RSSStudios Take Claims of AACS Crack Seriously
By Scott M. Fulton, III | Published December 29, 2006, 4:55 PM
After a daring programmer evidently seeking notoriety posted a relatively convincing looking homemade video to YouTube on Wednesday, purportedly showing an HD DVD video disc with AACS copy protection being cracked on a Windows-based system, a spokesperson for the AACS Licensing Authority told Reuters this morning it is seriously investigating the legitimacy of the claim.
It was the AACS LA that released last February - after production of high-definition disc components had already begun - interim specifications for how high-definition content must be formatted and organized to enable protection from components that will utilize AACS copy protection. The first wave of HD DVD and Blu-ray disc players did not implement AACS in full; most notably, they omitted the Internet-oriented clearing house scheme for mandatory managed copy (MMC), which AACS LA now says is optional.
But the key component of AACS is an advanced disc encryption scheme whose relative impermeability has actually been overstated more by those who would seek to crack the scheme rather than protect it. Over the past year, AACS LA has presented a surprisingly pragmatic viewpoint about the possibility, if not the inevitability, of the encryption scheme being cracked.
Yet AACS is a more complex scheme than its CSS predecessor for DVD, in that it enables new encryption mechanisms to be adopted and even retrofitted to existing firmware, if and when existing mechanisms are cracked. So one unexplored question in the wake of news that a fellow calling himself "Muslix64" has cracked the encryption mechanism on at least one, perhaps two, HD DVD discs, is whether the "self-healing" nature of the broader AACS scheme will minimize the damage from this crack, as it was originally designed to do.
Higher-level spokespersons for AACS LA have been contacted by BetaNews, and may become available after the holidays.
Partial source code for Muslix64's purported tool, called BackupHDDVD, was posted to a file posting service, which has mirrored access to the file. Members of a highly frequented DVD technologists' forum were able to obtain access to the Java code package, and have commented that it appears to be legitimate.
Based on BetaNews' analysis of the material seen thus far, if Muslix64's description of his eight-day task is accurate, then whether he actually, formally "cracked AACS" could be called into question. Promising to reveal more after the holidays - probably after stories such as this one have made the rounds - Muslix64 wrote that, in trying to adapt a method for his PC-based HD DVD drive to play a movie through his non-HDCP compliant video card to his new high-def monitor (a feat many high-def PC users are indeed technologically prohibited from doing), he discovered after learning how AACS works from publicly available documentation that the title key - the principal component the studios use to encrypt and decrypt the disc masters - are retrieved from the disc by his HD DVD player software, and then stored in an unencrypted portion of memory. In the video, that player software is revealed to be CyberLink PowerDVD 6.5 HD DVD Edition.
One element of the AACS scheme that distinguishes it from CSS is its use of a separate decryption key, called the revocation key because it can be revoked by the AACS clearing house in the event that discs using that key have been cracked. The result is supposed to be that the once-cracked media becomes unreadable by AACS-endowed players connected to the Internet.
If Muslix64's description is correct, then CyberLink may have committed a major blunder: Its implementation could actually leave the title key exposed, which a player could use instead of the revocation key for decryption of a copied disc, thereby bypassing at least one "self-destruct" feature.
"The title keys are located on the disk in encrypted form," Muslix64 writes in the Readme file for his BackupDVD utility, "but for a content to be played, it has to be decrypted! So where is the decrypted version of the title key?" He later answers his own question: within a database-formatted configuration file that PowerDVD at some point loads into memory, apparently in the clear. Elsewhere, the Readme file advises users to restrict their use of the program to HD DVD discs whose content they already rightfully own.
But even Muslix64's explanations leave open one possibility: that the title key exposure could be limited to just a few HD DVD discs.
"The design is not that bad," Muslix64 writes, referring to AACS, "but it's too easy to have an insecure player implementation somewhere. And just one bad implementation is all it needs to get the keys!...And the 'Revocation system' is totally useless if you use the Title key directly."
Conceivably, an insecure player implementation may not expose the title keys from every HD DVD disc, especially since AACS implementations have been evolving from their interim versions in February to reportedly more rigid, recent versions in recent months.
Nonetheless, the revelation of a new and perhaps successful attempt to back up HD DVD content to a more flexible form will, no doubt, resurrect the old arguments over individuals' rights to the content they purchase. Do they truly own the content they buy, and if so, how can they then be legally restricted from taking care of it by backing it up safely and securely? Or is the distribution of digital content via videodisc a form of "extended lease," whose terms of use can be protected and enforced automatically by copy protection schemes and digital rights management systems whose integrity can be likened to that of the most illustrious sandcastles? It's beginning to look a lot like 2007 will look and sound a lot like 2006.
It seems everyone has their view on this matter, and i find it interesting to see everyone's angle.
I will be holding off untill the war is sorted out, but i see no reason to upgrade my pioneer dvd player or my sony tv due to them being 5 years old to have a improved picture while this mess is being dragged out.
A lot of people will be caught out in this war, as to who wins or can survive the mess is to be decided unless they try to make a standard format again before they all walked away.
And as my dvd collection is over the 100+ disc i will not even consider wasting my money untill my player dies and my tv for that matter.
