Holy CRAP! 2 Million Euros per day? LOL!

€100 A day wouldn't work for a company as big as MS. If that was the case it would pay fines until the end of time.

I dont understand why they (Microsoft) cant be professional and abide to whatever international law exists? They are there for a reason. What would they do if the situation were reversed? I bet you anything they want the parties to abide to their international laws too.

Why is US allergic to international law?

Some of you Americans don't seem very logical:

Microsoft -- regardless of who owns it and where it is HQed -- sells products in the EU and must follow EU laws if it wishes to continue selling there. An American court would be acting outside of its jurisdiction if it essentially allows Microsoft to violate European corporate law while doing business in Europe.

And when the EU won't allow a company to provide proof of compliance? Then what?

When the options are:

leave.

Pay a daily fine that amounts to extortion.

Seek Help from interested outside parties.

I'd go with the third any day.

Here's the option you always forget, comply and provide complete and usable documentation to the server protocols.

Woosh...wow you missed the point yet again.

MS is contesting that they HAVE complied. The EU disagrees and throws roadblocks up to MS trying to prove that it has...so if you can't appeal to a higher authority the next bet is to appeal to a *different* authority. Try reading before flaming it will cut down on your embarrassment.

But Man, read what you just wrote about ISO ... it "replicates reliably" no matter if the quality that is contained "inside" the ISO is good or bad, it is "replicated reliably" that's what ISO is about ... so in fact the ISO standard IS about quality ... not about what you throw inside the ISO, they could actually care less what you put inside the ISO just as long as it gets replicated reliably. So, it sounds like your example really isn't a good one ... or one at all ...

I do agree about the regulations ... they're not simply market neutral. He who has the most influence (be it money or other), usually wins out. And protectionism works in ALL directions ... including the US.

I wouldn't say the EU is throwing up roadblocks, I'd be more inclined to say that the EU isn't allowing MS to "buy off" ways to show they complied. There is no different authority there, I love it.

Don't get me wrong, without MS, we would not be where we are today. The MS team had the vision and the right place at the right time going for them to make them what they've become today. However, I don't agree with many of their business practices. But you do have to hand it to them for basically bringing the entire world closer together, but in turn, it also doesn't give them the right to ruin other companies ...

Nope... i've just read that there is some STUPID law in the US that purely excists to help companies in lawsuits abroad.

Sorry for me getting angry but MS should get a 200 million euro higher fine for just trying this ****ed up load of crap. I believe the US has weapons of mass destruction (and my information is right)... why not invade them and liberate the people of it's undemocratic rulers.
Maybe I got out of line with this but I never thought the US could sink this far.

"Because it's easier"; as Bush said, and I quote; "to be a dictator".

That argument works both ways. Your assuming that MS is trying to avoid complying. I'll take the opposite assumption that the EU is trying it's best to shake down MS for whatever it can get. You should not assume MS is trying to be underhanded any more then I should assume the EU is. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

If you felt an unfair judgement was levied against you in court, would you not explore whatever avenue was open to you in order to find recourse to the law? MS feels the judgement that they aren't complying isn't fair, so therefore they explored a potential avenue of recourse. They got shot down, but you can't fault them for trying if they genuinely feel they are being railroaded.

If, on the other hand, it comes out that MS is knowingly trying to avoid compliance then by all means, levy even harder fines on them.

"[removed stupid ignorant remarks]
Maybe I got out of line with this but I never thought the US could sink this far."

Sink how far? By saying "no" to Microsoft? Sorry but I fail to see how MS going to US courts for aid and getting told "no" is somehow the US governments fault.

"Sink how far? By saying "no" to Microsoft? Sorry but I fail to see how MS going to US courts for aid and getting told "no" is somehow the US governments fault."

No, for having such law in the first place. MS also nearly won but lost because of their "repeated assertions".
The judge has done a good job but the people who made and voted for this law and govern your country are idiots!!

*shrug* America doesn't have a monopoly on idiotic laws or morons in power. Look at France and the stupid labor laws over there. The government goes and tries to partially fix the problem and all hell breaks loose. Not to pick on France, every country has stupid laws on the books and people in positions of power that shouldn't be. Just the nature of things. Trying to generalize that it's all over here in the US just makes you look ignorant and bigoted.

yep most sensible post in this topic

Man, people talk about international law like it is a bunch of statutes. Well it isn't.

