Mozilla CEO: Apple Safari update is 'just wrong'

By Ed Oswald, BetaNews

March 24, 2008, 1:59 PM

Mozilla CEO John Lily says that Apple's decision to use its Windows software update application to push downloads of its Safari browser on iTunes users was bad for the security of the Web.

Lily's claim may strike some as a bit of sour grapes -- since Apple could viably eat into Mozilla's own market share of those looking for a alternative to Internet Explorer. However, he argues that it is a breach of user trust.

While a user has the option to uncheck the update, Lily argues that most will just press the "Install" button, which automatically installs Safari possibly without the user realizing what he or she has done.

"Apple has made it incredibly easy -- the default, even -- for users to install ride along software that they didn't ask for, and maybe didn't want," he says, "This is wrong, and borders on malware distribution practices."

Mozilla seems to view the practice as possibly making users leery of future upgrades, as they may install things that they didn't ask for. While he is not saying Safari is unsafe, he's rather saying a user who is more averse to updating could put themselves at risk for acquiring unwanted software.

Not everybody agrees with Lily though. Joe Wilcox, author of Microsoft Watch and one of the first to speak out about the practice, seems to have taken the side of Apple. He calls some of the controversy ridiculous.

"Apple's Safari distribution tactic is sheer brilliance. Apple is co-opting Microsoft's monopoly product. Other developers shipping updaters should follow Apple's approach," he argues, saying Microsoft has done much the same with some of its Live products.

"Apple is smart to leverage its iTunes installed base. One word describes this behavior: competition."

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By Galifray

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 10:49 AM

I think that Lily is being a major hypocrite about Apple and Safari. After all Firefox pushes updates the same way, just more intently. Every time I run Firefox, either 2.0.12 or Minefield, and there is an update to an extension or to the browser I get informed that an update is ready. And in some cases such as a new browser version, the update will be preloaded and I have to accept or reject the install.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 12:27 PM

lmao...

That's not hypocrisy, that's you not understanding the difference between an update and a new installation.

You installed the browser, you installed the extension.

It is *not* asking you to install something that isn't already installed.

Genius....

The Apple thing is completely different. it's asking if you want to "update" software that isn't installed. Firefox asks if you want to update *installed* extensions.

Score: 0

By Sven123456789

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 9:39 AM

I downloaded it. Tried it. It stunk. And i removed it. Than the next day after a reboot, i got the apple update msg with Safari avail. Thats how i found out about that. So i said, wtf, and deleted all apple crap on my pc, which i don't use anyway. So way to go apple.

Score: 0

By PatrynXX

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 2:31 AM

Groovy Apple Malware or Badware :P
whoops...

Score: 0

By sumone

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 2:14 AM

Apple should rename "Software Update" to "Apple Pack".

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 9:52 AM

That would probably be the proper, aka "kind" way to go about it, but where would the fun be in that? :p

Score: 0

By melkor

edited Mar 25, 2008 - 2:12 AM

I'm tempted to install Safari but my main attraction to FF is the extensibility, I have something on the order of 60 active extensions (and another 60 disabled that provide functionality I rarely use but may want at a later date). I would miss a lot of the functionality provided by my extensions and it would taint my opinion of Safari... not to mention no Foxkeh.

Score: 0

By Suomedia

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 7:43 PM

PC TOOL ... Please do an install of Quicktime so that you can tell the World where people are given the option for it NOT to open mp3 files by default. It does this when people are trying to download music files from sites other than iTunes. Rather than the file being downloaded, it is streamed into Quicktime and then is lost to the person who only wants to download the file.

I have a default MP3 player that does not behave this way, yet if I install Quicktime, I have no choice and it overrides my default to install itself as default.

This is a far more serious and sinister issue than the Safari install. Are you going to say that Apple is "brilliant" for doing this also?

It is clearly intentional and designed to injure music sites competing with Apple.

Quicktime is MALWARE.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Mar 25, 2008 - 9:17 AM

PC TOOL ... Please do an install of Quicktime so that you can tell the World where people are given the option for it NOT to open mp3 files by default. It does this when people are trying to download music files from sites other than iTunes. Rather than the file being downloaded, it is streamed into Quicktime and then is lost to the person who only wants to download the file.

