a lot more information, that's data storage, which is what you said earlier, so that's where data comes in.

Microsoft thinks if they can make people distrust Blu-Ray Disc, they will make people not want to buy the PS3 because it uses Blu-Ray Discs for all the new PS3 games. If HD-DVD wins, the PS3 will be out of it, but if Blu-Ray Disc wins, Neither systems will be out of it. This may seem like a plus for MS, but then they would still have an opponent that would make it so it keeps losing money.
This may not be about the PS3 vs. Xbox 360, but it does get dragged into it by Microsoft going to have a drive for HD-DVD and the PS3 using Blu-Ray Disc.
Both of those will become inexpensive players compared to other players.
If the PS3 was $600 or more, it would be suicide for the company, so it won't go for that much.

Right now, the head of Warner doesn't like Blu-Ray, but is going for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray because they don't want to lose money on this, they will hopefully earn more than usual by selling both formats.

In the future there might be some players to play both, but not until this war is over.
Sony probably started it, but that is because they saw a chance, and took it, maybe made a bad decision, so the only way to win was for war.
I don't like this whole war thing, I wish Toshiba and MS would just stop because right now Sony is winning, but they are probably hoping they will win.

There probably will be a lot of companies backing both, trying to save themselves, and gain some more money, and possibly lose money (sorry manufacturers),
Sony should have been nice and let the consumers decide which one to accept, because that would have been more in the mind of the consumer and not corporate adventure.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 16, 2006 - 10:14 PM

Microsoft and it's honkeys will probably do what they did with the Xbox 360, by releasing it too early and allowing so much crap to happen to the systems.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 16, 2006 - 10:08 PM

There is a Blu-Ray player set to be $1,000, and there will probably be more of them that will be cheaper before that one will be released. (Not including the PS3, which has a 99% chance of being $500 or less, depending on how much Sony wants to lose.)

As of November or October, the current PS3 would cost the consumer $1,000, that was before they scrapped some things, you can read more about it in an issue of PSM that was from last year. So right now it might cost $800.
So Sony would probably lose $300 with each one sold, but they will probably wait until it's $700 or $600 to make each one so they would only lose $100-$300, depending on how much it will cost.

The PS3 will probably the largest selling Next Gen HD player for this year.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 16, 2006 - 9:59 PM

This entire thing, or at least most of it, it entire bull made up by Microsoft.

The Blu-Ray Disc will have on a lot more content allowing high definition games, but they probably won't be hd, on the movies.

The games for PS3 will still be in HD, I'm just saying that HD-DVD will have a lot less features.

The Blu-Ray isn't just taking old movies and remastering them, it's taking movies that haven't ever been seen in HD, because frankly, the puny DVD's can't hold that much info. So a lot of movies are filmed in HD and haven't been released on HD yet.

I don't really see what the fuss is about with HD either, but apparently a lot of people are making a big deal about it so movies are being filmed in them and tv's are being made to support it, but right now only Satellite, regular channels, and Cable offer HD.

The HD-DVD is weaker, has less space, and will fail. It may take some time for it to fail, but Microsoft basically screwed it once it released the Xbox 360 without the drive.

Blu-Ray will also be harder for anyone to copy, now that it has better technology than DVD's and HD-DVD, so Blu-Ray is also screwing thieves.

Holographic Discs will also come into play, but that amount of space (1.6 TB) won't be needed for a long, long time, so it won't make a difference.

Also Holographic Discs will be very expensive, as of now the players would cost $15,000.

Those next, next generation DVD's austin is talking about, won't be needed for maybe 5 or 6 years from now, maybe more, because there simply isn't any need for them, just like the Holographic Discs. The HD tv's nowadays probably wouldn't support the 3D images to be viewed without the glasses, at that probably would take a lot for a tv to do.

Score: 0

By austin3171

edited Jan 16, 2006 - 9:49 PM

Recently I’ve read interviews with James Cameron where he claims the movie industry is attempting to “head off” piracy by moving away from conventional filming techniques. The new technology encompasses “digital 3-D” which allows 3-D images to be viewed without the funky glasses. I’m not sure of the specifics except it will jump data storage requirements well past the 25 or even 50GB storage level of next generation DVDs. Instead next, next generation DVDs like the one announced last year by Maxell will be the desired format, 300GB.

