You know...what boggles my mind, is at what point did the OS a person uses really become that great of an issue? Why (and when) did this insane emotional attachment to something essentially intangible first rear it's head? I've sat here and read 200+ comments from essentially the same people, saying the same things..."Linux is better...no, Windows is, blah blah blah". Here's a novel concept; use whatever you want, and stop degrading each other for their choice. If I went through a text of this, and replaced every instance of Windows with Ford and Linux with Chevy, it would sound like an conversation overheard at a hillbilly redneck picnic. ;)

But hey...you guys keep on spending time argueing...I'll be doing something *fun* with my system...whatever OS it's running. ;)

As i have a MSc in Computer Science from a respectable London Univercity(London,England for all of you that dont have a clue where this is),i have studyed Operating System courses and software courses(In partucular High Integrity Software).

1)Windows Is NOT a OS.Its a Poor attempt.Read Any book on the fundamentals of OS's and you will realise that there is a lot wrong with Windows.As a programmer i have stopped programming in/for Windows.Its just not worth it and you always end up with a crap program.

2)High Integrity Software is about writing Programs that almost Never Fail(hence software to control AirPlanes,heart implants,military applications etc.)
A lot of it does not depend on the programmers,but on the Managment.No programer is good at everything.Its about Programing standarts and the right step taken by the management team.Its about knowing how the advantages and dissadvantages of the programming languages.So don't go and blame MS for the bugs in their software.Do you know how many people are involved in Windows,and where they live?Do you think there can be good comunication between programes over e-mail?One in USA the other in India and others in Austalia.I have been involved in several major projects that requre a communication between team in different countries.The Language barrier is another issue here,but it is a big one.Just click on the about screen of your IE to realise how many different version they have.
I am not saying that progs for linux are better,they are generally worse,as they are written by inexperienced self-educated people that dont have an idea what programing really is and dont have the necessary hardware knowledge.
Simply you can not write a program and not understand how memmory works and how it is implemented on the platform.
In all my experience i have only found a few programs that are nearly perfect(one is Qmail.)
Software is measured by Rate Of Failuare,Bugs per hours of programing time and so on.
So what i am trying to say is that programmers are not to blame,its usually the managment that is to be shot.

I personally use linux for work and Win XP for pleasure.
I have tweaked the OSes and have no problem with both.
Most of the people complain about bugs,but they have never written a program,and dont realise how hard it is to write one in a team of 5,let alone 20,000.
I never buy software,i think my money is better spend on hardware.Anyway MS has a fair point in charging $200 for a copy of XP.Just imagine the expenses they have.
Just a simple calculation 20000 programers an a $50k a year is 1 billion $.For 20000 programmers you will have at least 500 managers on 75k thats another 375mil $.And add the higher managment of the project and you have about 1.5bil $ just to pay the programers.What about ads?What about posters,stickers and stuff.And they have to make some money as well.There you go its a fair price.
I dont feel XP is any worse then 2k ot 98 or ME.Its just Windows.It will always be the same.

About the linux distributions i feel the best one is SUSE.The latest version is never available for download but its a good OS.It comes on a DVD and 7CDs.Its fully Plug and Pray :).Its dead easy to configure and administrate.Try it out.

On the subject of WPA.Well i bet they got rid of the really Lame "pirats".Its a big hastle for the companies but as i see they havent really rushed out to upgrade.Most of them stick to 2k.

Comming from a poor third-world counrty before comming to the UK, i was one of the 1st people to get a CD Writer.It was a 1x speed one and was very expensive.I had a very good
legal job selling pirated software and games.My country did not have any lows about computers back then :).
Piracy is a very very good form of advertising as well.
About 1% of the people using Windows have pirated copys.
But that 1% are the cream of the computing world.They talk about it to other people and hence advertise.
I dont believe MS i really concerned about piracy.They just try to make more money from the hornest people :).

Nikola Runev
gaida@bitex.com

Please send any comments to my email adress as well.

Ok, I was about to say something about your respectable university given your spelling (i.e. 'univercity') but then I read on so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that English is not your first language.

"Windows Is NOT a OS. Read Any book on the fundamentals of OS's ..."
Re-read that book, Windows is an OS, DOS is not (which is what you migth be thinking of).

"Its just not worth it and you always end up with a crap program."
A program will only ever be as good as the programmer writing it. Saying you can write 'better' programs based on the OS you use is bulls***. There may be better/worse toolkits, api's etc but at the end of the day, the OS does not determine wether or not your program is crap. (Unless of course you write you program in VB in which case it will always turn out to be crap).

"So what i am trying to say is that programmers are not to blame,its usually the managment that is to be shot."
I have to disagree, it's the whole software process that is to blame. If there is a bug in your program and it's not found it's due to the fact you didn't test enough, or audit enough etc etc.

"I never buy software,i think my money is better spend on hardware"
So you're a theif. Good stuff.

"I had a very good legal job selling pirated software and games."
I'm having difficulty with this one... How is it that your job of selling pirated software was legal? Is that like having a good legal job selling drugs to children?

man.. as long as companies sell overprized incomplete buggy software with lots of f*king annoying protections in them i say.: GO PIRATES!!.. For business you OFCOURSE you should buy!!!!!.. but 200++++$ for WindowsXP for a home user that doesnt WANT to run the crappy HOME edition is too f*king much!

As long as its just used on my private machine..not used for business or anything and just for my personal enjoyment there is no way in HELL id ever give ANY company that much money.. the hardware alone is expensive enough.. even tho it IS true that u get a LOT of hw for your money today.. the software that requires even FASTER hardware totally kills that argument..

GO Pirates GO Pirates GO Pirates..

If anyone is a hippocrit here its the f*king softwarecompanies with their overprices buggy crappy software and complete a** support..etc..!

Please not that we aren't calling YOU a hyppocrite.

We're stating flat out that you are a thief and are beneath contempt.

If you can't/won't afford the software, you don't need the hardware. So stop you crying about "having to spend money". Download Linux, and get support on that if you are so cheap.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Absolutely, I have no problems answering technical linux questions over ICQ for anyone who asks. I charge the insanely low price of $0.00

Fewt, you are still ripping people off! LOL!! (no matter what the price, it will always be "to high" to some people)

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Well, it was bound to happen some day. My freinds all have XP, and none of them are legit. I stay with my LEGIT copy of 98 until they fix XP for good. There is no way they could fix this, and i hope they understand this. They need to get sneaky and put verification stuff (other than a number) on the cd cases. When poeple active it, they would have to enter keywords, or better yet, make them say the keywords over the phone. At least make it really really hard for them to crack. Make it as difficult and time consuming as possible, so more people will be less inclined to do it! Im just 16, but it seems to me that i know more than these "smart guys". You want folks like my freinds to stop, make it really really really hard. Make it so only the pros can crack it. Thats the way to do it.

Are you really 16? Or do you just not have a clue into what goes into cracking copy protections. Keywords, even saying them over the phone do not necessarily make something any harder to crack.

"Make it as difficult and time consuming as possible, so more people will be less inclined to do it!"
If they do this then they will also cause themselves harm due to consumer complaints. The impossible task is to try and make the protection as difficult to bypass as possible whilst at the same time making it quick and painless for the consumer.

"Make it so only the pros can crack it."
How would this help? The 'pros' that cracked it would release the crack to everyone and your friends would still be running pirated versions.

If Microsoft is still making money from you using their pirated software is it still considered stealing?

Yes.

If you pirated the software int he first place then you are a thief. Plain and simple. Doesn;t matter "how" you are using it.

Speaking from my professional persona as an IT guy for a medium-sized business (approx. 250 users) I do have mixed feelings about WPA. Since I develop some business apps for Windows on the side, I can fully understand Microsoft's desire to protect their intellectual property... and yet at the same time I also know first hand the annoyances that go along with product activation. Activation is quite a hassle, and there is no real cost-effective reasons for getting a corp license to update from NT4 and 2000 since everything we run works perfectly well under those previous versions.

From a personal standpoint, I don't like XP as well and I have yet to see XP show any clearcut advantages over Win2k. I won't compare the merits of Windows vs. any other operating system because nearly all of the arguments are irrelevant or inconsequential to me. Windows will continue to be our operating system until somebody develops better software for what we do on another OS.

Don't get me wrong, there is no great love for MS on my part. Licensing is a headache, BSODs are a fact of life, and for home use I *will* run the same OS and software on as many machines as I feel like (with only one license). I explained this to our local MS rep who replied "as long as you aren't selling it, we don't give a rat's [posterior-end] what you do with the stuff at home."

"BSODs are a fact of life"

This is either because you A) Run Win9x or B) Run a VIA or some other craptacular chipset

No offense intended towards you, just pointing out that 2k/XP only bluescreen if you have some shotty drivers

What an unbelievable hypocrite.

You claim to understand the protection of intellectual propery and then you go on to describe the fact that you are illegally running copies of Microsoft Operating Systems at home.

It's simple. You are a thief and should be treated no differently than a guy who robs a liquor store.

MrStudent (no "A" for you this time)

you claim that BSODs are because of VIA chipset motherboards?!? All motherboards I use and sell are VIA chipset motherboards (using AMD CPUs). I have YET to see a BSOD that is due to VIA chipset, unless it is from me "playing" to much with unstable beta drivers. Maybe you need to take some time and do some research- VIA has been a very staunch supporter of AMD, and Intel has been trying everything it can to force them out of business, like trying to force OEMs to stop using VIA chipset boards, because "they use stolen technology" and crap like that.
Head over to Tom's Hardware Guide (www.tomshardware.com) and check it out for yourself.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Was your hero Bill Gates not also a thief??? Just ask Steve Jobs!!

The most ridiculous argument here (which you seem to be supporting) is that it's OK to steal from someone as long as you claim that at some point they stole something from someone else.

Whether Microsoft stole anything from Apple is irrelevant.

Stealing from Microsoft is still a crime and I say he should go to jail.

He should go to jail.....

What a crock you loser.

The activation key is a violation of peoples privicy and their right to use the OS on any system they own at home.

Bill Gates has been and will continue being a theif if anyone he should go to jail.

Since you seem to worship his company maybe you could join him loser.

Whoah whoah whoah - VIA chipsets are well-known for causing all kinds of problems that often result in BSOD's. Some products even come with documentation indicating they will not work with certain VIA chipset revisions (e.g. some HP printers when used with a USB interface).

