New Chinese Involvement Could Trigger HD DVD Price Plunge

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

September 7, 2007, 4:14 PM

If ever there were a time for either Blu-ray or HD DVD manufacturers to play a trump card, now may be the time, and this could be the one: A consortium of Chinese university engineers and government officials, in cooperation with a Chinese video standards group that includes globally recognized manufacturers, plus the DVD Forum, have come to an agreement on a standard specification for a blue-laser disc mechanism and format specifically for the Chinese market.

The new group will be called the China High Definition DVD Industry Association, or just CHDA, and this is not the last you will hear of it.

The agreement announced early this morning US time is critical, because up until now, China has been reluctant to participate in the high-definition video disc industry unless it had an opportunity to bring its own video encoding standard to bear: AVS, a codec which incorporates elements of MPEG-2, but is otherwise different from -- and some argue, better than -- other MPEG encoding standards and VC-1 in important respects.

Now, the DVD Forum's involvement has evidently made it possible for Chinese manufacturers to produce components that play blue-laser, high-def discs using the Chinese national standard, though which are fundamentally compatible with HD DVD with only minor adjustments.

The upshot here is this: The same country that has literally upset the LCD TV industry on its ear in just the last year alone, now has the specifications it needs to do the same with high-def video discs. While it makes so-called CH-DVD players for the home market (the name is subject to change, the new consortium says), China can also produce HD DVD players for the rest of the world, at prices that can best be described as Chinese.

All of a sudden, the incentive for studios such as Warner Bros. to call a halt to exploiting new disc technologies its own engineers had patented, and for Paramount to jump ship and abort its Blu-ray support, may be becoming clear.

What a difference a macroblock makes

Since 2004, China has taken a public stand against becoming too involved in what it described as "Western-influenced technologies" in the development of high-def technology. The country opted instead to create its own national standard - government-owned intellectual property for video encoding - and go its own way. But it needed a clear technological distinction between its own way of encoding video and the rest of the world's.

It found one, most likely, in the person of one Professor Ishfaq Ahmad. Educated at Syracuse, for nine years Ahmad taught at Hong Kong University of Science and Technology's Department of Computer Science, before moving back to the US to teach at the University of Texas at Arlington. But while in Hong Kong in 2001, he and two colleagues produced a thesis on the subject of reducing the computing overhead necessary for encoding H.263 video. One of the systems he used in the test was a Sun UltraSPARC-1 workstation; the other was a 233 MHz Intel Pentium II-based PC.

The Hong Kong team's goal was to demonstrate algorithmic optimization techniques that could be applied to relatively low-power systems such as these, that could demonstrably improve encoding times by a factor of between 3 and 6. Part of encoding optimization involves being able to divide frames into few enough components so that algorithms can still correctly detect motion - and thus, the need to change - without overtaxing the processor.

Rather than divide pictures down to the most granular level - pixels - video encoding bunches pixels together into what are called macroblocks - cubes, in a way, made up of squares of luminance and difference data bunched together. Typically with MPEG, macroblocks using 4 x 4 pixel squares are used. But for Prof. Ahmad's team's experiment, they tried a technique that, based on others' theories, should not have worked.

From the Hong Kong team's 2001 paper: "A picture is divided into macroblocks, since such division results in more efficient coding. Each macroblock consists of four luminance blocks and two spatially aligned color difference blocks. Each of these blocks [is] of size 8 x 8 pixels. One or more macroblock rows are combined into a group of blocks (GOB) to enable quick resynchronization after transmission errors."

It's the 8 x 8 macroblock that was key to simplifying the algorithm and accelerating the encoding sequence.

Three years later, the Chinese government announced it would be developing its own video encoding/decoding standard, to be called Advanced Audio Video Encoding Standard in Information Technology, or just AVS. It was described thus:

"China initiated the new standard to reduce its reliance on technologies that use international standards heavily influenced by companies in Western countries. The standard will be used in the development of video players, stereos, interactive educational programs, surveillance systems and other audio and video products developed for the Chinese market."

Leading the development of this standard would be Prof. Ahmad, who by that time had joined the University of Texas at Arlington. There, he and the university would receive a $200,000 grant from Sun Microsystems, which was evidently impressed by the use of the UltraSPARC-1 in the Hong Kong team's tests.

Next: China's strategy as a high-definition IP licensor...

Continued. . .
1 | 2 | Next >>

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By yountmj

edited Sep 12, 2007 - 7:54 AM

Umm... oookay George.

This has what to do with HD DVD Chinese involvement?

Score: 0

By realgeorge39

posted Sep 12, 2007 - 7:22 AM

dvdXsoft DVD to Zune Converter can convert video DVD to MP4 Video files suitable for Zune, PSP or iPod devices!...

www.zuneconverter.net/dvd-to-zune

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 12, 2007 - 7:55 AM

I guess while we're 'on the subject', HandBrake does it better.

http://handbrake.m0k.org/

It's open source, GPL-licensed, multi-platform, and multi-threaded.

Score: 0

By deminicus

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 2:34 PM

Same comments different article. Let it go guys this stuff is not that important. You're ripping into each other for no reason. It's obvious many here share a passion for tech stuff. Leave it at that. As far as my prediction if you wanted to know where I stand. I think the format that will "win" will be one that is cheapest to the consumer since the advantage over hd anydisk to dvd is not as significant as it was with dvd vs vhs. The difer ances between bd and hdvd are small in the eyes of the consumer. The only big one is price. So if hdvd does cost way less to give you hd picture then it will probably eventually "win".

