Heh!
Time to move onto OpenOffice.org... :-p

While some posters have touched upon the various issues, I didn't see anyone who included all of them in one go.

Basically, it's not as easy as setting the clock at the right time, whether it be manually or through NTP. If you're synchronized with an NTP server, your machine on March 11th will do what it has always done: adjust its notion of GMT time.

But that's not all. The computer also has a notion of local time. So this needs to be taken into account, too.

Lastly, there *ARE* some applications that maintain their own notions of localtime. For example, all Java JREs will need to be either patched or replaced, because they maintain their own timezone tables independently of the operating system.

So, it's not an entirely trivial affair. One good thing that might happen is that administrators and end users might be urged/inspired to migrate away from MS products that are in their extended support phase. More specifically, I think it's a generally good idea for people to move to more recent products, as those products are most often more stable and usable and secure (at least we hope).

I think you need to search for "Fewt", I most certainly touched on OS and Application patches, and specified Java patches that needed to be updated as well.

;-)

The fact is that all current products are supported!

The only problem is that folks still running terribly out of date and unsupported MS products are whining that they either have to buy a discounted fix or manually change it!

And to think my 1943 DeSoto doesn't have a stock 5.1 radio upgrade! The nerve!

Selling the TZedit.exe for half price, just $2,000. Email me!

I'll install TZEDIT.EXE for a reasonable $1,000.00. I accept PayPal!!!!!

For an additional $10, I will call you at 2 AM on March 11th, to make sure your computer is not on fire.

OK For those who don't want to read all the comments, I'll summarize what I have read.

#1 Foxfyre is a complete idiot as he is telling everyone to simply start using NTP to sychronize your clock and you won't have a problem. This however will not work as NTP only syncronizes UTC and leaves it up to the local operating system to handle time zones.

#2 Microsoft is charging for this patch howver you really do not need it. You can use the TZEDIT.EXE program on ANY Windows OS to modify the time zone settings and change when DST kicks in.

#3 If you are in a corporate environment and use WSUS to update internally, the patch from Microsoft cannot be used on it as it's not "publicly" available. (this applies to the one you have to pay for now ones available via normal Windows Update)

#4 Linux, OSX and just about every other operating system that Automatically adjusts the clock for DST. Updates to the time zone tables will be needed by some manual process or automatic patching.

#5 Some applications also need patching but it's dependant upon the application. Best thing to do is check into anything that relies on correct time in some way.

"#3 If you are in a corporate environment and use WSUS to update internally, the patch from Microsoft cannot be used on it as it's not "publicly" available."

You CAN...only on currently supported OS's (2003, XP, etc).

I edited my comment to make it clearer.

I said to use NTP to sync and to automatically update multiple computers without having to manually change all of your servers in reference to all of the whiners complaining about having to reset all of their servers manually!! Dumb @ss!

And all of the other platforms have readily available fixes ALREADY.

I don't understand what this news is about. On one hand it says "MS will not be charging the standard fee ... to join its Extended Support Hotfix program." Huh? Of course they don't. In their lifecycle policy, one has 90 days to enter this program after ending of mainstream support. For Windows 2000 Server, this was in 2005. A little bit late for entering...
So do I have to pay 4000 $ when I am not in this program? Well, seems to be quite normal. But... on the other hand, in Foley's blog it says they (MS) "amend the regular Extended Hotfix support program.". What does that mean? Will I have to pay 4000 $ even if I already have a support-contract for this extended support program, which ends up in 2010? So why do I pay for this contract which guarantees non-security hotfixes?

I am not a customer, it's just interesting.

Yes, if you are running out of date unsupported MS platforms, MS is offering a discounted fix that does not require the exorbitant full support subscription cost.

A bargain.

But the problem is that the MS users are whining that it is not free!

Poor babies. They need a remedial course to understand the meaning of the word "unsupported"!

Let me explain the problem, as described by a MS rep.
Setting the computer clock is NOT the issue, it IS the applications: Exchange , Outlook, etal store appointments reminders as GMT. i.e. enter an appointment for 10:00AM, look up time offset from registry ( magic happens ), store 1600GMT. Change the time table, and ask when is the appointment. Reads 1600GMT, looks up time offset, ( magic happens ), be there at 9:00AM. DUH !

This has been a great post! I actually read the whole thing.

Anyway, Dan-o had it, just use the free utilities MS put out which works on the unsupported Windows 2000 varieties (at least SP4) and don't pay the $4000. If you call your self a Sys Admin or something remotly similar, you should be able to accomplish this. If not, then maybe you should fork over the $4k and sleep tight on Sunday night.

Don't forget to set your clock ahead one hour.

