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Microsoft Closes Vista Upgrade Loophole

By Ed Oswald, BetaNews

January 29, 2007, 3:21 PM

Many computer users prefer to install their operating system "clean" by simply using their old Windows disc to verify they own a copy of the software. However, that appears to no longer be possible using an Upgrade version of Windows Vista.

The Redmond company has apparently taken out the option to do so from upgrade versions of its new operating system, meaning a user would need to purchase a full copy of the OS in order to perform a clean installation. Upgrade discs would only work if a copy of either Windows 2000 or XP is already on the system.

While this is not a problem for most customers, it is sure to anger many in the enthusiast community. Installing clean is probably the best option for those looking to gain the biggest performance increases from a new operating system.

It is unclear as to why Microsoft has made this move, although it has not stopped watchers of the company from commenting on it. "It's not any of our right to abuse a system that was designed to make it easier for people who were upgrading existing installations," Windows enthusiast Robert McLaws wrote for Windows-Now.com.

McLaws offered a possible explanation: with the wide availability of pirated copies of both Windows XP and 2000 on file-sharing sites, the company may have considered this method unreliable to verify whether consumers actually own a copy of the software.

While Microsoft does have Windows Geniune Advantage to do just that, that method only works with the OS installed on the computer and is not tied to the actual physical CD or DVD.

So far, Microsoft has not commented publicly on the situation. However, for those still looking for an inexpensive way to upgrade to Vista in this manner, the advent of OEM software sales of the OS may be the way to go.

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By nisa17

posted Apr 17, 2008 - 12:28 AM

i have a problem...i have installed window vista without a key product .(i lent somebody)
then i decided to buY the upgrade version of vista home edition.(is that possible??)
Then, is the vista upgrade version have a new product key???

Score: 0

By kooKyGuY

edited Feb 4, 2007 - 9:32 PM

I purchased the Upgrade Version of Vista Ultimate and I fail to see what the big deal it. If I ever need to reinstall it I can just install my legal Windows 2000 or XP versions that I do not use anymore and then install Vista. All it does is make you install it as an upgrade, which is why it's called an upgrade. I was kind of surprised that they let us install the XP upgrade, almost just as we did the full version. I can still do a "clean" install, but I have to do it from a previous version of Windows is all.

Score: 0

By Leahcim

posted Feb 2, 2007 - 1:38 PM

Get Vista upgrade, never pay full price

By Brian Livingston

Many people are upset by the fact that the economical, "upgrade" version of Vista won't accept a Windows XP or Windows 2000 CD-ROM as proof of ownership. Vista Upgrade is said to install only to a hard disk that already has XP or 2000 already on it.

But I've tested a method that allows you to clean-install the Vista upgrade version on any hard drive, with no prior XP or W2K installation — or even a CD — required.

Save by avoiding the 'full' version

Windows Vista, in my opinion, is a big improvement over Windows XP in many ways. But the new operating system is distinctly overpriced.

The list price of the "full" (not "upgrade") version of the most expensive edition, Vista Ultimate, is $399.95 USD, with a street price around $380. That gold-plated retail figure is only possible because Microsoft long ago achieved monopoly pricing power in the PC operating system market.

Most computer users would prefer to keep using an older version of Windows, such as XP, rather than paying the inflated prices for the "full" version of Vista. To encourage switching to a new OS, Microsoft has historically offered a lower, "upgrade" price to people who can prove that they've previously purchased an older copy of Windows.

The difference between Vista's full and upgrade prices can be substantial. Based on the asking prices shown at Shopping.com on Jan. 31 — the day after the consumer version of Vista became available — the four most popular Vista versions will set you back approximately as follows:

Edition Full version Upgrade version
Vista Home Basic $192 $100 ($92 less)
Vista Home Premium $228 $156 ($72 less)
Vista Business $285 $192 ($93 less)
Vista Ultimate $380 $225 ($155 less)

The upgrade versions of Vista have street prices that are 32% to 48% cheaper than the full versions. If you're truly installing Vista over an old instance of XP or W2K, the upgrade version of Vista will find the older OS on your hard drive and install without question. The problem is that Vista, unlike every version of Windows in the past, doesn't let you insert a physical disc from an older operating system as evidence of your previous purchase.

Vista has an undocumented feature, however, that actually allows you to "clean install" Vista to a hard disk that has no prior copy of XP or W2K.

Use Vista's 'upgrade' version to clean-install

The secret is that the setup program in Vista's upgrade version will accept an installed copy of XP, W2K, or an unactivated copy of Vista itself as evidence of a previous installation.

This enables you to "clean install" an upgrade version of Vista to any formatted or unformatted hard drive, which is usually the preferred method when installing any new operating system. You must, in essence, install Vista twice to take advantage of this trick. But Vista installs much faster than XP, so it's quicker than installing XP followed by Vista to get the upgrade price.

Before you install Vista on a machine that you don't know is 100% compatible, you should run Microsoft's free Upgrade Advisor. This program — which operates only on 32-bit versions of XP and Vista (plus Vista Enterprise) — reports to you on any hardware or software it finds that may be incompatible with Vista. See Microsoft's Upgrade Advisor page.

