RSSHow HD DVD Got its Groove Back
By Ed Oswald | Published November 7, 2007, 12:01 AM
ANALYSIS: Sources close to retailers indicate that Toshiba sold over 90,000 $99 HD DVD players over the weekend, and that figure only represents a portion of the retailers that participated in the frenzy.
According to Video Business, the 90,000 count includes Toshiba HD-A2 players sold at Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and Circuit City along with a few other brick and mortar outlets. But it apparently doesn't include online retailers who also participated in the price drop, such as Amazon.com.
BetaNews' own estimates placed sales at around 40,000 to 70,000 within Wal-Mart alone based on information compiled about stocks at the discount retailer's various locations around the country.
Wal-Mart's move spurred a retailer war over prices of the players, even bringing down the cost of other models as a result when HD-A2 stocks depleted. It's fairly likely that total sales of all HD DVD players eclipsed the 100,000 mark during just the past week.
Sales of the Toshiba HD-A3, the successor to the HD-A2, appeared to be equally brisk, with many retailers selling out of their stocks quickly after the older model became hard to find. At many locations, the newer player was selling for $199 - $100 off its original retail price.
Furthermore, sales of the HD-A2 alone over the past few days are nearly equivalent to total sales of the top Blu-ray player, Sony's BDP-S300, which has shipped 100,000 units since its introduction over the summer.
BetaNews has a request in with Toshiba for full sales numbers, but the company thus far has not provided specific figures.
It All Comes Down to Price
Over the weekend, BetaNews talked to several new-to-HD disc consumers and there was almost a universal reaction that price was the primary factor behind the purchases. Buying an HD DVD player, however, did not necessarily mean the door was shut to Blu-ray.
"I was waiting on the price to come down on the hardware to where i thought the return on investment was there, because I know lots of money will be spent on software once I had a player," Mike Taylor of Park City, Utah told BetaNews.
The story was the same from David Balfoort of Syracuse and David Lazerson of Cape Coral, Florida. While Lazerson remains open to Blu-ray if the price drops below $250, Balfoort says he'd only consider the opposite format if it "wins the war."
Another interesting finding of the interviews was that no one felt worried about their purchase, despite the future of high-definition discs remaining up in the air. "I'm not nervous at all about the purchase," Lazerson said, pointing to the upconversion feature of the player, which he noted alone makes it worth the $98 purchase price.
Balfoort, who already had a extensive home theater, said that an HD movie player was the last piece of the puzzle. "I generally purchase a DVD player every 12-18 months so there was no nervousness involved," he told BetaNews.
Blu-ray's Dilemma
Through these interviews, it seems clear that Sony's recent offerings of a small price cut this holiday may not be enough to counter what could be increasing momentum for HD DVD. With so many new players now in consumers' hands, it can only be expected that disc sales will increase as well.
Multiple studies show that the PlayStation 3 alone will not be enough to keep the Blu-ray format afloat. Six out of ten users aren't even aware that the device can play Blu-ray movies, and out of the remaining four, only two had actually used the player in the past month to play a disc, according to NPD Group.
In addition, a rising number of HD DVD owners will make it hard for Sony to make the case to both retailers and studios to support its format exclusively. Consumer demand will keep HD DVD on the radar of the studios who currently support it, and will give the format leverage to lure new studios in.
It is not out of the question that this past weekend's moves by Wal-Mart have in the very least extended the format war much longer than many Blu-ray supporters would have imagined, and very well could have provided the needed momentum toward a successful conclusion for those in HD DVD's camp.
"Wal-Mart doesn't have these sales for no reason, there's always a business aspect," an employee told BetaNews on Friday while customers waited in line to snap up a $99 HD DVD player. "You can fully expect that this will be the price next year; they are always ahead of the curve on that."
From Friday's action, it looks like the nation's leading retailer wants to play kingmaker. And from the results we're seeing today, it just may have.
Toshiba is really backing Sony into a corner, and if BluRay doesn't recover, we could be seeing a knock down this holiday season. But with so much brand loyalty, Sony fans will prolong this battle. You guys defend Sony like they're paying your rent or something...if Bluray doesn't lower their prices SOON, this war could be over sooner than we think. I think if one more Studio moves over to the HDDVD side, that would be definitive blow while the air is already starting to deflate on Sony's blubaloon.
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|Joey is jealous. As usual.
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|So in summary, most people admit that HD DVD will fail, but don't mind as it's only wasting $99.
Nice...
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|"most people admit that HD DVD will fail"
how is you most ?
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|You didn't know? Joey speaks for everybody when he's lying.
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|Went over to bluray.com to see what those bouches are complainin about and had to look at the thread about posting pictures of your home setup and had to laugh. I find it interesting that these are the same guys that complain about the lack an HD sound setup but the receivers in the setup are to old to support such a thing. What is even more amazing is that only a very small percentage even had a center speaker. Also found it funny how many looked like they were in their parents house since it was in their bedroom. Kind of reminds me of the pictures with a sky box that someone here posted.
In the end most of the setups were pretty cheap, well actually very cheap. Guess they blew all their money on the BD player.
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|"In the end most of the setups were pretty cheap, well actually very cheap. Guess they blew all their money on the BD player."
You're right, and I think some of them are actually proud of it. This is from one person's signature:
"super broke....and loving it! Thank you Blu Ray...."
*sigh*
Kids. :)
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|'Sony is repeating the same mistakes it' made with every single other proprietary format it's tried to ram down our throats and tie us into a monopoly with.
Thank GOD hd-dvd is fighting back properly, I've been praying people won't make the mistake of letting Sony win.