This is not to say other chipsets are flawless, but VIA chipsets have had more than their fair share of glitches. It may be better now but around the time Windows 2000 was released, there were all kinds of issues.

docoverclock posted "The activation key is a violation of peoples privicy and their right to use the OS on any system they own at home"

Ok, the activation key is NOT a violation of "peoples privacy". Second, most EVERY piece of software you buy has in the EULA that "this product can only be installed and/or used on one machine". This means ONLY ONE system at a time can have that specific software on it, otherwise, you buy more licenses.
Besides, I would like to know where this "right to use the OS on any system they own" comes from. Driving is not a right, having a computer is not a right, owning software is not a right.
Your opinions of Bill Gates are yours and yours alone. If you want him in jail, PROVE where he has stollen anything, and have him prosecuted for it. Otherwise, it only makes you sound stupid.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

I was commenting about the "here and now", as that is what MrStudent seemed to be doing. I have been using Biostar motherboards for around a year and a half now pretty much exclusive in basic builds (others have ordered other boards, which is the way I do things), and have not had any problems with them. That is what I based my post on.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

As for warnings about hp printers? Ive done tech support for hp for over 2 years and never seen a warning about our printers and via chipsets. Personally I would rather install one on a via chipset. At least I know with via chipsets I can find drivers to fix any issues, AND those drivers work... lets see.. 82371 ab/eb - stable - excellent, intel 82801aa - heh... works half the time. ab - same.. intel 82801 ba/bam - now theres a pain in the arse.. Half the time if you have this with a laptop, usb wont work properly without a powered hub because of its power issues... my views may be more centered on the usb sides of the chipsets, but at least via patches theirs and doesn't make their customers shell out extra money for a hub or such because they cant design a real chipset...

All I can say is, Yay. I can finally buy a legit copy of windows xp pro from my school for $20 bucks. Seriously though, who would pay 200 bucks for a piece of software that needs to be replaced in just a couple of years. Oh wait, isn't that how much my sound card that I just bought cost? hmmm, oh well.

"who would pay 200 bucks for a piece of software that needs to be replaced in just a couple of years."

No one that understands TCO.

Huh?

While software costs are a small factor of TCO its hardly a significant factor. Most definitions of TCO clearly state that TCO can be 3 to 4 times the actual cost of a PC of which the OS is a fraction of that cost.

Until you start looking at large environments. Sure, in a 4 man shop TCO s*** to man hours. Look at 140,000 PC's then tell me O/S cost isn't a significant cost.

Huh?

While software costs are a small factor of TCO its hardly a significant factor. Most definitions of TCO clearly state that TCO can be 3 to 4 times the actual cost of a PC of which the OS is a fraction of that cost.

If the TCO is $10,000/yr for a machine and the OS is $100/yr that seems to me a small cost relating to TCO. In an environment where you're TCO is $1,400,000,000 and your OS costs are 14,000,000/yr I come to the same conclusion.

Compound this with the fact that NOONE in any environment where there are anywhere near 140,000 computers pays full retail price for OS's, and I don't see your logic.

You've never calculated TCO for a large organization have you?

Even with Enterprise Agreements and steep discounts, software and hardware costs scale pretty lineraly as the number of machine sincreases.

Manpower, training, and othe TCO factors do not scale linearly at all.

So as the number of machines increases (and becomes very large) the percentage of TCO accounted for by OS/software cost increases.

(Yes, I'm agreeing with fewt.....just get over it)

You've never gotten a very good deal on software for your organization have you? I'm not paying anywhere near $200 for an OS or for an office suite for that matter.

Explain to me how if it costs $200 for me to buy an OS off the shelf (1 computer) and it costs less than $25/seat (20,000 computers) for an enterprise how that is linear?

BTW, I have no problem with you agreeing with fewt ;-), get over it.

I myself woundlt pay for XP or any other M$ OS for that fact. I mean they put the WPA in XP to stop pirating their new software, I knew from the start that it would never stop pirating, it basically made people try harder to get around it. And the other reason I wont buy MS OS's us cause their too buggy (except 98SE) cause MS releaes a new OS like every year which is STUPID cause think about it, companies pay people to train their exployees and then 6 months down they road they have to do it all over again. The only MS OS id buy is 2K Pro and just stick with it, download the patches and all that other crap instead of upgrading OS's every year.

And MS needs to watch out for their beta testers and s***, I got my copy of XP 2 or 3 months before it was released in stores, that shows that MS dont really give a damn about what happens. The company I run everything it ram on Unix, stable as hell and had 7 months uptime, Ive never seen a Win OS hit 7 months.

Thats just my reaons why I wont buy MS OS's

Let's see. Someone complains about programs being buggy. After reading your post I do not wonder why programs are buggy. If Windows XP bugs were as bad as your grammar and spelling, the OS wouldn't even boot. Let this post act as an example of who should and should not have an opinion about what it takes to code.

Could it have cross your mind that this guy is probably not a native english speaker...

But of course... stupid me... You probably are speaking only english... And you probably think you don't need to speak another language... I'm sinicly happy for U...

I'm curious...where do you people come from?

"I myself woundlt pay for XP or any other M$ OS for that fact...." "...The only MS OS id buy is 2K Pro..."

Try not to contradict yourself too many times, it gives people the impression you have no idea what you want, what you'd do, or what you are talking about.

"And the other reason I wont buy MS OS's us cause their too buggy"

So you won't BUY their OS because you think it's too buggy, but you have no problems RUNNING their buggy OS as long as you didn't pay for it??

"And MS needs to watch out for their beta testers and s***, I got my copy of XP 2 or 3 months"

In that case you got a beta of XP, the initial warez version only came out 1.5 months (or so) before it was released in the stores. Note that I don't think MS 'worries' about their betas being leaked. Word of mouth is nothing but free advertising for them. Plus it's very hard to stop all leaks from occuring - it's been occuring for a long time.

"The company I run everything it ram on Unix, stable as hell and had 7 months uptime, Ive never seen a Win OS hit 7 months."

Your company runs actual "UNIX" does it? Or does it run Sun OS? AIX? *BSD? As for the uptimes, I have a few things to say:

a) Are you comparing the uptimes of a server to a desktop? In which case I'd love to hear your case for relevance.
b) Why would you want your desktop to be up for more than 7 months straight?
c) NT4 machines have run easily for over 7 months as long as they are set up and left alone. I doubt Win2000 would have any problems achieving the same uptimes.

"Thats just my reaons why I wont buy MS OS's"

That's really nice. Thanks for sharing. 2 problems though:
a) The topic was the keygen for WPA, not 'post your contradicting feelings on wether or not you'd buy a MS OS',
b) You mentioned that you would buy win2k.

Did anyone know that there is no activation on Corprate vers of XP anyway. This was MS solution for all the IT people who where screaming they would never upgrade if they had to sit and activate 500 pc's. Who needs a key gen for the crippled home ver when you can use the Pro with corp key?

Not wanting to invoke the flaming of the person posting above I'll try to be civil. I work for a medium sized government which has a varied mix of "nix's" and MS OS's. In the years I've been with the agency we've not had a single "nix" server failure (a couple of hardware failures but no software failures). We run mainly AIX but there are some Solaris and a few Linux boxes. None give us much trouble.

The Microsoft boxes consume 2 FTE positions keeping the damnedable things running. I'm speaking only of servers, not work stations as we only have a few linux workstations therefore not a fair comparison.

We have three AIX boxes that haven;t been booted in 7 years. There's no way in my lifetime I'm going to see that reliability out of Microsft products.

We now return you to the regularly scheduled topic........

If you speak English you DON'T have to speak any other language.

WOW, that's a pretty sad way to view things.

Of course you only have to know English...if you just read 'People' magazine, watch stupid Hollywood movies and think that going to Las Vegas is a cultural event.

Damn it all. Just learn to use spelling and grammar check. And admit it. Microsoft makes good software. So they're a monopoly. I'm not losing any sleep over it. As long as the sun is still yellow in the morning and I get my paycheck every friday for keeping those servers online, it's all good. They put out a quality product. They are always under so much scrutiny because the idiots of the world always try to destroy the big show of the game. I don't beleive in WPA, but I forked over the cash for XP, and I'm happy with it. After a few tweaks here and there it's great. Linux, BSD, Unix, AIX, Solaris, Mac, and who knows what are all great products too but they aren't hitting the large market of home users. Microsoft is and they're getting the public appeal. I'd like to see an adult that has never used a computer before try to use Linux, and then try a computer running Windows. Where do you think he will stay? All of you linux kiddies don't even bother, you know he would go windows. Who cares if they're a monopoly btw? Are any of you Steve Jobs, or Linus Torvalds? Bill Gates isn't going head to head in the OS market with you so drop it already. It's over and done with.

READ!!:

What do you call someone who speaks three languages?...trilingual

What do you call someone who speaks two languages?...bilingual

What do you call someone who speaks one language?... American.

It's so true. Americans feel like they're superior compared to the rest of the world. Watch your backs, cause one day you're going to be looking up at the rest of the world trying to decide where you went wrong.

LOL! Windows XP Corporate is actually the version of Windows XP released by a warez group named Devils0wn. They replaced some files called "corp files" to by pass the Activation. There is no real 'Corp' version.

Ok, I realise that we're all free to have an opinion...can can people please limit that freedom to things they actually HAVE A CLUE ABOUT.

There is a real 'corporate' version, the difference is the product-id and the key that's used to register. The key basically says 'don't bother with activation'. This is the version that any big business will get (as Godeater mentioned) as they are not about to activate each pc one-by-one.

The Devils0wn version is simply a leaked ms internal corp iso with a 'corporate' key.

The comment regarding the "Devilsown" Corp edition......Just info for the uninformed comment made.....There is such a thing as a Corporate Volume License Edition, which is what the Devilsown release is. Specifically, one leaked from Compaq....Checks out as legitimate with MS's own CRC utility. As is the case in the "warez" scene, there are several repackaged releases going around, many of which are hacked releases, and a couple of which that claim to be the Devilsown release. A few XP releases going around are rife with trojans as well. Be that as it may......

Microsoft is none too happy about this one, but many in the IT field are none too happy regarding WPA. Anecdotally, some people I know are buying legitimate copies, shelving them, and using the Corp release, because they are afraid of WPA issues.

I myself have seen WPA kick in in unusual circumstances, both during the beta test, and after RTM, despite MS's own "weakening" of WPA before RTM.

In my estimation, WPA was/is a bad idea. Not because MS doesnt have a right to protect it's IT. But because it decreases the perception of MS in many peoples eyes, and ultimately does nothing to protect MS. WPA is an annoyance, and unfortunately for MS, a waste of time.....

That's not a good argument, a user that has never used a computer before likely won't make the decision on their own. If they were forced to choose, they would learn either one just as quickly.

Ya maybe, but that doesn't justify juging people on their english synthax !!! This guy was making the effort to speak a language that is not his own... Something that most english speakers doesn't do... So please respect that !!!