Also, to see which flavors of XP Home, XP Pro, and 2000 officially support in-place installs and clean installs of the different Vista editions, see Microsoft's upgrade paths page.

Here's a simplified overview of the steps that are required to clean-install the upgrade version of Vista:

Step 1. Boot the PC from the Vista DVD.

Step 2. Select "Install Now," but do not enter the Product Key from the Vista packaging. Leave the input box blank. Also, turn off the option Automatically activate Windows when I'm online. In the next dialog box that appears, confirm that you really do want to install Vista without entering a Product Key.

Step 3. Correctly indicate the version of Vista that you're installing: Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, or Ultimate.

Step 4. Select the "Custom (Advanced)" install, not the "Upgrade" install.

Step 5. Vista copies files at length and reboots itself one or more times. Wait for the install to complete. At this point, you might think that you could "activate" Vista, but you can't. That's because you haven't installed the Vista upgrade yet. To do that, run the DVD's setup.exe program again, but this time from the Vista desktop. The easiest way to start setup again is to eject and then reinsert the DVD.

Step 6. Click "Install Now." Select Do not get the latest updates for installation. (You can check for these updates later.)

Step 7. This time, do enter the Product Key from the Vista packaging. Once again, turn off the option Automatically activate Windows when I'm online.

Step 8. On this second install, make sure to select "Upgrade," not "Custom (Advanced)." You're not doing a clean install now, you're upgrading to Vista.

Step 9. Wait while Vista copies files and reboots itself. No user interaction is required. Do not boot from the DVD when asked if you'd like to do so. Instead, wait a few seconds and the setup process will continue on its way. Some DOS-like, character-mode menus will appear, but don't interact with them. After a few seconds, the correct choice will run for you automatically.

Step 10. After you click a button labeled Start in the Thank You dialog box, Vista's login screen will eventually appear. Enter the username and password that you selected during the first install. You're done upgrading to Vista.

Step 11. Within 30 days, you must "activate" your copy of Vista or it'll lose functionality. To activate Vista, click Show more details in the Welcome Center that automatically displays upon each boot-up, then click Activate Windows now. If you've dismissed the Welcome Center, access the correct dialog box by clicking Start, Control Panel, System & Maintenance, System. If you purchased a legitimate copy of Vista, it should quickly activate over the Internet. (You can instead activate by calling Microsoft on the phone, which avoids your PC exchanging information with Microsoft's server.)

I'm not going into detail today on the merits of buying Vista at retail instead of buying a cheaper OEM copy. (The OEM offerings don't entitle you to call Microsoft for support, while the retail packages do.) Also, I'm not touching here on the least-expensive way to buy Vista, which is to take advantage of Microsoft's "educational" rate. I'll describe both of these topics in next week's newsletter.

Why does Vista's secret setup exist?

It's reasonable for us to ask ourselves whether buying an upgrade version of Vista, and then installing it to an empty hard disk that contains no previous version of Windows, is ethical.

I believe it is. Microsoft itself created the upgrade process. The company designed Vista to support upgrading it over a previously installed copy of XP, W2K Pro, or Vista itself. This isn't a black-hat hacker exploit. It's something that's been deliberately programmed into the approved setup routine.

Microsoft spent years developing and testing Vista. This upgrade trick must have been known to many, many people within the development team. Either Microsoft planned this upgrade path all along, knowing that computer magazines and newsletters (like this one) would widely publicize a way to "save money buying Vista." Or else some highly placed coders within the Vista development team decided that Vista's "full" price was too high and that no one should ever have to pay it. In either case, Vista's setup.exe is Microsoft's official install routine, and I see no problem with using it exactly as it was designed.

We should also think about whether instances of Vista that were installed using the clean-install method will continue to operate. I believe that this method will continue to be present in Vista DVDs at least until Microsoft begins distributing the Service Pack 1 edition of Vista around fall 2007. Changing the routine in the millions of DVDs that are now in circulation would simply be too wrenching. And trying to remotely disable instances of Vista that were clean-installed — even if it were technically possible to distinguish them — would generate too many tech-support calls and too much ill will to make it worthwhile.

Installing the upgrade version of Vista, but not installing over an existing instance of XP or W2K, probably violates the Vista EULA (end-user license agreement). If you're a business executive, I wouldn't recommend that you flout any Windows license provisions just to save money.

If you're strictly a home user, contributing editor Susan Bradley points out that Microsoft's so-called Vista Family Discount (VFD) is an economical package that avoids any license issues. If you buy a retail copy of Vista Ultimate, MS lets you upgrade up to two additional PCs to Vista Home Premium for $50 each. For example, if you buy the upgrade version of Ultimate for $225, the grand total after you add two Home Premiums is $335. That's about $133 less than buying three upgrade versions of Home Premium. Details are at Microsoft's VFD page.

Microsoft did revise a Knowledge Base article, number 930985, on Jan. 31 that obliquely refers to the upgrade situation. It simply states that an upgrade version of Vista can't perform a clean install when a PC is booted from the Vista DVD. A clean install will only work, the document says, when the Vista setup is run from within an older version of Windows (or if a full version of Vista is being used).