Score: 0

By betafu

edited Jan 15, 2006 - 5:14 PM

At some point the studios and hi-tech manufacturers will realize that they have missed *two* opportunities to sell the world a new format device and new format media. There is a cost associated with delay and perfection-- delay is money missed and perfection leaves no room for up-sell. Better to be half-right twice as often. The worst thing for the studios is that anyone can watch HD content on their computer *today*... As long as they refuse to care about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

Score: 0

By (l)user

edited Jan 17, 2006 - 10:46 AM

It's allmost all BS and marketing hype...

You have to get new players, you have to buy the movies again etc etc... B.S.
What I think would be enough is to include MPEG4 AVS or VC1 in DVD specs and with the more efficient codec you could fit HD material right on the standard DVD (DL), which would allow for
evolutionary shift to HD... We need evolution not revolution since most households do not even have HD TVs, not to mention the specific TVs with 1080p format...
(By the way, my Philips DVD player already plays MPEG/DVIX encoded movies although in SD...)

This is not to say that I do not welcome the new media: after watching TV in 1080i for about a year DVDs are real eyesores... However, given the circumstances I would side with HD-DVD as it seems to be the less costly, evolutionary option at this point...

Oh, and let's make sure all the drives are software upgradable in case there is a update to the codec... Let's learn our lesson.

Score: 0

By randal2k

posted Jan 15, 2006 - 3:00 PM

sounds like a boycott on blue-ray and fox. Let the PS3 fail due to sony's own ignorance of what we want and need in a "new generation" dvd.
I personally am looking forward to backing up many of my files and computer stuff.... this means i don't need DRM or AAC?! whatever. there for there wasting valuable time in getting this out to me for personal use.
As for adoption of the medium, DVD is fine for me on watching movies. HighDef is a joke! if all there doing is taking older films and redoing them in better def, this is just like technocolor.. same crap, new face... bah!

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 16, 2006 - 9:51 PM

This entire thing, or at least most of it, it entire bull made up by Microsoft.

The Blu-Ray Disc will have on a lot more content allowing high definition games, but they probably won't be hd, on the movies.

The games for PS3 will still be in HD, I'm just saying that HD-DVD will have a lot less features.

The Blu-Ray isn't just taking old movies and remastering them, it's taking movies that haven't ever been seen in HD, because frankly, the puny DVD's can't hold that much info. So a lot of movies are filmed in HD and haven't been released on HD yet.

I don't really see what the fuss is about with HD either, but apparently a lot of people are making a big deal about it so movies are being filmed in them and tv's are being made to support it, but right now only Satellite, regular channels, and Cable offer HD.

The HD-DVD is weaker, has less space, and will fail. It may take some time for it to fail, but Microsoft basically screwed it once it released the Xbox 360 without the drive.

Blu-Ray will also be harder for anyone to copy, now that it has better technology than DVD's and HD-DVD, so Blu-Ray is also screwing thieves.

Score: 0

By polomi_d

edited Jul 20, 2006 - 5:08 AM

Hi Tri-Edge, greetings!
Are you a cross between Triple H and Edge?

Score: 0

By Paris3125

posted Jan 22, 2006 - 10:54 AM

HD is way better and HD-DVD has all the features of Bluray and is more reliable. Bluray players cannot guarantee to play all bluray discs. Buy a bluray machine, I'll take the reliability of HD-DVD.

Score: 0

By Catzas

edited Jan 15, 2006 - 10:32 AM

When oh when are the manufacturers ever going to start to think of the consumer? This is all a scheme to make us buy new equipment because they have sold all they can of the present technology. As far as comparing the two new players, I'll bet if you put them side by side, and played them on identical units, you couldn't tell the difference. Comparing price, guess which unit would sell the most.