I can see sony's view here, get people to buy a bd or ps3 and then get them to buy one of their tvs once they work out their current tv will not give them the full bd features.
I think sony are beating on this to happen as their financal woes still continue will be sweating on it.
And the copy protection will be cracked on both sides sooner or later, anything that be engineered can be easily reversed engineered.
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|You know if the Industry really does not want movies to be played or backed up on computers how about they go the way of laserdisc. Now I have a few of these, (as well as a beta machine and a CED machine, & naturally a VHS, god help me) with large collections of movies for each as well as DVD. And to this day many directors like George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, and many others still release major movies on laserdisc in a very hard to find directors cut LD.
Now flash forward to 2007, HD-DVD and Blueray DVD and the new format from MGM that is to be able to play on both drives. OH boy just what we need a third format. So in that spirit I recommend a 4th format with a new size disc to solve the problem.
A Disc the size of an old 45 record in the new HD format of your choice. Bingo Now you got a player that uses a new disc size and a new format and a new player. Problem solved. Now there is no need to fuss over computers making copies and no need to fuss over the HDMI or NO HDMI issue... The capacities are far out of the capacity of a standard OR HD DVD/CD sized disc and as such not directly copyable without a AVCHD45 (Advanced Video Codec High Definition) sized copy device, which would be highly controlled.
Then if you want a copy of a AVCHD45 to a standard DVD with compression, no more big deal right? Well there shouldn't be. But the industry as a whole KNOWS that such a move would damage their stance on piracy because they have no one left to blame for their problems but themselves. And that is something the industry can't afford. For if all thats left is to blame themselves, then MAYBE they will need to step up and change their business models to match the consumer demand.
For those wondering because of its larger size and possibility even double sided ability, a AVCHD45 would store in the neighborhood of 120GB capacity using the same encoding algorithm that HD-DVD does with a larger platter to record on. Thats per side mind you, single layered. And that my friends is HUGE! And a machine like this could easily house a center platter that would read regular DVDs as well. Heck it could even house a separate DVD-RW tray that read a Normal DVD ISO from the larger AVCHD45 and make an authorized backup of lesser quality to DVD in a few seconds if you really wanted to get creative.
So there you have it. A solution if the industry would have taken the time to think of it, that would have made everyone happy from the beginning. Of course now its somewhat too late, BIG SURPRISE! because they already have these formats out there and machines for reading them. It would have made since only once to make a new format and new player but they missed that boat once again. Just as they did with VHS and laserdiscs the first time.
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|http://www.engadget.com/...-version-1-0-is-release/
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|I think many of us keep forgetting the PC end of this whole thing. We all talk about movies and the quality.. What about data storage and the ability to burn say 10 normal DVD movies on 1 disc? HDDVD and Bluray burners are coming down in price every month. By this time next year we will be seeing a $150.00 burner with $9.99 discs.
Its really not about who is better. Its about who is cheaper in price (as far as computer burners go). I sell burners for a living - and the average consumer would by a peice of dog crap if it was cheap enough and was stampped 18x speed.
Even if HD and Bluray completely drops off the face of the Home Entertainment earth - its a god send for computer storage - and will be here for a very very long time.
Whoever is cheapest in price - will win.. period.
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|I fully agree. Definitly blu-ray is the best solution for data storage in the future, although a lot of peeps here will argue that buying more Hard drives is a better choice.
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|I completely disagree: consumers are wanting stability and reliability over the long term, not just affordability. Speed is always preferred in everything pertaining to the computer. Look at what OASIS OpenDocument Format (ODF) has done for office documents. It allows people to use any word processor or office suite to access their documents — forever — rather than forcing them to buy into one proprietary format (OXML) by one corporation (Microsoft) using one suite (Microsoft Office).
I'd suggest everyone wait for three more years before ditching their DVDs, as something much better and bigger will have replaced Blu-Ray and HD-DVD by then, DRM-free, too.
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|No need for movie studios to worry on the PS3 blu-ray side. Movies play back at 480p anyways.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars
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|True HD-DVD XBox desperate fanboy talk if ever I heard it.
The article clearly mentions Mission Impossible playing in 1080p (via HDMI on the PS3 and VGA on the Xbox360), even mentions looking sharper on the Blu-Ray.
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|"mentions looking sharper on the Blu-Ray."
dont recall that here. Main point on the article was that it looks the same on both formats.
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|If this crack really is true, it's the final nail in the HD-DVD coffin. No studio wants to support a cracked format. Whilst Blu-Ray also support AACS, it also has additional protection..
On the surface this looks like good news for end users, but the reality is, it could well be the end of the format war...
http://www.thedvdwars.com
PS. Anyone else notice Blu-Ray is about to overake HD-DVD on the Top 10 Salesrank... Even funnier, is the numbers have shot up since the PS3 launched. There were some muppets here who seemed to think the PS3 would not affect the HD-DVD / Blu-Ray format war...