This article doesn't at all deal with the fact that the Vista upgrade version will in fact clean-install using the steps described above. It'll be interesting to see whether MS ever explains why these steps were programmed in.

Personally, I consider Vista's ability to upgrade over itself to be Digital Rights Management that actually benefits consumers. It's almost cosmic justice.

I invite my readers to test Vista's undocumented clean-install method for themselves. There certainly must be aspects of this setup routine that I haven't yet discovered. I'll print the best findings from those sent in via our contact page. You'll receive a gift certificate for a book, CD, or DVD of your choice if you're the first to send in a tip that I print.

I'd like to thank my co-author of Windows Vista Secrets, Paul Thurrott, for his research help in bringing the clean-install method to light.

Score: 0

By bugmenot

posted Feb 2, 2007 - 2:32 AM

Oh wow, Microsoft screw its customers once more, and yet, they just sit back and take it all down. When will they stand up for themselves and demand changes?

Score: 0

By Carlospr

posted Jan 31, 2007 - 8:15 PM

Like music DRM the new MS policy for Vista prejudices only the users that pay for the software... It's just sad that such big company can't get the entire picture.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 9:29 AM

Well seeing as you can do a clean install from an upgrade disc (just you have to do it within an existing version of Windows) I don't see what the problem is.

Not only that, you can simply buy the "full" version anyway (which is what you're supposed to be doing) which will let you do it.

Stop being a cheapskate and get the right version.

Score: 0

By Carlospr

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 2:21 PM

I own XP Home. If I buy a new HD (for any reason) and if I need to install Vista upgrade again I'll have to install XP first (or Vista twice) to get it working again. XP upgrade requires just the 98/Me CD.

Finally, reading what you wrote makes me think that money is not a problem for you but that's not a general rule. Good for you.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 2, 2007 - 11:26 AM

Well if money is a problem you should really be thinking about why you are getting Vista upgrade in the first place. Do you REALLY need it? If you do, you have to know the entire pitfalls and perils. This "upgrade can't boot to clean-install" thing really is minor and can be sidestepped by buying either the cheaper OEM or the "full" version.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 5:21 PM

No, you use the Vista tools (System Image) to back up your system and then restore it on your new hard drive.

Helps if ya know what yer talking about...

Score: 0

By Carlospr

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 10:32 PM

Come on PC_Tool you can do better than tell the obvious.

In addition, we're talking about a feature that was removed from Vista upgrade not ways to restore a broken system.

It seems that you don't care but I do.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 2, 2007 - 11:28 AM

If your really care, then buy the OEM or "full" version. You're just sounding stubborn when the solution is already out there!

Score: 0

By Carlospr

posted Feb 3, 2007 - 1:22 PM

OK testman. There's a solution but that's not my point. I'll be forced to buy a full when I have the right to get the upgrade. That's not right. That's all.

Score: 0

By Psychlone

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 11:17 AM

I can see an issue here:
Many times when using the Repair Install of XP, it won't see that there's already an install of XP to repair, and leaves you hanging...so what happens when Vista can't see the MFT (or whatever is holding up the XP repair installs) - you won't be able to install your brand new Vista...that's what!

This may make sense to them because of the pirated copies of XP floating around out there, but for those of us who've actually purchased their products, I feel it's US who's being reprimanded...

So, get the FULL VERSION seems to be the common denominator throughout this thread...what it really comes down to is 'spend more money on the OS and it will *let* you do a clean install' - so if there's a REPAIR INSTALL on Vista at all, is it going to have the same problem???

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 11:46 AM

Vista has a repair console, and from what I can tell it's quite good.

Ya know...not to mention the enhanced disk imaging and backup capabilities of Vista.

Oh crap, I mentioned them.

Score: 0

By paulm

edited Jan 31, 2007 - 4:36 PM

Upgrade workaround...

1. Boot with the Windows Vista Upgrade DVD.

2. Click "Install Now."

3. Do not enter a Product Key When prompted.

4. When prompted, select the Vista product edition that you do have.

6. Install Vista normally.

7. Once the install is complete, restart the DVD-based Setup from within Windows Vista. Perform an in-place upgrade.

8. Enter your Product Key when prompted.

*Edit* Sorry 'TomeOne', the page you link to has the same info as I found on this issue, and your URL is graphical for those that like (need?) pictures. ;-

Score: 0

By nisa17

edited Apr 16, 2008 - 11:54 PM

i have a problem...i have install the vista without the product key,but it is running out of time...(i lent somebody).so then, i decided to buy the vista upgrade..is it ok??
does the vista upgrade have new product key???

Score: 0

By Maymne

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 4:34 PM

If this works, and you can use Vista to upgrade itself, then they've removed the only legitimate reason for this change. You don't actually need a prior product, and all this does is add to the annoyance. Great. Same loophole they've always had in their upgrades, which is nice, but the change is annoying.