Just because *you* can't use the internet isn't Apple's fault.

Right-click, save as. Done.

Yes, Apple is brilliant. You however, are not.

Score: 0

By davidlerner

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 6:13 PM

This is why I never have nor ever will buy a product from apple. The way they out right lie to there customers, just doesn't float my boat.

www.talkprice.net

Score: 0

By NULLedge

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 10:55 AM

spam?

Score: 0

By mjm01010101

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 5:42 PM

http://secunia.com/advisories/29483/
Insecure by nature.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 5:07 PM

I find it very amusing.

Apple suckers a bunch of idiots by pre-checking a bunch of installs...

...and everyone hops on the "Blame Apple" bandwagon.

What about the idiot who didn't bother to look at what he was accepting? What? These people aren't responsible for their actions?

Give me a break.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? What happened to owning up to our actions or lack of attention?

It's brilliant, it's perfectly legal, and it sure makes the suckers easy to spot.

I'm no Apple Fanboy, but I gotta give credit where credit is due. Go Apple!

Score: 0

By preinterpost

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 8:57 AM

Completely disagree. For the majority of non-professional PC users the computer is just a commodity. Why should they read through tons of documentation just to get an update of the software they need to run their ipod? I make sure my PC stays a clean state of the art high performance machine but just because someone needs a device to do word processing and email and doesn't want to care about maintenance doesn't make them an idiot. In fact I envy them for being able not to give a damn about OS and hardware - I waste way too much time on this crap.
This is typical spy/malware distribution practice and should be treated like anything else non-obvious hidden in small print with severe consequences: with a law suit.

Score: 0

By Morsel

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 9:35 AM

"Why should they read through tons of documentation just to get an update"....Tons of documentation??? It's a simple check-box: check or uncheck.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 12:24 PM

Really.

3 seconds and a few checkboxes.

Oooh...the poor sheep....

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 9:15 AM

For the majority of non-professional PC users the computer is just a commodity.

...and so is a car. They have to learn how to drive, don't they? You're not trying to imply being part of a botnet isn't a dangerous activity, are you? Sure, it may not be life threatening, but it can sure cause quite a bit of financial damage, and with ID theft, it gets personal.

If, at the very least, they cannot protect themselves online, they should not *be* online.

Why should they read through tons of documentation just to get an update of the software they need to run their ipod?

It's called responsibility. Ever heard of it?

just because someone needs a device to do word processing and email and doesn't want to care about maintenance doesn't make them an idiot.

Nope. Makes them an irresponsible jackass.

In fact I envy them for being able not to give a damn about OS and hardware - I waste way too much time on this crap.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it is no excuse.

This is typical spy/malware distribution practice and should be treated like anything else non-obvious hidden in small print with severe consequences: with a law suit.

It can be avoided with two clicks and 3 seconds of reading. Give me a break.

Score: 0

By preinterpost

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 12:54 PM

If what you state had any applicability in the *REAL* world there would not be bot nets.

What IT pros should accept is that the common user does not and has every right not to worry about a major brand trying to trick them into loading some trash onto their machine. Heck most of them won't have any clue what Safari is.*Especially* Apple, who put such emphasis on
making their machines a simple user friendly commodity should stay away from such practice.

The other day I sent a friend a link on this site to download something. I personally never see the damn ads due to my blocker. What happened is that this dear site is placing huge banners in the File Forum with large 'Download' buttons in Flash - so my friend clicked it because it came from a trusted source (me) and installed some bulls***. At 1st I thought what an idiot but she is probably more successful than most of you guys will ever be and simply has entirely different priorities than PC maintenance. It is annoying to her to deal with these things at all. This is the reality for the majority of users, not sad nerds like us hanging out on this site.

Your car driving analogy makes no point. Some simple users know perfectly well how to make Millions with their office apps (drive). They do not need to know how to keep the PC running (change the oil filter).

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 1:00 PM

What IT pros should accept is that the common user does not and has every right not to worry about a major brand trying to trick them into loading some trash onto their machine.

We should just accept ignorance?

No. Not a chance in Hell. We should train, educate, and inform.

This is why the US is going downhill so damned fast. Everyone wants to be so damned forgiving of everyone else's inability to take responsibility for their own actions. No, we'll just blame it on the government...or on some faceless corporation...anything to make us feel better about ourselves without having to do any actual frigging work.