9/11/01 "never forget"

Score: 0

By uberfly

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 3:51 PM

Spot on demi. Price beyond everything else is what matters in the end, and once the ball gets really rolling it's over. I hope this pushes it over the edge because I for one am sick and tired of it all. I just isn't that big of deal. I just want the bs to end and the burners/media to finally get to a decent price.

Score: 0

By JeremyGNJ

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 9:36 AM

WOW, I can't believe people argue like this over a movie format!!! heh

I can almost understand it for video game consoles, and sports teams. But come on....movie disc format?

It's such a pointless argument anyway. Before either one REALLY takes hold, digital storage, will be preferred method of getting and watching movies. 2-3 years from now, solid state drives will be cheap and HUGE, and you'll all be wondering why you have 100 physical movie cases on a shelf.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 7:13 PM

In addition to the reasons Hollywood and Hocuspokus have already given (and they've been quite thorough in their responses in the past as well) regarding the pro-Sony/PS3/Blu-ray camp and their tactics of manipulation, deception, and propaganda, this individual on AVS Forums summed up the current state of Blu-ray and HD DVD quite nicely:

http://www.avsforum.com/...showthread.php?t=899662

Also, there is yet another reason why their tactics are downright disgusting. They simply refuse to acknowledge facts about their beloved format that negate all of their efforts to convince people otherwise... facts such as this one:

http://www.campaignhd.com/807_BD11_Update.html

It is for the sole purpose of discrediting these sad individuals repeatedly that these topics usually see such regular activity... and it certainly doesn't just happen here on this forum. To be honest, it's quite subdued here, comparatively speaking.

Score: 0

By HoIIywood__

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 12:21 PM

LOL, the petition has 5,800 signatures since October 2006.

That will REALLY make the studios sit up and take notice...

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 12:10 PM

AVS Forums have always been HD DVD supporters, basically because it's full of early adopters that's don't want to end up having backed the losing format, and will go to insane lengths to try and derail Blu-Ray dominance.

You only have to read this guys first sentence, to see he is biased.

"I was writing a piece where I was interpreting and analysing the public statements by Paramount, Dreamworks and Viacom over their stunning decision last week,"

Nice one, pretend that Paramount,Viacom and Dreamworks are all different companies, making independent decisions. They are all part of the same deal...

HD DVD fanatics are the worst kind, they spew their tripe over forums, and attempt to spin bad news into good. "HD DVD may take 3 minutes to boot up, but it gives you time to make popcorn"

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 7:17 PM

"AVS Forums have always been HD DVD supporters"

Apparently AVS Forum's intelligent members severely outnumber the, shall we say, misguided.

You know, the AVS Forums reference not withstanding, replace every instance of "HD DVD" with "Blu-ray" (and vice versa) in your post and you could not have a truer statement.

There is nothing about the line you quoted indicating any level of bias towards HD DVD... and yes, they are separate companies, regardless of the fact that they were part of the same deal.

Pretend all you like that the Smurf army hasn't dissected, contorted, and mutilated their own analysis of the decision to jump ship for weeks.

Your hypocrisy is astounding.

While that article may be an opinion piece, it is littered with undeniable facts that directly counter each and every one of your own opinions.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 1:45 PM

"You know, the AVS Forums reference not withstanding"

- Keep up mate, don't you know "microsoft's avsforums" is the latest little dig the drones have been encouraged to use on bluray.com?

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 8:53 PM

Sorry, I guess I've been living under a rock. I suppose I need to start paying more attention to what's going on around me.

Let's see...

Studio support, then player pricing, then number of titles, then Nielsen sales data, then Amazon ranking, now this and the triple-layer media... all this with a rock-solid spec since inception.

Wow, looks like HD DVD is making BD their b*tch.

I think I'm all caught up now. :)

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 1:16 PM

I noticed you didn't try to defend a single statement they made. Is that because they are all true?

Nice fake Hollywood post, I still dont get what you are trying to prove.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 7:20 PM

You know, I would love just once for one of the Smurfs to try to debate what's in front of them, instead of pitifully attempting to spread more propaganda (usually having nothing to do with the topic at hand) when the facts are placed squarely at their feet.

Score: 0

By SGD

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 12:25 PM

You see that is where you are wrong, the Sony fanboys consistantly spew crap and incorrect information. I only see you calling him a fan boy but not disputing anything which for you is very unusal. I guess even you are having a hard time digging out from the hole you are already standing in.

And quotes pulled from bluray.com are not an unbiased! That site has the biggest collection of childish ideas and comments I have ever seen in one forum.

AVS tends to lean towards what the best is and they have picked HD so they are fanboys. If they had picked blo-ray tehy would be warriors in the blo army as people on bluray say. Give it up.

Speaking of boot up time ave you seen the boot time for Pirates what is it like forever.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 1:19 PM

He got banned months ago SDG, they don't put up with the crap that BetaNews does and he is pissed.

Did you notice he had to go to work just to see the AVS forum post and visit under an IP that isn't banned?

Tosser.

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 9:05 AM

Great stuff there. I find it interesting that none of the shills have attacked you yet. Maybe they are still looking for ways to dodge the issues that were brought up. Looking very sad for blo-ray.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 11:34 AM

"I find it interesting that none of the shills have attacked you yet."

I found that interesting as well. Even if it were something just downright ludicrous (which it usually always is), they usually respond with something.

Maybe they're finally starting to realize. I really do feel sorry for them sometimes. They're the victims in all this.

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 12:27 PM

There has only been one very weak response I find this very weird. The army has called a special meeting to determine what kind of lies they can respond with, stay tuned.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 3:25 AM

That AVS link you posted sums up what I have been expecting for a long time about Blu-Ray. It's not ready for prime time and won't be for another year.