Score: 0

By TomeOne

posted Jan 31, 2007 - 10:32 AM

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5932

Score: 0

By Banquo

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:35 PM

Does Betanews have moderators? This site is becoming unusable with every article full of childish trolling and hateful attacks on other members. Seriously, can we clean the place up or at least move to a system like OSNews uses where the trash can be moderated down by other members.

Back to Vista, I see nothing wrong with this. It is what an upgrade is supposed to do. If you need to install on an empty hard drive you really should be buying the full version.

Score: 0

By Arakiel

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 5:53 PM

I agree, they really need to implement the score system for registered users so we can mod down the cruft. It's getting to the point where I come here only for comic relief or to point and laugh....or both.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 5:37 PM

The look-alike names are getting a tad ridiculous.

But hey...free speech, even for idiots, right?

Score: 0

By st0mp

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 4:31 PM

Well this had me worried bad. i just bought xp MCE on 12/12. (bought it for the free vista upgrade.)its for a new system build. i have not even completed my build yet.
so you could imagine when i read this i was really ticked off. i was thinking i would have to sit though 2 installs of windows when i complete my system.
anyway i just got off the phone with M$ and they told me that is only true on the home basic. the premium and the ultimate versions will upgrade with a view of the cd. like the older ones.
P.S. probably should have pointed that out in the main article.
just hope i talked to somebody @ M$ that really knows and not a poser

Score: 0

By smarterthanyou

posted Jan 31, 2007 - 5:19 AM

Not true. I just bought an upgrade of Vista Ultimate. Guess what? If you boot directly from the DVD, after you enter your product key and get to the disk partitioning screen Vista Ultimate pops up a message stating that in order to use the upgrade product key you have to start the installation from within your previous OS.

Score: 0

By glenheitman

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 2:36 PM

What does upgrade mean to you? Like most people, I have several business applications, games, utilities, and others. I only have one that’s an original software package and it's days are numbered. The remainders are upgrades. I have found upgrade software requiring the original software to be installed extremely unreliable. Normally this kind of software runs slower, requires more hard drive space, is buggy, and doesn't clean up the registry and the hard drive file system. Now imagine your going to upgrade Windows XP with all of your applications installed. What would be required of Vista to accomplish such a massive task? In my opinion, it’s a nightmare about to unfold not only for the customer but for Microsoft as well. Let’s assume for a moment, that Microsoft required all OS upgrades have the previous version install. So what you would have to do is install MS 3.x than 97 than 98 than Me than 2000 than XP than Vista. I don't think so!

Some have pointed out the availability of Vista OEM, which can be installed from starch. However, where did Microsoft support go? You have none! You are your own support.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Feb 1, 2007 - 9:23 AM

You seem to forget that you can buy the "full" version, which lets you boot to do clean installs.

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 2:44 PM

You can do a clean install with the Vista upgrade. It moves the old installation to a folder where you can delete it later if you wish.

Score: 0

By Dev3lop3

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:13 PM

Not always.

Score: 0

By dan-0

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 1:47 PM

Im not the biggest fan of microsoft, but if it hasn't occured to you before you make some rant comment about how microsoft has infringed on your 'rights', remember that they are a company. A company that makes and sells products for profit. If you do not like their product, do not buy it. Lenovo and other computer manufactures do sell computers with Linux and Apple still sells Macs. I have used the loophole before and it is convenient, but not necessary.

Score: 0

By Austin814

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 1:29 PM

The reason Vista requires the previous OS to be installed AND activated is so that Vista confirms its genuine THEN it makes the previous OS unable to be validated in the future. I wonder what happens if you have a Corp version of XP, and upgrade to Vista, does it make all the systems that used the Corp key invalid? Can you not use the Corp key in the future? What about if you want to do a fresh install in the future and then cant activate XP because its already been locked the first time Vista was installed. One thing is for sure, I am not jumping on the Vista boat as fast as I jumped on the 98, 2K and XP boats. There are too many hidden "features" in Vista.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 1:42 PM

THEN it makes the previous OS unable to be validated in the future

Where are you getting this information? I've not seen anything about it deactivating your previous installation.

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 2:10 PM

http://www.tomcoyote.org...alidates-your-xp-key/74/

There is the source of the story. I have not seen any official word from Microsoft though.

The license has always been this way, they are just enforcing it now. It should be common sense. If you upgrade your previous version of Windows to a newer one, that prevous version is no longer valid. People are used to buying upgrades and then using their previous version on another computer or even dual booting with it. You are not allowed to do this.

"I wonder what happens if you have a Corp version of XP, and upgrade to Vista, does it make all the systems that used the Corp key invalid?"

I am not certain how this works but I wouldn't think VLK versions would be eligible. The VLK versions are not for sale to regular consumers. Companies that have VLK licenses would be using Vista Enterprise when they upgrade. Again I'm not sure what the rules are there though.

"What about if you want to do a fresh install in the future and then cant activate XP because its already been locked the first time Vista was installed."