In most of the OS debates, I mainly see "Linux vs MS", with very few MAC votes. The way I see it, we have 3 OSes for the desktop- *Nix, MS OS, and Mac OS. Just a big, 3-ring circus, with everyone wanting their personal favorite to win "the war". Funny thing is, there are many sub-sets to that war, especially in the *Nix ring. One sure fire way to get a Linux crowd going, is ask "which distro of *Nix is the best, and why?". Funny to watch the splintering there, hehe...

Random ramblings from:
James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

What do you call people who aren't Americans? Jealous! :P

You would certainly love it if we fell, but not sign of that coming anytime in my lifetime

Which ones best? ALL OF 'EM!

you got a point there :P

i think america are begining to understand that other people have more power than they do now though! Not starting no wars here but you still aint found Osama bin Laden but he managed to take over several planes and *supposedly* spread Anthrax in the "most secure country in the world". Just remember not to kick the people on the way to the top as you will need them on the way down, lucky you aint been a **** to Britian (yet)

Lets see, you are 16 right? That leaves say 60-70 years for America to be overthrown. To say that it isn't going to happen is just plain dumb, the way 'ole george is throwing his weight around I wouldn't be surprised if it happened within the next 2 years.

I have seen NT and 2000 boxes up for more than 7 Months and going strong. Depends on the Engineer who built the box. If he or she knows what he or she is doing should be no problem for the box to be up sevens months or more. If he or she is not that good the box will be buggy forever. Its all about installing services packs and rebooting whaen you are supposed to during the installation proccess.

If you know of any boxes that have been up for 6 months, the administrator is not doing his job. (Most MS patches require a reboot)

So which country in America are you from nmrastudent? Peru, Canada, Agentina, or are you one of the unlucky ones froms the USA who clearly by your statments hasn't a clue what an American really is. Can we call you a UASER (Luaser)?

Ripe comments from a country who's president didn't own a passport, has only left the USA once for a short trip to Mexico (o drink Tequila?) before becoming president. Less than 10% of USAers have passports - you need to get out more?

When I was in Kenya recently (on of the most corrupt countries) they were sugesting they send their President Moi over to the USA to help sort out their presidential elections. Oh how we laughed

I've wasted almost 3.5 Gigs of bandwidth in the last 3 days downloading and installing both Red Hat 7.2 and Mandrake 8.1 not to mention the wasted resources from burning the CD's AND the CD's themselves!!!!!!!!! Red Hat absolutely refused to boot after installing the latest Detonators from nVidia and Mandrake wouldn't even get to the desktop after installing. Red Hat kept pushing my screen off center after repeated adjusting and rebooting to see if my settings stayed......they didn't. Mandrake installed like a charm and I thought all was well until after the first, second, third and fourth attempts to get to the desktop were nothing but thousands of 0101010101's flying by endlessly with no GUI in sight. Mind you now, my machine is a DUAL 1 Ghz. P3 with 512 Megs of Ram and all the fixens that go with a KICK a** system. If any of you Linux masochists think that this kind of experience is going to be even remotely appealing to a Windows user, EVEN if they get crashes and blue screens DAILY, then you are simply out of your minds. At least with Windows XP, ALL of your hardware is AUTOMATICALLY and FLAWLESSLY installed before first boot AND it works as well. I'll put up with a blue screen EVERY hour on the hour ALL day long before I put the virus called "Linux" on ANY of my hard disks EVER again!!!!!

Awww, did a simple little video driver get the best of you? :-P

That's what you get for taking an OS designed for a CLI and putting a GUI on it, the results are neither pretty nor practical.

Windows was built for a GUI and it does it the best.

When it comes to servers and CLI stuffs, FreeBSD does that best :)

LOL, that's funny!

It's not like Osama PERSONALLY came to America to crash all four planes himself, then went door-to-door delivering Anthrax laced letters. He was hiding God knows where while his henchmen did this, thousands of miles away. Your statement is like saying "German soldiers killed a lot of people in Africa, why didn't they capture him the next day?". The US government didin't know where bin Laden was before the attack, why should they have sudddenly realized it afterward? If you're going to insult America, at least pick a valid argument (there's certainly enough to go around).

"MrAStudent" (bet that "A" isn't in human relations, judging by your comments on language!).
I have learned Spanish, French (haven't used either in a while though) and ASL (American Sign Language). While in Texas, Spanish helped alot. Up here in Ohio, ASL helps, because being in business, I can converse with my hearing impaired customers. Gods and Goddessess help any business you start/hire into with that attitude.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

If it's not on the net, then you really don't need to apply patches unless they directly effect problems you are having with your system.

That's a crock, all it takes is one machine that's connected to the net to give it to all of your intranet machines. Trust me, I've seen it happen firsthand.

Learn what a country is, your argument makes no sense.

This isn't Linux we're talking about, you can't get "root" on a Windows machine and use it to do stuff to other computers on its network.

Windows attacks consist of DOS attacks and other than that its s*** that people using the computer install

You obviously don't have any idea what you are talking about.

Go here: http://vil.mcafee.com/alphar.asp?

Search for the keyword: backdoor

Discover how wrong you are.

Learn to make a decent comment, it doesn't make any sense.

Maybe I've missed it...but relevance? what's your point?

i don't see why people say they'll "never buy xp". Probably everyone posting here is using windows - no? If not your probably a slashdot reject that spends weekends writing code for your linux box.

I installed linux 3 days ago to try it. The setup wasn't too bad, however once in linux it was awful. I couldn't get the modem to work, no sound. And the browser - kde - man what a piece of crapware. Took me 30 mins to figure out how to browse drive letters. Now tell me again why linux is so superior to windows? SUre if i was running a web server linux would get a good look, but for everyday use linux gets a big F.

One thing i noticed though in my linux experience, is that linux is just as advanced as windows 3.1. Seriously, go to computing.net and go to the win3.1 forums. You'll see questions like "how do i use a winmodem", "how do i network", things like that. These are the exact same issues on linux. So i have to ask again why is linux so great? Last i looked only .04% people use it.

-gosh

lol, you could at least have put some truth in that flame. What kinda crap is this? (Yeah, I'm gonna reply to the troll.)

" i don't see why people say they'll "never buy xp". Probably everyone posting here is using windows - no? If not your probably a slashdot reject that spends weekends writing code for your linux box."

Funny, I rarely read slashdot. Thanks for that label though, it makes it all that much easier to make fun of you.

"I installed linux 3 days ago to try it. The setup wasn't too bad, however once in linux it was awful. I couldn't get the modem to work, no sound. And the browser - kde - man what a piece of crapware."

Your modem didn't work? Did you install a driver? (no) Sound too? Did you run the sound wizard? (no) KDE crapware? ok, but well Windows must be crapware too because last I checked KDE offered more functionality. (Uhh, yeah it does.)

" Took me 30 mins to figure out how to browse drive letters."

WOW, YOU FIGURED OUT HOW TO BROWSE DRIVE LETTERS!! OMG! I didn't know Linux had drive letters! (Drive letters are a major limitation of the Windows O/S. The only reason you have them now is to maintain compatability with your apps.)

"Now tell me again why linux is so superior to windows? SUre if i was running a web server linux would get a good look, but for everyday use linux gets a big F."

How many platforms does Windows run on? How many GUI choices are there for Windows? (Uhh litestep is crap guys, it's as bad as twm) How many viruses are out there in the wild for Linux systems? (That's a big ZERO!) How many components are buried in your O/S that you can't remove? (That's a big zero again!) How much memory does your O/S use? (I'm using about 32MB now and I have two browser windows, and GnomeICU running) Uhh when's the last time you rebooted? (43 days ago here, 96 on my other computer.) I'd go on, but I'm guessing it's pointless.

"One thing i noticed though in my linux experience, is that linux is just as advanced as windows 3.1. Seriously, go to computing.net and go to the win3.1 forums."

OMG lol! Did you know that there are several emulators available that will let you run Win95/98 at Native speeds, and NT/2000. There's also a Dos Emulator for those that like the retro stuff. I've even booted Win31 in it. Try doing that in Win31.

" You'll see questions like "how do i use a winmodem", "how do i network", things like that. These are the exact same issues on linux."

You don't see these questions in Win9x/NT/XP groups? You must not get out much.

"So i have to ask again why is linux so great?"

Well, I guess I can add the total desktop solution for as many workstations as you'd like to install it on for the wonderfully low price of $0.00!

" Last i looked only .04% people use it."

Only in your mind.

Troll.

Wow, looks like you never read them since they *ALL* say "The user is usually fooled into running a program ...."

That != remote exploit by any meaning of the phrase.

You ever heard of nimda? How about this latest concept that allows an attacker to execute code just by attaching the binary to the subject line? Come on kid, you can't be that dumb. If you can execute code, you can plant a root kit. What do you think code red did?

"because last I checked KDE offered more functionality."
More functionality or more configurability?

"Drive letters are a major limitation of the Windows O/S"
Why's that? Sure it's *a* limitation, I just never figured it to be a *major* one. Do you have more than 24 drives on your machine (either physically or mapped)?

"How many platforms does Windows run on?"
The one and only platform I need it to run on, my pc at work and at home =)

"How many GUI choices are there for Windows?"
Realistically just 1. That's both good and bad. Bad from a end-user configurability point of view - but software such as that offered by StarDock helps in this department. Good from a useability/development point of view - i.e. all the 'windows' will look the same on every machine, the 'help' menu will always be in the same place on every window, etc etc. Note: that isn't always the case.

"How many viruses are out there in the wild for Linux systems?"
How does this make Linux superior? How many viruses are there for some guy's hobby-OS? none...it doesn't mean it's superior.

"How many components are buried in your O/S that you can't remove?"
Once again, how does that make it superior? More configurable definetely!

"How much memory does your O/S use?"
Depends what I'm running =)

"Uhh when's the last time you rebooted? (43 days ago here, 96 on my other computer.)"
Home: Last night when I finished up.
Work: 3 Weeks ago when we had to update MDAC.

"Did you know that there are several emulators available that will let you run Win95/98 at Native speeds, and NT/2000."
Which emulator will let you run any of those OS' at native speed? And what sort of hardware do you need to even get close to native speed? The fastest that I've heard of (obviously there might be much better alternatives) is VMware and that has always needed very good hardware.

"Well, I guess I can add the total desktop solution for as many workstations as you'd like to install it on for the wonderfully low price of $0.00!"
Only if your time is of no value =)

But you're right, he is a troll who knows little about Linux.

Even if you aren't, I am embarrassed for you.

"because last I checked KDE offered more functionality."
"More functionality or more configurability?

I believe it is both more functional, and more configurable. (Feel free to name something Windows XP has that KDE doesn't (GUI wise)) :-)

"Drive letters are a major limitation of the Windows O/S"
"Why's that? Sure it's *a* limitation, I just never figured it to be a *major* one. Do you have more than 24 drives on your machine (either physically or mapped)?"