Here it is again in case anyone wants to see what's really going on with BD: http://www.avsforum.com/...showthread.php?t=899662

You will see other studios pull out due to the problems with BD-J and 1.1

I have had 0 problems with a single HD-DVD disc or any of the HDi features. They cue up immediately and are seamless with the movie.

I rent quite a bit of BD movies from Netflix and just like the video I posted, I couldnt get the POTC 2 features to work either.

It's sad and pathetic that people are so brainwashed that they can't see the format is such a POS.

Too bad Dave wont be able to read it as his IP has been banned over at AVS.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 11:58 AM

"Too bad Dave wont be able to read it as his IP has been banned over at AVS."

Ahh, good point.

Then this is for Dave. :)

http://www.campaignhd.com/807_State_Of_BD.html

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 12:36 AM

It would be rather humorous to include a "Where's Waldo" type of BD-J game on Blu-ray releases called "Where's Profile 1.1"...

The only thing is, no one would be able to play it.

Maybe it will appear as an HDi extra. That's sure to provide hours of fun until people give up trying to find it. :)

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

edited Sep 10, 2007 - 1:39 PM

Jeremy,

There's a great reason why people argue over something like this. Money.

Early adopters (like Dave) bought a player for one format or the other and chose sides because they don't have the money to buy a player for the competing format.

I am an HD-DVD fan simply for the fact that I bought a PS3 at launch and then found out how many problems Blu-Ray has. I then got an XA1 and aside from it's slow load time was an excellent player. I then bought the 360 add-on, then the A2.

As an owner of both formats and both adult gaming consoles, I can make educated decisions based on experience as to which is better. Dave over there is broke and cheerleads BD on a dozen different websites and spends all his time promoting Blu-Ray.

The problem is he has turned more people off of the format than he has convinced people it's better, which it isn't except in disc storage.

People like Dave live, eat and breathe Blu-Ray simply for the fact he has nothing better to do. I am simply here to make him look as stupid as possible which he does a great job of doing all by himself.

I basically just sit and laugh while he changes usernames and tries to convince everybody BD is better. I work at home and I am on my computer for 15 hours straight sometimes so I can come here any time while I'm taking a break to berade this lemming.

It's sad to see someone like him spend so much time worrying about something as stupid as this, he even recruits people from the blu-ray.com forums to register here and post BD propaganda.

I couldnt imagine being so obsessed with anything.

Just stick around and watch his monosyllabic, unintelligible rants. He genuinely gets upset about HD-DVD being better. These are facts, HD-DVD has about 1/20th of the market share of players compared to Blu-Ray including the PS3 and still manages to sell about 40% of all HD movies sold.

I for one think they will both go the way of SACD and DVD-Audio. Remember, if he truly though Blu-Ray was better, he wouldnt be here trying to convince everyone is was.

As you can see below, he even logs in under my username with capital "I's" in place of lowercase "l's" t make it look like I am now promoting Blu-Ray.

I think he's a eunuch. He's more obsessed with me than he is Blu-Ray.

Score: 0

By ukcn001XYZ

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 10:48 PM

hmm, dave may be obsessing a little too much over BluRay, but seems like your obsessing quite a bit about dave.

But to readers out there, I'd avoid taking any of these comments as serious talking points in either direction.

You want to make a buy? Go to real reviewers sites far far away from the fan boys on this site.

But who knows, maybe I'm really dave on the other side.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 1:04 AM

I would say hold off from making a purchase for now.
Sit back and enjoy the entertainment at blu-ray.com and avs.
When its all over go out and purchase the winning machine :)

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 8:23 AM

Agreed.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 10, 2007 - 11:31 AM

"I can't believe people argue like this over a movie format!!! heh"

- Yeah but it's not really that, is it?

It's that plenty of people have finally had enough of the lying manipulative & very obvious shilling BS of the Sony PR 'machine' with their fake web-sites and fake 'members of the general public' talking sh*te & slamming everything that isn't Sony or Sony connected (as Blu-ray so obviously is).
The PS3 connection also means there is a higher than usual ignorant & idiotic fanboy count on this one, trying to convince people (and yes they are dumb enough to really imagine they're 'making a difference', 'selling' the product)

The fact that they are trying to shift such an obviously (and purpose designed) anti-consumer heap of cr@p as this Blu-ray is, as they lie about it and the competitor, just adds to the strength of negative felling about it.

They of course are just getting ever more desperate - cos Sony has basically bet 'the farm' on this one.

It all just adds a little 'zing' to it, that's all.

They're just reaping what they sowed......and showing them up for the ill-informed idiot shills that they so clearly are is just a little fun, it's the 'e' version of 'poking them with a long stick'.

If you think that's all paranoia & imagination then go check out 'phase hydra'.

.....and as for digital storage?
I doubt it, not for some time - oh I agree that it'll be big at some point in the future but people do like their handy physical back-ups.
Once you start to collect several hundred things on the one unit that can go counter to being 'handy' and easy to use.
It's a bit like having a full 8gb mp3 player, unless you're incredibly well organised it can be a bit of a mess and more likely to confuse, annoy & put you off of the idea than attract.

An on-line digital library is great in theory and may indeed come, one day, but imagine if you lost all the pictures, music and movies that you have stored and had to go find them all again on the net.
Of course it could probably be done, eventually, but it'd be a major pain in the ass.

Also the idea of accessing everything on-line - particularly HD content - is kind of flying in the face of the speed and capacity problems many people in many countries (even advanced countries) face and will face for many years to come.

That's why the Sony shills who love to spout a line of PR BS that pretends Microsoft want both formats to fail are so clearly lying.