Score: 0

By marko85

edited Jan 12, 2006 - 10:34 PM

i read recently that blu-ray will not be using the newer h.264 compression that hd-dvd uses, but rather the older mpeg-2 compression that current dvd uses.

i've been experimenting with h.264 avc compression for some time now and have found that SD-DVD content can be compressed using h.264 avc to one fifth of its original size, with no loss in quality.
by the same logic that means that content of five times that resoultion (1080p), using h.264 would take up little more space than a SD-DVD.

blu-ray will need every bit of its 50 GB capacilty to store video content ( approx 8.5 x 5 = 42.5 GB)

by comparison, hd-dvd would require approximately 10GB to store a feature length movie, out of an available 30GB.

admittedly these figures are approximate and dependant on content. what do you guys think?

i must say as someone else pointed out, i too will be seriously pissed off if they try to further compress SD-DVD content to a single layer. SD-DVD's have enough compression artifacts already!

Score: 0

By Kazper

posted Jan 16, 2006 - 2:50 PM

Don't listen to rumours. Both formats will fully support h.264 compression.

Score: 0

By hsm_melody

edited Jan 12, 2006 - 12:33 AM

SD-DVD should remain in its existing form and NOT put on an HD-DVD.
There is NO way to get SD playback off an HD-DVD without reducing the quality of the SD presentation by a reduction of 50%.
SD must remain in its SD only form NOT as a reduced quality piggy-back!!
If HD-DVD takes the market they will kill off SD discs and force SD to only be available as a single-layer on a HD-DVD creating a false difference in quality between SD and HD by having made SD only half as good as it is now.

Score: 0

By Craziness

edited Jan 11, 2006 - 5:36 AM

I don't think any movie studio or manufacturer will stay exclusively on one format.

Movie studios will go where the customers are be that HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

How does Pioneer feel about a $400 PS3 coming out around the time they are trying to sell a $1800 Blu-Ray player??

Once the PS3 comes out and fails to "wow" people, Blu-Ray will be the next Betamax.

Betamax, Minidisc, UMD, Memory Stick, etc. Name a format that Sony made that was ever used by anybody other than themselves.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:58 PM

I found this:
Blu-Ray will win, according to companies already supporting Blu-Ray
http://www.gizmodo.com/a...-already-won-023974.php
These support Blu-Ray according to www.blu-raydisc.com
Sony at 12%, Fox at 12%, Disney at 18%, Lion's Gate at 3%, and Warner at 23%.
Excluding Warner, it's still at 45%

This is from a while ago, so it doesn't include the latest.
It includes:
Sony: 12%, Fox: 12%, and MGM: 6%. If MGM is with, which it is hard to tell other from Gizmodo, then with the #'s above, it has 51% of shares.

But remember, don't think that all places are telling the truth.

Score: 0

By SeraphimXI

posted Jan 28, 2006 - 1:28 AM

You are aware that Warner is on both sides right?

Score: 0

By direghost

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 1:30 PM

in the end, all drivers go to support the two formats

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By BlackSeagull

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 7:36 AM

On my left HD-DVD cheaper, consumer compliant (less protections) without media (only few studios and Mikeysoft DRM support)

On my right Blu-Ray with medias/more space and a bit more costly (all Films Majors will go to Blu-Ray coz of it's anticonsumer protections Mikeysoft DRM outside (no royalties for Mikeysoft here))

So question is : do you plan to buy a support for witch there's no Blockbusters Title support ?

Score: 0

By hsm_melody

posted Jan 12, 2006 - 12:54 AM

The question of BLOCKBUSTERS to me means nothing. I have taste in cinema and the will power not to watch crap.

Score: 0

By Uradox

edited Jan 11, 2006 - 4:03 AM

My guess to that is because which side the studios that produce the most movies per year by far are on...
PARAMOUNT
WARNER
UNIVERSAL
Two of those studios have released release dates for many movies coming out in just a few months, even some big names.
So when consumers are hit with this 'revolutionary' new HD movie phase... are they going to wait for another format? I doubt it. Only people I can see waiting are ps3 gamers and people who value space above all
All i can see is a hddvd bonaza with sony trying to tell people they shouldnt buy hddvd because theirs is better....

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:22 PM

You can also go to www.blu-raydisc.com
This will have a list of a lot of the Companies that are already sided with BlueRay. Also, the BDRom may actually become cheaper, because they could make enough of them to make the cost of the manufacturing equipment to be covered. Including when Sony made the first PAPER Blue Ray disc. (At first I didn't believe it either.)