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|Sorry, Dave
"The PS3 has no internal hardware scaler"
http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars/2
"There is no real difference in quality based on what I've seen between HD DVD and Blu-ray. Keep in mind that unless your display can handle a 1080p or 1080i resolution the PS3 will downgrade the image into 480p"
http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars/3
You can claim all you want about the problem being on non HDMI TV's. But unfortunately for Sony most early adopters only have componenet HDTV's, maybe Sony will have better with their next console. Unless they drop video games all together this time around.
EDIT: PS If this keeps up..
http://www.aeropause.com.../01/tekken_6_exclus.php
Then PS3 is more than doomed, they already lost GT4 and Virtua Fighter 5. And Metal Gear 4 is rumored to follow soon too. Tee hee.
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|Give it a rest, your making yourself look a fool.
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|Youve stated very persuasive points... LOL
My point was that even if it can play 1080p, most consumers are screwed because they will be downscaled to 480p eitheryway, since most have componenet outputs.
Before you speak next time, have something worse saying, like a rebutle with FACTS, a link, or something.
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|1/ Most HD sets have HDMI, which is preferred over component, as analog interconnects are from the 70's
2/ It's INPUTS, not OUTPUTS.
3/ most importantly, the PS3 can perfectly do 720p over component from Blu-Ray, for movies and games, to say it downscales to 480p is a pure lie, What you mean to say, is if the set cannot accept the desired format, it will downscale, rather than upscale. The fact your TV does not support the intended resolutions is the problem here, not the PS3. Anyway, this affects so few people, it's barely an issue..
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|1/ "Most HD sets have HDMI"
You have me fooled, of the 2 friends I have with 3 year old HDTV's both only have componenet inputs. I have HDMI because I just got the damn thing 7-8 months ago.
2/ Output from the source buddy, I wasnt refering to the TV inputs. Only the outputs most consumers have. Just because PS3 has an HDMI output doesnt mean that consumers will be using HDMI.
3/ "The fact your TV does not support the intended resolutions is the problem here, not the PS3."
Hmm, you figure Sony would have thought of this before not including an internal hardware scaler.
"Anyway, this affects so few people, it's barely an issue.."
Read 1/
Eitherway I'd like to see your source of this information. Because I know from personal experience that most early adopters only have component inputs on their HDTVs
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|You answered your own question there, when you mentioned early adopters. Early adopters ALWAYS get stung, does not matter what.
My TV aready does perfectly good upscaling and downscaling, why should I want another one in my PS3? My Panasonic Plasma does 720p, 1080i and 1080p, but the panel only does 1366 x 768, so it accepts 1080p, and adjusts accordingly.
The problem is, most people are clueless about what the PS3 can and can't do, and what it should and shouldn't do. I have seen all sorts of claims, so of them from yourself, like "PS3 blu-ray side. Movies play back at 480p anyways.", which is only true if the TV set cannot play the required format. Anything that displays 1080i or 1080p will play Blu-Ray movies at those resolutions just fine.
My 16yr old black and white TV, would also scale back to 480p, should Sony have cateted for that somehow?
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|"Early adopters ALWAYS get stung, does not matter what."
LOL, you realize that early adopters are people with like 3-4 year old HDTV's? Those are the people that buy stuff when its new, the people are more prone to buying new technology. The people that care whether or not their content will be downscaled. Its fine and dandy for you and me, our equipment is newer. But to say that most people will not have problems is just dumb, when in fact they will.
"My 16yr old black and white TV,"
I was unaware that old CRT TV's were considered HDTV's, who knew?
P.S. Is that you Marky?
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|Early adopters are at risk of getting stitched, here they got stitched, they bought HD TV's before the industry decided what it wanted it do.
Whilst it's very tempting to adopt a new technology, the wise pick the right time, when prices are good, and formats are decided. I only jumped on HD, when Plasmas has matured, and I could see that my panel did HDMI, 1080i, 1080p and 720p, there was no room for getting stiched.
"P.S. Is that you Marky?"
No, but I'm sure you think that every person that disagrees with you, must be Marky..
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|My original post was about PS3 screwing up, so lets keep it at that level. I'm sticking to my statement that Sony is screwing most people with HDTV's by not having an internal hardware scaler.
"No, but I'm sure you think that every person that disagrees with you, must be Marky."
No just people that dont backup their statements with facts. Marky is notorious for it, so I ask again. Are you Marky?
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|That site is a LIAR!!!!!!! There is no way Blu-Ray is catching up with HD-DVD!!!!!
Look like one of your posts Dave? By the way, the shadow Hollywood thing is old, I'm even bored with it.
The crack works for BD and HD-DVD by the way. It takes something like this for Dave to crawl out of his cave and finally post something....in my user name.
I am so tired of both formats and their DRM, I hope they both fail. If you read some of my posts you will already see I linked to dvdwars saying the exact same thing you said. BD is not quite even yet but coming up fast.
The longer I have owned BD, the more I see the problems, mainly with artifacting and poor quality. I hope they can fix this but I think the whole format has problems all the way from the players to the software.
Remember, you don't own a BD player or a single movie by your own admission. You have no right to say anything about either format because you don't support them. You probably go around bashing Bush but didn't take the time to vote.