No-one in their right mind is dismissing physical storage for a long time yet.......although I do agree that HDD storage is a serious contender for the home user offering an excellent gb/$ ratio.
Sadly they're just not quite as widely known or perceived to be as 'user friendly' as a disc amongst the less 'techy' members of the general public.

But it might be correct to say that this may be the disc's last gen, who knows?

Score: 0

By Niro

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 9:45 AM

2-3 years from now? Sure...I bet the MPAA will allow that to happen...

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 11:45 PM

This is how great Blu-Ray is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gQG4OFgrpA

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 10, 2007 - 7:50 PM

Man, that is one of the funniest yet saddest things I've seen in a long time.

Things just keep looking worse and worse for this format. The elitist attitude is what perplexes me the most. Things such as the upcoming (Q2 2008) Denon player(s) that tout BD Profile 1.1 support. What in the world makes them think that supporting those features (which should have been mandatory to begin with) allows them to attempt to extort a premium of almost $1000 over the cost of most of the currently available "high end" BD players (which are already criminally overpriced for what they provide... or don't provide, rather)?

So let me get this straight... for an expected retail price of $2000, I could get a BD player that supports the features that even the low-end, lowest-priced models should have supported from the beginning, yet additional information (subtitles, audio streams, camera angles, trailers, games, etc.) needs to be downloaded from the internet on a PC and transferred via SD card to the player? Good grief, what's the premium to have that ability included in the player??? Also... no DVD-Audio or SACD support? On a $2000 Denon??? Anyone stupid enough to pay that much deserves the disappointment that is sure to follow afterwards when they realize they've been had in the worst way possible.

It doesn't seem like the BDA is that serious about making their precious available to the general public. Their arrogance will be their downfall.

Score: 0

By HoIIywood__

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 7:47 PM

Dang, looks like the HD DVD 51GB tripple layer spec has been finalised, but all existing players are incompatible with them. Looks like you need a new HD DVD player to play them.

Oh dear...

Score: 0

By terminalx

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 9:31 AM

I can't figure out if you are just bored or like to comment on things you have no clue about...

Its been speculated that if it wasn't compatible with the previous generation of players, it wouldn't have been approved. Testing is currently underway on verifying if it will be until then no one knows if it will work or not.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 9:50 PM

What a loser.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 9:44 PM

"looks like the HD DVD 51GB tripple layer spec has been finalised, but all existing players are incompatible with them. Looks like you need a new HD DVD player to play them."

- No it doesn't you lying moron.

HD DVD hardware has been capable of reading Triple Layers since the very 1st HD DVD drive on day 1.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

Score: 0

By HoIIywood__

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 5:53 AM

There is nothing in that link about 51GB discs I can see.

Is this a new press release concerning the recently ratified tripple layer spec, or just some randon NEC spec paper from several years back? (I like the 90GB HD DVD discs, where I can I get these please..).

Fact is, you need a new player to play these new 51GB HD DVD discs. Toshiba just sold you down the river.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 7:29 AM

"There is nothing in that link about 51GB discs I can see".

The HR1100A was the very first HD DVD gen 1 drive, right?

.....are you seriously trying to say that they shelved the TL capacity as they moved from gen 1 to gen 2 to gen 3 (and all as they developed the 51gb TL disc?).

Give it up, you've done this one to death and are now just looking like pouty little brats who's sweeties have been taken away.

1st of all you claimed it would never happen, then it was it'll never work and now it's that it's still a 'prototype' and won't work with everything.
If that's the best doubt you can manage to spew that's pretty pathetic.

30 days is all we've been asked to wait for a major public announcement on the subject.

Man, but I hope you're around so I can laugh in your face, shill loser.

Score: 0

By SlapShot

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 7:18 AM

wow you really need to get a life shadow

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 9:06 PM

*yawn*

Oh look, Shadow Hollywood is back...

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 9:51 PM

LOL, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. It's so obvious this guy hates himself.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 10:07 PM

Heh, true. Poor little guy. I bet he's secretly wanting out of the club, but doesn't quite know how to break it to Papa Smurf yet.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 12:40 PM

The daily DaveBG quote from blu-ray.com:

The thread title was:

IFA 2007: Pioneer Blu-ray Player, Cars, Sin City

Dave says:

"That is awesome news! Go Blu! Save us from the hd dvd misery! :)"

What a flacid clown.

Transformers is number 4 on Amazon, 300 is BD's top selling movie at 53. Looks like Paramount is going to sell some movies this holiday season.

Score: 0

By DaveBG

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 11:35 AM

Holly, clown is better than a retard which you prove you are every day LOL :) Get a boyfriend already and stop searching the web for "mine" comments.

Get life and accept that hd dvd failed once again. And Pioneer will only kick your arse this time, next time it will be someone else. :D

By the way "Hollywood__" and "Hocuspokus" are sister and brother respectively. (yeah they are the only two hd dvd fanboys here that would sell their soul to the devil and they write miles long posts all they long here if that would hurt sony - is that not retarded?)

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 1:49 PM

"and they write miles long posts all they long here if that would hurt sony - is that not retarded?)"

- It's called being literate and interested in a discussion of the facts beyond the most shallow & superficial, Dave.

Obviously you never let yourself worry about any of that tho, eh?

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 12:41 PM

At least you admitted you're a clown. Wow, you can tell he's embarrassed. LMAO! Exactly the reaction I wanted, thanks.

How's that online petition you started for Universal to go Blu-Ray coming? You complete loser, it sounded like a five year old wrote a letter to Santa begging for toys.

WTF is wrong with you? Don't you like girls?