I read an article a few years back that discussed a Microsoft memo concerning how broken the FAT model was, and how it was limited to 24 drives. Yes, I have 72 ldevs attached via fiber to each of my HP 4000Ns. ;-)

"How many platforms does Windows run on?"
"The one and only platform I need it to run on, my pc at work and at home =)"

I'll give you that. What if you needed it to run on something else though, like a watch? (It's a joke) :-P

"How many GUI choices are there for Windows?"
"Realistically just 1. That's both good and bad. Bad from a end-user configurability point of view - but software such as that offered by StarDock helps in this department. Good from a useability/development point of view - i.e. all the 'windows' will look the same on every machine, the 'help' menu will always be in the same place on every window, etc etc. Note: that isn't always the case."

GUI apps that are written toward KDE all look the same, so do those written toward GTK, or MOTIF, or whatever your poison. KDE, GNOME, MOTIF, *STEP, can all look identical to each other too. :-)

"How many viruses are out there in the wild for Linux systems?"
"How does this make Linux superior? How many viruses are there for some guy's hobby-OS? none...it doesn't mean it's superior."

Linux is far from some guy's hobby-OS though. I LOVE the fact that I don't have to worry about viruses. It makes a HUGE impact on my net habits. ;-)

"How many components are buried in your O/S that you can't remove?"
"Once again, how does that make it superior? More configurable definetely!"

Just the ability to do so makes it superior IMHO.

"How much memory does your O/S use?"
"Depends what I'm running =)"

haha

"Uhh when's the last time you rebooted? (43 days ago here, 96 on my other computer.)"
"Home: Last night when I finished up.
Work: 3 Weeks ago when we had to update MDAC."

My last reboots were kernel updates, my next reboots will probably be kernel updates. (Unless I manage to break SVGAlib ;-)

"Did you know that there are several emulators available that will let you run Win95/98 at Native speeds, and NT/2000."
"Which emulator will let you run any of those OS' at native speed? And what sort of hardware do you need to even get close to native speed? The fastest that I've heard of (obviously there might be much better alternatives) is VMware and that has always needed very good hardware."

Win4Lin - http://www.netraverse.com (It runs 9x very close to native speed.)

"Well, I guess I can add the total desktop solution for as many workstations as you'd like to install it on for the wonderfully low price of $0.00!"
"Only if your time is of no value =)"

Well, my time at $100 an hour to do an install, plus $0.00 for the O/S is still $200 less than the "other companies o/s" (haha) Multiply that $200x 40k desktops, it's HUGE. ;-)

"But you're right, he is a troll who knows little about Linux"

Absolutely. :-)

You must be pretty talented. I started using Linux with Slackware (somewhere around 3.0), also have used RedHat since v 4, Caldera, and Debian. The only time I ever had a problem installing or using any of these distributions was when my hard drive turned out to be on the brink of failure and was crashing the installer. I actually got read failure messages from it which clued me in. Something Windows never alerts you to. Every install went just fine (it helps to make sure you verify all of your hardware beforehand). Which is more than I can say for Windows. I've had Windows installers crash in the middle of installations several times. And as recently as XP when I helped someone install that on their machine. That one crashed 3 times in the middle of it. As far as your video drivers - that's what you get when you're using drivers that are half-ass supported by the manufacturer, yet they refuse to hand over any specs so that the XFree86 developers can create better drivers. nVidia drivers are notorious for making people rip out hair. A big reason why I quit buying them (although others praise their work *shrug*). Since you're running multiple processors, I'm sure you verified that they were successfully detected and set up correctly and that you're running a multi-processor kernel? Sometimes you have to do that on your own because the installer wants to try to get you up and running and some machines need to be tweaked for multi-processor usage. Others work the first time. YMMV (Btw, Windows doesn't always work on multi-processors the first go around either). I'm far from a Linux masochist and I really could give two s***s if any Windows users find Linux appealing on the desktop. :) I find it appealing. If you're happy babysitting your operating system and beating your head on the keyboard when it falls down and cries, more power to you. I would be careful how you toss around "AUTOMATICALLY" and "FLAWLESSLY" with XP because my experiences with it have been anything but.

There is room for lots of improvements on Linux. However, an open and free environment is always going to attract difficulties like these. Just because it is open and free. They can be minimized, and mind you, Linux has gone a long way in doing this and keeps going. Which is the platform where users experience absolutely the least amount of difficulties? MacOS, of course! Why? Because it is the least open and most limited OS of them all. You could look at it like this; There is no room for difficulties. But when they indeed pop up, no one has a clue what to do. Windows is easier to fix, and Linux is easiest.
Personally I use both Linux and Windows. Linux is better in most ways, but Windows is useful to run certain applications and most games. I am using RedHat right now, and I don't like it. Anyone has another Linux distribution to recommend? I don't have broadband (so Debian doesn't stand out)

All I can say is, keep trying! This is part of your learning experience. There are many sites which provide technical support/forums where you can ask what the hell is going on with your installation. Because, believe me, it's practically impossible for you to experience a problem which hasn't been experienced by someone else before.

Hey, QNX has fewer viruses than Linux! That makes it BETTER, doesn't it? LOL!!!

I think *most* virus issues are end-user related. If people would just pay attention to what they are doing, they wouldn't have to worry about a virus near as much. But, that is just my personal opinion on that subject :-)

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

"Anyone has another Linux distribution to recommend?"

Well, go here http://www.lycoris.com and get the first CD. It is based on Redmond Linux, and it works better for me that RedHat 7.1. Heck, it installs easy with my USB 2.0 PCI card installed, while REdHat 7.1 will NOT install unless I remove the card.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Amen brother! What?? Pay for an OS?? My God, that is SO unfamiliar to the linux crowd. Look at Loki - extinct. Perfect example illustrating the absolute ignorance of the linux crowd. They don't understand that companies that create things need cash to operate. How do they get cash? Investors, you say. Yes, but investors want to see a return on their investment. So they have to sell their product. LINUX PEOPLE WON'T PAY FOR THEIR SOFTWARE.

Every company investing time, money and effort into developing software for linux will, and has, failed. Red Hat made a few dollars last year because of server stuff. At least IT people understand they have to buy stuff sometimes.

Linux bigots will never understand that communism has failed and you get what you pay for.

The corporate version even has it's own windows update site where you can download and save the files...so it's legit.

"LINUX PEOPLE WON'T PAY FOR THEIR SOFTWARE. "

Oh? Hmm, better cancel that order I placed with codeweavers then.

"Every company investing time, money and effort into developing software for linux will, and has, failed. Red Hat made a few dollars last year because of server stuff. At least IT people understand they have to buy stuff sometimes. "

Funny, my home computers aren't part of IT.

"Linux bigots will never understand that communism has failed and you get what you pay for."

Who cares about communism? I get a hell of a lot more for my money than you do. Feel free to try to prove me wrong. What does your $300.00 buy you? I have all those features too, and thousands more.

Yes, it does make it better. ;-) Sure, *MOST* viruses are end user related, but the deadliest ones are the ones that aren't. ;-)

Yes Microsoft release differet versions of Windows pretty much every 1 or 2 years and yes it is a pain for companies but it is called "computer evolution", the OS gets better with each release (even with windows me!!), they become more user friendly, easier to use, more powerful, use less power and are stronger. However what about Linux? there is a different version released every time i go to mandrake.com or rednat.com 8.1 then 3 months laters 8.2!!

As for money, linux users pay for things, it doesnt look like it because Linux (normally) installs with loads of free software also. The os isnt always free (you can buy it if you dont want to download it)

not much has changed with Windows over the years, a windows 95 user can use windows 2000 perfectly (for normal use not admin etc)

And as for Windows 98SE being the most stable OS haha yeah whatever! Windows 2000 is easily the most stable, and my Windows 2000 Server has been up for 332 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes and 34 seconds... now!

Just a little over 7 months ;)

All I can say is:

1. If it takes 2 FTE's to keep your Windows Servers up (and they're more recent than NT 3.51) then you need to replace them with 2 FTE's that are competent.

2. If you have AIX machines that have not been rebooted in 7 years, then I have a list of 14 critical root level exploits that you have not fixed (each of which requires kernel level changes and a reboot to fix it)

So perhaps you'd like to share WHICH government these servers are being run at so that we can let the taxpayers/citizens/etc. know about the totally irresponsible administration that is taking place?

Maybe the correct phrase should have been: "Slashdot readers will never pay for software."

I once read a great article in wired on why Linux wont win the desktop war. It was a very thurough article posing questions like "what if linux hadnt spent all that time developing gui desktoping utilities for an already dominated market and instead focused on its clearly emerging market on server platforms." Major issues with most unix opperating systems as for as interopperability. one of the points was that linux, being so portable solves or is able to solve with less development most of these compatible issues. Linux was born of server blood. To think it could compete in a market which it has very little business in is in effect stealing away attention from the market it has a strong chance of owning, and also sells linux in a bad light. Linux is a great OS for serving my web documents. Thats in my oppinion its place in the world. When you take it out of its element and stick it into the desktop arena where people dont read pop up warnings and have PHD's in computer science you're no longer dealing with the same animal. I would support the development of the GUI utilities if i thought in anyway there would be a reason for it to make it easier to manage my server. Truth is all the applications other than YaST2 require some sort of low level consol activity to install. In my opinion, why bother. kill the GUI arguements. if you want to compare GUI's b**** about why OSX wasnt released for PC based hardware. It's a fine alternative to MS WIN XP.

i dont read slash dot, i wouldnt know. but how would you know unless you're a slash dot reader? seems kind of like the pot calling the kettle black to me. and if you dont read slash dot then you're stereotyping. either way, doesnt make anysense

the cost lies not in the software fewt, but in the support it requires to have it set up. if i had to pay a zealot to install my linux box it would take him or her maybe 2 or 3 hours or so to get it setup. depending on the skillz in question we'd be talking 40 bucks an hour as an industry base mark. so you're talking about the time and the money to install being somewhere between 80 to 200 dollars to get yourself a working, understandable, and correctly configured linux machine. the standard user could do the same thing with windows. just wanted to make a point that time is money and not everyone has the time to figure out which packages to install on linux being that there are about a trillion of them per cd to install with dependancies etc.

LOL Dual PIII 1GHz with only 512MB's of RAM. A kick-ass system? Yeah, whatever you say.

To call someone an African, European, Asian, Australiasian does not define which country they come from.

America is a continent (technically two, North and South).

USA is the country (incontinent?)

Don't you love people who criticize comments without understanding them. It makes my point even stronger (unless you are not from the USA)

...and it's not even their own language

They can't even speak or spell it right either

Can we get back to the subject instead of slagging off the USA (and their insane retorts), however much they deserve it.

I appologise for my typing error above.