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|Sony is repeating the same mistakes it make in the 1980's with their Betamax format versus JVC's VHS format. It's just a matter of time until Sony starts making HD DVD players. And yes, Betamax was the better format also.
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|I might buy one just because of price. No different to those who own VCD players along with their DVD players. If there's content from the HD-DVD camp that makes it worthwhile, then so be it. Ultimately I believe Blu-Ray is the better solution. Let's hope we see some cheap players soon!
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|Whoa... you'd better not let anyone from blu-ray.com hear you say that. You'll be branded as a traitor and banned for life. :)
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|The extra's really mean nothing to me on any DVD Hi-def or regular. I'll watch them once at most if at all. The space used would be better off spent on less compression if any is used on the disc.
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|I have both. I prefer watching them in BluRay only because they load and play so quickly on my PS3.
Also I chose BluRay over HD-DVD when buying discs, when I can, because of the scratch resistant coating on BluRay.
Other than that I have no other real deciding factors presented to me as a consumer. End of story.
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|I don't buy in to the scratch resistant coating. I use netflix and titles are mixed pretty evenly between the two formats and I've had issues with 3 blu-ray titles and zero HD DVD's. In one case it was clearly chipped, but the other two it was hard to tell. I'm not sure if it was the disc or not, but seems logical to me.
In the end - If you take care of your discs, they'll last.
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|"In the end - If you take care of your discs, they'll last."
Exactly. It is not a difficult task either. It is as simply as putting it back in its' case instead of leaving it laying around.
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|Exactly.
I couldn't care less about supposed scratch-resistant coating. With proper care, there's nothing much to worry about. I know accidents happen, but even with CDs it has to be a pretty bad accident to render it useless.
I grew up with vinyl, so I know a thing or two about proper care.
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|Yeah. I hate buying at Best Buy and having them ask me 5 times if I want the extra protection.
I've never had a problem with any single disc I've ever owned. It comes out of the case, goes in the player and then goes back in the case.
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|hd-dvd has a simular coating now anyway
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|From what I have read, BR needs the extra scratch resistance because the data layer on the disc is so much closer to the surface. Off the top of my head, I think it is 0.1mm vs 0.6 for HD-DVD (and regular DVD).
This is what helped it to have higher capacity, but also has it's disadvantages - scratches and lower yields (at least right now).
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|That's right. HD-DVD is about as scratch resistant as a standard DVD - and can be repaired the same way. As Blu-Ray has the data so close to the surface of the disc, the protective coating is needed, and if that's damaged there's little one can do.
Either way, until there's an easy way to backup the media so I don't need to worry about scratches I might just sit on the fence and watch. :p
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|I have laserdiscs that are still scratch free! Just take care of your stuff and they will last longer.
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|If you take care of the disk the scratch resistance is not needed. I have over 500 DVDs and none of them are scratched.
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|Same here... cumbersome, but resilient lil' buggers. :)
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|I have a couple hundred myself, none of which are scratched.
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|My PS3 just played ratatooui yesturday with absolutely ZERO loading times. A brand new disney movie, and yes it did warn me about loading times, then banm, right into the movie.... so maybe other players have long times, but I for one dont like the HDDVD times, on my frineds xbox it was 3 minutes to watch troy... what a joke. Not sure how stand alone players act, but the PS3 is just fine.
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|I have not seen any loading times with my Xbox HD player, never knew there was such a thing...
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|I have never experienced any loading times on my Xbox HDDVD addon. I mean I've never counted the seconds, but since nothing has ever jumped out at me as taking a very long time, I'd say it's the same as a DVD or so. Just pop it in and go.
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|yeah, i have read about the long load times on the XBox 360 add-on too.
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|If you knew anything that was to download the interactive features. I guess you should expect the information to just materialize in front of you. God try at trolling there pit$ingo.
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|like ive been saying, the low price for what you get. Both formats give you hd video, anything extra is just well extra and not what consumers will probably care about. Price for both consumers and manufacturers is paramount since bd doesn't have anything so great that will overwhelm hdvd's price point
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|In the end all that matters is the movies. I don't know a single person who buys a dvd for the extras. They buy them for the movie. I know I do.
Someone arguing the extra features are what makes their products better reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy", where the people keep touting the Gatorade knockoff over water because "it's got electrolytes".
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|Just like the original PC buyers some decades agi bought machines for the internet to post uneducated opinions?
Fortunately an individual's lack of imagination and vision is not stopping progress in general...
Still I don't think this will last long in competition to view on demand (that's what will come after 'extras' Weezu...)
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|The movies have nothing to do with. Just like Apple's selection of music has nothing to do with it. People buy the ipod and then go see what kind of music they can get for it.
If Apple's music collection was very small, then people would notice. But it's got about the same amount as the other guys. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have "about the same", so it then comes down to price and/or style. But people dont care about style in their stereo cabinet, the same way they care about style when they're at the gym.
One other thing that is often overlooked is the name. As Microsoft shows over and over again, successful marketing works better with a simple and familiar name.
Average Joe/Mom/Jane says
"HD-DVD? Oh I get it, it's a DVD but in HD".
"Blu-Ray? What kind of new fangled techno jargon is that?"
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|I find it interesting how the blo ray shills attack HD for slow loading but the new Disney films say on the display that movie may take a few minutes to load. Don't see them complaining about that. Tards.
Hopefully HD will only build on the sales from last week. Pricing is what it is all about. The article says that the best selling blu ray player is the 300. Isn't that already obsolete with the rumored 1.1 profile update that it can not do? The fact remains that HD is final and the movies look and sound incredible.
This is from bluray.com.