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|What I don't get is why the studios didn't think this would happen. A lot of the hackers in the world are more intelligent than all the people at MS, Apple, LInux, and every other tech company.
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|I don't seriously think for a second that they thought the tech was bulletproof. I mean, they're not the brightest bulbs in the world because they can't seem to let go of an outdated business model, but I have a hard time believing they're actually that stupid.
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|PC_tool? they are that stupid.
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|I think maybe what surprised them was how quickly it happened.
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|TO quote The Man...
WEll, if you say it...it must be true..
;-)
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|I am God (oops time to take my meds).
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|Flaw in Firefox 2.0.0.1: Memory Access Violation
PoC exploit:
It is available under the following address:
http://sapheal.cybersecu...imple/ddarko_ABCDE.html
I must say I know there's much more of such vulnerabilities in FF. One of those is below (this is an access violation vulnerability):
http://www.securityfocus.../1/455635/30/0/threaded
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|what???
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|"Build it and they will come!"
The more protection they place on media, the more people will want to "crack" it. If someone, or some group, developed a copy protection scheme, there will always be some method of "cracking" it. It is "human nature" to be challenged and for some this is their ultimate goal.
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|It's interesting that major movie studios promote DVDs with the line "Yours to own on DVD", and then elsewhere contradict themselves by claiming that buyer's don't in fact own anything, but are leasing it. Presumably with HD DVD they should be saying "Yours on extended lease on HD DVD, with punative terms and conditions attached, and we'll set the dogs on you if you step out of line".
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|What these people need to do is the same thing Microsoft does for its software--have a Certificate Of Authenticity.
Why? So that people in forums like these understand the concept of ownership in the digital world. It may sound stupid and unimportant, but just think about it--it is so much easier to explain that you own an authorized copy by showing that barcode label with the serial number on it than it is to show the movie itself.
I'm not saying we should have a product key (heck no!) for movies, just a COA. That helps us, the consumers, better understand what owning media is about. Whomever has the COA legally owns the movie--whomever does not, well they better not have a copy of the movie.
Then there's dealing with lost COA's--but then again, losing the COA would not prevent the movie from playing. This really could work.
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|I know you are referring to "media" but what you are effectifly saying is that if I take the VIN tag from your car I would then own your car. It still runs and you can drive it, but I own it because I have the tag. A COA does nothing and means nothing if the COA isnt required to run/play the media. It might as well be a Proof of Purchase bar code. Does anyone check for POP before you play a movie?
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|"I know you are referring to "media" but what you are effectifly saying is that if I take the VIN tag from your car I would then own your car."
More or less. No, in that case the car would not be yours, but without the VIN tag it wouldn't be mine either.
If the VIN code were "pirated" or "copied", that would be just as illegal, no? Why not change the vin on your car with mine of the same year and make? Then the one I trashed the other day and ditched will still exist, I will steal your car but the records will show that it is actually "my" car.
It IS the same thing dude, in fact I am glad you made this analogy. The COA is the license and if FBI saw a business that ran OEM licensed Windows versions without COAs on them, they could arrest the owners. This is something I have witnessed personally, and definately an experience I will never forget. Of course, it was some tech company that had been investigated for quite some time for selling their old PCs with invalid windows versions, but the point is that the COA is the legal POP. Lose it and it *could* wind you up in legal trouble.
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|Legend. :D
This guy got PayPal? I'd like to make a donation for his troubles, if it's all it's 'cracked' up to be. ;)
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|Not like this wasnt inevitable, really shocking news.
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|In all of this, they'd make a great case for themselves in putting all these protections in their media if they allowed the discs to be exchanged if damaged.
Allow consumers to replace the disc if it is damaged/broken for a very reasonable fee. The price of the media ($1-3 + say, shipping $4)...or, allow stores to enchange it for a store fee, or even allow stores to offer disc insurance, pay $3 when you buy it, get a special digital or otherwise tranferable tag which moves with the disc (like a title for a car, sorry, can't think of anything else) and be able to enchange it if something ever goes wrong with it?
I don't know, but there are tons of methods which could be employed. Then noone would fear a damaged dvd, and therefore no reason for the everyday honest person to backup a dvd. Only people who'd want to cry about backing up are the real pirates who obviously have no conscience and see fit to 'back up' blockbuster dvds so they have it in their own collection. Problem solved. Ofcourse, the movie studios are pirates themselves, so this will never happen. They want everyone who damages a dvd to buy it back at full price, so they can kiss a$$. I hope it's cracked and not self-healable and boils down to a dvd with more space.
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|What about getting a replacement of 'limited edition' HD-DVDs, which may not be available even a few weeks after initial purchase? For this to work, stock availability would have to be guaranteed. You may end up with a different version of the film than the one that attracted you to buy it, or you may just get a voucher for equivalent purchase value. I don't think the idea is practical, given the endless coaxing and shenanigans the studios go through to make us buy the same movie over and over again.
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|I'd imagine that the studios have those "limited editions" archived away, like Disney does so they can "let movies 'out of the vault'" every so many years to keep their value inflated.
Don't get me wrong, I hate DRM, it's a complete pain, but if they ever do get it locked up, they shouldn't do like they do & use it to wring every red cent out of the consumer.