Sony is going to win this one, no doubt.

Score: 0

By MarketingGuy

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 9:42 AM

All of the techies out there should check their history books. We have been through this before with video tape. Sony created the technically superior Beta format and the easier, cheaper VHS format was supported by almost everyone else. Seen a Beta tape lately? The marketing power and cost effectiviness will always win out in the marketplace.

Score: 0

By hsm_melody

edited Jan 12, 2006 - 1:07 AM

There is a great big myth about BETA.

1. on the consumer level SONY made the mistake of not allowing other manufacturers to have BETAMAX at its launch.
2. In some markets such as Brazil BETAMAX was King for years.
3. The idea that BETA technology lost is a very provincial consumer perspective. Betamax which was an off-shoot of 3/4 Umatic went on to became BETACAM which then became BETACAM SP which then became DIGIBETA. Digital Betacam has been used to broadcast 90% of all TV transmissions that you have watched since the early 90's. Recently hard-drives have begun to take over but DIGITBETA is the world broadcast standard for SD television. It is the format off which most of your SD DVD masters were authored to disc either directly or to hard-drive from digibeta then to DVD.
4. SONY BLU-RAY has a great deal of professional and industrial usage HD-DVD has none. So SONY if they lost at consumer level could still take their disc format in the 50gb form to movie theatres, TV channels, hospital applications, oil industry, marine biology etc
You name it.

Score: 0

By Dave.C

edited Jan 26, 2006 - 11:32 PM

The real reason why VHS won over betamax was that JVC let the Porn industry release on VHS where Sony didn't.

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By bourgeoisdude

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 10:59 AM

Agreed. If Blu-ray costs more than HD-DVD, then "ignorant consumers" will always buy what's cheaper. I mean come on, when it comes to the movies themselves, Blu-Ray will not be so supperior in quality to justify the price difference.

Score: 0

By egghead1987

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 4:07 AM

(i)PS 3 supports Blu-ray
(ii)two blu-ray RW(100GB) could have replaced today's hi-end notebook storage(normally 120GB) ,hence we needn't to buy any external hard disk drive.

I think I would eventually choose blu ray as my first choice,because of its space.

Score: 0

By Banquo

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 8:26 AM

Xbox 360 will support HD-DVD, but neither case matters since game consoles are not going to determine the winner in this format war. The price of home players and the media will. While the extra space is nice it's the only advantage Blu-Ray has going for it and when all is considered I don't think it's worth the big jump in price and possibly lower reliability.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:46 PM

The price difference will dissapear after a year or a couple months, because people will buy the players with their credit cards and ruin the economy by doing so (once the bill collectors come and don't get anything), but that's a whole different story.

The Blu-Ray will probably have a higher begin rate for price, but will drop after they are bought enough, and they are probably higher quality than HD DVD.

There are probably going to be players for less than $1,800, and I also saw one was going to be sold for $1,000 and one for $800 on message boards. But don't get ahead of yourselves.

The reason HD-DVD's will be cheaper is that they are almost exactly like the DVD, hence the name. Blu-Ray is being completely created, or mostly, so it will cost more.

Also, the Xbox 360 will never support HD-DVD or will in a while, a long while, because Microsoft will sell attachments to the Xbox 360 for, what I heard, $100. If they do that, more people will spring for a brand new one that already has it in, or it will bring up the price of new ones that would have it installed.

Score: 0

By bhuk

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 3:31 AM

I think Blu-Ray and HD-DVD should concentrate on the computer industry for data backups.

I cant see that any consumer is going to want to buy a new DVD player to Play new DVD formats. This new technology is not wanted for home entertainment movies.

It is far too soon to bring out a new format. DVD has not been around long enough. Releasing these formats will stop DVD sales and no one will embrace the new technology in fear that their movies will become obsolete again.

DVD sales have sky rocketed. People who wouldnt ordinarily buy movies on VHS have been buying them on DVD because of quality, special features, no more chewed tapes etc, etc.

Its not uncommon for households to have extensive DVD librarys and powerful home entertainment systems and your'e going to tell me that they are going to be happy about re-purchasing their movies in a new format?