"Your going to sit 2 hours through a movie, but you can't sit 2 minutes while it loads? Go pop some corn or get a drink, The load times on the S300 never bothered me, but then again, I have patients."
Yet they attack HD for load times that are the same or less. I don't get it.
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|I don't care what someone's argument is about load times, if they can't use proper English and make the distinction between "your" and "you're", as well as "patience" and "patients", they're going to look like an idiot to me, and I'm not going to listen to them. LOL
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|The world doesnt evolve around native english speakers you know. There are some of us who are not native to english and making the mistake of "your" & "you're" is quite common.
If you cant deal with it then ignore it.
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|While true, there are plenty of native English speakers who still screw that up. And yes, they're 'tards.
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|It's one thing to be a non-native speaker, which I understand and allow for. It's when you are a *native* speaker of the language like Americans and Britons that I don't give any quarter for such an obvious grammar mistake.
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|I knew we would hear from the unhappy village oaf (Joey). Let's let the numbers speak for themselves and see what it looks like come January 1st.
I am above you and your silly retarded comments. You are basically an angry nobody.
We all noticed Steve and DaveBG are gone, did you retire them like you did with Mark Gillespie? I wonder how blu-ray.com feels about your "mission" and it's ultimate failure. Do they know you single handedly sold about 100 HD-DVD players yourself?
Thank you Joey. I'm sure Toshiba appreciates everything you've done for the HD-DVD format.
Watching you try to argue with obviously superior intellect is like watching a chimp solve a Rubiks Cube. You just keep @(*%)#& it up worse. You are dealing with people who have common sense and think objectively, not shill lemming zombie drones like yourself, if you want people to agree with your nonsense, go back to blu-ray.com.
You can still continue to post here though, the red side needs the sales.
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|The two P's will win the war:
Price
Porn
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|I honestly don't think porn is as big of a deciding factor as most people believe.
Everyone knows the internet is for porn. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPTnxrZeCWE
Price though... definitely.
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|I'm surprised no one has brought this up from the other thread about MPEG-LA:
"According to today's running tally maintained by HiDefDigest.com, 61% of the US' 197 Blu-ray titles are encoded using MPEG-2, versus a mere 2 MPEG-2 titles on HD DVD."
If Blu-Ray is such a superior format, why are they using such an ancient codec for such a large percentage of their titles?
*Mortal Combat Announcer Voice:*
HD-Puppets versus Blu-Muppets...
Round two.... FIGHT!
FINISH HIM!
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|That is why they brag about space they use that draconian compressions scheme.
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|There are also a few titles that are on 2 discs (movie and extras) and each disc is only the BD-25 disc.
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|The majority of those MPEG-2 titles were released in 2006; in 2007 almost 75% of releases have been AVC or VC-1. Incidentally, many of those "ancient" MPEG-2 releases have been reviewed as having identical video quality to the same title's VC-1 release on HD DVD. MPEG-2 can produce just as good of quality if you can throw enough bits at it (which Blu-ray allows for, HD DVD not so much).
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|Oh there is two disc blu-ray releases?
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|I know of at least one '2 disc' release for each side of the battle: Spider-man 3 for Blu, and Clerks 2 for HD.
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|Well that’s interesting.
Kinda blows the whole space argument out of the water if a blu studio is willing to put content across two discs. I’m all for extra’s on a separate disc in any format.
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|I am not saying HD-DVD has already won the war becasuse that is not true. I will say if Sony/Blu ray don't release a sub-$200 or a sub-$300 PS3 soon it will start getting ugly. My dad even picked up a HD-DVD player this weekend, that was because of the price. Microsoft is providing alot support to Toshiba and the HD-DVD. If Microsoft ever gets the competitor on the ropes the fight will usually be over soon.
Mac -> PC
Netscape -> Internet Explorer
Real Player -> Windows Media Player
Palm -> Windows Mobile
Word Perfeft -> Word
Lotus 1,2,3 -> Excel
Lotus Email -> Outlook
I am sure they are more.
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|Sony can't and won't.
If they did release a sub $200 player, what would it be? There's no profile 1.1, let alone 2.0 profile players out there. Even at $200, who wants to buy a player that will need to be replaced in the near future?
The PS3 is the only player out right now that is supposed to be upgradable to 1.1 and possibly 2.0, and I don't see them dropping the price another $200.
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|Just a few words, VHS vs Betamax... history will repeat the same result.
For some reason Sony always seems to lose to the other format. I think it is because they always make a format much better than the other one but much more expensive, this is why they lose again and again.
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|If these statistics are correct, you might be right. Betamax was clearly superiour to VHS, but more movies were available on VHS, plus vhs tapes could record 3 hours as opposed to Betamaxs'1 hour format, so VHS outsold and dominated the market. The price is going to be a big factor, and if the price is right...
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|I think the reason is simple. They produce a product that has advantages over other products that a small percentage of consumers will realize.
Blu-ray is not superior to HD DVD. At best, its slightly better and you'd need top of the line equipment to discern any difference.
That is their problem.
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|"Blu-ray is not superior to HD DVD. At best, its slightly better and you'd need top of the line equipment to discern any difference."
As far as movie viewing goes, you're right. They both can use the same video codecs, and audio is fairly similar (remember, the compressed audio on HD DVDs does not mean that its a lossy compression).
There are some differences between the 2, and usually, it comes down to the transfer of the movies (meaning that sometimes the differences are noticable on less than 'top of the line' gear).
Take Silent Hill, for example (yes, it's available on HD DVD as a German import). Online reviews of the BR version (mpeg2 encode) generally slam the transfer, due to some compression artifacts in certain scenes. The German HD DVD release (VC1 encode), is a lot cleaner, and doesn't suffer from the same issues as its BR cousin.