I think free/low cost replacements would be the right thing for them to do, but when have they ever done the "right thing"? I can just see them offering them at a fairly reasonable cost, but gouging S&H to the point where it's not much different than rebuying the disc.
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|Imagine if the same tack was employed when "buying" a car. You wouldn't actually buy it, but you'd purchase a license to use it. The auto makers would have the power to dictate how you could use your car. No loaning it. No reselling it. No opening the hood to modify anything. No forced recall whatsoever. Amazing that the software industry can get away with such a rip-off deal in this day and age.
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|right on!
a car analogy.
:-)
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|No.
It's called a lease.
Where've ya'll been the last 20 years?
...and when will ya'll realize car analogies *never* work. (kinda like my Powermac)
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|LOL@computer tard!
First, we are not leasing our DVDs, duh...
Second, if you cant even work a PowerMac than you are a complete idiot and nobody should even listen to your nonsense... LOL
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|as far as i know, it's not the car manufacturers themselves that lease, but third party distributors.
the car manufacturers still SELL the cars.
:-p
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|Still holds the same general indemnification exclusions. Software vendors can still dictate far more boundaries over the use of their products than automobile dealers can with leases.
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|lmao...
Typical response from you.
2 things:
1.) DVD's are licensed. You're not paying a monthly fee, but you're still bound by terms dictated therein.
2.) The Powermac works just fine...it was a troll for "mac tards" like you. :) Looks like I caught one. At least you're consistent.
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|Still fails the analogy test since you are still not the owner of said car and are bound by the terms of the lease.
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|How's that? They can dictate what gas you use, how far you can drive it, and what, if anything, you can do to it as far as modification.
Of course, some things are easier to get around than others... what they don't know can't hurt them, eh?
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|but i can still BUY the same car i can lease.
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|"1.) DVD's are licensed. You're not paying a monthly fee, but you're still bound by terms dictated therein."
you're bound by terms using any product under copyright/patent. from tv's to toothbrushes. that doesn't prevent me from owning it.
we could go back to my kitchen knife analogy, if i commit a crime with it, it's none of the manufacturers business.
these large companies need to keep their noses out of law enforcement. it's making them look bad. let the public decide what's right and wrong. the only thing they prove with copy protection schemes and monitoring software, is that they don't trust their consumers. and because of that, the consumer doesn't trust them. -edit-
by the way, you only need a license to manufacture dvd's, not to watch them.
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|Duh?
Do you see why I hate car analogies?
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|by the way, you only need a license to manufacture dvd's, not to watch them.
I know we're rehashing the same topic that constantly seems to confound you, but you agree to the terms of a license when you buy the Media.
Yeah, I know....you don't agree, but watch it anyway. This in itself, amazingly, does not invalidate the license, it just proves you think you're above contract law.
*shrug*
But then, if everyone agreed, it'd be a pretty boring forum....
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|ummmm...
on grounds that it might incriminate you, i won't answer that one.
;-)
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|"But then, if everyone agreed, it'd be a pretty boring forum..."
agreed!
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|"you agree to the terms of a license when you buy the Media"
where have you seen this?
or are you confusing it with copyright law?
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|...
Yeah. Copyright/DMCA.
*shakes head* I really need to stop posting before I finish my morning coffee...multiple threads (hell, forums, FTM) becoming one and all that.
While copyright law and DMCA both violate the terms of my freedom, I remain bound by my respect for my country and it's laws to respect them until they can be changed (or with the DMCA, removed, burned, and never spoken of again).
Part of believing in the system sort of implies working with that system when some idiot lawmaker / trade organization decides they can bend it.
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|No problem.
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|agreed,
but, i'll still fight back when i feel pushed. hypothetically, i could start a rally against the DMCA, and maybe have it revoked.
for now...i'll just bitøh.
;-)
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|You lose at logic.
You can't make a digital copy of a car.
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|I edited my response to reduce my overly-harsh tone. I suppose I'm focusing on the "usage" aspects as opposed to the modification aspects. Granted "car" analogies are a bit simplistic. Maybe "material product" analogy would work better? :)
If a reproducible defect is discovered in Windows or Office, which can be shown to cause a systemic failure that results in physical (human or material) damage, Microsoft is still not liable or required to "recall" the product at anytime. The EULA and UCITA pretty much spell that out.
If a reproducible defect is found in a material product (car, truck, aircraft, kids toy, etc.) which is reported to result in physical damage, it often results in forced recall and/or legal damages (suits, fines).
That's the difference that amazes me in 2007. That such double-standards are ignored and allowed to continue. Imagine the pressure on companies like Microsoft, Apple, Novell, etc. if they had to succumb to the same legal pressures.
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|WEll, ya know what they say..."stick to what yer good at". :p
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|I have a *ton* of pictures on my computer of my Bonneville. :p
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|...yeah, yeah... but it would be pretty hard to drive those pictures to work. :p
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|Cake.
Throw 'em on a USB drive and hop in the car. :p
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|That car was so successful, Pontiac decided to stop building it.
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|Bonneville is a sweet car.