UASER should read USAer, or USAn or USAish as in Newzealander, German or English.

However my simple point still stands: American is the same as saying African. Which then begs the question which country are you from? Then again most people from the USA think Africa is a country (or even that the UK is too).

Err.. Not a big deal, but a small correction. A 'regular' activation key will not work on a true corp XP Media. The activation software does not exist on the media and it could not 'activate' itself if it tried.

The media of the 'Corporate Edition' is different from the 'Retail Edition' insomuch as the WPA software has been removed, limiting it's keys.

Under your posts definition of the corp release, you'd be able to take a retail edition and make it corp by inputing a corp key. Won't work, guaranteed. Try it.

The standard user could *NOT* do the same thing with Windows. You haven't dealt with "standard" users, have you. ;-)

Nulledge, I agree about the support part (readhat charges a few hundred $$ just for 5 incidents!), but I disagree with "2-3 hours for a linux install". I have done various Linux installs, and they haven't been much longer than a complete Windows format, install, and driver setup.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Depends on how you read my post. =)
You cannot take a retail Pro version of XP and use a 'Corporate' key on it due to the 'product-id' being different as I mentioned.

I can't remember off the top of my head but there was a set of corp files to convert a 'Home' edition into a 'Corp Pro' edition and a set of files to convert the 'Pro' edition into a 'Corp' edition. The first set had 11 files and the other had 7 or so. Some of these files were just txt files.

Anyways, without getting completely technical about it, the 'real' difference between 'Pro' and 'Corp' is the key that's used. The key that CAN be used depends on the product-id (which can be manually modified).

"America is a continent (technically two, North and South)."

There's nothing technical about it, there are 7 continents and America is NOT one of them. They are (in no order of preference): Europe, Asia, Australia, Antarctica, North America, South America, Africa.

Sorry, but the WPA code is still present on the MVL (corporate) media. It is even used in certain circumstances.

Two sets of media...two keys (MVL and Retail)

The MVL media can use the Retail key or the MVL key.
The Retail media can ONLY use the Retail key.

AYE! MATEY!!! As long as pirates sail the seven seas of software, I'll never pay one red cent for any O/S or software!!! Read the ridiculous Microshot EULA and you'll agree, as far as pirates go...Bill Gates is the king of them all!

AYE!!! Steal'em all dummy!

I know this, techically or not.

Still doesn't detract that a Canadain is also an America, and Argentiinian is an American, a Brazillian is an American and so on.

It was a joke. Fewt is not to fond of Slashdot readers (not that I blame him). Lighten up :)

7 months uptime? My office at has a windows 95 OSR 2.5 box that hasn't been updated since it was first set up on our network for database backups.. a little over 4 years ago.

slashdot? grrrr.

learn to understand a comment, or are you from the USA too?

Nate,

I am very sad and disappointed that you put an article on something ILLEGAL! This is not the BetaNews I know!

-- Michael

Michael, I'd like to welcome you into the real world where not everything in fun and games. BetaNews is reporting on a story that is important to a lot of people for different reasons. A key generator being created for the WPA is a big deal, after all Microsoft banked on this day never occuring, or at least not so quickly.

Should all stories that include an element that is illegal not be posted so that you don't get offended? Don't read a newspaper in that case, one of those has plenty of stories on 'something ILLEGAL'.

Oh really? Then maybe they shouldn't post any stories on any MS product, since they are an illegal monopoly, bahahaha! :P

ILLEGAL ????? C'mon, this is AMERICA ...

lol, I love that one..

uhh... no, MS never 'banked' on this sort of thing not being created. Heck, they even said that they knew that it would be created.

Second, this app is not all that it's cracked up to be, as I've heard, it rarely produces keys that actually work.

Cracks in themselves are NOT illegal. You disappoint too easily. Get a life.

I didn't mean to make it sound like a key generator was never going to be created, I just had my doubts about it, seeing as the 25-digit codes had been in use for a fairly long time before any form of a key generator was released. In fact it seems to coincide with the release of the white paper of wpa that came out a while ago.

As for it not being all it's cracked up to be....I've got 25 working 'corporate' keys that I got in 9 hours that say different.

Actually it is you who needs to keep up to date.

New laws do get passed. They do get enforced.

And you are wrong. The crack itself is illegal.

Depends on what country you're in.

Hi
I think its great that a keygen for windows XP has showed up. Microsoft are begging for it, and I would never dream to pay for their software if I can get it for free. So to all the poor people out there who can't pay for Microsofts way too expensive stuff I can only say one thing, rip Microsoft down to the bone they deserve it if anyone do!!!
Uncleburt Von Himpfendinxx

"So to all the poor people out there who can't pay for Microsofts way too expensive stuff I can only say one thing, rip Microsoft down to the bone they deserve it if anyone do!!!"

If you can't/won't pay for something.....steal it.
Do you apply that thought system to everything or just software? And if it is everything, is this something you're going to be teaching your kids too?

Unfortunately that is the mindset to a lot of people these days when it comes to software. People don't understand that human beings just like them work 9 to 5 to create this software to feed their families. For some reason the computer industry has given way to the idea that large corporations as an entity create software and stealing from them hurts nobody.

....................YOU ARE ONE SICK, TWISTED INDIVIDUAL Von Himpfendinckz. Typical Linux Commie mindset thinking everything should be free. Maybe you should resort to STEALING your hardware next?! We will most likely see your picture in the Post Office some day...........

Hey man, enough with the Linux commie crap.

But it's OK to call Microsoft "The Great Satan" or call Bill Gates "The Anti-Christ"?

Just wondering............

The real question is - where on earth did you come up with that statement? I don't remember seeing a single mention of Linux in the comment that that idiot made. Perhaps I didn't read between the lines as you did?

You're right, it is more socialist than communist, choose your poison

That's funny, I made lots of money last year. Damn kids, you think you know everything. :-P

Did I say that it was?

yeah, we all know "linux freaks" is a better description :o)

Yep im sure you did fewt. TCO sure adds up for linux just like all unix varients. Windows TCO is slowly coming down with the slow improvements to reliability and security, but the only way for linux TCO to come down is for people like you to have a major cut in money. At some point the figures will be even for windows and linux... that'll be an interesting day!

Windows TCO is going down? Pass that fatty!

It's better than communist, or nazi. :-(

Well, if I had a matter replicator like on Star Trek, I'd probably be running 500 copies of my 40GB HD. Illegal? Maybe,but at least hardware doesn't the same anal-retentive restrictions of MS Software. They don't care how many machines use my harddrive over a network, which is essentially the same thing as installing an OS across a home network.

Also, what if I allowed people to use Remote Desktop to my box from across the globe? Isn't that basically the exact same thing as warezing? MS simply built in the perfect install once, run anywhere warez. They should cry fowl when it's installed twice by the same user.

*shouldn't*

Yeah, especially since .NET is going to be completely do-it-yourself. Hell, .NET is so easy to understand that implementation is going to be easy enough for anyone to do and manager. Err..wait...

If Windows TCO was going down, Microsoft wouldn't be doing their job right. Sure maybe some things are easier these days (keeping securtiy patches up to date, configuring 2000 server as oppossed to NT server), but new features and changes in complexity as technology improves will always require additional training and resources.

Remotely accessing your machine is not even close to violating license agreements and "warezing" software. It doesn't matter how many people access your copy of Windows, because it is still running on one single machine. You paid for the license to run Windows on that one computer, you didn't pay for only one user to access it.

And you kind of defeat your own argument. Most software is allowed to be accessed remotely as long is it is only installed in a single machine - exactly how you can access your hard drive remotely but cannot physically place it in multiple computers at the same time. The only real difference is that the prevention is physical with hardware, not legal.

VS calling MS and MS OSes "Communist", and "Communist OS", right?

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

I actually had someone try convincing me *ALL* companies create accounts for theft, so the software/hardware/food/etc is "already paid for". Stupid kid is barely out of high school, and THAT is how he thinks (along with many other nitwits around).

James Wheat
http://belprecomputewizard.com

Hey brother commie bas****
first of all i'm not using Linux, and second I'm not a commie bas**** like yourself and I'm glad that I'm not a guy who thinks everything should be free (only everything that Microsoft comes up with) I certainly buy everything else that I use on my comp. But can you tell me where you got that commie crap from ???? You don't sound like you got too much in your head to move around with. And I can tell you that you will never see my picture in some post office, and if you will, then you have to travel a damn long way to see it jerk!!!!
Uncleburt Von Himpfendinxx

Von Himpfendinckz

I have no idea why you believe *only Microsoft* deserves to be treated the way you say. WPA was set to try and curb the "casual pirate", such as a group of friends pooling money to buy one copy of XP (while spending hundreds more on beer, dining out, "toys", etc). It is also for (in my opinion) those "Computer Stores" that build white boxes like I do, and have been known to install the same copy of Windows OS with the same numbers on computers they sell. I for one am glad the WPA has slowed that part down in my area, as it is hard to compete against stores that illegally load the OS on multiple systems for sell like that, when I do things legally and BUY each full copy for each system sold.
So what if you think MS products are "way over priced"? I think it is rediculous the way many companies price things. Heck- memory took a $26 jump first of January! That means I can't make as much, right? Especially since I can't buy in million-unit quantitiy like the big stores do.
So, cut back on the venom, look at things from both a business AND consumer view. Learn more about what it cost to develop, THEN you can be more informed about "way over priced".

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

"Heck- memory took a $26 jump first of January!"

grumble grumble grumble grumble

Absolutely.

LOL no.

Well on my P3-500 I only managed to get 8 valid corp keys in 3.5hours last night. Although I'm very impressed with what's been done, I hope they can optimise the keygen a bit more since it does take quite a while to test each key. Also making it multi-threaded would help greatly!

But the the guys who did this, well done, I had my doubts that a keygen would ever come out.

xVar,

I apologize if your feelings/ego got hurt, or if I sounded like some high and mighty user .... I am not, nor have I ever purported to be. If you want to 'read between the lines' and make me out to be some evil bad dude, thats your hangup. But please don't talk about karma when you yourself are running pirated OSes ... its true what they say, it will come back to you, one way or another.

..and yes, running an IIS test server on XP pro is admissable for some, as long as one doesnt open it up through a firewall. .NET server is the way to go for production use in an MS environment.

There is such a thing as a windows power user ... this in my opinion is someone who has an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the OS, and is able to read dump files and debug output and really understand what made windows crash ;) Seriously, there are plenty of MS professionals out there, making decent $$$, I don't think they are any lesser than the uber-geeks playing with 'NIX OSes ...

what's a *nix system, anyway? i just want to know what it is. and why do power users use *nix systems? why are these power users not using windows like the non-power users use? are non-power users not using *nix systems? if so, then according to what you previously wrote, and by contraposition, you are stating that power users alone use *nix and non-power users alone use windows. intriguing.