As a movie format, HD DVD has delivered consistantly, IMO. BR seems better suited for data storage.
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|This whole format battle will be over after these holidays. With HD-DVD players some $200 cheaper than Blu-Ray players, and in the sweet spot of under $200, they are going to be flying off the shelves. If Toshiba can produce enough of them so retailers can keep them on the shelves, the HD-DVD install base is going to be _way_ ahead of Blu-Ray.
And since alls the HD-DVD players do is play movies, the movie sales is going to tilt _way_ in favor of HD-DVD.
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|It looks like most of these players were sold as second players to people already with an HD DVD player, or as an upgrade to an add-on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Blu-ray has won every week's worth of sales in discs so far this year and with the studio advantage will continue to do so right throughout the Christmas season.
What you also fail to mention is that Toshiba has not only priced all other CE's out of the HD DVD game, but the Chinese manufacturers as well.
With these sort of numbers so early in the game and so small compared to DVD, it's easy to see that Toshiba is playing right into the hands of the BDA.
When you see HD DVD from one company and Blu-ray Disc players from EVERYONE else and cannot find movies from Walt Disney on HD DVD, nor Spider-man, Die Hard, Aliens, Simpsons Movie, New Line Cinema releases when they first come out due to lack of region coding on HD DVD, etc., etc., etc., it's only a matter of time before Warner flies the HD DVD coop and Universal won't be far behind.
HD DVD has not got its groove back, it lost it on December 24th, 2006 when Blu-ray started selling more discs every week and until that changes, the last dance is underway.
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|Glad to have you aboard dobyblue. Been lurking long? :)
It's good to get some fresh perspective from the blu-ray.com camp.
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|"and until that changes, the last dance is underway."
Expect that to change within the next month, tops.
You folks simply dcan not comprehend, or do not realize how strong a factor BASIC economics plays here. The winner, with feature-sets so close, will be the first to hit the sub-200 price-range and stay there.
That's the way it works. The majority buys the cheaper product, regardless of support, minor format differences, or backing. They see 2 HD players, one at $400, one at $200. They will buy the $200.
There is not a single appliance industry in existence that does not play be these rules. The only exception being successful (and by successful, I mean massive) marketing making the general public believe there is only one real option (eg: iPod).
Sorry, bud. BluRay will probably hang on for a while, but unless they can mount a massive marketing campaign (focusing on the name, not the tech...people couldn't care less about the tech when it comes to marketing) or drop the prices yesterday, it will fail.
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|Welcome new fuder. What a bunch of crap you are spewing. How are those profile 1.1 players going? Yeah thought so its just your little wet dream. Disney has a reputation for picking the loser can anyone say Dixv. How many of those wonderful bloray players are made in China? By the way the player that I bought for a gift was made in Japan. Nice try though loser.
As sales continue to rise the studios exclusive to blo will start to see money being lost and either go neutral or defect all together.
Maybe the moderators here will have to resort to childish stunts like at your bloray site and start banning people that are not on their side.
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|"can anyone say Dixv."
Well hell, apparently you can't type it. :p
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|What most people do not realize (especially the Blu Ray Fanboys) is that until now the only people who have been buying HiDef (both formats) are the audio/video enthusiasts, who will in most cases buy the ‘best format’ no matter the cost. However that group represents a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the regular Joe public who could not care less about the ‘best format’ and just want to get HD at home for a price they can afford.
Until now they have been waiting on the shore not wanting to jump in. Now that the price of the HD-DVD players has dropped below the $200 range, it’s the best option to just get HD at home.
The war has only just begun, and Joe public will make the deciding vote, and from what I am seeing it’s all HD-DVD. Yet again Sony makes a great product but fails to read the mass market and ends up tripping over unit price and copy protection software.
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|You folks simply dcan not comprehend,
Nice to see you attack someone for a typo and in the very next post make one yourself.
How do you define douchebag
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|You are DAVEY, LOL. man...
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|"Nice to see you attack someone for a typo and in the very next post make one yourself."
Attack? Did you miss the tongue-in-cheek emoticon? (Look up Skitt's Law)
"How do you define douchebag"
You seem to fit the bill quote nicely. Totally off topic, while claiming everyone else is wrong and not posting anything that might actually give you a leg to stand on.
I'd actually call you a troll, but I'll let you choose the insult this time.
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|Er...no. Name's not Dave, but good guess.
Been around here a hell of a lot longer than most.
Besides, isn't "Davey" a blu-ray fanboy?
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|Yes he is, he's got the knee pads on constantly.
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|Ouch. You hate him that much?
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|"What most people do not realize (especially the Blu Ray Fanboys) is that until now the only people who have been buying HiDef (both formats) are the audio/video enthusiasts"
Very smart post and spot on :) Good to see some people thinking with their heads
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|I suggest banning this blu-ray.com immigrant just on general principal. :)
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|I will never care as I will never buy HDDVD or Bluray again... They quite frankly are a waste for what little they are. I will stick to the tried and true DVD traditional High quality always works format. And be all the more happy about it.
DVDs on upscalers are better then anyone cares to admit.. and DVD even without the upscalers are perfectly fine for just about ANY TV in existence old or HD.
Its only the Technologically Anal that insist that HD anything is the end all be all of anything. Take a guess why? They got the shaft up the bung hole for the Early adopter foolishness, and in the end what little they did get, more often then not, was near twice the cost of a traditional DVD of the same product.