Pontaic made the mistake with bad marketing and had to drop it. wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer screwed up a good car.
...if only PC_Tool could make a couple copies...
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|Darn you...
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|I'm not allowing one bit of DRM to enter my digital world. If DRM is going to be shoved down my throat, I'll stay away from all new media rather than give up my rights to any fing studio.
We need freedom, not DRM. That said I'm glad he cracked it and all money invested in AACS is going to waste now or shortly.
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|I don't know about who actually owns the contents of a disc once it is bought. But when a disc is damaged, the only person who loses money is the consumer under the present laws. So, if the companies are willing to replace genuine discs that have been damaged, for a price that covers production and shipping, then they can fairly 'ask' people not to backup copyrighted material.
Otherwise, everyone has the right to protect their property bought with hard earned money.
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|Ah the voice of reason. A voice never heard in the world of business.
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|Both HD formats failed Christmas. That's a gift.
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|As far as I'm concerned, they can stick their HD & Blu-Ray DVDs where the sun don't shine. Too little to late. As pointed out, DVD is good enough for watching a movie - even XviD is fine. Personally I don't need or want an airport hanger to view media; a simple TV will do. In addition, there's absolutely no return on investment for the consumer; poor portability or interoperability with these kinds of schemes.
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|This treacherous system must fail. Instead of being directed at DVD piracy, it is aimed at the average PC user, who will not stand for it. We are not promoting piracy in any form, we only wish to play digital content on our own PC and perhaps make a backup, which doesn't hurt anyone.
Until we can do that, nobody will embrace that technology, with its oppressive schemes. If copyright laws become so restrictively stupid, people will take matters into their own hands, legally or not.
These harmful schemes only hurt innocent people. The movie pirates will just continue to duplicate. The movie industry won't even realize what is happening until after they've saturated the market, and this ability to update encryption won't make any difference.
As simple as decrypting keys, but even easier for professionals with extended resources. Nobody will feel sorry for them either. They've directed their unscrupulous contempt toward consumers, since they are powerless to defeat piracy, and instead wave their sabres over the large easy target of their loyal honest customers, labelling them thieves and pirates.
This is their war now, they claim. They make me almost as sick as their product with its over-inflated prices. Their solution it seems is not to accrue more sales of new movies, but to maintain higher prices (while reducing the price of old stock and B movies for the gullible)
It is poor business practice to overcharge. The low income people are the ones who may have the time and desire to view or buy movies if they could ever afford them, but since they can't, unless they're pirated, they may seek an alternative solution.
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|Despite what they say, their only targets arent genuine 'evil' movie pirates. It's mom, dad and the kids as well. Sure they lose money from commercial piraters, but they lose alot more when households crack/scratch a cd (which does happen, alot) and are able to simply back them up. A family that knows how, and does back up a DVD means a loss of revenue because that family will never have to re-buy a DVD that has been damaged, and this hurts the movie companies alot more. So they know exactly what they're doing. I'm borderline on both fair-use and anti-piracy because they both boil down to trust - you just can't trust that everyone who's backing up a DVD is doing so for themselves, they could very easily give it away to friends/family which is wrong. As for anti-piracy, well obviously, you can't trust these companies either because at the end of it all, they really just see money. They don't see the fairness in allowing people to get back their broken/damaged DVDs by any reasonable means.
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|Well a stand-alone dvd duplicator will take care of that. you can get a 1-1 duplicator for $100.
I'm sure bluray/hd-dvd stand alone copiers are right around the corner, and wont end up costing too much when prices get reasonable.
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|I hate DRM. I am pro Fair-Use, but anti-piracy.
But I am glad they broke this. The industry needs to learn that forcing this stuff down our throats is not what we want.
Stupid DMCA. One of the worst things Clinton ever signed. :(
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|The real solution to the problem (which is the same solution as the music industry) is to give the consumer adequate value with a price that makes it more inconvenient to pirate the movie or music. There will always be that young cracker with plenty of time on his hands seeking fame that will crack whatever protection is put to use. The studios are only buying a little time and they could put the money to use making better products instead.
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|I think that HD-DVD and Blu_Ray will both eventually fail. The whole concept is not to deliver better sound and picture to the end user.
It was designed to be completely controlled by the studios, the only way they can make it work is by offering movies in "true HD", the only thing standard DVD players can't do. People for the most part don't get more enjoyment out a movie just because it in HD, most people could care less about movies in 1080i/p.
Only the die hard videophiles really appreciate the difference. You have to consider the most popular sound format (MP3) in the world is also one of the worst sounding. Obviously, sound quality is not that important to people either.
My standard Samsung DVD upscales 480p movies to 720p via the dreaded HDMI connection, and it's not that far from HD-DVD or Blu_ray, both of which I own.
People will eventually get sick of this silly war and it's DRM infestation and it will eventually go away due to lack of interest.
I've been a Blu-Ray hater from day one, and HD-DVD is no better when it comes to studio control. At least I did the smart thing and bough a gaming system that can play Blu-Ray and the add-on for my 360 so my total investment in the HD movie format is 200 bucks.
If you look at the numbers at www.thedvdwars.com , HD-DVD was kicking a** for a while, now both formats are taking a nose dive.