Maybe I'm missing something here. So Microsoft doesn't take into account DST during their development, and they want customers to pay for a patch that fixes their short sightedness?

Again, I may not fully understand the issue, but this is how it is appearing to me.

You are certainintely missing something here. The US (amongst other countries) have changed their DST rules, hence the (small) need for a patch so that the PC clock is changed at the right times. Not Microsoft's fault AT ALL.

You can simply do it manually yourself.

Correct, instead of referencing system timezones some of their software uses internal timezone tables.

They are charging $4K to fix their poor code.

Not all shops can just move from Exchange 5.5 or 2000 to Exchange 2K3. Those that can't have to pay $4,000 per server for a patch.

It's extortion, plain and simple.

ex·tor·tion /?k?st?r??n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ik-stawr-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an act or instance of extorting.
2. Law. the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.
4. anything extorted.
[Origin: 1250–1300; ME extorcion < LL extorti?n- (s. of extorti?). See extort, -ion]

—Synonyms 1, 4. blackmail.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extortion

Ahh, fewt. Was wondering when you'd start making comments that I completely disagree with again.

Your extortion definition does not work, for three reasons:

1. Microsoft is not forcing you to use their $4,000 patch--there are workarounds;
2. Microsoft Windows 2000 Pro/Server are no longer under mainstream support. Think about it--they are 7 years old, you know.
3. It is not an "excessive price or interest": usually non-lifecycle hotfixes cost over $5,000 per incident.

Seriously, how long should Microsoft support free updates for a mainstream OS? Ten years? Twenty? Where do we draw the line?

What's the workaround for Exchange 5.5 and 2000?

A: $4K patch
B: $$$ upgrade to Exchange 2003
C: Migrate off of Exchange completely

Is C really an option? No. Sorry, extortion.

Again, you are missing the boat. I didn't say the Windows patch was extortion, I'm speaking of the Exchange patch.

Thx.

heh

I'll ignore the fact that you mention 5.5, because anyone that's still running that should be fired.

And I see no reason why anyone should still be on exchange 2000 either. We're talking 7 year old software. I've never had a car that long, let alone software that is critical to my business.

Everyone should just have software assurance, accept that software is costing $xxx yearly and keep up to date. There's no excuse.

Can you provide some documentation or something outlining this (I'm not saying you're lying, I'd just be interested in reading through the changes)?

When did DST rules change?

Also, are you saying that if you just change the clock yourself, there isn't a problem? If that's the case, then what's all the hubbub?

I hope you're kidding...in the past two years you haven't read or watched a single bit of news??

This year DST is coming early and ending late.

Yea you can change all the times yourself and not have a problem...can you come and do it on our 1000 servers and 5000 workstations, 500 laptops, 500 blackberries and our phone systems? Thanks.

Sure. It's called a script. It gets executed at login.

Maybe it'd be cheaper to get one of those prolific virus authors who have no problem deploying their script to millions of machines to do it.

So far, $4k is not justified.

I'm inclined to agree with you from what I've gathered thus far.

People whine about Microsoft should not have to support products that are 5, 6, or 7 years old. I'm not anti-Microsoft, but this further justifies going with more open source alternatives. Linux has been supported for how long, exactly?

Linux has been supported for how long, exactly?
Well, "exactly" I am not sure, but the real question is, how long has a seven year old version of the linux kernal been supported and how much those companies professionally supporting it charge, isn't it?

You miss the point! Everyone is a victim! They make a choice knowing full well that there is a lifecycle to all products, ESPECIALLY MS's! And then they wait years running out of date software, know full well that it is or will be unsupported, and then complain that it is no longer supported!

Only in this case, MS IS supporting it for this fix, which they can get for a bargain price compared to the regular current support costs.

Poor babies. But they are "PROS"!

The making of patches does cost money, the cost of the change in code for this patch, which has nothing to do with me by product or country, would be say, to be nice, an hours worth for one programmer. Thats from conception stage to final build, maybe a couple of coffee breaks if he loves his caffeine. The main reason for the exorbitant cost is that for that price you might as well upgrade to the latest version,and they know that. HINT HINT! Hint taken!

This is a non-issue. Some consultant website will provide a 100% automatic/deployable 100% convenient 100% LEGAL alternative fix which google will quickly index for the obvious keywords...WINDOWS 2000/98 DAYLIGHT SAVING FIX/PATCH

Wow, maybe Beta News can develop a computer OS and do a better job of supporting it when it gets to be eight years old. Sorry but I gotta support MS on this one.

yup.

Figures MS would do something like this.
They should be providing it free.

For a product that is no longer supported? Why should they provide it free?

Another one who has trouble understanding the word "unsupported".