And now add in all the new titles practically needing new machines as the firmware updates make the older expensive machines practically crap, with freezes skips and digital image breakups...
Wow. Thanks but no thanks...
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|That's exactly the reason why I've ordered an Oppo DV-980H for the time being.
I'm clearly an HD DVD supporter, but I'm waiting until some of the better players come down in price more.
Of the two formats, the only consumers I still consider 'early adopters' are the ones who choose Blu-ray players... still to this day. Far less risk of being left out in the cold is assumed with HD DVD players.
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|"I will stick to the tried and true DVD traditional High quality always works format."
You da man. I won't be buying anything HD for t least 2 years yet. Just not enough in it for me. My current oldest TV set has at least 2 years left on it I figure before I need to replace it.
At that point, I doubt SD will be available any longer, so...
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|for broadcast you have til feb 17th, 2009
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|Don't need a new TV for that. My existing TVs will continue to function with my existing cable provider just fine.
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|But hang on, Hollywood told us there would be millions of these available..
Based on recent HD DVD lies, expect the real number to be much less than 90,000 units. (45,000?)
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|Well considering Walmart had 2 million of these things earlyier, none left now. This year must of sold well for them
Recent HD-DVD Lies? This should be interesting please explain.
Please enter your link to a blog with speculation here: ________________________
Link to a 'insider' posting on 'insert your favorate blu-ray forum here' a forum here: ________________________
Other than that, should be good what you come up with.
For everyone else, enjoy the "LIES, MISINFORMATION AND COMPLETE RUBBISH" that's about to follow from Joey.
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|there's crazy 8
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|Liar
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|First it's 50,000, and now 45,000? When people who actually know what they are talking about are posting numbers double that, if not *much* higher?
Come on, make it 10. It's not like you credibility could possibly get any lower...
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|Still crying about the sale I see. How many did blu ray sell last week?
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|they sold 7
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|Joey must have bought all of those to try to get the numbers up.
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|Hate to admit but Disney seems to be putting the hurt on them in movie sales though. In the top 10 Blu-Ray movies on Amazon half of them are Disney/Pixar. On the HD DVD side even the number one movie has a sales rank way down at 53, and it's some BBC thing called Planet Earth.
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|@ Banquo -- this happens to both formats. Sometimes HD DVD has a few titles killing the Blu-ray titles, then something comes out for Blu-ray and it's their turn. Nothing new there.
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|There will be ALOT of disapponted new HD DVD owners this Xmas, finding their favorite movies are not available on thei shiny new player.
Before you know it, it will be sat next to the Wii in the cupboard gathering dust as another bad impulse buy.
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|A LOT
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|says you, which means nothing
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|@ MidnightWatcher - can you point out where HD DVD titles have "killed" the Blu-ray titles. Isn't 51:49 in favour of Blu-ray the best sales ratio HD DVD's had this year when it had the first $300+ million blockbuster released exclusively on the format and it couldn't even beat the Blu-ray sales of the neutral title "300" which had over $100 million LESS in box office takings?
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|Not available... funny.
http://blog.compete.com/...28/netflix-bluray-hddvd
* Those who set an HD format as their preferred format selected HD-DVD over Blu-ray by a factor of 2.4 to 1.
* Those who looked at the HD-DVD genre were 4.4 times more likely than Blu-ray browsers to actually set this as their preferred format.
I wonder why that is...
Sorry, keep reaching. Not everyone feels the need to organize massive buy-a-thons to attempt to sway studio support to one format over the other. Studios are just as likely to take into account rental sales these days to accurately gauge demand for their titles and make an informed decision.
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|I'll see those movies next year on HD when they discover that the market in HD is more profitable. Didn't Disney do real well on the DIVX format. Oh yeah that is dead too.
If blo ray didn't have disney they would be in deep s***. Oh wait they are in deep s***.
Fav shows they are on HD don't know what you are referring to, maybe terrible shows like The Day After Tomorrow, no thanks.
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|Joey have you seen Transformers in HD? That's right, you have Blu Ray and no surround system in your apartment.
The receiver in the picture you posted doesnt decode dts let alone Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD. It's also hard to listen to movies with no center or rears, eh Joey.
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|"Wii in the cupboard gathering dust..."
The Wii is outselling the PS3 by a large margin. Game companies are dropping PS3 support and more are supporting the Wii. I remember before the Wii came out hardly and game companies were releasing titles for the Gamecube because they were not selling consoles. Now the roles are reversed Sony in not selling consoles and Nintendo is taken over the console market...
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|I guess the press release doesnt count?
Care to share a new press release backing up what you say about that 'neutral title'?
Note I said press release before you post a link to someone mouthing off speculation
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|too funny the walmart i got my a2 at doesn't carry any ps3 and has more wii games than anything else.... get over it you spent to much money on your ps3 and it didn't work out in your favor talking sh*t in here about very succesful hardware (wii) isn't goin make things any better for you but it will sell alot of hd-dvd's, oh yea thanks for the advance my kids love transformers on my a2
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|been to vgchartz in awhile http://www.vgchartz.com/
ps3 is getting slaughtered worldwide by the little wii that could.... jackass
American Chart, 03rd Nov 2007
1 xbox360 Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 798,671
2 wii Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 271,053
3 ps2 Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 254,596
4 Wii Sports 146,934
5 ps3 Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock 113,040
again if you want to bash a failing product might want to try the ps3
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|Haha, that's pretty sad when a Wii pack-in game beats out the PS3's top game in sales.
I will say that it's good that the PS3 finally got a version of Guitar Hero that actually works... though it required a specially-made controller for it. Any other guitar was out of the question (that is assuming the PS2 versions of the games worked in the first place on the PS3).
