Microsoft Calls Reports of Missing Outlook Files 'Not Accurate'

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

March 16, 2007, 3:40 PM

In a new post-script to a message headed "OneCare's Dedication to Our Customers" originally posted yesterday on the Microsoft Windows Live OneCare Team blog, lead product manager Gina Narkunas declares the Outlook e-mail file deletion issue "fixed," but then attempts to explain that the .PST files containing the entirety of users' local e-mail stores weren't really deleted to begin with: "not that the files are deleted, just that they can't find them."

The message comes a day after a OneCare user accidentally discovered on his own that his .PST file, which he believed had been deleted when it was supposed to have been merely quarantined by OneCare, had actually been rendered "deleted" by Windows System Restore, which he had invoked earlier in trying to recover the .PST file. In attempting to address an unrelated bug, the user had rolled back his system restore, after which the .PST reappeared within OneCare's quarantine directory.

Narkunas makes reference to this single case in this excerpt from her post-script: "We have also seen some instances where customers attempted to do a system restore after their .pst or .dbx files were quarantined and then could no longer find the files in their quarantine list - not that the files are deleted, just that they can't find them."

If a customer believes his .PST file has been deleted by OneCare, Narkunas explains, that thought was probably put into the customer's head by the kind of stuff he probably read on the Internet someplace.

"Recent reports about this bug conveyed that OneCare actually deleted Outlook files," Narkunas wrote, "which is not accurate and has caused some confusion in the community. It is important to clarify that although in certain cases OneCare might automatically delete a piece of malware, OneCare does not delete archive files such as .pst or .dbx files, nor does the design of the service allow users to set OneCare to automatically delete such files when quarantined."

In other words, the most likely scenario in the case of apparent deletion is that the user probably did something to make the file seem like it was deleted: for instance, deleting the file himself, or attempting a System Restore to recover the file.

What Narkunas does not go on to explain is why, after users attempt a System Restore, the .PST file remains missing. The answer could perhaps imply that the file isn't really being backed up.

But based on the user's reports in the OneCare forum, it appeared he understood quite well where quarantined files were supposed to go, although the .PST file did not appear to be there at first. His System Restore attempt failed to recover the file, although rolling back the System Restore appeared to bring the .PST file back to visible status in the quarantine directory.

While this user's discovery may bring hope to many who have been unable for about two months to retrieve their lost .PST files, it isn't clear at present whether the scenarios of everyone whose .PST files remain lost are identical with his. However, based on some of their descriptions, it appears not all who lost .PST files attempted a System Restore. At least one other user tried rolling back a System Restore point, with no success.

One other user reports attempting a System Restore rollback, only to find more damage than was done before, including a mangling of his Documents and Settings folder, and an amalgam of several smaller files into one big file. However, this could be an isolated incident.

Yesterday, a recently hired Microsoft anti-virus engineer found himself grappling with the public relations issues regarding OneCare, though he avoided the issue of the deletion bug whose history may extend before he was brought on-board.

Narkunas' post states that Microsoft rolled out its engine update with the quarantine bug fix on March 11, a few days ahead of schedule. She suggests that users sit tight and let their OneCare engines update themselves to incorporate the fix, although some users report their services are not being updated automatically, even when set to do so.


Viewpoint ribbon (small)

For decades, users of Windows and its predecessor, MS-DOS, have known that deleted files aren't really "wiped" - their directory entries are merely removed, and that it may be possible to re-instate the entries and recover the files. Undelete utilities for this purpose have been available for over a quarter-century.

Microsoft's contention today is that it was inaccurate for BetaNews and others to state that users' Outlook e-mail files were deleted, on the basis that at least for a handful, they were recovered through a process that appears to be a modern extrapolation of "undelete." However, if we take users at their word - and users are our readers, so we should trust them as we would want them to trust us - many of their Outlook files remain unrecoverable, either by themselves or with help from Microsoft customer support.

Thus it only makes sense to conclude that if a database file is missing, and genuine efforts by knowledgeable people are unsuccessful in recovering the file, then for all practical purposes, the file is deleted. Maybe it can be undeleted. For both the users' sake and Microsoft's, we hope it will.