It's a bunch of treaties, and only members to the treaty (I.E. signatores) are bound by that treaty.

I hadn't heard that the EU was recognized as an sovereign nation by the UN or NATO or any other organization, except perhaps the EU itself, and that doesn't count, unless they have a treaty with the members of the UN.

I haven't done any research about this but I can imagine that because all of the different member states of the EU do have those treaties the EU probably doesn't need those treaties itself. The different member states just follow the policy that the EU set out.

These comments remind me of an old Dead Milkmen song.

Something about a zoo.

heh

Pretty generalized statement. Can't believe I'm asking you this but...well you haven't talked alot about this recently. What's your current take on this, fewt?

Microsoft needs to quit trying to find loopholes in the law and comply. The US isn't going to help them fight a battle being waged in the EU and they shouldn't.

If Microsoft wants these documents then they need to get an EU based court to order it instead of trying to bend the rules.

I bet you didn't google my comment, you are still in your chair.

heh

Why Google it? It's on my playlist.

Can't believe someone else still listens to the Dead Milkmen.

Nope, got off work before I read your response though...

It's a good song.

heh

It's not on my playlist these days, hmm maybe I should rethink that though.

:-D

yea still pretty popular band around these parts

Two things. One, this is another case of dumb-a** judges imposing international law on a USA company. If they love the EU so much, pack your bags, here's your ticket, see ya, don't let the door hit you on the way out. They should be using the Constitution of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to decide if they can allow the documents, not the regulations of some other nation. (And yes, in this case the EU does represent a "nation").

Secondly, MS should just pull up lock stock and barrell in the EU. Turn off all sales, shut down all support and lay off every employee.

The backlash alone on that one would get every citizen in the EU yelling for the courts to drop their ridiculous case. For crying out loud. So what if IE or WIMP ships with XP?

How may people actually use just WIMP? I personally use about four different players and I'm sure others do the same, so there's no competition there. As for IE, whether it's the best now or not is immaterial. It was the best at the time and now 90+% of sites are written to use this brower (I'm guessing at this number, it's probably higher). So who gives a rats butt? If you don't like it, use Firefox, Mozilla, Netscape, Opera - there are so many choices - how can they claim it's a monopoly.

I say be done with the EU, let them all install Linux, run Safari or whatever the heck runs under Linux and be done with it. (Yeah, that'll happen)

Hmm, maybe this sounds harsh... could be, but I'm sticking to my plan, MS pulls out and the EU comes begging, "Please sir, might I have IE".

Just a wee reminder, The US isn't the center of the world. The US Constitution doesn't apply to anywhere outside of the US. Most certainly not in the EU courts.
secondly, MS needs the EU market more than the EU needs MS. MS leaves the EU, Linux takes over EU and MS doesn't want that....

Just to let you know...who saved who's butts in WWII....umm...probably the people that really are the center of the world, the USA.

Microsoft "needs" nothing and no one.

And we're thankful about that but it hasn't anything to do with this. By the way it was in the US' own interests that they've helped us over here.

MS needs customers for a starter. After that it needs a better company image because it's at an all-time low right now.
And once and for all MS can't pull out of the EU. At first it would be a disaster and people would need to get used to the alternatives. But after some years, running your old XP pc or illegal copies of Vista (they couldn't sue over here anymore), people get used to Linux or Apple and in the meanwhile there will be enough programs for those OS' that are lacking now.
Besides the image of MS will drop around the world and more customers are going to use the alternatives. where one sheep goes, follows another.

I hate to use the word moron, but in your case theres just no alternative.

You are a moron !!

OMG...I'm FROM the US and I'm sick of this stupid comment. Who saved who 60 ****ing years ago? What kind of retard are you? Were you even alive back then? Did you partake on the front lines doing the saving? No I didn't think so, so sit down and shut up.

"By the way it was in the US' own interests that they've helped us over here."

Oh yea, and that to. Going to war was a major boost to our economy not to mention the fact that if we hadn't we probably would have been the next target. People seem to forget that the US wasn't a super power back then.

In answer to your first point Billweh ... what are you smoking dude? I want some. I mean .. the EU is not imposing ... think way back before you took a draw off that pipe man, MS went over there ... the EU did NOT come over here. Sorry to tell you this Dude but when you leave the good ol' US of A, you have to follow "their" rules (where ever you went) and NOT US rules ...