If this new technology is not backwards compatible then both manufacturers can shove this new technology.

Score: 0

By Banquo

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 8:27 AM

"I cant see that any consumer is going to want to buy a new DVD player to Play new DVD formats. This new technology is not wanted for home entertainment movies."

People are now buying high definition televisions though, so they are going to want HD content to play on them. For those paying the huge prices for these TVs the extra cost of one of these new players isn't going to be that much of an issue.

Score: 0

By bhuk

posted Jan 12, 2006 - 8:25 PM

Yes but you are not thinking about the movies. People have huge DVD library's. Do you really think people are going to pay extra money to buy a second copy of all of their movies in this new format?

The answer you are looking for is NO F__N way?

Go away Blu-Ray!

Score: 0

By Black-Wolf

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 3:22 AM

If everything stated in this report is correct and true.

I think we all should side with HD-DVD because obviously Blue-ray sucked too much.

Score: 0

By lynux

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 10:13 PM

I like both formats, but it is good and bad at the same time for consumers, because we have to pay for both formats/players to view movies, episodes, etc.

Both are good and very similar in certain ways, but support, word of mouth, and availability will win the format war.

HD-DVD has decent support from the movie industry but Blu-ray has 2x the support in this area as well as much more support in PCs. Dell, one of the leading manufacturers in PCs, is supporting Blu-ray exclusively. HP, second is supporting Blu-ray and HD-DVD, Sony, NEC, and others are also supporting Blu-ray.

Normally, everyone looks at a disc format as of now, which is, no offense, stupid. You should ALWAYS look into the future with any format because we as consumers have to pay for these formats. Blu-ray has a more secure future than HD-DVD because of capacity and could prove to be as cheap or cheaper than DVDs, in manufacturing atleast. HD-DVD is cheaper now, but how long until something replaces the format with something newer and us as consumers have to pay for these high priced media players and new formats? IMHO, the more logical choice is Blu-ray.

Score: 0

By Christopher10000

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 3:16 AM

If studios were smart, they would not support one of these formats over the other. They would make their content for both, and allow the consumer to choose which one they like better.

Score: 0

By retroneo

edited Jan 9, 2006 - 9:24 PM

So many misleading statements!!

Blu-ray discs can withstand scratches from a screwdriver. HD-DVD cannot. TDK developed a new coating that is used in all Blu-ray discs for this purpose.
http://news.com.com/Try+...100-1041_3-5455621.html

Blu-ray discs use MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) or VC-1 - the same high quality codecs used in HD-DVD.

Blu-ray disks are up to 50GB from day one. 100GB multi-layer Blu-ray discs have already been demoed. Excellent for backing up data.

When backing up data, you'll enjoy Blu-ray's higher data transfer and burn rate!

Blu-ray is clearly superior.

Score: 0

By Uradox

posted Jan 11, 2006 - 3:43 AM

25gb and 50gb respectivly not 50 and 100

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

edited Jan 9, 2006 - 11:08 PM

The disc they attaced with a screwdriver was a standard DVD, NOT a Blu-Ray disc. Also from that very same article (which is outdated):

"Blu-ray places the data layer much closer to the surface. This allows the discs to hold more data than HD DVDs. But it also renders them more vulnerable to damage, so much so that the Blu-ray industry group stowed its rewritable discs in a protective cartridge, much like a cassette tape."

Even with this coating they were deemed so fragile that they were originally going to have caddies like DVD-RAM, but no longer. Their fragile nature along with the high prices and Sony's ways of doing things means I refuse to even consider this product. Clearly superior indeed.

"When backing up data, you'll enjoy Blu-ray's higher data transfer and burn rate!"

Oh really, where did you get that from?

Blu-Ray : 36.0Mbps
HD-DVD : 36.55Mbps

Score: 0

By Kazper

edited Jan 9, 2006 - 8:57 PM

I keep reading HD-DVD fanboys saying how great it is to have a HD-DVD movie on one side and a normal DVD movie on the flip side of the disk. Am I the ONLY one who does NOT want to have disks that are used on both sides?