This isn't even news. Everyone that works with MS products, should have been reading their e-mails and been aware of this long ago. Time to upgrade or move to something else. No reason on Earth to sit and whine about this.

I guess no one here actually uses servers, y'all just talk smack about them like you know-it-all.

It's not just about tzedit or ntp.

Anyone with Exchange knows the real story about the impact of DST changes. A $4K patch for an issue cooked up by not following coding standards when building an enterprise application (don't hard code timezones folks, just an FYI.) = extortion.

Hahahaha!

Congress changes the rules and now it's MS's responsibility to pay for your inconvenience!

I'm no MS fan, but this claim is totally absurd.

And dare I ask, why is it that Only the MS users are upset? It wouldn't be that all of the other platform users are already aware of the available tools and don't have a victim mentality would it?

Oh, and response to your objection below that a script "doesn't fix all of the other enterprise applications that use time on your network (though it may fix some)."

Huh???

Applications Don't set time. But using a NTP server synchronizes ALL of your servers (those are the things that run the applications! Duh.) and networked devices 'automatically'.

FOR FREE!

And your comment that 'scripts do not fix application times' demonstrates that you know less about this than those you are complaining about! 'Yeah, your server times may be corrected, but what about the application!????'

DUH!!!!

You said:
Hahahaha!

Congress changes the rules and now it's MS's responsibility to pay for your inconvenience!

I'm no MS fan, but this claim is totally absurd.

And dare I ask, why is it that Only the MS users are upset? It wouldn't be that all of the other platform users are already aware of the available tools and don't have a victim mentality would it?

Oh, and response to your objection below that a script "doesn't fix all of the other enterprise applications that use time on your network (though it may fix some)."

Huh???

Applications Don't set time. But using a NTP server synchronizes ALL of your servers (those are the things that run the applications! Duh.) and networked devices 'automatically'.

FOR FREE!

And your comment that 'scripts do not fix application times' demonstrates that you know less about this than those you are complaining about! 'Yeah, your server times may be corrected, but what about the application!????'

DUH!!!!
--------------
Response:

"huh"

That's about right.

'nuff said.

heh

Doofus, Tell use more about how applications manage time.....

"I guess no one here actually uses servers, y'all just talk smack about them like you know-it-all."

Well, one thing is certain: you have VERY effectively differentiated yourself from anyone who knows what this topic is about!

Keep talking, I haven't had such a good laugh in a while!

You said:
Doofus, Tell use more about how applications manage time.....

"I guess no one here actually uses servers, y'all just talk smack about them like you know-it-all."

Well, one thing is certain: you have VERY effectively differentiated yourself from anyone who knows what this topic is about!

Keep talking, I haven't had such a good laugh in a while!

--------
Response:

"Why Exchange Needs Updating

Exchange Server versions 2003, 2000, and 5.5 use a publicly documented technology called CDO (Collaboration Data Objects) to manage calendars. CDO is the public interface for MAPI. CDO uses enumerators to map time zone information. While Microsoft calendar software, such as Outlook, depends on the operating system time zone information to display time information, CDO-based applications depend on separate internal time zone tables. The DST update for Exchange Server modifies these internal time zone tables to match the changes in time zone settings. Without this update, calendar items in CDO-based applications will operate as if standard time is in effect during the extra weeks of DST. Below is a list of known CDO-based applications that are affected by the DST rules change:"
Source: http://technet.microsoft...s/library/bb267339.aspx

"Problems Affecting Java Applications

The Java Runtime Environment (JRE) stores rules about DST observance all around the globe. Older JREs will have outdated rules that will be superseded by the Energy Policy Act of 2005. As a result, applications running on an older JRE may report incorrect time from March 11, 2007 through April 2, 2007 and from October 29, 2007 through November 4, 2007. "

Source: http://java.sun.com/deve...icalArticles/Intl/USDST/

Linux *programs* impacted:

" Services

* syslogd
* klogd
* vixie crond
* opensshd
* sendmail
* postfix
* net-snmpd
* BIND named "

Source: http://www.bloomingtonli.../DST_Time_Change_Issues

There you go some "small" examples of how DST is bigger than just an OS keeping time. Now be a good mental midget and take a nap for us.

Thanks.

Genius, NTP is built into all UNIXes. All they have to do is enable it!

And the Linix "programs" you have listed as simply processes that derive their time from the OS and, if implemented, ntp!

The fact remains, ALL of the current OSes have a free fix for this, including XP and Vista.

If you are not running a currently supported version, for whatever reason, enjoy.

"Microsoft released an announcement which essentially said that users with Vista and parts of Office 2007 are all set! Everyone else (the vast majority of Windows users) will need to put in a little work. Users of XP Pro who have service pack 2 installed will simply need to run Windows Update, no reboot necessary.