On your second point ... Hmm, me thinks that must be some really good stuff in that pipe yer smoking ... mind passin it around? LOL ... Oh yeah, back to the second point ... Are you old enough to remember the anti-trust case against MS for the "browser" affair? You know ... the one that they lost ... err, bought ... or however you look at it??? Anyhow, it's pretty much the same thing they're doing over in the EU, except with WMP instead of IE ... Maybe you should do some research there.

And like sooo many people have already said, the EU doesn't really need MS nearly as much as MS needs the EU ...

I'm sorry but I don't understand if you're being sarcastic here or not. English isn't my first language. Your arguements just don't add up (either way).

Not sarcasm. Agreement. We (the US) got involved in WW2 because it was in our best interest to, as you pointed out. I'm just sick of people like the guy above who seems to think that Europe owes the US a debt until the end of time for the US doing what it should have done even earlier.

Ok. I thought so but I couldn't place the last sentence of the US not being a super power back then.

Edit: now I get it (wasn't quite awake yet); it probably was against the-US-being-the-center-of-the-world-remark above.

So how does this work? AMD can subpoena Micrsoft, but no one else can return the favor?

Wow, what a great country we have here. . . .

did AMD subpoena MS for a court case against another country?

Herein lies the problem. As you are so used to personal attacks, it makes no logical sense for MS to try to defend themselves only for the sake of defending themselves. Therefore, Microsoft is AGAINST another country, right? (EU is a country now???) This has nothing to do with one nation fighting another, where are you getting this? Try looking at things objectively for a change.

" (EU is a country now???) "

EU=European Union
sure sounds like they represent European ideals to me.

Europe is not a country though! France, England, Scotland--those are countries.

Can't believe I have to explain that...

lmao...

You new here?

I did't think i had defined Europe as a country.
maybe i needed to clarify. the EU represents about 25 countries in all, as far as i know, not all the countries in europe. but they all share common ideals in the EU, which again, represent COUNTRIES. my point remains the same.

Man, you pick at some pretty pathetic things. maybe that means you can't dispute my arguement.

You're obviously right about that but just to set something straight. The European Union has sovereignty about certain matters just like a normal country. This is the fact in the MS antitrust case.
On a whole lot of other matters the EU doesn't have anything to say about the policies and laws of its member states.

it doesnt matter who they are facing, they could be facing god for all anyone cares a subpoena is a subpoena, doenst matter who it is for or who it is against. it is to gather information for a case in a court of law there are no conditions on what cases you can do it for, all you need is a valid reason for a certain type of information from a certain source, and of course approval to get that. so basically your argument is s***.

AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

serves em right!

just so you "Americans" understand this. the EU isn't telling microsoft what to do with their product in the US of A, they're telling them what to do with it in Europe. they have their own set of laws, their own idea of what is right and wrong, and it's not up to microsoft or any American judge to say otherwise.

Microsoft needs to either pull out, or comply.

honestly, i see American corporations starting a war because of crap like this. or at the very least, other countries banning American companies from legally selling product in their country.

Do *NOT* come in here, and start this you "americans" s***. Keep that stuff on that side of the ocean, you European twit.

This has nothing to do AT ALL with US "Americans" you moron. This has to do with the EU commission and their stance on their apathetic, one-sided, short minded goals. So lets get the facts straight, there wanker, pepe, frenchy, European loser.

Actually, Canadian eh.
but for some reason i undestand that each country has a right to do things their own way, and an army to back it up.
so, maybe keep your one sided, money hungry, American ways in your borders, and show some respect when dealing with foreign matters.

ps:i still enjoy sharing music with my friends without being sued. suckers!

That's good for you. Steal all you want, blab on and on to yorself that it isn't truly stealing, and do your own thing. Whether here on earth or in the afterlife, you will be held accountable--whether or not you believe so.

rijp was a little edgey with his remarks perhaps, but that gives you no right to generalize Microsoft and a few guys on betanews.com as representing America as a whole. How can you know what Microsoft, or America for that matter, truly deserves? You must be the expert in your country, right? Canadian leaders must call you for advice before doing anything with the United States then?