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|"There will be A LOT of disappointed new HD DVD owners this Xmas, finding their favorite movies are not available on their shiny new player."
I know that I've mentioned this a few times before; but since you decided to make this comment, I felt compelled to repeat it.
A large number of movies that are BR exclusive in the US are available, on HD DVD, as imports (with a few exceptions, they all have English language tracks). The lack of implementaion of a region-coding system means that they're guaranteed to play in a US bought HD DVD player.
Check out these 2 links for lists of BR titles available for import on HD DVD:
http://xploitedcinema.co...1c5e30e36b2ab6552bdc969
http://forums.highdefdig...m/showthread.php?t=3010
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|Just as we have learned from history (in the electronics industry), low price beats "superior" technology every time in the minds of the consuming public.
I like and admire Sony a great deal but they keep making the exact same mistakes over and over again, product after product. When are they going to learn?
They need to start paying more attention to the realities of the market. The driving forces in this market are always going to be the same and they are ALWAYS going to stack up in the same order, and with the same priority...with very few exceptions.
Unless Sony wakes up and responds to the competitive environment here, and does so very quickly, we could be looking at the early makings of a very impressive come from behind victory by the HD-DVD camp in this format "war". It is far too early to make that call at this point of course, but things did just get a whole lot more interesting, that's for sure.
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|"I like and admire Sony a great deal but they keep making the exact same mistakes over and over again, product after product. When are they going to learn?"
Never. It's a crappy corporation run by arrogant fat cats with their heads up their own a**es. The major reason so many people hate Sony is because they do no listen to their own customers and fans. Instead, they try to dictate what we SHOULD want, according to Sony. The PS3 is a prime example of this. They decided we all wanted a super high priced "entertainment center" in our living room with unproven, infantile "next-gen" technology - BluRay - attached to it.
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|Same mistakes over and over? They are still huge, and like any huge company you have some winners and some loosers. PS2? Huge! Bravia LCD's? Huge? Even 5 million PS3's isn't exactly a bad start for year 1 (vs. 10 million for 360 after 2 years - seems to be an even race).
Quit b****ing about the PS3 having Blu-ray... whether the movie format lives or dies, PS3 games are still going to come on it so get over it. For $99 or $199 or whatever, you can afford to have both. Next year 360 is going to have HD-DVD out of the box and then everyone can start b****ing AGAIN about changing formats...
Within 2 years, spinning discs will be done, finito, caput! A 16GB SD-ROM can hold a whole HD movie, will be stamped out for a buck, and a HD-player will be all software. This hardware 'war' is a temporary thing... either sit it out, or stop whining.
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|Here is the nuts of the problem:
Contary to what the BetaPuppets here tell you, Blu-ray is not a Sony product, it's many manufacturers and studios.
No single Blu-ray hardware manufacturer can dump the price of the players way below their real cost, in an attempt to get a leg up, for fear of upsetting the Blu-ray apple cart.
Because HD DVD is only Toshiba on the hardware side, they can sell players for a buck, and it's only their losses to worry about, nobody else to p1ss off..
That said, fire sales for your product are not a long term buisness plan..
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|Microsoft can't fit HD DVD as standard, as that would be a trojan horse, and forcing on consumers, and not giving them choice... LOL..
Wonder what story the BetaPuppets will come up with to cover that aboutface...
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|"It's a crappy corporation run by arrogant fat cats with their heads up their own a**es."
That sounds VERY much like Microsoft...
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|"fire sales for your product are not a long term buisness plan"...
Maybe not, but this sounds like a good plan for Toshiba, "Toshiba and Sony have signed a memorandum of understanding that outlines the creation of a new joint venture that will put Toshiba in control of the production of the Cell processor and the RSX graphics engine of the PS3."
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|Congratulations on your promotion to BetaPuppet then now your a regular poster.
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|"That said, fire sales for your product are not a long term buisness plan.. "
If you even had the slightest understanding of the purpose of that kind of sale and the slightest understanding of business plans you might start to comprehend what the hell is going on.
You lack both and continue to show people who look at this forum why they shouldn’t go out and take a gamble with a blu-ray player.
Instead you rather make a complete mockery of yourself, and no-one backs your ridiculous statements up. It’s always you. In the short space of a week you have managed to completely destroy any credibility you may have had upon first coming here.
Oh and you should look up what projects Sony started to do with blu-ray. Lots of companies in the group sure, but initially it was them. Later another company aided with another part.
I'm amazed at how you still manage to try and spin s*** to support your view. How many other forums do you twist your bulls*** on?
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|Actually it sounds more like Apple.
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|Sony may not be the only manufacturer, but they have been one of the most vocal proponents of the format. By pushing it the way they have with the PS3, they've put more in home then had they stayed with stand-alone players; but the cost of that decision is a contributing factor to the less than stellar sales numbers of the PS3.
Your right about fire-sales...they haven't seemed to help the PS3 overtake...um, anyone...in total consoles sold to date.
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|Nah, he's a Blu-Puppet through and through. I knew this news would twist his panties. He hasn't made one coherent statement yet.
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|Your stupidity really has no limits.
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|Really? ... and you have never heard of ink jet printers?
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|Could you please explain this crazy post? It makes absolutely no sense.
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|Well said. I agree 100%.
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|I think he tried to be a smartass without releasing how terribly stupid it was to post that from the blu-ray side.
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|Very good point. :)
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|"That sounds VERY much like Microsoft..."
The enormous difference being that Microsoft does in fact listen to their customers, at least to some degree. They also learn from their mistakes and don't keep repeating them. Something that cannot be said about Sony. They should just change their slogan to "History repeats itself" because the company is a walking cliche.