If you’re still running pretty much anything else, there is a bit more involved. Outlook 2007 and its predecessors, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Visual Studio, and Windows CE, will all require a manual edit to update, including servers, and will then require a reboot. No word yet on Windows Mobile, other than to say that it will require a registry key set to be installed, and Microsoft has released those keys to the OEM vendors for distribution.

Mac owners, I’m afraid you don’t escape from the grief this time. Apple OS will run an automatic update, and will require a reboot.

HP-UX, older versions of Suse, and Red Hat will require patch installs. Solaris and AIX will require a patch and a reboot.

Beyond the operating system, enterprises will need to fix: Exchange Server, Outlook, Dynamics CRM, SQL Server Notification Services, Windows SharePoint Services, Office Live Meeting and/or Microsoft Entourage, according to Microsoft."
http://dccblog.wordpress...bout-changing-the-clock/

As you will note above, ONLY the incredible MS products are having problems with this! And since I could care less about Windows and the robust advanced MS environment that can't even deal with time changes (as I much prefer the UNIX world), please tell us more about why MS is such a good choice!

For the rest of the world, it is simply an OS issue. But for you advanced MS types, have fun! We all feel your pain, as we ROFLMAO!

Just another example of the price you pay for "saving all of that money" as the MS whitepapers keep telling us by implementing Windows!

I guess you missed the boat on the part where ntp uses /etc/localtime.

Other issues with DST:
HPUX Java:
http://www.hp.com/products1/unix/java/DST-US.html

RHEL4:
http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_85_9951

HPUX 11i:
http://forums1.itrc.hp.c...wer.do?threadId=1097780

If you only set NTP and didn't patch you are a fool that doesn't deserve a computer.

It would be naive to think that no application on Linux / Unix could use internal TZ tables. I know of many.

In a few days it may suck to be you.

'nuff said

g'nite.

Nope! And even Intel uses them (RS/6000 SPs and later) as well for internal development. We are good to go. This is all old news, and easily fixed for us.

Its just you MS jockeys that are staying up late worrying. Sort of like the Y2K issue, isn't it?... that UNIX never had.

But here IS a really big difference. We have to schedule reboots as scheduled downtime - the norm being ONCE a year for routine updates and maintenence.

With Windows, they are so frequent and unplanned that it really doesn't matter, its just SOP. Funny, we don't schedule ours in terms of 'today am' or 'today pm'.

Hows about you tell us all where you work if you are so sure so we can follow them in the news.

MS Jockey, funny stuff. Nothing like losing more credibility calling *ME* an MS Jockey.

It's all about due diligence and protecting the business you are paid to support.

You obviously don't comprehend that.

What an interesting spin you've put on your argument that all you need is NTP by twisting it into an MS issue.

Hey, thanks for the links to the client applications above. Nothing like a little "stupid" to lighten the evening. Hint: The topic of this thread is SERVERS, and ENTERPRISE SERVER APPLICATIONS, not desktop apps.

Heres the highlight of your stupidity:
"As you will note above, ONLY the incredible MS products are having problems with this!"

Yet in your own post:

"HP-UX, older versions of Suse, and Red Hat will require patch installs. Solaris and AIX will require a patch and a reboot."

What was it?

Oh right, you cain't fix stoopid.

Thanks.

"Microsoft will not be charging the standard, pricey fee to join its Extended Support Hotfix program. Instead, customers can simply purchase the DST hotfixes they need for a flat $4,000 USD fee."

Enterprises running old unsupported MS products. Sounds like a theme park.

Sounds like a bargain. Enjoy!

I agree. it seems they waited until the last minute to do anything. It appears they decided this is the most profitable move.

Last minute? Do you ever read the terms of "extended support" and what it means for product retirement? This is not new. It's been planned for a LONG time. Patches for products in this phase cost money. Sometimes more than this.

Patching Windows isn't that bad. Patching an Exchange environment can be, depending on whether you're on 5.5, 2000 or 2003 and which Outlook versions are deployed. Even though apps "don't set time" they store it. Calendar events are stored internal to Exchange, and the invites sent from events convey a relative time offset. The problem is that patching one client doesn't necessarily fix all the others invited if their's aren't patched also. It's messy, but again, it was known since 2005 that it was coming and since 2005 that Win2k was on the way out and would enter extended support phase. 2+2. Nobody should be surprised.

Only the OS requires a fix! None of their apps do!

And all you need to sync and automatically manage time between an entire enterprise site is ntp. Out OSes have no problem with this change to the DST routine. It is simply an update. And all of the platforms receive it.