I have not seen any information saying that XP has to be activated. I do know for a fact that you can use a Windows 2000 installation with the Vista upgrade and it has no activation, so I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that XP must be activated. I would also think that you could simply use your existing Vista installation when you need to reinstall it.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 3:44 PM

If you upgrade your previous version of Windows to a newer one, that prevous version is no longer valid.

Makes sense.

The discount is basically a fraction of the purchase price of the product it's replacing. Keyword: Replacing.

Never even thought of doing that though... I suppose if you've got older hardware lying around, but, eh...that's what Linux is for. :p

Score: 0

By SkyWarpTFB

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 10:43 AM

Personally I like sitting through installs it's fun to me so that way I'd get to sit through 2 instead of just 1 =) I can't upgrade to vista anyway because I'm legally blind and my sreenreading / magnifcation software (zoomText 9.04) doesn't support vista so for me it's a mute point ether way. Happy upgrading =)

SkyWarpTFB =)

Score: 0

By linkdup

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 10:22 AM

people are pretty dumb on this site.

... that is all

Score: 0

By deminicus

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 2:00 PM

i award you no points....

Score: 0

By Arakiel

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 12:25 PM

While I can appreciate what would drive you to say something that useless, wouldn't it be better to try to educate people then just tell them they are dumb? A futile effort most likely, but at least you don't end up looking just as dumb.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 10:48 AM

I don't follow...

Could you elaborate?

Do you have a newsletter I could subscribe to describing the situation in detail?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 9:28 AM

This is ridiculous, guys. Seriously.

It's an upgrade. It's sole purpose is to upgrade an existing system. It was *never* intended to be a replacement for a full-retail or OEM install.

Now, I understand that it was possible in the past. The key there is that while it was possible, it was not the intended purpose. As the headline states, it was a loophole. Now it's fixed.

All it means is that the people who were buying the "upgrade" to do full installs must now purchase the version (full or OEM) that they *should* have been purchasing all along or deal with first installing their previous OS.

There's no big conspiracy. There's no added inconvenience (when used as intended).

The only people this negatively affects are those who were using the upgrade versions in some other way than how it was intended to be used...and for some reason now think they have some actual right to use it in that way.

If you plan to upgrade an existing install, buy the upgrade. It's cheaper and less hassle, and once it verifies your old install, you can choose to blow it away and do a clean install.

If you plan on installing this on systems with no installed OS, buy the OEM or retail.

It's really that simple. All the pissing and moaning in the world does not alter the fact that the upgrade version was never intend to be used as a stand-alone install disc.

Score: 0

By Austin814

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 9:59 AM

You cant call it a "loophole" when it was designed that way. They didnt close a loophope they altered functionality. The sequence designed by MS was that the installation asked for the previus OS CD, then asked for the current one and continued. Thats not a loophole. Thats a design.

The facts are before all you needed was the OS CD, now you have to install the OS first then upgrade. Change of function, not a close of loophole.

:Edit:
This was not only XP, you could do a full install with an upgrade disk for 98, ME and 2K as well by only providing the previous OS CD or with 98, Windows 95 install floppies. I believe it required disks 1, 2 and 6 or something like that.

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 2:07 PM

The loophole was that people could take advantage of that design to use pirated CDs or to continue using their old version of Windows on another PC.

Score: 0

By Dev3lop3

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:15 PM

Thanks MR. I can repeat the Article like a parrot. LOL@retard

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:25 PM

Your trolling is weak.

Score: 0

By Super_Sarge

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 11:11 AM

I just upgraded to Office 2007. I first removed office 2003. I then pointed Office 2007 to the CD of 2003 which was also a upgrade.

So it looks like they only closed this function in Vista and not Office 2007

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 10:15 AM

I fail to see your point. (unless it was merely to nit-pick...)

Yes, it was designed in. Yes, it was functional.

The intent was the same, but it was easier to use the upgrade CD to do a full install on a clean system, in spite of the CD's intended purpose.

Call it a loophole, call it a rhino. I couldn't care less, it does nothing to diminish the point I made.

BTW: I never said this was limited to XP.

Score: 0

By Neoprimal

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 5:19 AM

I don't get why people are complaining. What big 'upgrade' product has ever allowed a user to run it as a full installation? Sure, MS spoiled customers on this with XP, but how is it that they're 'screwing their customers' now with this path? I agree that it would have been great to allow the upgrade disks to work like the XP versions but come on people....this is a company and they're out there to make money like every other for-profit company out there. If you can't afford retail pricing then simply go the OEM/System Builder path....these disks are the same price as the upgrade disks and the only physical difference is that it's either/or, not both (either 32bit OR 64bit vs. both on the retail disk). In any case, I do believe it's too late now to do anything about it, as they have already shipped full copies with the same installers. Just go out there and buy an OEM disk, or the full - the prices are reasonable, imho - unless you're looking for something like Ultimate.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 9:04 AM

They got used to being able to cheat it with XP. Now they seem to think that because they could do it with XP, it's their God-given right to do it with Vista.

They are unbound by such minor things as logic and common sense.

Score: 0

By DudeBoyz

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 2:50 AM

Anyone who supports MS buy purchasing Vista deserves all the headaches they end up getting.