What a joke. Accept ignorance? Bull. Never. Take that liberal BS somewhere else.

Score: 0

By preinterpost

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 2:56 PM

Wow, now we are getting off on a different tangent. Your remark is quite funny and soothes my fractured ego, which is typically accused of political incorrectness and intolerance of idiots. However, maybe you should go and look up the difference between liberal and libertarian. But I guess that might damage your usual argument when running out of amunition...

You simply don't get it. Computers are mainstream, nothing special outside of your mum's basement. Like a TV the user just wants it to work and not be bothered. It is up to the pros to recognize this and implement systems accordingly instead of a 'reputable' brand (which doesn't miss a chance to make a point how user centric everything is in their world) trying to screw their user into something by chance.

While I agree there is a major issue in the US with implementing excessive controls to protect the dumb at the expense of progress, I guess it comes down to being brain-washed with a corrupted value system from early childhood on - such as finding it OK to push commercial interest by exploiting ignorance. The same practices were popular during colonization...

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 3:23 PM

You simply don't get it. Computers are mainstream, nothing special outside of your mum's basement. Like a TV the user just wants it to work and not be bothered.

More BS.

You *want* it to be like a TV. It is not. No matter how much you want it to be. Let me break it down for you in simple terms you might understand;

TV - Unidirectional. Information travels one way and one way only. You cannot affect the TV viewing of others in any way.

Computers - Multi-directional. Information travels from other computers to yours and form yours to other computers. What you do affects others.

Beginning to see a difference here?

What you do with your TV affects no one, hence little responsibility goes with it's use.

What you do with your computer can potentially affect millions. It therefore comes with a great deal more responsibility.

*Weather you choose to see it that way or not.*

When your actions can have an effect on others it is *your* responsibility to make sure those actions have as little negative impact as possible. That means *gasp* learning how to use your computer.

Score: 0

By preinterpost

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 5:39 PM

Thanks for the kind explanation but you missed the *getting it* part by a fraction.

I try one last time since you are clever enough but conditioned to think one-directional: It is impossible to control everybody with a computer out there and for reasons you list below the industry must come up with ways to simplify the consumer platform. Apple has been quite successful with their proprietary closed crap so it is even more disgusting that they come up with and abuse such a back door.

Now go out and "train, educate, and inform" a couple of Million bad damnable ignorant users who don't deserve any better.

Putting on a liberal hat for you I'll have a couple of glasses of wine and maybe a cigarette while you are at it and wish you good luck.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 26, 2008 - 1:14 PM

Now go out and "train, educate, and inform" a couple of Million bad damnable ignorant users who don't deserve any better.

Undeserving, eh?

cute...

Sorry. Still not buying it. The first step isn't compromise. Not anymore. The first step is ISPs disconnecting those who cannot practice responsible computing. The consumer can decide the next step (not being connected, or becoming a responsible user).

Score: 0

By GS5

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 9:43 PM

PC_Tool, I agree with you 100%. Users should take responsibility for their actions. 95% of all computer users have absolutely no clue how to use a computer. They click yes on any and everything just to make the annoying window go away.

But seriously, if the tables were turned and M$ camouflaged IE7 as an update and installed it on a Mac. Everyone would be outraged and it wouldn't take long for users and Apple to file lawsuits against M$.

But when Apple does something sneaky like this nobody cares. And that's what astonishes me, why is it o.k. for Apple and not M$? And I'm no fan of M$.

Score: 0

By auiotour

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 11:56 PM

It's not marked as an Update, it's marked as "New Software is available from Apple", it does not say New updates from Apple. If you can't read that's on you not Apple.

Score: 0

By dvferret

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 7:43 PM

Its not brilliant, its darn right annoying.

Score: 0

By Paul Skinner

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 6:29 PM

1. Monopolies being unfairly sought. Microsoft has been found guilty of abusing monopolies before, and I see no reason for Apple to get away with doing exactly the same thing.
They have an earned monopoly with iTunes, and they shouldn't be using this to leverage a further one in the browser market so sneakily (see part 2).

2. There are 1 Billion people with internet access. You cannot and should not expect all these people to have knowledge of what is and what isn't an update in a program clearly labelled as Apple Software Update.