Sure wormtongue, you didn't have ill-intent when you posted what you did. Listen, I didn't have to interpret anything. You spelled your intentions out in black and white with your words, it's there on record for the whole world to see on this page. What you said couldn't have been interpreted any other way.

As for the idea that I pirate the OSes I use: the only thing that was pirated by me was that copy of XP I tested. As of about two hours ago, my system mo linger contains a trace of it, and the CD is in 30 pices +/- in the garbage downstairs. Why? I don't like XP. I'm back to my legitamate copy of 2K on this (and two other machines at home), and 98 SE on another system here. I'm glad I didn't go out and buy it, coz then I'd've had to go through the hassel of returning it too.

*nix is everything that Microsoft is trying to turn Windows into while maintaining it's ease of use. (Please, no one bother to tell me I'm wrong, I'm sure I can dig up the press release for NT 4.0 heh) I stated there are no Windows Power Users because I feel there really aren't any. I was what I once considered a Windows Power User, until I learned Unix. Once I started really using Unix (Hence Linux) I discovered what power really was. (Awk/Grep/Sed/Vi/Sh etc.) I can do in seconds what would take an advanced excel user a day. To me, that's power use. :-)

(This is my opinion, back off wanna-be flamers)

hi, I'm interested in learning Linux, I'm a guy who is still thinking he's a windows power user, and although I alove most MS product I think WinXP went too far with WPA, and I'm looking at alternative OS's, but I find linux to be way to hard, and I just hate reading the books, I learned what I know of windows by doing and using the OS, ever day, heck I even went on the internet in my sleep, my mom walked in and saw me hehe. anyways, I tried everything from redhat, and mandrake to the easy distro's like lycoris, but the problem is it's still the linux system I'm having problems learning. until the linux geeks/nerds make a distro the walks people thro everything from open /creating a text file to upgrading a kernel, without talking down to the person, Linux will always be something people will be afraid to touch.my first try was with Red Hat 5.2, and I liked it, but I just miss the windows system, I know it like the back of my hand. but I think Linux can be good if I ever learn to work it hehe.

You hit the nail on the head. It's not so much that Linux is all that difficult (at least superficially), it's that you aren't used to it. Anybody can look clumsy using something they are unfamiliar with. If you really could care less about the computing experience so much as checking your e-mail and looking up movie times, then don't use Linux.

All those command line programs on a desktop machine equal no mass useage for ANY operating system. Only on a server are they useful..why don't people understand this?? We in the Windows world have moved on to fully graphical environments with a mouse and icons...linux moves backwards into time with the "useful" command line programs with arcane names and switches, while trying to play catchup with every advance in personal computing to date. Sounds like a paradox that will destroy the time/space continueum!!!

And the fact that you deleted it and broke up the CD makes what you did any less of a crime how?

I have very little patience for people like you who think they they only broke the law "a little" and were "justified" in doing it anyhow.

That's funny, I have some of those very commands embedded in my menus to generate new menu entries based on what cd is in the drive. I use them constantly on my DESKTOP to do REAL WORK things. I'm sorry, but most computer users that were around before Windows was released will tell you that even now they prefer to work in, and are more comfortable in a command prompt. People in a totally GUI environment miss out on things like tweak ability. I'm sorry, but you have never used Linux if you make any claim that is is moving backwards. ;-)

I have very little patients with companies that will not allow you to try a product without purchasing it, then when you discover it does not suit your needs, they force you to keep it anyway. ;-)

There will be a Trial Version of XP.

It is not yet available as MS is still working out the issues of how to make it difficult (not impossible, but difficult at least) to turn the trial version into a fully licensed copy.

Why can't you go to your local department store or computer store and try out Windows XP there? I see people going in and having a 'play' with XP all the time. Sure it's not on YOUR PC, but you still get to try it out.

Just a followup.

The 180 day eval copy of XP Pro does indeed require Product Activation after a 14 day grace period.

It is unclear if the eval will stay at 180 days or be reduced to 120 or even 90.

I'm sorry, there is no such thing as a "Power User" that uses Windows. (Seriously..) Unless you define a "Power User" as someone that opens 50 apps, and leaves them up all day. ;-)

The whole 'Power User' term just seems like the person has some sort of a god-complex.

I can agree with that. :-)

So Chris, are you related in any way to Akira *Fu*buki, coz she's really great. ;-P

On a somewhat more serious note, does the suffix "buki" mean anything? Like Mc or Mac for instance.

a) no
b) not that I'm aware of. The "Kabuki" is a Japanse dance or type of theater or something like that, but that's not where I got it from.

To sorta defend xVariable (shock) - Defining a power user by their use of development tools and IIS is not really fair either. I would consider a lot of the Finance people that I deal with daily "power users" but I they know zilch about programming.

I also would question why you are running IIS on XP? Is that for development purposes? A real power user (sarcasm intended) would have a separate 2000 server development box. Unless, of course, by XP you mean a beta of .Net server?

I was going to say something about that. Surely not using XP Home or Pro to run IIS for anything other than personal use at home. I can't even imagine using *Longhorn* in a busness environment (my understanding is that the newest version isn't even a required upgrade by MS...) Then again, this is all just the ignorant supposition of a no-nothing...

"Power User"? Yeah, okaaaay... You live and die by the sword you've chosen (That's not karma, that's just the nature of the universe. :-) ) Enjoy your existance, such as it (apparently) is.

PS

"ISO"? "IIS", NFO, what are these things? m jus n ignant no nutin, I don't knew nutin boot tham thayr cumpuerts...

Who is the ignoramous here? (and I'm not just referring to compters, just in case you didn't get it.)

I had the "opportunity" rescently to "evaluate" Windows XP on a home system (O.K. f*ck it, I pirated it because I wanted to try it and wasn't willing to shell-out the $400 for the professional version my school's computer store was charging. What the heck happened to the student price?)

It's been about 4 days now and I'm not impressed AT ALL. Microsoft has taken the wonderful NT and ruined it. The main reasons for me switching to XP were faster boot time, skinnablity, and somewhat better overall better performance. While the performance does seem *somewhat* more responsive overall, the boot time is only negligibly better than 2000. This, despite all the possible memory and other subsystem tweaks, using Boot Vis to try to improve things (btw, the machine I ran it on is about a year old and has the latest BIOS which was just rescently released), running defrag, etc... Basically everything possible to improve the situation. As for skinning: I'd been seeing some interesting XP visual styles/themes around rescently, good enough to compel me to have a look. It turns out all those images I saw were merely CONCEPT SHOTS, or people's private setups. The fact is, THERE ARE VER FEW really compelling visual styles available for XP. They're either total ameteur night, or they have a football/sports, car, half-naked woman, alternative music/gothic/vampire theme. Sorry, but I have't been interested in that "sort" of thing since I was a young teen. I'm interested in something a little more sophisticated and mature thanks, not something that looks like it was done by someone with the intellect of a teenager.

The long and the short of it: in a couple of hours (when I get the time) I'll be removing the partition I setup XP on, and will re-merge that slack space with the partition containing my legitamate copy of Windows 2000. XP did *not* give me a good "out of the box experience" at all (and don't bother to say "what box? You pirated it", I'm speaking figuratively.) XP thoroughly failed to impress me, and more often than not frustrated, annoyed and disappointed me. Add to that with the simply OUTRAGEOUS cost of a full copy of professional (and an upgrade is not an option, upgrades always result in a second-rate setup full of complications.) Maybe I would have paid for XP if I'd liked it, but I won't in any case now because of the price. Add to that the punative nature of the windows product activation scheme. Overall, that Linux Mandrake partition I deleted a few months ago is looking more and more viable the more I think about it. It's pretty good now, GNU Linux can only get better (who knows where it'll be in a year?) In fact, as soon as I press "send" here, I think I'm going to go download Mandrake Linux 8.2's latest beta.

Everyone else can crack Windows et al. all they like. Me? I don't think it's worth running, let alone going out of your way to crack it so you can run it.

Just so you know, the upgrade version of XP is identical in every way to the full version. It just requires that you have a copy of an older version on hand when you do a clean install.

Also, the academic price for the Pro upgrade should be around $115. You can get it at needsoftware.com for that price if your school doesn't offer it.

As for the boot time - I have noticed a marked improvement in this area. From BIOS to login screen is almost instant and from login to usable desktop is also very quick.

Dude get a life. Xp is the best thing that I have seen from Microsoft since 2k came out. I think you just need some more time with it, perhapz. Maybe you should focus more on other aspects of Xp other than itz customization and skinns. Lamer......

Badasme

Uhh, define instant. Instant in 9 seconds? Instant in 20 seconds? Instant in 1ms? ;-)

Instand to me is BIOS done - blink - log in is there.

"Dude, get a life", "Lamer", "Xp... the... best thing... since 2k."

Wow, there's some intelligent, informed rebuttal. Insult me, then follow-up with "XP r00lz". XP *is* 2K, with Window Blinds attached. That might be something of an overgeneralization, but not much of one. Eventually someone will come out with a BootVis-style utility for 2K, addressing the only ultimate real advantage XP has over 2K. Otherwise XP has nothing you can't already get via (often free, *high-quality*) third-party software. Exactly what is it XP offers over 2000 (other than the aesthetics), that can't already be done equally well in 2000? Nothing.

Takes 20 seconds on my PII400/256. Takes 15 seconds on my PIII700/256MB. That's not instant. ;-)

Of course the upgrade version is identical. It contains all the same files, all the same features. What you deliberately overlooked, however (unless you really don't know), is that an upgrade install of an OS is almost always riddled with performance problems, not the least of which is generally less instability and a fresh, full install.

Besides which, the time would come when I'd eventually have to format and reinstall the whole machine. I'm not about to reinstall 2K, then overwrite that install with an XP upgrade. What a pain in the ass! (Not to mention it takes at least twice as long. Do two OS installs to install *1* OS? F*ck that!) In the past I've always bought a full version of each new Windows release to avoid all that. Can't do that anymore, now that this version costs almost as much as a descent PC.

yes yes, what I meant was "less *stability*", don't try to be smart. =)

Sir,
What the individual stated earlier about the upgrade not being any different that the full version is this: To install a fresh install of a new O/S doesn't require that you install Win2K first then install XP over the top of it. Apparently, you are unaware that you begin the installation of the O/S with the Upgrade version first and at a certain point in the installation, it will ask you to insert the CD of a qualified full version copy. To break that down more, put your XP upgrade version in and begin installation. When it says to put the qualifying copy in, put your full version of Win2K in the CD ROM. After it verifies that you have a full version copy of that O/S, it will tell you to put the upgrade copy back in the CD-ROM. This is how you avoid having to purchase full versions of the software without the complications of upgrading an already installed O/S.