I tell you - MS is abusing their position and people are just following along like lemmings.

There is no reason to pull this sort of crap. There is no harm asking a user to type in a CD Key from XP and inserting the disk for verification.

Why should you have to have it installed and activated? Are they trying to make this so inconvenient that people will just say "Screw It" and go purchase the full-on retail version just to avoid the hassle?

They drive the price of the software up by splitting into a bunch of different iterations and charging more for XP equivalent functionality.

Why not make Vista Home Basic $49 and Vista Home Premium $79 or $99? Isn't XP Home $99 to upgrade?

How much money do these people want to squeeze out of consumers anyway? When are tens of billions of dollars not enough?

What if folks don't want Vista importing any stuff from XP? What if folks don't want all that legacy crap on their system? Who wants Vista relying on any content in the XP Registry or some such thing? Who wants obsolete drivers left installed? Isn't there enough potential problems with Vista already? Why even tempt fate by having ANY of that XP stuff around when you install Vista? Out of date DLL's, tons of legacy crap in the registry from XP? Isn't the registry fragile enough as it is? Why take the chance?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 9:00 AM

You utterly fail to realize how few folks this will actually affect. You also miss the entire point of it completely. I'll try and explain:

Pre-Vista: Anyone could buy an upgrade and download, borrow, or grab from work an ISO, and do a full clean install (Not an upgrade). That means that *anyone* who bought full retail just got suckered for being honest.

Post-Vista: Previous OS must be installed. Vista *still* allows a clean install. Stops people from being able to borrow, download or grab the ISO from work to install the upgrade.

Everyone got so used to being able to cheat the system they now somehow started to think it was their "right" to be able to do so.

Don't like the upgrade option? Buy OEM. Can't deal with the OEM restrictions? Buy upgrade. Can't handle either? Buy full retail. Got a problem with MS that logic and common sense can't touch? Go linux or Mac.

Simple. Easy. Legit.

Score: 0

By glock__17

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 3:10 AM

True, clean installs are always better..... I wonder how much of XP's files and structure will remain though.... with XP 64Bit Edition and Windows 2000, upgrade is possible but it requires a clean install! So either MS is not worrying about upgrade loopholes for these users or there IS an alternative to having the OS cleanly installed and using an upgrade copy of Vista....

"If you are currently using Windows 2000 Professional or Windows XP Professional x64, you are eligible for an upgrade copy to a corresponding or better edition of Windows Vista, but a clean install is required."

http://www.microsoft.com...grade/upgradepaths.mspx

So 64bit XP and 2000 users are the winners here.

Score: 0

By candlebox1369

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:21 AM

There are three types of installs:
(1) Upgrade - keeps everything...all your program files, documents etc
(2) "clean install" on an existing OS - keeps all files (i.e. documents) but programs have to be reinstalled
(3) A true clean install - need to boot from the cd, install drivers, programs, etc.

What the article is saying is that option (3) is no longer an option with vista upgrade discs. And as far as xp 64bit and 2000, the only option is #2 with upgrade discs.

My only concern with this move by Microsoft is what happens if Vista gets corrupted (doesn't boot) AND a vista repair doesn't solve the issue? Since you can't do a clean install, will these people just be screwed? Sucks.

Score: 0

By dzjepp

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 2:14 AM

Well then I have a question if you may indulge me...

How would I upgrade from my hp restore disc? Recently purchased an hp laptop and of course the pre-installed xp media center has a TON of s*** that I'd hate to have installed. Will any of this stuff disappear if I do a vista upgrade? I think I'll need to get an OEM version of xp before I decide on an upgrade path...

Score: 0

By testman

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 8:24 AM

Simply use your restore disc, then install Vista in XP, selecting the "clean install" option.

The only thing Microsoft have stopped is booting from disc to do a clean install with the upgrade keys. This is no real change, according to past EULAs, but they are enforcing it now.

If you buy the full or OEM versions with corresponding keys, this is allowed.

Score: 0

By zridling

edited Jan 29, 2007 - 11:56 PM

Same here. Microsoft has just gotten sad, and I used to be the biggest fanboy. Perfect time to make the move to Ubuntu or Freespire.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 8:52 AM

You're still the biggest fanboy. You've just switched camps.

Those darn personality flaws just follow you everywhere, don't they?

Score: 0

By Arakiel

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 9:47 AM

now now, at least he didn't claim that the Vista upgrade is a right wing conspiracy. That's new for him.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 10:20 AM

It's a corporation...obviously, it's a right-wing conspiracy.

Free-Market is nothing *but* right-wing conspiracy, isn't it?

/sarcasm

Score: 0

By odemata

edited Jan 29, 2007 - 9:01 PM

I dont know i rather just make a switch to osx, linux, this vista mess is just getting out of hand

Score: 0

By glock__17

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 8:59 PM

The upgrade path might seem a pain but if you own a legit version of XP its really worth the savings.

It's no big deal here is what I would do:

Install XP
Activate it. (this is mandatory)
Create a Ghost image of XP.
Burn the image to a DVD, store with your copy of Vista.