Score: 0

By bigsexy022870

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 1:40 AM

I don't care which format wins or why it wins. Just as long as I get cheaper HI-DEF. Enough with this crap of 500 dollar players and movies that cost 35-40 bucks for what mostly are crap movies anyways. I love hi-def and want it. And i want hd'dvd burners or whatever, and i want it fast. I download allot of crap and the tiny 4.35gig limit of dvd sucks bigtime. And even the dual layer disks cost to much. Enough with the BS and get the s*** to market cheap and fast. I live in the real would, and I just care about what i want. And now I need cheaper storage media and a cheaper burner for them.

Score: 0

By bourke

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 1:36 AM

Sorry misread it - AVS, not AVC.

Score: 0

By bourke

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 1:37 AM

please ignore

Score: 0

By xsnred

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 12:36 AM

Since 2004, China has taken a public stand against becoming too involved in what it described as "Western-influenced technologies" in the development of high-def technology.

I have oil in my back yard but I'm not going to drill as I don't want to become to involved in what might be described as "Eastern-influenced fuel distribution" in the easement of soaring fuel prices in the U.S. of A.

Score: 0

By DigitAl56K

posted Sep 8, 2007 - 11:36 PM

This is BS.

"Typically with MPEG, macroblocks using 4 x 4 pixel squares are used."

No they aren't. Blocks are 8x8, macroblocks are 16x16.

"But for Prof. Ahmad's team's experiment, they tried a technique that, based on others' theories, should not have worked."

Oh really, why not?

"From the Hong Kong team's 2001 paper: "A picture is divided into macroblocks, since such division results in more efficient coding. Each macroblock consists of four luminance blocks and two spatially aligned color difference blocks. Each of these blocks [is] of size 8 x 8 pixels."

Congratulations! You just did basically the same as MPEG! 4 8x8 luma blocks per macroblock, and two subsampled chroma blocks. WOW!!

"One or more macroblock rows are combined into a group of blocks (GOB) to enable quick resynchronization after transmission errors."

Wow, you just re-invented slices, too!

"It's the 8 x 8 macroblock that was key to simplifying the algorithm and accelerating the encoding sequence."

That's THE SAME algorithm as MEPG 4 ASP.

"AVS is China independent standard which based on homeland innovative technology and partial public technology. AVS coding efficiency is more than 2-3 time of MPEG-2, and similar with AVC. Moreover the AVS technical plan is succinct; chip is less complex."

It sounds like they just created their own DivX/XVID (based on MPEG-4 ASP).

On the other hand, AVC/H.264 allows for more extensive variable block sizes.

What a lot of FUD.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 8, 2007 - 9:47 PM

......and now the 51gb HD DVD disc gets DVD Forum approval.

http://www.screendigest....ates/vi-060907-ec3/show

Another element to HD DVD the Blu-ray fanclub all swore blind was 'vapor-ware' & a myth that would never happen comes to be reality.

Read it and weep.

So that's HD DVD with
(1) the largest disc size;
(2) the largest available, exclusive and potential content;
(3) a proper range of price and spec;
(4) the lowest entry level by a country mile;
(5) high-end products (like the HD XA2) at the level of the Blu-ray entry level;
(6) the highest bit-rate (54mbps for the 51gb TL disc) and
(7) a future.

Enjoy your proprietary format PS3 owners; shame you all got led up the garden path (again) by your beloved CE corporation but if you will just blindly believe their PR BS what do you expect?

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 4:00 PM

You realise that current HD DVD players do not have the hardware capable of focusing on the 3rd layer?

What this means?

Best case, movies are laid out, so main movie is on layer 1 and 2, and new players can read the extras on layer 3

Worst case, current players are trash, and you have to buy a new player.

Don't let people fool you that a simply firmware update will allow the pickup to focus on the 3rd layer, it's simply not possible.

Kinda makes the Profile 1.1 BD problems really insignificant!!

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 2:30 PM


Best case, movies are laid out, so main movie is on layer 1 and 2, and new players can read the extras on layer 3

Worst case, current players are trash, and you have to buy a new player.


ROFLMAO!

Weren't you the guy whining in the last thread about the fact that BD Profile 1.1 would "merely" not allow certain extras to be used? ...and how that wasn't an issue?


Kinda makes the Profile 1.1 BD problems really insignificant!!


Kinda makes your entire argument in that last article totally hypocritical, does it not?

Yay you! You go, girl!

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 11:35 PM

And what about all existing BD players when BD-J is rolled out? Guess what, none of them will be able to use the extra features.

There is no guarantee that the PS3 will be able to play them either, even with a firmware update.

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 7:01 PM

Actualy if anything it makes you look more insignificant since you don't know what you are talking about again.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 6:47 PM

"You realise that current HD DVD players do not have the hardware capable of focusing on the 3rd layer?"

- You really are a sadly ill-informed ludicrously sad troll.

Triple layer was in the specs of the very first HD DVD drives, in fact.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

"You realise that current HD DVD players do not have the hardware capable of focusing on the 3rd layer? "

- Wrong. Triple layer was in the specs of the very first HD DVD drives, in fact.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

"Best case, movies are laid out, so main movie is on layer 1 and 2, and new players can read the extras on layer 3

Worst case, current players are trash, and you have to buy a new player."


- Wrong. Triple layer was in the specs of the very first HD DVD drives, in fact.

Are you starting to 'twig' yet, idiot?

You're also desperately ignoring the fact that the 51gb disc has been approved by the DVD Forum.

Therefore it must have reached their requirements for backwards compatibility.

"Don't let people fool you that a simply firmware update will allow the pickup to focus on the 3rd layer, it's simply not possible."

- It is when the HD DVD hardware has been capable of reading Triple Layers since day 1.

http://www.cloetens.be/custom/home/hd_dvd.pdf

"Kinda makes the Profile 1.1 BD problems really insignificant!!"