It's hugely problematic when it comes to marking the disks and their content, and it makes it infinitely more likely that you'll scratch and dirty the disk quickly.

This becomes even more important when it comes to using it for a data disk in your computer.

Cowboybebop wrote:
"Actually It would be 30, 45 or possibly 60GB flavors as they wouldnt need the other side of the disc to be the 15g dvd version of a movie for blank media on the pc. So imagine that 30g burns on each side :D"

That scary prospect alone could scare me AWAY from HD-DVD. I do NOT ever want to have writable surfaces on both sides of my removable storage *shudder* The big companies might find ways to manage to still stamp their disks and protect them a bit from wear and tear - but my home-burned disks would die before I needed the data backed up on them again if they were used double-sided.

At this point I'm not crazy about either format, but then a lot of things aren't known about either format yet. I will reserve my judgement until they've been finalized and actual units for sale are out. Then it will be possible to decide which is the superior technology. Until then all you/we are doing are blowing wind with our behinds when we try to say one format will be clearly superior...

I will join the critique of the jounalistic standard of the article though. BetaNews may well have talked to Blu-Ray too, but if so it should have been put together in ONE article. Anyone linked to this article - as was I - will see a completely biased (and partly outright lying) smear campaign against one format by someone on the other side. That's just not jounalism - that's idiocy. Like allowing the false statement about the $1800 pricemark to stand unrefuted - that's weak, very weak jounalism.

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

edited Jan 9, 2006 - 10:41 PM

"Am I the ONLY one who does NOT want to have disks that are used on both sides?"

What on earth are you talking about? It's not going to have data on both sides. The regular content is simply in a different layer. Also simply supporting one format over the other does not make one a "fanboy".

http://img.photobucket.c...739/KR74/Misc/78_12.jpg

Score: 0

By Kazper

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 12:31 AM

I know all about layered disks - that's not what I'm talking about here. Several people - including the quote I included - were indeed talking about using both sides of the disk - not using different layers.

Score: 0

By Banquo

edited Jan 10, 2006 - 4:08 AM

I'm guessing they were simply mistaken. Anyway it's nothing to worry about, HD-DVD won't have two sides like that.

Score: 0

By Danny7

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 5:51 PM

The HD-DVD seems like the better format in terms of cost per GB.
Also, the HD-DVD players are two times cheaper than Blu-ray ones.

Score: 0

By retroneo

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 9:55 PM

There is a Blu-ray disc player inside every Playstation 3. The Playstation 3 will retail for under US$400 and be on US shelves mid-year, and Japanese shelves by May.

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

edited Jan 9, 2006 - 10:42 PM

Most people aren't going to buy a game console to watch movies on.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

edited Jan 9, 2006 - 11:16 PM

Most people wouldn't, so it would be a major plus for the gamers. Also, if people did, it would be a major plus for Sony. lol

Score: 0

By jeffreybt

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 10:08 AM

people buying the PS3 to watch movies only is not a major plus for sony.

they make money on the games not the console.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:05 PM

You're right. I just found out that on every Xbox sold Microsoft loses around $100, with Sony loses about $25 for each PSP sold in the U.S., and the Gamecube loses less than $10.

So yeah, it would not be a plus.

Score: 0

By Chilly Willy

edited Jan 18, 2006 - 2:10 PM

Actually, it will be a plus. Remember that Sony owns patents on Blu-Ray and gets a fee for every Blu-Ray disc shipped (the main reason MS doesn't want to support Blu-Ray). So if people buy PS3's just to play movies, Sony still wins.

Score: 0

By horsecharles

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 5:03 PM

Both technologies suck: Tiffany's-like prices for the players, & worse, the price per gb for blank rewriteable discs is several times that of hard disks. No thank you, i'll wait another year for holographic-- its larger capacities & gb transfer speeds WILL be worth a premium. The only folks who buy initial hd or blue ray will be elitist sucker fools being separated from their money: http://news.com.com/Blu-...100-1041_3-6024750.html

Score: 0

By Practice

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 6:10 PM

This Holographic Disc talk is getting a little old. It's not even available and the player will cost $15,000 and $120 for the disc. So I can't figure out how you can complain about price when Holographic is so much more.