I seriously hope this turns out to be true.
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|"My standard Samsung DVD upscales 480p movies to 720p via the dreaded HDMI connection, and it's not that far from HD-DVD or Blu_ray, both of which I own."
I have never heard such a silly statement, how does it add the missing information, it guesses it.. Upscaling is snake oil, and anyone that claims they can see a difference of the standard picture is simply justifiying themselves spending money on a upscaling DVD player.
I originally assumed this was a fake hollywood_ making him look silly, but it looks like this is the real hollywood_ making himself look silly..
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|Even the fake Hollywood_ doesnot make stupid claims that upscaling standard def DVD players look close to HD.
It make you also wonder about Hollywood_'s other quality observations and general allround technical knowledge...
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|Steve,
I would love to see your system. Any chance you could post some pics of your fabulous equipment? I'd bet you have a 40 inch LCD in your living room with the BOSE 123 and a $29.00 DVD player from Value City.
Just because your eyes are always glazed from malt hops and bong resin doesn't mean some people actually notice a difference. Are you telling me you have seen every upscaling DVD on every TV made?
You've probably seen a improperly hooked up display at Best Buy.
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|Easy Dave,
Did you get enough Best Buy gift cards to finally afford that BD player?
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|lol
:-D
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|OK, On 3 or so systems I have seen, one of them my own, none of the upscaled pictured looked any real difference from the standard def, and they all looked MUCH better when playing proper HD content (1xHD-DVD, 2xBlu-Ray).
My system, Panasonic TH-42PX60 (720p/1080i), a Panasonic DMR-EX75 DVD Recorder that upscales to 1080i/720p, and I have tried a PS3 (on loan) playing a 50GB Blu-Ray title, that looked simply outstanding.
There really is no comparison between upscaled and true HD content...
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|My upscaling Sony DVD player does look close to HD, to me atleast. Unfortunately it broke after 8 months, so now I'm using a $40 divx DVD player :'(
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|Then I can only assume your TV is not showing the true capability of HD content.
With a good display, there are worlds of difference between upscaled SD and true HD.
The problem is, many people have been missold HD tv's that are not HD, particularly in North America, 1080i CRT's for example...
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|plague,
Finally a voice of reason. Last night, we watched Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets on the movie screen with the Samsung via HDMI and upscaled to 720p.
I'll be damned if it didn't look as good as some "HD" movies. It's a great transfer to begin with, but I was astounded at the picture quality. Pixar's Cars is also amazing when upscaled. There is a difference, it's sharper and more film like. I was running the component out at 480p into the projector as well and all I had to do switch inputs to see the difference.
If people would just learn a little bit about video and utilize their sets and players to their best abilities, they would see that HD-DVD and Blu_Ray actually aren't that big of a difference from a properly hooked up, good quality DVD player on an HD set.
The problem is most people buy s***ty DVD players and hook them up to decent HD sets. The other problem is lazy Americans don't go into the setup menu on their DVD and select 720p output even when the player is capable of upscaling. We all know their hooked up HDMI because the stupid Best Buy and CC salesman always talk them into buying a "high end" HDMI from Monster, the McDonalds of cables.
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|Are you telling me a 1080i CRT rear projection is not HD?
I would love to hear this explanation.
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|http://www.eicta.org/fil.../document1160753216.pdf
Requirements for the label “HD ready”
A display device has to cover the following requirements to be awarded the label “HD ready”:
1. Display, display engine
· The minimum native resolution of the display (e.g. LCD, PDP) or display
engine (e.g. DLP) is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio.
2. Video Interfaces
· The display device accepts HD input via:
o Analogue YPbPr1, and
o DVI or HDMI
· HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats:
o 1280x720 @ 50 and 60Hz progressive (“720p”), and
o 1920x1080 @ 50 and 60Hz interlaced (“1080i”)
· The DVI or HDMI input supports content protection (HDCP)
So unless there is a HDMI port that supports HDCP, and the set does 720P AND 1080i, then it's not HD...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_ready
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|Thats funny. No, my TV is a 50" Sony. I think I'd know the difference between a CRT and an HDTV. And I still say theres not much of a difference between SD and HD movies.
In your defense though, it is a lot more noticible with sci fi movies where there is a lot of digital images than with chick flicks. Those movies for me are worth it, but I still cant say that the average consumer will care to pay more money for for something that just looks slightly better. I only payed it because it was $200 for me (xbox360 HD-DVD drive) and I have some interest in it.
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|The best results I achieved with upscaling was with Sin City. Looked close to HD to me.
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|"So unless there is a HDMI port that supports HDCP"
Thats a load of crap, LOL
Not to mention thats in Europe.
And if thats so then Sony is really screwed, most people dont have HDMI (in the US), so no need for a PS3...
EDIT: OH and it still doesnt mean that a 1080i CRT rear projection cant have an HDMI output.
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|I was going to mention Sin City, that looks incredible too.
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|I have a 65 inch Samsung CRT in our bedroom, even though it doesn't have the "True HD" label on it, it looks better than most comparable DLP's and I'll tell you why.