Sucks for you doesn't it? I will stop watch it tonight on my 866 with 256 RDRAM. I'm not sure that my fingers are that fast though.

Thank you for saving me the time. I am thinking that Mr. xVariable has not spent enough time with XP to make educated statements about it. I think he was just trying to make a circumlocutory attack on Microsoft.

Only on this computer. I reloaded my PII 400 Notebook with Linux, and don't have to reboot it anymore. ( Yes, I know XP is more STABLE than any other Windows O/S, WOOHOO.. :-P )

I didn't know that (contrary to how "mhinck" might like to characterize me, I have no problem admitting when I'm mistaken.) Now the thing is, my copy of W2K is on an OEM format and restore CD. Will my format and restore disc work this way? I can't do a manual install off this disc so I suspect not.

Speaking of Linux. SuSE 7.3 (same machine) takes longer to get to log in than XP. Well I do boot from floppy to avoid messing with MBR but it still takes longer to get to a workable desktop in KDE after logging in.

Wow you're so smart eh? Let's say for the case of argument that your machine somehow magically boots instantly like you say (though I'm pretty sure most people here know that's a load of bs.) Even if it were true, your experience is by far the exception. It is aberrant, relevant merely for its novelty. Has anyone else heard of a boot time that fast? Not me, but like I said elsewhere, I don’t know everything. :-)

I apologize if I categorized you incorrectly. As for the OEM disk, I am not sure. I didn't say this but you could also download a bootleg ISO copy of Windows 2000 and use that as your upgrade verification.

I should also point out the Microsoft is doing an academic tour. Check out http://www.msdnaa.net/vslaunch/. Attend and you get a free copy of Visual Studio .Net and XP Professional.

I don't know if you were talking to me, but if so, so what? I already indicated that XP boots marginally faster for me than 2K (but not enough given everything else.) Mandrake and 2K both take about 50 secs for me to boot from post post to a fully working desktop (KDE or Explorer.) It's not surprising that Linux takes longer to load for you than XP: apparently, according to what you say, a TV takes longer to "boot" than XP does on your magic machine.

I really am playing around with Fewt. He is notorious on this site and has a very good sense of humor about things. I don't know exactly how fast my boot time is (although I will try to remember to time it tonight) but I do know that it is much faster than Windows 2000 on the same machine, faster than Windows 2000 on the two other machines in my apartment, and faster than the Windows 2000 on the 2 more powerful machines I use at work.

I know that there are tons of factors that could make my boot time faster (133 Mhz FSB, ATA100 7200 RPM Hard Drives, RDRAM) when compared to other people but the comparison on my own machine is the one that wins me over.

I do know how to reply to the proper thread. Fewt mentioned Linux. Read my reply to your post (surprisingly below your post and not fewts).

I also want to point out that I apologized above AND pointed out how you can get XP and VS for free by attending a Microsoft event so I obviously am not as mean and horrible as I may seem.

Well then something is wrong with YOUR system, XP boots up in about 20secs max for me (from POST, and that includes my ATA100 BIOS detection).

Win2k took about a minute and half JUST for the OS.

For the themes, go to themexp.org. It's not the visual style that has the women, cars, etc... it's the theme package, if you just use the visual style itself, you won't have that.

xp is okay, there are some fishy programs that automatically run in the background that i dont like but other than that its pretty cool, but i will wait for a service pack before i sware by it.

alex

Ok, I am willing to apologize for my ill-intent too, no harm done I hope. ;-) Particularly given what some a****** just posted up there ^ (hell, it could even be you under another nick. It could be me for all you know lol. Oh well.)

So I tried a few times and got between 10 and 15 seconds. I wasn't using an exact timer (an portable oven timer was all I could find) but considering that is about how long it takes for me to take off my jacket and sit down after hitting the power button it is pretty instant to me. I never remember 2000 being ready to log in by the time I sat down. What I really hope is that the .Net server loads faster than 2000 Server. Weekly patches are only made worse by the slow restart time.

I never use an alias here. You can also tell my posts because I try to use short paragraphs to enhance readability.

:-P

That's a beef I have with the big name Linux distros. (Well, it's really with Gnome and KDE) They take FOREVER to get to a desktop. I use FluxBox ( http://fluxbox.sourceforge.net ) with Ximian apps.

I DIDN'T DO IT, NO BODY SAW ME DO IT, YOU CAN'T PROVE ANYTHING!

(heh)

FYI, if you want to install FluxBox and mess around with it, ICQ me. (3947763) I'd be glad to help.

Bull, It isn't necessarily broken just because it boots 10 seconds slower. :-P

" I know that there are tons of factors that could make my boot time faster (133 *G*hz FSB, ATA10000 720000 RPM Hard Drives, RDRAM) when compared to other people but the comparison on my own machine is the one that wins me over."

That would do it. haha

It's pretty easy to find mine too, just follow the ones that take off quickly to the right --> ;-)

Now this is cool. :-) Any chance they'll be comming up to Canada? Otherwise it's.... "Road trip!"

Yeah that's a "variant" of Black Box isn't it? (should probably consult google to avoid questions like that before posting. =)

Black Box is one of my favorite window managers in Linux. I run geoShell as my shell in Windows and they both offer similar functionality, minimalistic resource useage and aesthetics. Thx for the offer man, will prolly take you up on it once back up in Linux. =)

Yes, it's based on BlackBox source. N/P about that offer, it's open to anyone that has Linux questions. :-)

Heh well my understanding is that ICQ clones in Linux allow i/o via direct connections only (big security threat, esp. in a loosely setup Linux install.) I'll have to properly secure everything before I start adding anyone other than family and close personal friends to my Contact List, but you'll likely here from me eventually. :-)

I can confirm that WinXP upgrade *will* work with OEM "restore" CDs and a "virgin" (fdisk/formatted) drive. (I have installed the WinXP upgrade on a Compaq Presario, which typically only come with OEM "restore" CDs, after doing an fdisk and reformat of the hard drive (as the machine had a 40GB hard drive installed and I have noticed most Microsoft OS's tend to have rather serious issues with attempts to install on partitions larger than 20GB or so) to ensure a clean install. Simply asked for the CD, checked it, and validated that it indeed was a Win98 CD and proceeded with the install from there.)

As a minor aside, I should note that both OEM CD and WinXP upgrade CD were legit copies, and that the machine before WinXP install had some fairly major performance issues due to Win98 regularly fouling itself and thusly going tits up after a few weeks (another reason box was fdisked/formatted was because the system files had completely besh*t themselves thus rendering the machine unbootable from the C drive). These seem to have been largely resolved from the WinXP install, which is actually a pleasant surprise (seeing as I worked in a tech support centre and dealt with so many cases of WinMe going dead that I flat told anyone whom I did computer work for that they would NOT install, or allow to be installed, WinMe on their boxes under pain of a thousand paper cuts :P).

ko :-)

"wasn't willing to shell-out the $400 for the professional version my school's computer store was charging."

WTF?? It is only $300 at Office Depot, and I can sell it for $200 here, if you buy some hardware to go with it. (gotta love the new, better licensing!)

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Most universities will sell VisualSudio for about $25-$50 bucks, $400 does seem a bit out there.

Nate: so I am lie now?! :-) If you think I'm lying or it somehow isn't right, give my school's (Concordia University) computer store and ask them for a quote for Windows XP Professional. The # is (514) 848-7678, or 848-7665. One of these no longer works, so if you actually call, you may need to try both. :-)

Honestly now, would I make a claim in public if I couldn't substantiate it?

Try blackbox. My dormmate nextdoor showed it to me. It started in literally 2 seconds flat. I was amazed.

Uhh, FluxBox is based on the BlackBox source. ;-)

you mean besides the cd burning, autorun for all disks/removable storage etc, shell extensions that are kinda very simple but very useful (several relating to mp3s etc and many many for images), much improved driver support, blah blah blah im bored now. go read the feature list of xp. you're also forgetting the REAL point behind XP... to get the NT kernal into the home. Plus the pro edition has several features that will only become known when windows .net appears to make use of them in the office.

No, not that you are lying. But rather your school is ripping you off :)

CD-burning - never used it, not enough for any real work. It just got in the way of my regular cd-burning program.
Autorun - thank god for Powertoys which helped me turn it off alltogether. I'm not an idiot and I know how to start a program from cd, thankyouverymuch.
Shell extensions - not very sure what you mean by it, if it's explorer extensions there is no change as far as I can tell (again used Powertoys to manage those, Windows really needs to have this capacity builtin)
Driver support - the same as 2k. Again I'm not following you here.
So up to here you've been drawing blanks. Your final point is however valid - that is the purpose of XP, to get rid of the 9x base in home. Still they will not be able to do that at least for two or three years. I think.

Free software from Microsoft? Only if you are a college or high school student and unfortunately, I am now neither. Oh well....life goes on.

"All attendees will receive the full version of Visual Studio .NET Academic, a full version of Windows XP Professional, and other valuable items. Join us for an overview of the .NET Framework and a live demonstration of Visual Studio .NET. Choose the campus nearest you!

Note: Please be aware that you must be a staff member, faculty member or student with a valid school ID to attend these events. (Events are open to both high school and college students from neighboring schools.) Professional developers are encouraged to attend the events listed at http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/launch/ Send questions to vslaunch@msdnaa.net."

Yes, I certainly agree that Microsoft has a right to protect they intellectual property from piracy. But I don't think this is the way to do it. There are many other reasons I have, but the main being that WPA effectively locks XP to one machine. If I'm paying $300 for a $2 CD, I damn well better be able to use it (for what microsoft considers) on different PCs. I'm not talking about using it simultaneously on multiple PCs. I'm talking about upgrade and replacement changes. I always honor Microsoft license policies regarding how many machines I load the OS onto. But say I decide to revamp my system replacing the motherboard, ram, and CPU. It is not fair that this is considered a different computer under microsoft's policy! I do own a fully legal copy of XP Professional, but I use an activation patch to bypass it, because I don't want the OS locked to my current hardware configuration. For the price charged for XP, it is not fair to do that. $300 software should not be a "one time use" purchase. Once you buy a license, it should be yours to use for as long as you need (not just the lifecycle of your current PC).

FYI

I made some significant hardware changes on my machine that xp didn't like. It was not a terribly big deal to fix. I Just called Microshaft and they issued me a new number that worked just fine. They just took my word for it that it was the same machine. I do, however admit that it's a bit of a pain to have to do that.

"If I'm paying $300 for a $2 CD"
It's probably closer to paying 20c for a 20c CD and $299.80 for the software that's on the CD.

"$300 software should not be a "one time use" purchase."
That's really up to the developer to decide what they think their software is worth. It is then up to the consumer (you) to decide wether or not it's worth that much.