Personally, I going to wait for the Quantum Phased-Particle Disc to be released which is a million times better than Holographic Discs.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:04 AM

What about the SuperMolecular EndoSteel discs? :)

Score: 0

By SamppaX

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 4:03 PM

Hmm... i think this war going to be a draw. 50GB is always good for example adding more extras, but again if it cost too much... Aah.. i don't know.. we have to see it, right?

Score: 0

By JSchwage

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 3:45 PM

Well, that settles it for me. I've decided on taking the HD DVD side of the battle. I'd rather have quality, instead of quantity.

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 11:32 PM

Quality, instead of quantity???

This entire thing, or at least most of it, has been made up by Microsoft. They are trying to distrust you with Blue Ray. It will be cheaper to make HD DVD, but the quality, in truth, and quantity, both go to Blue Ray Disc.

Don't believe everything you see, especially if it is made by a biased source. For all you know, I may be biased. LOL

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 12:03 AM

Oh, so this is all a Microsoft conspiracy. Right...

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:21 PM

Correct

There was also another story by Microsoft saying that Blue-Ray would put out about 40% efficiency, while HD DVD would put out over 80%, which the Blu-Ray Disc Association quickly said it's just FAKE PROPAGANDA that Microsoft made.
This is the TRUTH:
To switch DVD manufacturing to HD DVD it will cost $100 million, while, this is where most of the cost of BDROMs is, will be $1 billion dollars. This will be not noticeable in about a year, but in the next few months after they release the first player, it will dissapear.

So, to recap, Microsoft is scared and is lying to gain trust.

Score: 0

By kholdstare

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 2:48 PM

Yea in order to have full backward compatibility on the Xbox 360 you have to subscribe to Xbox live service. This is one of the reasons why I will never get it, because I don’t feel like paying 800 bucks for a premium xbox 360 pack and then pay a 20-40 dollar subscription fee a month to use the full abilities of the console. This is mostly the reason why I don’t play MMORPG’s because the good ones require a sub.

Score: 0

By snrsuave

edited Jan 12, 2006 - 9:42 AM

Umm... you could get a silver XBOX Live account which is free and would allow you to have all of your backwards compatibility. The only time you would need to pay for a subscription is if you want to play mulitplayer games online. Oh... and a year's subscription is $50 bucks, or just over $4 a month.
Research before you complain...

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 11:34 PM

There are only two games you can play on the Xbox 360 for the Xbox out of the box. Halo and Halo 2. All others you have to download some drivers just to play it, and a bunch of games you can't even play. This is another reason PS3 will win the console war.

Score: 0

By jeffreybt

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 10:12 AM

if you said so it must be true.

fanboyism FTW?

Score: 0

By Tri_Edge

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:52 PM

You must not always believe what you hear. But, I have looked up on this information and also when Microsoft says it has more money of films on their side, according to the companies that support Blu-Ray, it is a lot less, since Blu-Ray has over 50% according to Gizmodo, including Warner, which is at 23%, I think, although Warner is going for both, aparently????
http://www.gizmodo.com/a...-already-won-023974.php
These support Blu-Ray according to www.blu-raydisc.com
Sony at 12%, Fox at 18%, Disney at 12%, Lion's Gate at 3%, and Warner at 23%.
Excluding Warner, it's still at 45%

Score: 0

By mocha

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 6:32 PM

What country is that?

In the US, the Xbox 360 Premium is $400 (I know they're still hard to find), and Xbox Live costs $50 per YEAR which works out to a whopping $4.17 per month.

Score: 0

By nate

posted Jan 9, 2006 - 2:47 PM

For those that missed it, BetaNews did speak to Blu-ray first, and the HD DVD interview was in response to that. Like everyone else, we're trying to get both sides of the story and fight through the FUD.

http://ces.betanews.com/...t_Format_War/1136581584

And to clarify one more point: Blu-ray and HD DVD will use the SAME codecs for movies. The quality of the movie will be identical. Pioneer is claiming otherwise, but HD DVD will support full 1080p at launch.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Jan 10, 2006 - 11:14 AM

Is this Nate as in Nate Mook? Hmmm...interesting.

Score: 0