Basically, all the DST mod is is a modification to the previously defined routine that defines the DST modification to the routine. The DST routine is in itself simply a modification to the basic time routine. A cron job if you will.
Thus the fix is simply a modification of this mod routine to change the original coded date - so as such it is just a routine mod to the original mod. Its NOT a big deal. In fact it is nothing to worry about at all. It is simply a change. But I guess that is too complicated for you!

And the bottom line for such systems is that NO additional work is required to have the DST change occur without incident. In fact, all of this is a wacko diversion, as it has no impact upon our systems. It didn't cost any additional money and it didn't cause any extra work.

That must really confuse you!

You are the one with the out of date unsupported MS platforms that you are whining about!

And you are the one with the MS apps that require the fix as well. Talk about advanced time management!

That was the original point of contention, but I understand your running for any port in a storm.

But then you are the one dealing with unsupported and out of date MS products, both OSes and apps, and whining how THEY should be obligated to fix them FOR you.

The fact that you have unsupported MS apps that use such convoluted time management is your problem. The larger platforms don't have that problem.

This issue was a moot point almost from inception. No drama, no worry. And we routinely install the tested updates. And we run ntp to synchronize complexes, including inter-continental HAGEO complexes, syncing systems in many different time zones on several continents - whether they have DST or not! No big deal.

But it is amazing what a big deal this is to your MS systems!

But the REAL irony is that MS WILL fix them for you, for LESS then they REGULARLY charge for support for such out of date products! Poor baby!

And as you deal with MS products, fixes SHOULD be a relatively routine step for you!

We get relatively few fixes that are fundamental for the OS, and the others usually apply only for niche applications - and most of those being mods for the niche top security DOD applications running on DOD and national lab systems.

So your whine is all about having to pay for your intelligent decision to run out of date unsupported products! What part of "UNSUPPORTED" do you NOT understand????

YOU are the one stuck with products with which someone thought that they could save money by not upgrading to current supported products. So enjoy their intelligence and their foresight!

As far as I am concerned, MS would be well within their rights to simply leave you hanging.

And then you could mull the meaning of "unsupported" as you blame everyone but yourself.

This post is really funny because:

A: I couldnt care less about MS products.
B: I'm not whining only correcting your inaccurate posts about NTP being a savior.
C: All of my systems are patched, this includes middleware.
D: See A.

'nuff said

You obviously haven't a clue. Microsoft can't forsee other people changing the DST rules as they see fit so how is it Microsoft's fault?

More than $4K per server?

We are talking 9 dlls and 1 exe, I bet they fixed it overnight with 2-3 lines of code.

Give me a break.

Microsoft has worked this way since their support lifecycles began back in 2001, fewt. Are you only now discovering this, or you just haven't complained about it until now?

If Microsoft makes exceptions, EVERYONE will EXPECT them for every "issue of this sort." Seriously, get some sense. The network at our call center uses lots of Windows 2000 Servers and clients, and they've already been 'fixed' and have tested the fixes. One doesn't need Microsoft's assistence for a simple issue regarding a DST issue.

I'd refer you to the network administrator here, but heh I can't give out his info :)

Thanks, don't need to talk to your administrator.

Administrators generally query me for direction.

heh

I found this to be quite hilarious. It is the first time someone has outlasted fewt as well, that in and of itself merits a congressional medal of honor.

I'm only kidding, fewt :)

Outlasted != bested.

As I said, you cain't fix stoopid.

You can only talk to a wall for so long before you lose interest.

:-P

heh

Ah, virtual arguments between anonymous people beating their virtual chests back and forth. I can smell the virtual testosterone from here.

heh

enterprise level systems architect != hooking up two gameboys to play Star Trek Voyager

what tool comes to a site to brag about their title.. wait, yet not reveal the even cooler one.. Environmental Health and Safety Reaction Specialist (yeah, the one that carries kitty litter). With your awesome title, you should be able to find 4k between your cushions.

Seriously though, 4k will buy a basic server with a 2k3 license easy. Don't you catch the drift? At what point do you say "no means no"? Or in this case, "no means no, but we do have a price tag.. (as does everyone)"

Enterprise mail systems are multi-time zone applications and they do need the patch.

So does, CISCO, Nortel, Nobel, UNIX, Apple OS, Novell, BES and Linux Distros, are a few.

Simply setting NTP will only sync to GMT, and will not account for the actual time zone of the client.

Whereas changing the clock on your local computer will be simple, in the enterprise environment, its foolish to think that this is as simple.

I believe M$ has every right to request capital support for this patch as they have stated the end of the support pipeline of these products for years.

Every other developer is also charging to create a fix for software that is end of life.

Take my word for whats its worth, I could care less if you believe this or not!

I didn't come here to brag about anything. Since you obviously don't like it and it's not helpful, I've nixed it. Regardless, I started posting to correct the misinformation that others may have taken as fact to help people.