- No it doesn't.
Nice try but you're just talking your laughably ignorant Blu-ray shill cr@p (again).

This is nothing like the same, gen 1 HD DVD owners do not stand to lose out on anything - unlike 'profile 1.0' Blu-ray owners who will be certain to miss out on various supposedly 'advanced' movie disc features and extras.....and then there are all of them that fail to comply with 'profile 2.0' who will miss out on internet connectivity and the additional features that that is supposed to be bringing.

What was the point of this pathetic post of yours Steve......a laughable bit of 'rearguard action'!?

Do you honestly think you're convincing anyone with your lame and desperately ignorant trolling?

BTW have to laugh at how you've abandoned trying to quibble over the Chionese CH-DVD issue.
Maybe you want to try and send me off on a chase for even more links to prove you were wrong & didn't know what you were talking about?
LMAO

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 10:37 PM

Have you got anything other than a NEC pdf? All that really says is that NEC players support 3 layers not all HD players in general

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 7:25 AM

"Have you got anything other than a NEC pdf?"

- You do know that the HR1100A was the very first HD DVD gen 1 drive, right?

.....or do you think that they shelved the capacity as they moved from gen 1 to gen 2 to gen 3 (as they developed the 51gb TL disc?).

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 8:37 PM

Actually no I didnt know it was the very first HDDVD gen 1 drive :)
But it still really only tells me that NEC have supported 3 layers from the start. All i want is confirmation that other players such as the toshiba ones also support it. Reading a NEC pdf isnt going to tell me that

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 11, 2007 - 7:55 AM

"But it still really only tells me that NEC have supported 3 layers from the start."

- No, it does more than that, it tells you that Toshiba & NEC were developing triple layer right from the very start of HD DVD.

We also know that Toshiba carried on developing triple layer from that 45gb TL disc all the way through from the very beginning of HD DVD right up to the present and this 51gb TL disc.

Are you seriously suggesting that as they developed, manufactured and sold gen 1, 2 & 3 players they ignored the fact that gen 1 was designed from the start to play TL and that they were continuing to develop TL
(especially as news of the 51gb disc broke into the public news domain in jan 2007 a mere 2 or 3 months after the release of the gen 2 HD A")?

Wriggle on this point all you like but that doesn't make any sense at all and is IMO simply not a credible position to take.

I'd wait the 30 days we were told to, once the 1st movie is announced it'll be obvious & part of the press release that it either will or will not work with gen 1 or 2.

My money would be that it will
(and ditto the new 17gb & 34gb discs that this development also entails).

Score: 0

By DaveBG

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 11:17 AM

1) the largest disc size;
- Yeah is 3 layesr right? If i overturn Blu-ray i will get 52GB which you cant do with 51GB 3 layer prototype.
You lose

(2) the largest available, exclusive and potential content;
- Wrong, Blu-ray have more movies available, more studio support and more hardware support
You lose

(3) a proper range of price and spec;
- What should that mean? Blu-ray have a lot more variants like BD20, 50, and in the future 100 and 200. What hd dud have? 15 (lol) and 30. And is cheaper per GB.
You lose

(4) the lowest entry level by a country mile;
- Again crap. You like lying arent you?

The rest below is the same. BD have the best players and transfer rate this can not be hidden.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Sep 11, 2007 - 11:46 PM

"If i overturn Blu-ray i will get 52GB which you cant do with 51GB 3 layer prototype."

What? Are you suggesting they've secretly added a 2 GB layer on top of the disc?

You are acting truly, unconditionally, shockingly retarded.

With all of the manufacturing difficulties they've had, Blu-ray discs might as well be prototypes still.

Video CDs and DVDs cannot be overburned, due to the rigid specifications of video discs. Typical data files are a different matter, but still... what makes you think the same does not apply to Blu-ray discs?

I don't suppose you could be bothered to list even one example of being able to overburn BD-R/RE discs? I suppose not, since you have yet to refute anything else.

Even if you could, what the balls makes you think that it would yield a gain of 2 GB? They're having enough trouble getting the yields up on disc production as it is. Even if there were drives available or announced that were capable of it, I'm sure it would be several months before the disc could handle it. But at the astronomical price they're expecting for the media, why would you risk playback compatibility issues by doing so?

Poor little Smurf.

It's quickly coming to the point where all Blu-ray offers is severely more expensive hardware... and all Sony will have is the PS3.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 1:47 PM

"If i overturn Blu-ray i will get 52GB which you cant do with 51GB 3 layer prototype."

- I take it you meant to say 'over-burn'?
Wrong

You can't overburn BD, you idiot.

In fact due to manufacturing difficulties many supposedly 50gb aren't 50gb at all, they are 40+ something gb discs in reality.

But being the 'Blu-ray insider' that you claim you are you (don't) know that, right Dave?

LMAO.

"Blu-ray have more movies available, more studio support and more hardware support"

- Wrong (again).

Before Paramounts announcement a Blu-Ray supporter had access to 62% of all available HiDef titles, while a HD DVD supporter had access to 61%.

After the Viacom/Paramount/Dreamworks/MTV Film/Nickelodeon announcement the HD DVD supporter still has 61% - that hasn't changed, but the Blu-Ray supporter now has only 55%.

This does not take imports into account or disks distributed in other countries (HD DVD's Studio Canal releases aren't there in those stats for instance). The figures are based on:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

Which cover American releases only.

Neither owner gives up on half of all available titles.

The HD DVD supporter misses out on 39% while the Blu-Ray owner now misses out on 45%.