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|I agree.
Off-topic, but it also sounds like the greedy anti-virus corporations who whined about Microsoft doing the "right thing" with Vista's kernel Patch Guard... corporations who based their entire business model on the shortcomings of Microsoft's previous products.
People can say what they want about Microsoft, but they indeed do try to listen to public opinion and offer the consumer what they want. Other large corporations seem like they're all talk most of the time... especially Sony.
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|Word is they will do it again for Black Friday but no one will confirm it just yet. Wal Mart managers and IC specialists are the first to know about it.
You will see a difference in the Amazon movie sales numbers in the next few weeks and especially the two weeks before Christmas.
Good job on the story Ed, it's just what Joey wants to hear.
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|Interesting AVS closed their HD forum because of the amount of bulls*** that graced there.
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|@Setian - That's what happens when the Blu-boys start seeing red.
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|That's just one weekend.
Fantastic job! That's how Sony should have done it. Given Sony's***ory of overpriced products, I don't believe anyone actually expects them to follow suit to this degree.
Chalk up another Sony-led format that will never reach the public on a massive scale due to their stubbornness, greed, and general inability to listen to what consumers want and act on it.
Thanks Ed. I was starting to wonder how long it would take to get these figures in.
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|You lack of understanding astounds me.
See my reply above, as to why Sony can't dump the price of players in silly PR stunts.
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|See Joey's post as to why he thinks sony cant lower the price of blu-ray players.
Ask sony yourself if you like to know the real reason instead of some speculated crap...again
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|Shoosh... go back to your room and let the big boys talk now.
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|Should we also look at your post yesterday claiming they only sold 50,000?
Perspective and context makes all the difference, doesn't it, JD?
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|Sony: Betamax
Sony: Minidisc
Sony: Blu-Ray
You decide.
Thanks for playing.
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|don't forget the recent UMD or SACD
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|Oh right, my bad.
Thanks for the additional Sony failures.
Let me also add the rootkit that Sony added to their media a while back, that sure went well.
There are 1001 reasons not to choose a Sony technology.
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|SACD is not dead the blu ray players can read them so they must be great. DO they even still sell those disks? I haven't seen any in stores in ages.
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|SACD is still around, the same as DVD-Audio... they're just niche formats, the same as Blu-ray soon.
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|I did, and you explained absolutely nothing, as usual.
Try again.
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|Get it right dude...
You forgot the exploding batteries.
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|I was about to say yes, take a photo of some I recently purchased and upload... Then when I checked, they were not SACD.
Could have sworn they were :) At least in Japan, seems I am wrong
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|"To the best of my knowledge, the last time Sony introduced a format that became the de facto industry standard was the 3.5" diskette--in 1983."
"Take a look at the admittedly incomplete list of proprietary devices or formats that Sony has introduced in the last fifteen years or so."
Mini-Disc (1991)--custom disc format, and used ATRAC audio compression, which is proprietary.
Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (1993)--a competitor to the Dolby Digital 5.1 standard.
Multi-Media Compact Disc (1994)--Sony's proprietary format for high-density optical storage, developed in conjunction with Phillips. Negotiations merged this format and Toshiba's Super Density disc format into what would become DVD.
Music Clip (1999)--Sony's first digital player, used ATRAC audio compression.
HiFD (1998)--a competitor to Iomega's Zip drive.
Memory Stick (1998)--proprietary memory device as a competitor to SD and Flash memory.
Super Audio CD (1999)--an optical disc format with higher fidelity than the CD.
PSP (2004)--Uses Universal Media Disc (UMD) media, a proprietary media format.
Source: http://dubiousquality.bl...t.com/2006/07/sony.html
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|Nicely presented. Kudos. :)
"Universal Media Disc (UMD) media, a proprietary media format."
That still cracks me up to this day. How are you going to offer a proprietary format and have the audacity to call it 'universal'? I don't recall hearing about a single UMD player aside from the PSP.
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|I used to see them on a display at B&N then suddenly the display started shrinking then just disappeared so I figured that it was buried. I say the same for DVD audio.
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|Don't Forget-
Sony: ATRAC
-Their failed attempt at replacing MP3 and WMA, now they have dropped support of ATRAC in all their portable audio players from this model year on, their player only do MP3 and WMA, and just recently supported Apple's ACC format with a software upgrade. Sony always does this, HD DVD will end up winning because of:
1. Price
2. Name association (buyers recognize "DVD")
3. Rememberance of Sony mistakes.
I've had 2 HDTV's in my house for over a year now and with cable HD being rediculously priced in my area, living in a low altitude beach area which gives me no over-the-air reception, I almost busted a nut when I got the Toshiba A2 for $99 to finally get some decent HD source to my HDTV's, and on top of that, I have bought 9 HD DVD's in the last week-man I haven't even bought 9 regular dvd's in the last 2 years!!! And the main factor has always been the price, even as a former manager with Radio Shack and working for a Sony outlet store, 80% of customers shop on price, we all know that-As much as I love my house full of Sony products, this whole format war is going to be over soon because the HD DVD camp is giving consumers what they want.
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|I expected about 50,000 max, but 100,000 is awesome to say the least. HD DVD -- perfect look, perfect sound, and perfect price.
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|I must say I expected a much higher figure but I guess it does not include everything. It was number one on consumer electronic goods on Amazon so I guess they must of pushed a lot out.
Thinking about it more, thats just over one weekend too!. Suddenly the word hd-dvd is in the publics mind.
Regardless, this is going to have a larger impact than most blu-ray supporters are going to admit.