Thanks for falling into the yet another loser catagory.

Seriously, $4k is to push people to the latest Exchange. As you just implied.

What did I say initially? Oh, extortion.

Thanks.

So if your car dealer stops carrying parts for your ancient vehicle, and the after market offerings are 20x the original retail price, you call that extortion also? It's called BUY A NEWER PRODUCT.

The site below lists the time servers used by the NIST Internet Time Service (ITS) for use with NTP. Their table lists each server's name, IP address, and location.

http://tf.nist.gov/service/time-servers.html

And here are the instructions for NTP on Windows 2003 server:
http://www.microsoft.com.../ws03mngd/26_s3wts.mspx

XP:
http://csg.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/tips/ntp/winxp

BOTH:
http://technet2.microsof...2db3a1033.mspx?mfr=true

Windows2000:
http://www.timetools.co....000-ntp-time-server.htm

How difficult can this be!?!?!

And for all of those who are clueless as to what NTP is! Read this, as I think it will help:
http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-def.htm

Note: The posting is good as a 'general' explanation of NTP, but it is dated in regards to the OSes supported, and there is support for Windows, no thanks to MS dragging its feet when it comes to supporting an open standard! And MS has their own nifty work alike version for time services! Now that should scare you!

Basically, you are designating a primary and a secondary site as sources for the time. These sources are typically the NIST atomic clock transmitters. But they could easily be services such as EBay...

You configure a server in your network (or a standalone box if only one) to query the time source. It will do this on regular intervals. Then the time is queried or pushed (depending upon your individual configuration) by the units in your network and updated as needed.

The big advantage of this, aside from not having to deal with setting each box individually, is that all of the servers are synchronized to the same time. Thus shared and distributed resources are all using the same time, not some hodgepodge of 'kinda close' times.

Additionally, many services will fail if the times of individual servers and resources are off by more than ~5 minutes...So this avoids that hassle as well.

This service can be configured over OpenSSH, so there should be no problem with penetration and run through your firewall. Nothing unusual...and it potentially saves allot of hassle. Have fun.

See the above sites.

For someone who talks down to everybody on the forum you do know how to confidently give out misinformation.

You're right, if you're using NTP (and if you're running a Windows domain, you are), then your clocks should all be sync'd, and stay sync'd on march 11th. However, what does NTP sync exactly? It sync's the UTC clock, which windows then adjusts based on its timezone table.

So go ahead, follow foxfyre's recommendation of not patching servers because you're already using the built in NTP functionality, just make sure you're ready to spend the entire March 11th sunday at work...hey, at least it's not football season.

NO ONE said don't patch!

The Windows folks are whining that old unsupported software is not being supported with a free fix!

They have the option of paying a reduced price for the fix bu they are still whining that the UNSUPPORTED product fix is not free!

This is hilarious!

So many personal users who are so adroit with computers having problems updating the clock on their personal computers.

Let's see, intelligent enterprises are already using NTP in order to sync ALL of their servers to the same source as each individual Windows clock is notoriously inconsistent, $4k is a nominal incident service charge for an enterprise (but home users are oblivious to this fact), and on top of that, these folks find it so heinous to change their PC clock but I hear nothing about their watches, clock radios, alarms, microwaves, VCRs, DVRs, coffee makers and car clocks!

Poor babies!

And for all of you admins who are scrambling for a fix that you don't need (except for your ignorance of services already available!), look up NTP and configure it FOR FREE! I can only imagine if you are using Kerberos or distributed databases with the inconsistent individual clock times managed by each individual server!

So much ado over nothing!

uh oh, Foxfyre is getting ready to tell everyone how stupid they are. You know that means YOU have a problem, right? give up, we're on to you.

In your case I don't. As I suspect your mommy has already agreed to solve your dire dilemma. Thanks for making my job that much easier.

And if you were running around thinking that this was a big problem, or ready to spend $4000, well, I think you have Already identified yourself!

If you read my post below, you would know that I have already completed it. I called it. You have a superiority complex, which means your not.

Hey, you're the genius running 'fixes' instead of simply running Windows variant of NTP.

For others this was Never an issue and they did not have to find a fix.

Let's see...you can either be aware of a system that has been available for at least 15 years, or you can run amuck looking for a fix.

You tell me, which solution is more elegant?
The irony is that those who aren't as swooft as you, but who are familiar with industry standard tools and protocols, didn't have to mess with your fix that has the potential to cause as many problems as it solves, depending upon their configurations. And on top of your fix, your servers and resources are still not synced.

So while you run around 'fixing' things, the rest of the world either panics because changing a clock setting is such an insurmountable issue, or they sleep soundly, not worrying about the time.