But if you take into account that 60 of those supposedly 'exclusive' Blu-ray titles are in fact available on HD DVD internationally (which thanks to HD DVD being region-free everytime you can buy without worry) it turns out Blu-ray currently has in fact only 124 or so exclusive titles (and that was before this move by Viacom/Paramount. MTV Film/Dreamworks/Nickelodeon).

Now that they have decided so decisively Paramount will begin to ramp up production which will actually end up making a much bigger difference than before or is visible in those numbers too
(and offsetting the return of Fox to Blu-ray disc production.......cos they were nowhere to be seen until their announcement the day after Paramount spoke - and have yet to deliver into the market anything tangible).

In the USA there are 292 HD DVD movies available according to this site here -
http://hddvdstats.com/index.php

this compares to Blu-ray's 297 according to the stats here -
http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

These sites also currently show
(and remember this is pre-the Viacom/Paramount move)
Blu-ray with 184 exclusive movies and HD DVD with 179.

But as mentioned earlier this is not true.

Those numbers only apply to movies sourced within the USA; in fact the Blu-ray total is approx 60 less 'exclusive movies' than claimed; so Blu-ray actually has only 124 or so genuinely 'exclusive movies' to HD DVD's 179 exclusive films.

That's thanks to different publishing and distribution deals in other parts of the world
(and thanks to HD DVD being region-free everytime)
so you can source over 60 of those supposedly 'Blu-ray exclusive' movies internationally on HD DVD because they are actually only 'Blu-ray exclusive' in the USA.

These sites show you which and how; there are lists of over 60 of those movies here -
http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109
and here
http://forums.highdefdig...m/show...5960#post45960

So in fact HD DVD has just over 60 additional discs to add to the total available claimed at this site (292 + 60 = ) 352 movies in total currently available HD DVD movies to Blu-ray's total of 297, giving HD DVD a significantly larger amount of available content.

Just in from CEDIA 2007

Warner, Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks and Dreamworks Animation to release an additional 125 new HD DVD titles by the end of '07.

"What should that mean?"

- It means that without the PS3 Blu-ray died and was buried long ago.

"Again crap. You like lying arent you?"

- Wrong
Current HD DVD entry point is the Toshiba HD A2, $220.
Soon to be the Venturer/Shinco @ $149.

Who's lying Dave? Show me the Blu-ray player at anything like those prices.

"The rest below is the same."

- LMAO.

Wow, how convincing, great handle on the facts there BD shill.

"BD have the best players and transfer rate this can not be hidden."

- Wrong

Besides the PS3 and Sony S300 almost no-one is buying any other Blu-ray players.

What do you mean by "best players".....Blu-ray players that are 'profile 1.0' (like every one of them is right now) with nothing like the same advanced features as all the HD DVD players?

.....and neither the PS3 or S300 are 'profile 1.1' or 'profile 2.0' compliant either.

.....and at 1.5 x the 36mbps bit-rate the 51gb TL disc actually has a a higher bit-rate (@ 54mbps) than Blu-ray.

.....but the instructions from BD central command are hilarious we all knew bit-rate wouls uddenly become your mantra (you left out not in the shops yet - but hinted at it with 'prototype'.....s'funny how a prototype is something approved as fully functional by the DVD Forum and not for PC burning.....so that's a few points deducted for not being an 'on message' little shill there Dave)

......and you can tell you're pissed off and really choked by this news as your English goes down the sh*tter.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 12:26 PM

Yep, that did it. If there was ever any shred of doubt about this person's intelligence in the past, it was finally put to rest with that gibberish.

$sql->Query("SELECT * FROM DaveBG WHERE clue != 0");
0 rows returned

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 12:36 PM

The fact that he is so stupid is what makes it fun to pick on him. I would love to go at it with someone of my intelligence but Steven Hawking is always busy.

As you can see, he somehow thinks BD has the cheapest player. LMAO at petition boy.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 1:15 PM

They're like kids or manic football fans, they don't care about the facts cos they either don't know them or are blind to them in their blinkered 'support' or 'love' and 'hate' for CE corporations.

It's pretty tragic really.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 1:21 AM

Disc size isnt so important tho comon :) HD-DVD side always argues that so you cant suddenly go on about how it now has the largest size disc.
And thats likely to be short lived, blu-ray can do the same.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 9, 2007 - 7:41 AM

"Disc size isnt so important tho comon :)"

- This is true - as we can see with the excellent 30gb HD DVD releases.....and the fact that (besides some noises from Disney) there is no demand for the big disc from the industry.

But it seems obvious that a few movies will use it, it just gives flexibility.

My own bet is that it becomes an option for people using the imminent HD DVD burners......ironically to burn Blu-ray rips of the remaining content not available on HD DVD.

" HD-DVD side always argues that so you cant suddenly go on about how it now has the largest size disc."

- Sure they can if they have it.

If the Blu-ray side are always going on about their 50gb disc it's perfectly legitimate for the HD DVD side to point out that they too offer this size.

- But that's nothing like the same as trying to pretend there is a huge 'need' for it.

"And thats likely to be short lived, blu-ray can do the same."

- In theory yes but in practice no.

Blu-ray is still having horrible problems replicating their dual layer 50gb disc (everyone but Sony are getting yields of about 10%.......even the 25gb single layer disc is said to be getting yields of only 70% - 80%.....whereas the more known HD DVD tech is getting 95% yields on their 30gb Dual layer discs).

So like I said, in theory the Blu-ray side can go for more layers but in practice they would cost so much (and need new hardware) that there is no practical point or incentive for them to do so.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 1:41 AM

I do see your point hehe
As for those yields is there any reliable source yet about that?
If that was true the cost of blu-ray discs selling currently must be at a terrible loss to stay around the HDDVD price. I cant see that being so.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 10, 2007 - 7:32 AM

Only the word from 'insiders' for the yields I'm afraid, whether you believe it or not is up to you......however the removal of the disc subsidy was one of the reasons Viacom/Paramount gave for dumping Blu-ray, so I'd say there is more reason for believing it than not.