I am not against Apple doing this, per se; I just would like to see them at least rename the application used to push new software on people.

Not everyone out there is a technology fanatic like us; for some technology is a new and confusing world.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 9:10 AM

They have an earned monopoly with iTunes, and they shouldn't be using this to leverage a further one in the browser market so sneakily (see part 2).

Nothing is bundled. You are asked if you want to install the additional applications.

You cannot and should not expect all these people to have knowledge of what is and what isn't an update in a program clearly labelled as Apple Software Update.

Then they should not be online. Simple as that. These are the same people who make up the spam\virus\DDoS botnets. I have no pity for them, and neither should anyone else.

If they own a computer and connect it tot he world they have a *responsibility* to use it properly. If they can not afford to take the time to learn, they should not be online.

Score: 0

By Program86

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 5:45 PM

well this is a real fuc*kin' milestone!

I AGREE with everything PC_TOOL said.

Idiots that press "yes" to everything cannot complain, and that goes for all computer users... win and *nix users alike.

Score: 0

By dvferret

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 7:44 PM

I agree with that part.

Score: 0

By mahvin

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 5:38 PM

I totally agree. Pay attention to what you say "YES" to.

Score: 0

By Neoprimal

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 4:19 PM

It's principle. It's not called the Apple Program Installer, it's called Apple Software Update so it shouldn't install 'new' programs on any system, or even have the option of doing it, it should simply have the option to update what is there. People talking about google, that point is moot....Googles software installation is a part of some installers, don't hate the player, hate the game - blame the devs who choose to have it as an option there (for whatever reason). Those who will say, but windows update installs so and so - no, it doesn't, Microsoft/Windows Update only 1. updates whatever windows programs are installed or 2. patches files. If the ASU detected Safari in the FIRST place, then fine - no worries. But to have it magically appear on your system (just because you're not paying attention to a system UPDATER) is plain wrong. I don't care who you are, Apple, MS or Google.

Score: 0

By greghill

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 4:40 PM

Neoprimal - from one who has worked in the software update development business, your comment is very intelligent, and right on. It was a constant fight in update development to keep Marketing out of the users' faces and from forcing new software "updates" on them.

Score: 0

By Bogunch

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 3:41 PM

It's no different than Google trying to get you to install their junk all of the time. Just stay alert during installations!

Score: 0

By mahvin

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 5:32 PM

Google has never once slipped in additional uploads/updates on ANY installation I have ever used, period. They certainly haven't been beating down my door to get me to install their "junk".

I'll take Google's "junk" web applications over "over-priced" proprietary applications from Apple, any day.

Score: 0

By auiotour

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 11:58 PM

I didn't realize Safari or iTunes, or Quicktime cost money or were proprietary software. Those are the only software that shows up in the downloader.

Score: 0

By mahvin

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 4:06 AM

I was referencing Google Docs vs Apple's Appleworks, etc...

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 5:01 PM

Google has never tried to get me to install anything.

...

Where are you seeing this?

(AFAIK, google has a whopping 2 applications. Picasa, and Google Earth. Neither of which most folks would consider to be "junk". )

Score: 0

By mmoak

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 7:47 AM

What about Gmail notifier and Google's chat client? These are two apps not built into the Gmail system. They are in fact downloads.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 9:06 AM

And I've never been asked to install them by any other Google App I've installed.

Score: 0

By mmoak

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 4:09 PM

Really? You've never been asked to download anything along with Google Desktop?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 4:40 PM

Google Pack.

No questions, no sneaky installs, no prompting.

Score: 0

By mmoak

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 6:00 PM

I'm not talking about google pack. I'm talking about Google Desktop.

In a different thought, an Update package should be just that...for updating! yay.
Safari would be a new installation of an app that did not exist on your computer and I'm not sure this qualifies as an update.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 26, 2008 - 1:11 PM

Google Desktop can be installed via the Google pack, which does not include such prompting.

Thus, you get the software you want, without the nagging. :)

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Mar 25, 2008 - 1:15 AM

Java, Flash Player, Quicktime, Acrobat Reader, Winzip, Real Player...seriously. Almost all Sun and Adobe products in particular leave the google toolbar checked to install by default.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 9:05 AM

Not a single one of those is a Google product.