There, now when you need to re-install Vista after a hard disk crash or whatever, XP will only take about 10 minutes to install from a ghost image dump. Simple.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 8:26 PM

Here I thought I was one of the biggest MS lovers...(I do love their products, not their price hehehe). But then I see some people protecting this MS atrocity. Why the F does MS need Vista to be run from within a working XP partition? Yeah, it's hard for some people to locate their XP code... Still... Why not OPTIONALLY just ask for the XP product key during Vista installation and as soon as you get online, verify with MS dbase that indeed that XP serial belongs to YOU (hardware hash) on that SINGLE MACHINE and immediately proceeds to disable that key and replaces it with your ONLY legitimate license to Vista?

I'll tell you why, because MS wants to make it just a tiny bit harder to choose "Upgrade". They want you to choose "Retail"! So they give you another incentive. Logically speaking, even if you FORGOT your XP Key, but you are a REGISTERED CUSTOMER, you can just call MS and DEMAND that you can upgrade "somehow" since clearly they know you are legit on that specific hardware config (individual PC). In fact, I'm pretty sure the support guys will give you a nice method (probably a non-upgrade key but a real full-retail key) in such cases if you start to scream. Legally, I'm pretty sure they have to comply, especially being a monopoly walking on such a tight rope.

So I say: whatever. MS can play their games and we as consumers should play ours... OEM/Upgrade/"borrowed" KMS licenses from workplace..whatever. As always, if you got hookups, you got juice.

Score: 0

By testman

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 8:25 AM

Are you an idiot? This only applies to the upgrade keys, if you bought the full or OEM versions you can do so! They are only enforcing the EULA which was similar in past Windows!

Score: 0

By elftyrrell

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 8:39 PM

Amen. That was stated... well... extremely well.

Score: 0

By roj

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 7:39 PM

Not that I would ever run this Pig-In-A-Wig but anything in the Windows world that requires me to have the OS installed just so that it can do a "dirty upgrade" as opposed to a clean install immediately gets tossed as far as I'm concerned. The other solution was much more civil and customer oriented.

This is typical of the new face of MS and DRM in general:

Screw the customer.

Pure filth.

Score: 0

By elftyrrell

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 6:10 PM

I've heard (from MS support on MS groups) that this will also eventually apply to MS Office too. In the future you will need a validated copy of Office installed on your system before you can install an Office upgrade.

I'm not sure when this will take place though.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 8:30 PM

It states clearly in the following link (at the top) that ALL future MS products will be a PITA to pirate (using KMS, no more VLK, etc)..just like Vista will be.

http://www.microsoft.com...ources/vol/default.mspx

"In the future, Volume Activation technology will be used for all Microsoft products, but it is being introduced in Windows Vista."

Score: 0

By Dev3lop3

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:51 PM

Does it matter? There are at least 10 ways to crack vista already.... Unless you are a noob who cant handle the light technical aspect of the K. I should call this site BetaNoobs

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 6:13 PM

Oh look at me, I'm going to tell everyone that I know all about cracking and all that, and call them noobs even though it has nothing to do with the story at all. This is about enforcing their upgrade licenses not stopping piracy of Windows. Then I'll pull some number out of nowhere to back up my claims (at least 10 ways, BS) and finish off by insulting the name of the site itself.

Mission accomplished captain troll. Now go crawl back in your hole and let the adults talk.

Score: 0

By Dev3lop3

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:12 PM

LOL@frustrated noob. Take your obsessive ranting somewhere else troll. I have seen your posts and I am pretty sure you are 8 years old, if not... you are just a 34YR old with the mental capacity of an 8yr old. hahaha Dance for me you little monkey! haha

Score: 0

By Arakiel

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 6:00 PM

"LOL@frustrated noob. Take your obsessive ranting somewhere else troll. I have seen your posts and I am pretty sure you are 8 years old"

Usage of the term "noob" automatically puts YOU in the 8 year old category. Gratz on showing everyone what an immature fool you are. Lemme guess, your a script-kiddie that just got off mommies AOL account?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 5:34 PM

Dance for me you little monkey! haha

Isn't that one of PC Rat's fave lines?

Score: 0

By wincement

posted Jan 31, 2007 - 10:48 AM

OMG you're right. Minus the weird formatting, this guy sounds a lot like the computer rodent.

...

*cringes*

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

edited Jan 30, 2007 - 4:51 PM

You amuse me. Do it again.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:57 PM

No current cracks for Vista actually works for real.

Score: 0

By Dev3lop3

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:08 PM

LOL@betanoob

Do your research before you look stupid.. AGAIN. haha

Score: 0

By Dev3Iop3

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 4:46 PM

Sorry aredo, that was uncalled for. I just get these urges to go onto message boards and call people names because it makes me feel important. You see I have no life so I make up for it by being a douche bag on the internet.

Score: 0

By wincement

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 6:54 PM

Screen name look-alikes = lame

Score: 0

By Maymne

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 6:42 PM

How about the "Run 24 virtual machines and license your business Vista, then shut down the 24 machines for the next 170 days" crack/workaround?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 6:59 PM

This works until they block the key. Show me one that actually works and is easier than going legit.