Let the spin begin :)
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|you probably wished it was worse but I am sure the numbers are better than you thoght and it is just starting. we have not even reached black friday yet.
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|hey, I'm new here and just finished reading all these posts. Alot of good thoughts, some a little angry.
I'm one of those "I dont really care which format" guys. I was one of thousands of ppl around the country who went out and said, since it's soo cheap now, I'll get a high def dvd player. I didnt say to myself I want this format or that format. I only knew I could get a good player for only $100. After swetting it up, both the King Kong HD movie and StarWars3 looked increadable. My older Sammy upscaler did not look as good, nor sound nearly as good as my HD-A2 for the opening battle in StarWars3.
Anyone who knows how consumer product sales work will tell you that the less expensive and most sold will win.
Since there were around 50,000 or more players sold, that means there are that many new ownwers who will be buying new HD-DVD movies in the new 2 months.
My personal opinion is that HD-DVD will more likely win. But you never know. I'm biased now that I own HD-DVD player ofcourse.
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|I was waiting for affordable players to come out in HD and now they are here. These statistics that Blue Ray supporters keep touting in terms of #s of discs being sold are very misleading. Until now, Blue ray enjoyed a huge head start with the Sony Playstation player base. These players were game consols that gamers bought and then realized that they already owned and HD format player. Naturally, these teenage boys were pre-sold on supporting Blue ray; they already owned one. But the advantage has just about expired. Nwe sub $200 and even su $100 HD DVD players will decide this format war in favor of HD DVD. Wal-Marts backing of an affordable HD format can not be overlooked. Wal-Mart's power was merely glimpsed last weekend. Anytime they choose, they can end this thing once and for all. Each of the roughly 90,000 players sold last weekend will create an additional .5 million discs sold. This will quickly out sell Blue ray and studios going Blue-ray exclusively will have to change course. Disney and Fox cannot ignore this growing market. Once they agree to release HD DVD, the final nails will be in Blue-ray's coffin. This war has turned into Japan vs. America for control of the pre recorded home video format. American Studios largely backing Hd DVD and Sony and the Japanese manufactureres backing Blue Ray. Sony and the Japanese consortium are trying to lock up pre-recorded video sales for all time. Sony aimed to steal the highly successful DVD away from the studios and replace it with something they controlled. The American studios cannot let this happen. HD-DVD was their best shot at defending thier ground. It looks like the good guys are going to win this war after all. Thanks to Wal-Mart for the big assist!
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|The numbers are not better than I thought :)
I just badly under-estimated how well hd-dvd players must have sold this year to move all the original shipments out.
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|There is a problem that no one seems to have addressed. Blu-ray is counting on ps3 sales to drive it's movie sales and not it's stand alone player. This is evident in all the PR interviews where they list the ps3 as it's most potent weapon. The problem is that out of the 6+ million ps3 owners only 1 in 5 uses it to play movies. Add to the fact that they've sold less than a 300,000 stand alone players and it begins to paint a picture. Hd-dvd is selling(pior to this weekend) stand alone players at a rate of 4 to 1. Now everybody ask yourselves this what sells more the ps2(yes I meant ps2) or stand alone dvd players? You see when dvd was first introduced the ps2 represented a large portion of machines that could play dvd's and was one of th chapest on the market at the time. problem this generation is that the market is split for high resolution disc players. hd-dvd on one side blu ray on the other, but isuue is price, penetration, and disc sales. Now all this yaer blu ray has out sold hd-dvd disc's 2 to 1, but it should be more alot more considering there are 6+ million possible customers, but the double edged sword is why studios are at a loss, 6+ million POSSIBLE custmers besause of ps3 but on 1 in 5 use it while all of the 1+ million hd-dvd owners use it to play movies. So if toshiba can increase the rate of sale from 4 to 1 up to 8 to 1 based on price then by there own numbers blu ray will be in serious trouble. Basically if toshiba can sustain a 50,000 a week sell through even though sony sell 75,000 ps3's a week toshiba can possibly permanently kill blu ray in less than a year.
75,000 ps3's = 15,000 blu ray users
50,000 hd-dvd = 50,000 hd-dvd
assuming the same 4 to 1 ratio 50,000 hd-dvd means that 12,500 blu ray players were sold
15,000 blu ray playing ps3's + 12,500 stand alone players = 27,500 blu ray users
At this rate in less than a year the landscape for the next disc format could heavily favor hd-dvd. Remember studios want to sell movie disc's and according to there own numbers only 1 in 5 ps3 usrs are dong this.
Basically there gonna be killed by there own trojan horse.
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|I'm sorry, but trying to read your post gives me a huge headache. Please learn the difference between the words "there", "their", and "they're" instead of just using "there" in place of all three. They may sound the same phonetically, but they have very different meanings.
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|I think it's only a matter of time now before HD DVD takes over the HD disk market-have any of you been to your local electronics stores since the $99 A2 blowout? In my area all of a sudden Walmart has a bigger HD DVD section, my Best Buy has 3 packed 6ft HD DVD sections instead of 1 (their blu-ray always had 3)F.Y.E all of a sudden has a HD DVD section. Kmart has them now (and announced that they are HD DVD exclusive)and everyone I talk to in stores or read their posts online confirm that the price of HD DVD players has sparked a flame, I really finaly feel that there is a battle now, I didn't count the PS3 vs original Toshiba A1 because we all knew dir hard Playstation fan boys would buy a $600 PS3 but most consumers wouldn't jump on a new DVD technology when their old DVD players were fine. There is a format war between HD DVD and Bluray, and it started this month-ring the fight bell now!
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|