Score: 0

By tommyb709

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 10:27 PM

How about Google Desktop and Google Toolbar? I consider those "junk".
And Google Toolbar is installed with RealPlayer and WinZip unless you uncheck the box...

Score: 0

By mmoak

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 4:10 PM

And don't forget with every single Sun Java update. HATE! RAGE! BOOOOOO

Score: 0

By IceyKola

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 3:39 PM

I like the way microsoft does it better for optional updates. Show the option but don't have it checked. Apple's software update should only pre-check updates for installed software.

I don't mind them giving me the option. But it gets annoying have to uncheck it everytime.

Score: 0

By dpwilli@gmail.com

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 3:15 PM

I install a lot of software on my computer, and so I pay pretty close attention to what an install programs tries to add to my machine and I always opt out of added features such as the Safari update. But there are less computer savvy people out there, like my parents (sorry mom and dad) that wouldn't know any better than to just install these kinds of things. And then they can't figure out why their hard drives are full, their system trays have 37 programs running in it, and it takes 25 minutes to for most applications to load. Then they take the advice of their local Geek Squad guy and buy a new quad-core with a 2TB HD and 2 gigs of ram, when all they really need to do in uninstall about 60% of the crap on their machine, which, in my opinion, would include Safari.

Score: 0

By mahvin

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 3:08 PM

Competition? Apple? Hahahahahaha! Dream on, Jobs...

Score: 0

By Suomedia

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 3:35 PM

Why don't we bring Apple's Quicktime into this discussion also? This MALWARE installs itself in such a way that people are prevented from downloading mp3's from other music sites. Instead of downloading, the files immediately open in Quicktime (I am sure there are no problems downloading from iTunes). While its true there are ways to circumvent this problem, it simply should not happen. Just another way for Apple to try and assert a monopoly over music downloads, with many users simply giving up trying to download music from other sites.

Score: 0

By Banquo

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 4:16 PM

I hate QuickTime but that has never happened to me. You obviously told it to be the default player for all media formats when you installed it. Also Firefox as well as most browsers give the option of either Download or Open With. In this case it was your mistake, not some crazy tinfoil hat conspiracy by Apple to take over the other music download sites.

Score: 0

By Paul Skinner

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 3:19 PM

It does?

I've never had this happen, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Score: 0

By Paul Skinner

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 3:03 PM

~Safari();

Score: 0

By esr

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 2:38 PM

insert standard windows fanboy comment #423A here...

insert standard iSheep joke #14C here...

Score: 0

By skimore

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 2:11 PM

Steve Jobs KNOWS what you need and want.. He will provide it to you when you need it. Now turn off your windows machine and buy a mac!!

Score: 0

By Boilerman

edited Mar 24, 2008 - 2:56 PM

I already did!!!

Score: 0

By mmoak

posted Mar 25, 2008 - 6:02 PM

and you can post things? Do you use Safari or FF? :)

Score: 0

By andrewdownloader

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 3:05 PM

I'm a Web Developer and I work every day using Macs...so I know when I say that macs are not big deal, just other kind of computers with a lot of pros and a lot of cons. Talking about sotware, Steve Jobs doesn't know what I want, I want my Opera browser, about music I don't want iTumes because I don't like its style, I dont buy songs from apple and I'm not using anymore my iPod, and yes, I use QuickTime, is good...I installed Safari to test my work (web pages) but I don't like that browser. Opera is much better for me.

Score: 0

By auiotour

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 11:59 PM

Unfortunately things like Safari, and iTunes and the iPod work for the majority of people who use them. So your one case that doesnt. I prefer not to use Safari as well, though I have it installed on both my mac and pc. Case #2, but again they work for a lot of people.

Score: 0

By Faustus

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 2:48 PM

Yes sir!~

Score: 0

By andrewdownloader

posted Mar 24, 2008 - 2:10 PM

Works in both directions, I only installed Safari and QT, I chose not to install iTunes nor Apple Software Update but...Anyway we all know that Mr Jobs take decisions for us, so Apple Software Update was installed without my permission and it "sugests me" to instal iTunes as an Update...Is the Apple way to make people use what they want when they want.

Score: 0