But I am glad that you found a fix instead of simply manually changing the time.

You are definitely 'superior' to those who are simply aware of more elegant and proven tools that do not require fixes. But I guess you consider them 'lazy' as well.

You might want to spend more time becoming aware of standard protocols rather than reactively looking for fixes. The irony is that this solution is even 'old' for Windows!

But then I guess You have a problem with someone referring to "NTP" as well. Yeah, I know, them big fancy 'words' sure is komplekated.

"And for all of you admins who are scrambling for a fix that you don't need (except for your ignorance of services already available!), look up NTP and configure it FOR FREE!"

I'm really happy for the guy below you waiting to get a promotion to fill your spot...it might come sooner then he thinks.

" Hey, you're the genius running 'fixes' instead of simply running Windows variant of NTP."

Ah...there it is again, I love it. :)

"Let's see...you can either be aware of a system that has been available for at least 15 years, or you can run amuck looking for a fix."

Maybe YOU should become more familiar with this system before mocking the entire planet.

lol, you are a funny guy, I do know what ntp is, but the fact is that the DST times are more than just setting a clock. rather than set the time on the system clock to be 'right' for the 4 off weeks, it is better to set the time zones correctly. the problem with exchange is that the mailbox stores are made to adjust to various time zones. If you were to just change the time, Arizona time and alaska time would not be right. this in effect rules out using NTP to correct the problem. Also since the mailbox has these settings, you must fix this too. in a domain where you have multiple time zones, you must account for this. MS still advises to manually change meetings if they aren't right. If you just did the NTP change, email isn't going to be right if you use exhcange. You have to run another tool and manually adjust anything that doesn't work right. This is for SUPPORTED products.

Who gives a F#%$ about old unsupported MS systems! Or supported ones for that matter.

I am one of those who managed to make choices that so many claim do not exist and I don't live in the Windows server world nor whine about unsupported products being charged a bargain price for fixes!

And if you are running old unsupported MS systems in an enterprise environment and are still afraid or unwilling to pay a bargain price for a six for the product, TUFF SH!T! You are getting exactly what YOU deserve!

Why pay any money for a tool that they offer for free??? TZEDIT.exe. I have already done this for our enterprise and sent out a reg fix for the time zone. No big deal. any user that downloads this tool can edit the time zone. it can work in a small network or large. paying per incident for this seems a bit erratic, but you know, our country decided to do this in 2005. Not 2007. Windows 2000 was still supported at the time. They should do it for free. they waited until the last minute to release it (not really but november) and since outlook has its own calendar, the mailbox needs another tool called TZMOVE.exe which moves the meetings that were scheduled after the patch.

If you are too lazy to use the tool, in the 928388 patch they repealed, it had the reg fix already done, copy/paste into notepad, rename to .reg. Can someone pay me $2000. plus expense and i will do it for you!

TZMove only fixes multi-occurrence and multi-attendant meetings. Individual one-time appointments are not touched.

Do you know how many appointments would not be fixed in a 46 Exchange Server environment with over 12000 users?

Hey - if you don't like this crap, tell Congress. They slipped this in, in efforts to "lower foreign oil consumption." This all happen because a bunch of blowhards thought that changing clocks would look compassionate, and get votes, be damned the consequences.

Yes, MS is acting stupidly. But let's not forget the source - Congress.

the point is that the decision was made far before now. it was only Jan 9, 2007 that ms stopped supporting windows 2000. they could have written an update before hand. Since this only affects the time zone and is not critical, I would have expected them to do it for free. Its not like no one knew it was coming...They knew in 05. it was the interest groups that were interested in the change, not congress. they did it for the money.

btw, they changed the DST in Austrailia too.

I knew Microsoft likes to rip-off its home users, but this one takes the cake.

Personally, I believe they are doing this for a single reason: To force owners of older machines and Microsoft software to go into further debt by buying expensive Vista machines they really don't need.

Mr. Chandler, you are a MASTER of understatement, by the way.

I wouldn't call it "a bit over the top, maybe". I would call it "violently strong-arming the consumers with the least amount of money at their disposal."

Hopefully, Microsoft will gain a social conscience sometime in the near future, and lower the price for this hot-fix on pre-XP computers about $4,000.

"Personally, I believe they are doing this for a single reason: To force owners of older machines and Microsoft software to go into further debt by buying expensive Vista machines they really don't need."

To reset the clock on your personal machine?
Hahaha!

Get a grip! If you're too lazy to reset the clock (does your mommy change your watch and microwave clock too!), then set your big Windows machine to follow EBay time!

Resetting your clock won't cost you a penny! But maybe your mommy should charge you $4000 as a stupidity toll!