Money hungrey? Yep, there's a bunch of money hungrey americans. I know a few people from Canada that are money hungrey too--but I don't bash Canada just because of a handful of "twits" that I've come accross from that country. Quit over-generalizing.

ummm isn't this post about Microsoft? an American company? trying to push their "American" (sorry, but i don't know who else Microsoft represnts) ideals into other countries. but, i suppose it's not all Americans, after all, the "American" judges didn't rule in favor for them.
and if you don't think my opinion counts, then what are you doing posting?
I apologise for generalizing "Americans", just keep having the slogan "the American way" repeating in my mind. I suppose my problem is with all corporations who think that everyone has to do things their way just because they have money and influence.

oh, and the only thing that makes sharing music illegal are your laws. what i do with a product once i buy it is my business. no harm, no foul.

you know, my grandma still writes recepies down for me, most come from a cookbook. should she be sued for copyright infringement?

We wouldnt be having these problems if the EU Commision didnt consist of a bunch of (donkey butts).

The EUC just plain out sucks.

[Go Microsoft!] =P

rijp:
Very nicely said, I must say, nice job. :)

BUT THE EU IS NOT A COUNTRY!

But the main problem is, is the EU wants trade secrets. Companies arnt going to survive with making an operating system that cost $200 (we'll say) that comes from 100% source code. If that happens, then theres no trade secrets so theres no competing.

> Companies arnt going to survive with making an
> operating system that cost $200 (we'll say)
> that comes from 100% source code.

Making an operating system costs $200? Surely making Windows cost more then that? And I will let you in on another little secret: any computer software "comes from 100% source code".

> If that happens, then theres no trade secrets so theres no competing.

Competition is perfectly fine without existence of trade secrets. In fact, it is much better without them.

great so you come from a country with no actual achievments of any kind, much less any ideas or culture that they havent absorbed from their parent countries, then proceed to ridicule the views of those countries in a topic which your country doesnt even have the least bit of relavence to your country, good job jackass. i hope your failing economy collapses soon and none of said parent countries bails you out.

do you know what you are talking about, or are you just mad?

Sounds unfair...

I wonder what will any of us do if we were the CEO of these companies. LOL

ABANDON SHIP!! :)

"...would circumvent and undermine the law of the European Community concerning how a litigant may obtain third-party documents."

That was the point. EU said no, so MS is trying to ask the US for help. It may "undermine" the EU law, but if it is legal here, then it is legal. The fact that the judge even brings this up implies that he judges outside of law, instead siding with whomever has the best intentions.

This is another biased judge who follows his own reasoning rather than following the letter of the law. The bench is made for judges, not philosophers. Perhaps the law says MS has no right to see the documents. That's great, MS should be banned from seeing them. The problem here isn't the decision--it's the process.

"Wolf also admitted that, at first, he had been leaning towards siding with the Redmond company. However, Microsoft's repeated assertions that the European Commission lacked any authority to bar Microsoft from seeing the documents changed his mind."

OMG. The judge admitted he is incapable of removing personal feelings and presuppositions regarding the matter. He just admitted he was biased from the beginning. Microsoft "repeatedly" asserted "that the European Commission lacked any authority to bar Microsoft from seeing the documents", so Microsoft must be wrong. Where does the law say that "repeatedly asserting" anything is illegal? This judge needs to be relieved of his duties, period.

If the documents suuport or prove their compliance, then yes, they have a right to request those documents in court, and it should be up to the holders of those documents to decide wether to release them or not.

This is just another attempt by the EU to block any attempt MS makes to comply.

Arguing they have not complied, and then refusing to allow them to prove they have is asinine.

"This is just another attempt by the EU..."

Not even close, this was A U.S. District Court judge in Boston who said this is between MS and the EU and doesn't belong in a US court.

What this is is the end of another attempt by Microsoft to wriggle out of it's obligations. It doesn't matter if it's competitors are snickering behind it's back, Microsoft still has to produce usable documentation for it's server protocols.

Which they claim to have done, and are *trying* to provide evidence of. The EU slammed the door in their faces.

Telling a company trying to hand you evidence of compliance to "talk to the hand" is patently absurd.

So MS believes that documentation between its competitors and the EU should proof that MS supplied enough documetation about its server protocols. Come on... what a load of BS!

then why not let them havve their information and prove them idiots then? maybe the eu is afraid that microsoft may have something perhaps?

"why not let them havve their information"

Other people's emails are private and there is no way to rationally imagine someone else's private correspondence had anything to do with Microsoft's failure to produce usable documentation.