But we genuinely believe you're smart enough to know when language is being touched up or terminology is being re-parsed in the interest of masking the true problem. You wouldn't vote for a political candidate who responds to inquiries by saying, "It depends on what you mean by 'improper;"' for much the same reasons, you're not going to read us if we start splitting hairs over what we should call a file when it's gone. The moment we start applying lexical varnish to depressing subjects and calling the happier, glossier version "accurate," is the moment we break our trust with you, and that we become as offensive to you as malware.

So no, we're not going to tell you, "This behavior is by design." We have so many more important things to do with the little time we have than to candy-coat reality. When this problem is solved, we'll be happy to report it. Until then, we stand by our story.

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By Stingray57

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 1:57 PM

HAHA - It's there.. You just can't find it.
OH and you have to be able to find a reputable program to recover it.. OMG Funny! and the average 'mom user' knows all about this. That's political BS.

OH OH and (Brain'iack) those undelete programs you refer to, those work great if you know exactly when the problem happens so you make sure nothing else gets written to the HD- And those programs typically want you to save the receovered data to a NEW DRIVE. God forbid something gets written in the same place the PST file used to be.Uh oh- missed that one moron. Oh my goodness - Did I defrag? CRAP.

MS's omnipotent approach to software and their OS sickens me. I would never want to solely dependent on ONECARE, WINNDOWS DEFENDER and MS FIREWALL to protect my machine. MS never looks down, except to see who they are stepping on...

Hey MS- you are showing you don't know it all and giving more and more people a reason to switch to Linux.

Score: 0

By Program86

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 10:27 AM

Would you expect anything less than complete idiocy from Microsoft?

Score: 0

By sophist_dreams

edited Mar 18, 2007 - 9:20 AM

Oh My God, MSN speaks and all the lemmings accept as fact their pronouncement. "We really didn't lose your files, we just can't find them". Now the lemmings are jumping up and down crying in joy, "See, we have been telling you all along that it's never been Microsoft's fault."

Let me ask the lemmings a question.

If one of you gave me $1,000 to keep for you, then came back to get it and I told you I didn't have it. But instead told you, "wait I really didn't spend or lose it, I just can't find it so it's ok". You would be singing the same praises about me right?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 18, 2007 - 7:49 PM

No, we'd still think you're full of it.

Of course it's Microsoft's fault. I don't think *anyone* questions that. What's being mis-reported is that the file is being deleted, which is highly inaccurate. The file is placed in quarantine. It's still there, still recoverable, therefore, *not* deleted.

You do understand the concept of deletion, don't you? Did they cover that on South Park?

Score: 0

By sophist_dreams

edited Mar 18, 2007 - 8:32 PM

PC_Fool opines again. Of course he hasn't said anything that isn't a regurgitation of Microsoft BS.

I am sure those who cannot recover their files after two months don't know the semantic difference you are trying to point out between quarantined, lost and deleted; their files are gone whatever you call it and it seems they can't be recovered.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Mar 19, 2007 - 9:00 AM

am sure those who cannot recover their files after two months don't know the semantic difference you are trying to point out between quarantined, lost and deleted; their files are gone whatever you call it and it seems they can't be recovered.

Tell me, if it's deleted and they call support, can support tell them how to get it back in three mouse clicks?

How about if it's just quarantined?

See the difference, genius?

Score: 0

By Silentmaster101

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 7:51 AM

very creative, you think all day on that?

Score: 0

By Arakiel

posted Mar 18, 2007 - 4:26 PM

Yes it's much easier to believe MS is outright lying then to try and understand the concept of quarantine. Speaking of lemmings, you speak like a true microsoft bashing lemming.

Score: 0

By sophist_dreams

edited Mar 18, 2007 - 8:30 PM

What I said to PC_Fool applies to you.

Score: 0

By Arakiel

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 10:46 AM

Very creative. So that's a "no" to bothering to understand the concept of quarantine then? Nice to see that mindless bashing is still in vogue.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 9:00 AM

Perhaps you should go back to watching South Park, perhaps the Hardly Boys can give you that raging clue you need.

Score: 0

By Avion Airplane

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 10:22 AM

still a being a Bully ?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 11:35 AM

Still being a moron?