Score: 0

By bugmenot

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 7:13 PM

I think the stop timer crack still works. It froze the count at 30 days. Don't know how long it going to last, don't care anyway. Got my Vista Business here, but not planning to install it any time soon.

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 7:16 PM

As long as you don't turn on automatic updates or need to pass WGA for any reason.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 7:59 PM

You'd have to be extremely technical to REALLY secure your machine (against the monthly slew of security holes) without Windows Updates. Clearly anyone who can achieve such feat deserves a free copy of Vista Ultimate. ;)

I MAY become such a person, if only for the intellectual challenge of it. ;) So every six months when you gotta re-do the crack, might as well reinstall a new fully-patched (slipstreamed) Vista. Could be cool, who knows. Could also be very annoying and not worth the effort...especially since Home Premium which will come on any half-decent PC has everything most people care for.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 8:51 AM

That's the trade-off. It's becoming harder and harder, and no longer really worth the effort.

It amazes me how many people can spend hours a week manually updating and securing a pirated system. You gotta wonder sometimes how $200 is worth all that extra work.

Score: 0

By Maymne

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 7:01 PM

I didn't say it was easy, he just said that none actually work. That one works, if in an unwieldy fashion. :)

Score: 0

By TomeOne

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:35 PM

Apparently if you don't put in a product key during install you can run the "upgrade" over an empty HD, then input it afterwards.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 8:02 PM

From posts I've seen on the matter - this won't work. When you input the key afterwards you get an error about having a bad key or somesuch.

Score: 0

By elftyrrell

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:44 PM

I don't have an upgrade disc... but from what I've heard it's only bootable to perform diagnostics. It apparently won't boot for installation purposes.

Score: 0

By dscates

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:28 PM

Just another way of Microsoft "Sticking it to the Man" Us!!!

Score: 0

By TomA102210

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 6:09 PM

"Just another way of Microsoft "Sticking it to the Man" Us!!!"
----------------------------------------------
You sound typical of victim mentality.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:31 PM

Whatever...

Score: 0

By Skyfrog

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:22 PM

People have been exploiting their upgrades for years. I remember with the MS-DOS upgrades (or perhaps Windows 3.1) you could simply create a blank text file with a certain name on the hard drive and it would pass the upgrade check. Later on they moved to having you insert the setup disks for a qualifying product, for example it would check your Windows 3.1 floppy disks to allow you to install the Windows 95 upgrade. It could not differentiate between genuine disks and pirated ones though and people took advantage of that. This is just another step to keep people from doing stuff like that anymore. Nothing to see here, move along.

Score: 0

By elftyrrell

edited Jan 29, 2007 - 5:23 PM

Why didn't microsoft check for the key from the XP disc when upgrading? If the XP key is pirated/banned by WGA, then Vista could shut down in 30 days or something.

This method of upgrading - requiring that the OS already be installed is insane. It essentially means that for all practical purposes it's a one use disc as who wants to install XP in two years from now when you reformat or buy a new hard drive?

It's funny how this comes out on the eve of release. The greed from Redmond never fails to amaze.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:28 PM

...

Because the key isn't on the disc?

...for all practical purposes it's a one use disc as who wants to install XP in two years from now when you reformat or buy a new hard drive?


It says that nowhere. One would assume, since it can detect an XP install that it can also probably detect a Vista install.

Score: 0

By elftyrrell

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 5:40 PM

Yes I'm sure it can detect a Vista install. But what if the hard drive that it was installed on fails.

That is one big reason people reinstall OS's.

It's an example of MS making life difficult for enthusiasts. Guess I'll just go for an OEM version.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 29, 2007 - 6:57 PM

lmao..

What if...

What if...

So the hard drive fails. An already bad situation become marginally worse.

OH NOES!!!

Enthusiasts? Yeah, We absolutely *dread* having to install operating systems...especially if it saves us money.

Are you really that clueless?

Score: 0

By zridling

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 12:01 AM

This just shows how stupid Microsoft is — it can't even read its own software! And yet tools continue to defend the company. You're so predictable it's a joke to read your posts.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 8:48 AM

Always nice to see another useless post from you. Ya know, it'd be nice someday to actually see you stick to the topic instead of this BS, but the second *anyone* calls you out, you start with your name calling and rhetoric.

And here we have yet another prime example...

Score: 0

By elftyrrell

edited Jan 29, 2007 - 7:41 PM

PC_Tool, you are right. You are always right. Because how could YOU be wrong. Discussing an issue with you is a waste of time. There is no way anyone could change your closed mind.

What if...

What if...

What if... someone else had a differing opinion. Your flimsy brittle little shell would shatter. Cue the tears...

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 8:46 AM

Then submit something other than a rant. Back it up. How about some facts?

No?

Of course not.

And how the hell would you know whether or not my mind can be changed through discussion? You don't discuss issues. You fabricate rationale and FUD to support your baseless bias against MS.

Score: 0

By wincement

posted Jan 30, 2007 - 7:00 PM

I never do this, but I just have to this time:<