The one thing the EU wants from Microsoft is usable documentation for it's server protocols. That has not changed.

Because we care, unlike the US-past-patriot-act, about privacy.

which is dumb for ms to have to give out in the first place, it should be there choice, there is no documentation from microsoft anywhere saying it has to let anything but microsoft programs work on windows period. it is ridiculous, if they want to make something work flawlessly then they can do like ms and build an os.

"A U.S. District Court judge in Boston said Monday that allowing Microsoft to obtain documents from Novell would undermine European Union law."

I call BS.

If AMD can call on MS for their case, why is MS not allowed to do the same?

I suppose it's one way to prove they're aren't in compliance...simply don't allow them to show proof to the contrary.

*If AMD can call on MS for their case, why is MS not allowed to do the same?*

Two words: American Justice. This is the EU showing their dumb ass.

AMD is trying in American court, evidently our justice system isn't as screwed up as others would have us believe. At least WE know how to make it fair. I say MS should just call a UN meeting, and declare this a mistrial.

It is *SOOOOOO* obvious the EU is being BLATANTLY biased, its not even funny.

I would tell MS, blow off the EU, and we can make this a World Wide problem. This is getting to the point of rediculous.

"why is MS not allowed to do the same?*"

They are and they did and the EU said that has nothing to do with the quality of your documents.

Then MS tried again, in a different country, that has nothing do with this case, and that country, the US, said "go away this has nothing to do with our country."

Do you understand now? EU has it's own laws and courts.

Who's biased??

Most of these comments are from wafflelonia. MS is trying to use US law to undermine European Law, except the US courts are not competent (no US law is in contention) or party in this case....how many more empty assertions do we need about them (MS) being above board, whilst most always proven to be below the belt...MS has no business ethics, never had and never will have, each time having to be arm wrestled to fez up.

The case between MS and AMD for one is different than the one in the EU ...

2) Why does everyone seemingly have to call other countries stupid because they don't like how they operate or whatever reason?

Frankly, I don't see the EU as "biased" as you say, I see them far more fair than the U.S. is ... apparently you have not looked around and seen what runs the U.S. ... maybe you should. Why hasn't the US helped those after the Katrina storm yet? Where did we come up with the money to help those in the next storm overseas??? Interesting that we had money to help foriegn nations yet not help ourselves isn't it? What does the president have his money sunk into? why do we not have alternative fuel sources??? Why are we in IRAQ ? The same principle applies to MS and the EU, why is MS over there? Don't get me wrong, MS has great ideas, but I think they should start using there great ideas instead of buying it like they have in the past. Why do you think Linux is gaining popularity? it's one thing that MS can't actually "buy" at anytime.

I'm American born and bred but I sure see a lot of things that definitely need to be fixed. I don't think we're better than any other country out there, in fact I think that at times we should probably just mind our own business to be truthful.

MS cannot "blow off" the EU as you say, the customer base they have there is HUGE. 90% of the worlds internet population runs MS ... you don't think that those 90% are here I hope ... lol ...

As for "American Justice" ... hmm, move up to the year 2000 as there really isn't anything that comes close to what it used to mean, take a look around you ... WHat we're doin in IRAQ is not American Justice, we're preserving the President's investments ... Not our country's investments ... sigh ...

Peace out ...

dont make this a political bulls*** topic, there are more than enough complain about politics forums out there, use them, we dont want to hear how you hate this war, or that president, keep it out of here we dont care.

a note about polotics, they are what run the world. If you don't like um' too bad.

The polotics of MS being over in the EU is in its self is a mess. Redmend looks like the windows 95+ OS's so of course MS wants the code. They want to own there GUI(Graphical User Interface) and all code that makes up look alikes to there OS.

Dude, you're in the wrong forum if you don't like politics. What do you think MS Vs EU is?

All I did was to point out things, didn't offer to tell you how I felt about them (you read too much into that), You obviously need to step back and breathe some fresh air...

yes this is ms vs. eu not us vs eu get it straight. american corperations DO NOT represent america and the same goes for other countries thus there was no reason to bring up s*** about america on that post, all america did was tell ms the same thing the eu did, that was the only thing they did in this case

no i dont mind politics, i mind people deciding that a company with a s***ty reputation is constantly associated with representing our country. not all of us act like bill and the vole do.