Score: 0

By dhjdhj

posted Mar 17, 2007 - 4:14 PM

"A difference that makes no difference is no difference"

--- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Score: 0

By jchandler16

posted Mar 17, 2007 - 7:52 AM

Oh dear its all become a bit of a mess with Microsoft's Onecare product. Its safe to say they may need to rethink how the software works.

Josh Chandler
http://www.techoriphic.com

Score: 0

By THZGryphon

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 5:35 PM

Works great for me.

Score: 0

By zridling

edited Mar 16, 2007 - 11:33 PM

Try installing Office 2007 and UAC pops up and says it's not a trusted vendor! It's happened to me twice now. Scott's 'viewpoint' qualifier is an accurate correction to Microsoft's spin in this instance. If the file ain't there, something deleted it, and given how deeply buried your PST file is, it's highly unlikely anyone would accidently delete it, much less purposely.

Face it, that PST file is about the most important file Outlook users have, and for Microsoft to go futzing with it in any way is just crazy. Let's just say that no one is going to pay $40 for Onecare. Ever.

Score: 0

By Arakiel

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 10:36 PM

I don't understand the "Viewpoint" on this article, it's very misleading, furthering the misinformation that sites like Betanews have propagated. The file wasn't deleted as Scott outright tries to say in his viewpoint, it was quarantined as any decent AV would do. It's only then when the user panics and instead of removing the file from quarantine they go and do something stupid (such as delete it or run system restore) that the file becomes unrecoverable. OneCare isn't deleting the file, the users are. Nice "objective" journalism.

Score: 0

By sophist_dreams

posted Mar 18, 2007 - 9:08 AM

Excuse me? A file that can't be found has been deleted. If System Restore cannot recover a file it has been deleted. Your last sentence is almost beyond commenting on, but it may be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read in these forums.

Score: 0

By Silentmaster101

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 7:55 AM

what he is saying is that the file goes into quarantine, and then the user deltes it expecting to only take the virus, and then cry when their entire file is deleted. thus their fault...

at least that what i get out of the article.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 18, 2007 - 7:45 PM

Since when is system restore a file recovery app?

Duhhrrr....

Score: 0

By Arakiel

posted Mar 18, 2007 - 4:24 PM

You don't understand the concept of "quarantine" do you. No, don't bother to answer, it wasn't a question...idiot.

Score: 0

By ds0934

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 7:45 PM

LOL - this is exact explanation my kids give me every morning: I didn't lose it - I just can't find it!

Score: 0

By Floodland

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 6:44 PM

Blah blah blah.. Microsoft quarentined (wiped from user point of view)their *OWN* programs databases and they still dare to claim the reports are 'Not Accurate'. The databases are put aside (not accesible), your tech support is unable not only to fix the "issue" but to figure out what happenned.
Microsoft, YOU are not accurate, your software is flawed at the point the information of your customers is at risk, and your employees make statements like "not that the files are deleted, just that they can't find them.". Now, I wish to know why people pay for your products if they can't get minimal support to fix a (huge) problem like this... Not only it happenned, but is a repeated problem. A previous beta already did something like that, what's going on?

Score: 0

By THZGryphon

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 8:14 PM

Yeah, they aren't supporting this product at all and haven't announced a fix coming. Similar problems have only ever plagued OneCare!

Score: 0

By THZGryphon

edited Mar 16, 2007 - 5:20 PM

Wow, what knowledgeable editors BetaNews has. That viewpoint banner should be at the top of every BetaNews article. All the loaded article titles and bias, so credible.

Score: 0

By marrix

posted Mar 17, 2007 - 10:01 AM

One Care is so brilliant an app I used it for one day.
And, anyone who disses MS needs a severe spanking.
Seriously, my friends, I used the app for about 2 hours before doing a total reformat. Junk! Junk! Junk!
'N I worship the ground Gates walks on, brothers' this man is the new Jesus, if not GOD Himself!

Score: 0

By THZGryphon

edited Mar 18, 2007 - 8:17 PM

Whoa, a format after using OneCare? Sounds like pebkac or bs to me.

Score: 0

By Silentmaster101

posted Mar 19, 2007 - 7:57 AM

well in some extreme cases it is better to reformat then to just remove aol or roxio software, maybe onecare is just as messed up, although HAVING to reformat may be a bit of a stretch.