And if its your personal standalone machine, just what difference does it really matter?

But you run out and buy a new machine to solve this near disastrous problem!

Unfortunately, you will be only addressing Your problem, not solving it!

Fuk, thats funny...

A bit over the top perhaps. How does it work out as 4 thousand, WOW

Josh Chandler
www.techoriphic.com

One wonders why anyone is using a Windows box clock as a reference?

If they are not using a primary and a secondary server to monitor the NIST atomic clock sites and to serve as NTP time servers, well, quite frankly, they deserve all of that wonderful(sic) Windows functionality.

With NTP so easily configured, one wonders why this is anything more than a footnote. Yawn.

And no one who is familiar with administering a server would consider writing a script to update clocks when a much more reliable and 'universal' protocol already exits...on the other hand, I guess they might if they find Windows to be 'all that'...

And as mentioned below, as far as an enterprise support charge, this is rather trivial taken in context.

On the other hand, MS just seems destined to walk into doors as far as PR is concerned. They missed an opportunity to display goodwill and come out ahead.

"On the other hand, MS just seems destined to walk into doors as far as PR is concerned. They missed an opportunity to display goodwill and come out ahead."

Yes, but unfortunately, people would have complained even MORE if they did it free for Windows 2000 because the Windows 98SE and ME users wouldn't have had it for free. Sadley, if Microsoft ever makes an exception to be nice, more people complain that they didn't have the exception for them.

Windows 98 and ME are not server OSes!

As far as I am concerned, individual machines who have not already been set up to either read NTP or EBay can set it themselves. After all, they choose that configuration when alternatives are readily available.

I wonder what these people do for their watches or home clocks??? How dysfunctional can someone be?

This problem does not really affect the average user, but if you are a corporation that is running a Domain, ALOT of Server (Especially HP, Compaq and Dell) if the time is off, the Domain controller will NOT allow you to log in.

There is more an issue with VCR's (Most have DST Built in) the the average Home user's PC.

Programmers/novice script writers can deploy a logon script to run whenever the clock hits 3:00 AM to move forward an hour...it is pretty easy to do. I'm far from considering myself a 'programmer', but even with the few things I know about .bat files and Windows XP scripts, I could write something to fix this issue that the DC can force as a logon command to all clients that logon to the domain between now and March 11th.

You make the assumption that all are running Active Directory or regularly run scripts. I am at a site that NEVER does and they would rather send IT people out to install a patch on 800 PC, then set up a script to do it automatically.

That doesn't fix all of the other enterprise applications that use time on your network (though it may fix some).

Whatever you think of it, you really have to laugh it off as another day in a Microsoft world. CIOs and CFOs, however, won't dismiss the cost so nonchalantly. While we're at it, how's that 1900 Leap Year problem coming in OXML yet? ISO ain't gonna standardize that, trust me!

Alrighty, here we go: First of all, this is not a critical issue, therefore it is not supported under extended support phase. By default, this would be the case for any non-critical issue. Secondly, the $4,000 price is BELOW AVERAGE for paid support for extended issues as they usually charge $5,000 USD on average per incident.

Yes, this article presents this scenario in a negative light, but this is what I would have expected anyways. Microsoft has to pay their veterans to dig into the code of an 'ancient' OS to go at the code and figure out how to fix an issue on an unsupported OS. Think about it: how many organisations may still use Windows 95 clients? Would any of you IT folks here just love to fix a compatability issue between program x and WINDOWS 95 OSR 2.1? No! You'd think the company was out of their minds to try and run enterprise software on Win95 machines today--yet this happens everywhere.

Microsoft cannot teach new employees everything about every new OS and old, they have to pull the plug somewhere. I'll even bet you there has been a company that paid MS to fix an issue with Windows for Workgroups 3.11 in the past year, the poor bas****.

Now for the real argument: Windows 2000.

1. Set the clock your frikin self, or:
2. Syncronize it with the atomic clock and that'll be that.

Seriously, is that going to destroy Windows 2000? Will your PC/Server self destruct on March 11th at 3:00AM? No! This is miniscule, write a simple script to run on all your 2000 units and use the "at" command to force it to run at 3:00AM and presto, you save your company $4,000.

well what part of "we dont support this anymore for free" did the rest of the world miss?

I was told by one of our IT guys here at work that MS originally wanted $40,000 for this patch but after enough people complained they dropped it to $4,000.

Oh really? I thought it was $400,000.

You're all stupid, it was clearly $4,000,000,000.

I sense a disturbance in the force... as if millions of IT administrators cried out, and then snuck off to the nearest torrent site...

LOL people dont work for free ... you know how much the hourly rate is for a standard IT? SO this Flamebait Microsoft news is justified.