What's up with this, I have to agree with you twice in a row? :-(

heh heh ;-)

I would be interested to know what all you changed.

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

I have 3 Computers at Home: A laptop, and two desktops. Personally, I think it's only right to have compliant software - and I do. Valid Windows XP on the laptop and one of the desktops, and Windows 2000 on the other desktop. The thing that REALLY urks me is greed. Companies in the BSA (A software alliance made of several corporate software giants) claim that they want to prevent piracy because it raises consumer costs in the long run. So Microshaft turns around and comes out with a set of software (Not just windows but Office XP as well) that for Mr. John Q. Public is pretty much pirate proof, unless they go out of their way to break the EULA. Microsoft says that compliance is up. They say sales are up. SO WHY AREN'T PRICES DOWN??? Personally, the next version of windows had better be a heck of a lot cheaper and have some pretty awesome features for me to bother upgrading again. I'm tired of shelling out more and more dough for each succesive set of technology, when it should be getting cheaper because all the technology is cumulative. Furthermore, I have spent some time working in retail and have seen the kind of markup that the regular small business gets on software. generally it's 8% or less, which is just total crap. Microsoft was a little guy at one time. They need to recognize that there ARE still little guys out there who are on their side and just want to make a buck too. That's my spiel. Thanks for readin'.

Why do you think that prices aren't down?

The thing you forgot to take into account is that the new versions have new features.

So how do you know that the price isn't lower than it would have been if WPA wasn't there?

The above should be treated as just an intellectual exercise though. MS has admitted in the past that OS pricing is usually based on market analysis of what consumers are willing to pay, rather than being based on actual cost of production + markup.

Three new features isn't worth $199.00 to me. ;-)

Maybe not, but the market analysis MS did said that it was acceptable to most of the market.

So far, sales numbers are backing that up.

"Your desire to turn Betanews, a reliable source of information, into some sort of illegal site is beyond me. "

I saw betanews before it became popular and know what it posted.. Where do you think I got my origional copy of ME beta? They have gone to the good side now and that is good. But please.. I found it humorous.

it really annoys me how all the big companies always assume they have lost so and so much money..
This assumes that a ****ing lot of people would actually BUY their product wich they cant prove anyway. And really.. not a lot of people WOULD buy it when they gotta shell out a months vages for it.

It would just mean that people would buy pcs with it installed and prolly update a new OS a LOT less or even switch to Linux...FreeBSD..QNXRtP or similar..

Sure there is some loss.. but there is ALWAYS some loss.. its like a shop.. nomatter the cameras and guards walking around there is ALWAYS some loss.. And when they cant even make a product good enough for the price they demand.. well they WILL get ****ed over!

Its like with games.. you pay 50$ for a game where I live.. and they cant even guarantee I will like it!!

Personally im a bit for piracy.. if nothing else it forces the companies to realize they CANT RULE THE WORLD!

I/O

If you people want to post links to download the WPA key generator, than I suggest that you do it elsewhere. Your desire to turn Betanews, a reliable source of information, into some sort of illegal site is beyond me.

Surely it is not illegal to use the software itself? Using any information generated by the program to activate a copy of Windows XP is obviously illegal.

Unfortunately the DMCA makes it illegal to even own this software. BetaNews could even get in trouble for posting the screenshot of it. :-(

No it is not illegal to have that software or for BetaNews to report about it. Hell, they even used it in their labs.

Take a break, the DMCA isn't out to get everyone, I think it is a very good thing.

Yes, it is..

http://www.wired.com/new...es/0,2101,50450,00.html

you love it if you went out and actually bought Windows XP pro full version for $299 and found out ur cd key was already randomly generated by someone else and activated already? and then MS wont give u a new one.

No, that's not how it works, it generates a
"valid installation and activation codes" for windows XP.
that means, u get a valid serial number, and a valid activation code that it generates, just the way windows does. So you don't call microsoft at any point, but you make the pc believe u just did, and feed in the code generated. This way the time limit is disactivated, and windows update can not differenciate it from a valid retail copy.

I downloaded this "keygen" to check it out, and you are betanews is wrong. It generates cd keys, but it doesn't generate activation codes.

It likely generates corporate versions of keys which do not need to be activated, thus no activation code.

"and Windows XP out-selling its predecessors"

Last I heard (this was a couple months ago) XP was selling less copies in it's intial months that 98 did. Is this statistic still correct? Anyone with some reliable numbers?

zdnet.com had a post that WinXP sold far more copies then Win9x ever did...

Based on Bill Gates inaccurate depiction of WinXP sales numbers. I read that article too, and the articles that followed it. :-) The only reason XP did better than 95 is because of Microsoft's OEM agreements. MSFT has more XP sitting on OEM shelves than OEMS have sold. The most accurate method to use to determine XP in the market is OEM/Retail sales numbers.

I don't see why ANY software company even bothers with "protection" and "product activation". Resistance is futile. Microsfot should concentrate on securing thier products better rather then trying to develop bulls*** systems that will attempt to net them more cash... Anyone that dosen't want to pay for software these days simply doesn't. It's so easy its not even funny.

Imagine for a moment that you are the head of a large corporation. In order to succeed, you need to make money. You are losing millions upon millions of dollars every year to piracy, funds you COULD be using to make a product better. What do you do? Now, being in the spotlight of nearly every single news organization, website and magazine etc. you are most likely the main target for people to attack. Is it really possible to make something foolproof? No. Do they try? Yes. Anyone trying to support the userbase that Microsoft supports is going to run into problems with security, stability etc. I am not saying that it is an excuse, but no one is perfect. Every platform has their own problems, Linux, unix, macos, you name it, it's not perfect nor will it ever be. Besides, if they made a perfect product, would they have any competition? And isn't that what is causing them problems now???? My two cents.

Very well stated. Good points.

The problem is places like China steal the most, and there is no way to enforce the laws there, apparently. I wish they would stop making it hard on the "warez kiddiez" and go after large businesses overseas that steal mounds of software.

Luckily I saw your post before it was deleted and snagged the keygen. Unfortunately, the keys it generated for XP Home will not activate. They (I tried 5) work for installation, but not for activation.

Great post. I think WPA is wrong, but only in it's current form. I think MSFT has every right to protect their software.

Try generating more keys. A key you generate may work during initial setup, but not in the actual Product Activation Wizard. Just use another key for the actual wizard. Generate 5 or 10 keys, and print out the log file. Have another computer running while you're installing XP, so you may generate more keys if you need to. Like the article here says, it may take like 5 or 10 tries, but the keygen will come up with a good key eventually.

More power to them. I paid for my XP! I should be able to install as many times as I want on one PC without a hassle.

Fewt posted: "I think WPA is wrong, but only in it's current form. I think MSFT has every right to protect their software. "

Alright; who are you, and what are you doing posting under Fewt's Name?!?! LOL!!!

To me, WPA is more like a "time trial" period", but you don't have a way to return it if you don't like it in those 30 days >:-)

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

So, it is kind of a "hit or bare miss" type of deal? Or a 1 out of 3 chance of hitting one that does activation? (one doesn't work, one let's you install but not activate, once installs and activates?)
Seems like a bit of hassle if you are in a hurry, though. I wonder if it works with Office XP also, seeing as it uses the WPA feature also?

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Just because I they have commited crimes and should lose rights to IE (IMHO), and have other actions taken against their company doesn't mean that they don't have the right to protect their IP. ;-)

My thought exactly. I bought the retail boxed version, but I have a PC and a laptop. I'm sure as hell not going to pay for the OS twice. MS should have AT LEAST allowed two activations/cd. A lot of us are on the go and use laptops when we're not at home. Buying the OS twice is outrageous. If I am not mistaken, doesn't OfficeXP allow for two activations?

LOL, all I've got to say. As much as I dislike Microsoft's business practices, I like warez doodz even less. Buy the damn O/S and shut up, or switch to a free one. Their EULA has spelled out the fact that you can't use the O/S on more than one computer since at LEAST Windows 95.

I agree with Fewt. Besides, MOST commercial software is "install and use on ONE machine only!". Like my lawyer's Law software- $1,500 a year to use the single client license (only be installed and used on ONE system), so anyone that needs the research has to go to that one system (when not in use) to do research. For a network install, look at around 10x the cost for a 5 seat license.
So, yeah, the OS is "way over priced" compaired to everything else....

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

I do believe that the O/S is overpriced myself in comparison to OSX BSDO/S and Linux (Retail editions). I think their "Family pack" is a joke, but that's their call to make not mine. :-)

I'm stricken, fewt. You're actually standing up for MS. *grin*

I do agree, they have had some questionable business practices - but they still have the right to protect their software. While the WPA is a PITA, I think that Allen Nieman's comments on it making people more aware are accurate, and in that way it has been a good thing. I'm a software developer, by profession, and know that I'd want people paying for my goods. Though, I am aware that not everyone is going to.

-Sheppe

Fewt isn't as bad as the teenagers here make him out to be. (Though it is fun to act like one of them now and again)

I did some checking, and this program is supposed to work with the following:
XP Pro
XP Home
XP Corporate
Visio XP
Office XP Pro

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

CRACK! CRACK! Sweet.... but still not a SVL :)

I did buy XP and I am talking about installing on one PC not more than one. I just want to be able to install it multiple times on the same PC without going through hoops. If I change my hardware should that be considered another PC if I am still using only one?

"If I change my hardware should that be considered another PC if I am still using only one?"

NO, that's one of my biggest beefs with WPA.

ahahhahahaah, that's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading fewt's reply =)

What's with talking about ourselves in the 3rd person?

Just humor is all.

Talking in 3rd person? Fewt, are you trying to imitate The Rock (from WWF)? LOL!!

James Wheat
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

heh

Yes, yes... I agree with you, too.

What on the earth is the "XP Corporate"?
What's the difference between the
"XP Pro" and the "XP Corporate"??

What on the earth is the "XP Corporate"?
What's the difference between the
"XP Pro" and the "XP Corporate"??

The only difference is licensing. Corporate XP is XP pro designed to be deployed to many systems (no activation).

"XP Corporate" as people keep calling it is "Windows XP Professional MVL" (Microsoft Volume License)

It is a separate version of XP Pro (only a few files are different though) that allows the use of MVL serial numbers that do not require the separate step of "Product Activation".

The only legal way to obtain it is through one of Microsoft's volume licensing programs (minimum of 5 copies)

Just FYI, it is actually different media with a few files different than the reatil version.

The main purpose of this was to make it impossible to use MVL license codes on retail versions. (Though I belive that retail license codes do work, and still use WPA, on the MVL media)

I didn't change a thing, just reinstalled to hopefully stop the bsod's(didn't help). and I still had to call and get a new code!! that's sucks!!