Score: 0

By SMFulton3

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 6:26 PM

THZGryphon, if you're accusing me of having a bias in favor of the reader...then I will just have to concur.

-SF3

Score: 0

By Niro

posted Mar 17, 2007 - 1:06 PM

Your viewpoint on that article is so innacurate it should be discussed in journalism classes on how not to do journalism.

I mean...if you don't know the difference between "recycle bin", "quarantine", and "delete"...then maybe you shouldn't write an article that tries to tell readers what an antivirus is doing.

Score: 0

By smarterthanyou

posted Mar 18, 2007 - 4:12 AM

It doesn't matter if OneCare is deleting or simply hiding the Outlook .PST file. This file should not be disappearing because of a simple virus scan under any circumstances. Your viewpoint is the most inaccurate of all.

Score: 0

By Niro

edited Mar 18, 2007 - 10:26 PM

Yes...the "press" (being betanews in this case) reporting that your outlook file has been DELETED and unrecovarable when it's actually in quarantine, is more accurate then my viewpoint of saying your outlook file is not deleted, that it's in fact in quarantine, and very recoverable. I see your point there, good one.

BTW...I'm not saying it's ok that OneCare did that...I'm just saying the viewpoint of an article that is viewable to the public should not send out misinformation. The funny thing is in the viewpoint it basically says "well some our readers our saying it, therefore it must be true and MS is lying". That's just pure press genious right there.

Score: 0

By THZGryphon

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 8:08 PM

Ok Dan Rather, that sounds great. Slanderous news coverage is always an excellent read.

Score: 0

By id242

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 7:32 PM

I guess sarcasm does not translate too well over the internet.

Score: 0

By robmanic44

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 4:24 PM

I'm running Vista Ultimate and currently Windows Live is down. I've attempted to access it on three different browsers and it's nowhere to be found. Strange days.

Score: 0

By id242

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 5:14 PM

"I'm running Vista Ultimate and currently Windows Live is down. I've attempted to access it on three different browsers and it's nowhere to be found. Strange days."

it was down for several people all today, not just you and your couple of computers.

i fail to see how your comment is relevant to this story.

Score: 0

By robmanic44

posted Mar 20, 2007 - 2:32 PM

I currently run a server with 3.5 petobytes of storage supporting 6 workstations. How are your couple of computers running. That's a home system by the way.

Score: 0

By SMFulton3

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 6:22 PM

Forgive me, but I thought robmanic44's comment to be quite appropriate and on-topic. OneCare is a Windows Live service. If someone's having trouble with it, people should know about it.

-SF3

Score: 0

By id242

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 7:45 PM

From http://bink.nu/Article9720.bink

"The Windows Live Messenger service was reportedly inaccessible by various users around the world. Reports are also prevalent of other Windows Live ID-supported sites not functioning, such as Hotmail, MSN Web Messenger and Microsoft Connect."

..

I still fail to see how Windows Live ID-supported websites have anything to do with the application, "LiveOneCare", which does not require you to be connected to the Internet in order for it to be used.

Please educate me on how this is "quite appropriate and on-topic" with your current article.

Score: 0

By SMFulton3

posted Mar 16, 2007 - 8:16 PM

When Microsoft puts its "Live" umbrella brand around several services, sometimes that means they're in the same division of the company, sometimes it doesn't (e.g., ActiveX). Sometimes it takes an historian to determine whether an umbrella brand accurately applied, years after the fact. But for now, Microsoft tells me that Live Services are Live Services.

So unless that's, to coin a phrase, "inaccurate," I would say it's on topic.

-SF3

Score: 0

By id242

posted Mar 17, 2007 - 12:26 AM

Then with your stated mentality, anything related to Microsoft can be posted in any of your Microsoft articles.

So, lets say you post a topic about Microsoft Word, anyone else can post about issues relating the Microsoft Flight Simulator and it will still remain relevant, and "quite appropriate and on-topic".

Sure, that makes sense.

Score: 0

By Niro

posted Mar 17, 2007 - 1:08 PM

And these are the people posting articles on betanews. ;/

It's a wonder why this site has been slowly getting worse and worse.;/

Score: 0

By drmessano

posted Mar 18, 2007 - 1:44 AM

No kidding..

Score: 0