(unless you want to go with the Bl;u-ray fanboys very own manufactured ridiculous rumour about how a major Hollywood giant could be 'bought' for a piffling - to them, they can take that in 1 week on a half decent release - $150 million.)

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 3:08 AM

"And thats likely to be short lived, blu-ray can do the same."

Heh, yeah... and more than likely leave an ever-growing group of poor saps with yet another generation of functionally-challenged BD players.

Score: 0

By siryak

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 12:36 AM

Ouch! Lets see Paramount goes HD-DVD,China is now going to get the prices down, and now the only thing Blu-Ray had left going for it which was space and bitrate is now no more. Blu-Ray is already in the hole and now the dirt is being shoveled back in. Oh and like Hocus said what was that you guys were saying about the 51GB disc never happening? Hate to break out the I told yah sos....Oh wait...No I don't. =p

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

edited Sep 8, 2007 - 9:12 PM

Hey loser (Dave),

I just got back from CEDIA in Denver, HD-DVD has a display specifically set up to show you how the first gen players supoord all of the HDi features on all movies, including the most recent ones.

Of course when BD-J comes out, all of the players purchased previously will not work with those features. What a shame.

The sony booth was pathetic, when I asked them when Transformers was coming out on Blu-Ray, they ganged up on me and tried to make me feel stupid, but what they didnt know was I was ****ing with them the whole time.

Now I see why you are the way you are, the whole Sony booth was a bunch of Dave clones. The HD-DVD trailer that is open to the public never mentioned Blu-Ray once during thier whole presentation, yet the BD fags couldnt stop talking about HD-DVD.

I have Blu-Ray demos from the dts-HD, Dolby DigitalHD, and the THX booth which I could let you have for a thousand dollars (US).

Sony was in desperation mode at the show with thier "HDNA" booth.

You may find something interesting I saw at the Digital Projection demo room, they were running a demo of POTC: At Worlds End with a Live Free or Die Hard segment that was being choreographed for use with D-Box. The player was stashed at the back of the room being run from a Crestron touch panel with a pre-programmed macro.

What was interesting is they went out of thier way to hide the player so no one could see it, yet it was a Toshiba XA2 running 1080p. You could see the native resolution tag for the OSD when the demo ended. Now, is it my imagination or does Disney and Fox support BD exclusively?

Now, we all know you are going to call BS and say I wasnt there and blah blah blah, so let's hear it.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 1:18 AM

Interesting that projection demo room... will see what happens if its true i guess
I tend to agree how sony talks about its competition instead of focusing on its own products. Its getting quite old and sad how they talk down everything :| (yep im well aware that others do also... but comon noone as much as sony)

Score: 0

By aredo

edited Sep 8, 2007 - 8:05 PM

Another useless and pathethic dirty marketing tactic of the Microsoft/Toshiba/DVD-Forum guys to force HD-DVD on customers, up to the point to allow China to spread their AVS ripoff of MPEG codecs officially. What a shame, really !

And anyway, the main association of chinese manufacturers recently joined the Blu-Ray association.. so...

->
http://www.infoworld.com...lu-ray-Disc-camp_1.html

Acer, China Huala Group join Blu-ray Disc camp
At the IFA consumer electronics show in Berlin, the Blu-ray Disc Association touted an increase in hardware partners as evidence that Blu-ray acceptance is growing

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 8, 2007 - 9:33 PM

Jeeezusss.

Even for a shill that was pathetic.

You can tell even some of you lot know it's all on the slide now.

Score: 0

By doctor50

edited Sep 8, 2007 - 6:45 PM

Here we go again! Handing everything over to the Chinese Communists on a silver platter to further dilute the already highly diluted industries of the Western World thanks, in the US at least to the Crapta trade agreements of the Clinton & two Bush administrations, to the greed of the western world's corporatists. The Red Chinese don't need a huge Blue Water navy or an army as large at the population of Western Europe. All they need are money-hungry greedy Westerners eager to snap up every Euro, Pound and US dollar by unloading China's lousy made and often contaminated products on the unsuspecting world market.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 8, 2007 - 2:58 PM

News just in......

The difference between a CH DVD player and a HD DVD player is firmware.....and a little logo on the case.

The hardware is the same.

Score: 0

By Steve Austin

posted Sep 8, 2007 - 7:27 PM

Link?

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Sep 8, 2007 - 10:28 PM

"Link?"

The difference between a CH DVD player and a HD DVD player was firmware.
Hardware is the same


http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0907/495410.shtml

"The Forum has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with China's Optical Memory National Engineering Research Centre (OMNERC) regarding licensing of the HD DVD-ROM China (formerly HD DVD-ROM China-only) format, specification for which was approved earlier this year.
The only difference between the latter and the standard HD DVD format is the modulation scheme: the optical pickup in HD DVD China player will be able to play standard HD DVD discs, although Chinese discs will not be playable in standard HD DVD drives."

http://www.screendigest....ates/vi-060907-ec3/show

Ha ha ha ha

Now what Steve?

How are you shills going to spin this one away?

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 12:45 PM

Where'd Steve go?

Hello Steve, Ray, Dave....whatever you're calling yourselves these days at the office.....where are you?

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Sep 9, 2007 - 9:23 PM

The Blu-ray.com Smurfs apparently ran out of responses in light of everything that has transpired recently, therefore rendering him speechless. He has no propaganda to spread like a bad case of herpes... for a little while, at least.

Score: 0