At 1080i, which is pretty much all I watch off the Comcast box, the picture looks smoother and has that 3D depth you don't get with a lot of DLP and plasma TV's. This is due to the black level capability of the set, most DLP rear projection and front projectors have "grey levels" as opposed to true black. CRT is still the king of deep black levels.
It makes all the difference in the world. Plasma and it's exaggerated, untrue colors and terrible black levels really looks bad, unless you are watching a Disney animated film, which is why that it all they demo in those. You have no idea what the real colors are supposed to look like.
I used to work at a retailer and we used every trick in the book to push those awful plasmas.
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|I would tend to agree here, any analog display, and certainly sets that don't support 720p are not really HD.
How many analog displays have you seen with digitial HDMI ports?
What would be the point? There is no way to do HDCP, so would be subject to ICT, and the conversion back from analog to digital would be lossy..
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|Wow sounds like the old Betamax VHS arguments in the 80s. Trust me.. people will be using HDDVD and Bluray a LONG time.. When those burners get down to $150.00 each - and you can burn 50 GB of data on one disc for a few bucks? Forget it - it will explode and everyone will own one. DVD's will be useless. Burning 10 DVD movies on 1 Disc.. etc etc etc.. its endless what you can do.
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|Opps double post sorry:
PS and yes they call me a pirate. Why? because I record my (Cable obtained and paid for through subscription) TV shows to VHS tape and to HDD Via my DVR for use in my personal VCR and Computer until the DVD is released. Which I also end up purchasing, If it ever is released that is. I now have easily in the $1,000's worth of them in fact. I can't count the box set I own offhand, or the number of cases Full of purchased movie DVDs I own in the house. But yet my entire collection can go with me on trips if I so choose via laptop. That's not Piracy, that's Efficiency in Time s***ing.
Yea I'm a pirate, Right... Well if that is piracy, well they can just shiver me timbers YARG!!! The law says under betamax ruling that is fair use; and I will stick to that till the day they hang me by the neck until dead for their so called piracy.
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|The problem is even if you own the DVD in the industries view they WANT to be able to charge you per viewing of your high quality show. Just wait till people discover that vista destroys itself if you even try this on it. As per an agreement between the MPAA and MS Windows Vista has triggers built into the OSes DRM system is compromised in any way, it will cripple the machine and force a reinstall of the operating system.
Just like the old beta max days this makes me sick. I pay a heck of a lot of money on DVDs but I will never touch Blu ray or HD DVDs because there is no end user rights what so ever. If I want to move my DVD to a hand held unit to watch on a trip or whatever I am dam well going to do so. I purchased the disc and I will use it. If they turn it off it will be the last disc I ever buy from the company. Take Sony for example, after that whole Rootkit garbage. I have not purchased one Sony CD and never will again. I was burnt once, but not anymore.
The day it happens like that on DVDs I will do the same thing... as should EVERYONE else. That is the only language these people understand. DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCTS UNTIL THEY LISTEN TO THE BUYERS DEMANDS! Fair use rights MUST be restored to the consumers of this media. Without it this will Never be solved. Indeed we are paying for them losing the betamax case now in many ways. Imagine what would happen if the economy takes a dive, which it will very likely will in the coming years.
I consider anything that happens with HD DVD or Blu-ray discs to be moot anyway as they have no standardization protocols or End user rights. Its no more valid a choice then the Failed Pay to Play DIVX media or the Play Once Disney DVDs were. There was and still is nothing wrong with DVD media, as long as it exists I will continue to purchase them in that format. So called High Definition be dammed.
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|Well said.
My computers will never see Vista either. If I am forced to buy one with Visa on it, it will be changed to XP.
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|Have we not already shown a balance has been made? People who pirate, always will. People who will buy, have.
We have been running this way for quite some time now and the studios are still making money, the record companies are still making money. Why do they even bother with protections anymore?
Are you telling me 100s of 1000s of unknowing or uncaring legitimate users would start making copies? That without these headaches the balance is lost and enough people stop buying that it truly does make a difference?
Show me the history where that has been the case, ever.
All of this screams lobby groups and special interests wanting to continue driving their Ferarri's and taking trips to Gstad.
Not worth any of our time.
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|I agree. I also think there is a point in between that has no affect as well.
Those that rent and make copies of their rentals. While they may watch the movies a second time, in the vast majority of these cases, I think its highly unlikely they would turn to buying instead of renting if copying wasn't an option. I think it comes down to them copying because they can. If they couldn't, they'd still rent and if they wanted to watch again, rent it again.
I always laugh at any figures when they are in regards to pirating and how much money is lost. Whether its movies, software or anything else, the simple fact is that many of the pirates just wouldn't have it or would use something else in place of pirating. So in essence, there is no lost revenue.
I think in reality, there ends up being SOME lost revenues, but its far from what they report. Probably, in fact a very small percentage.
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|I think that every work made by man could be reverse engineering by another man, we actually live in an ENTERPRISES DITATORSHIP WHERE THE PUBLIC IS THE LESS CARED FOR BY THE RESPECTIVE GOVERMENTS; WE IN MEXICO IN ABOUT 2 AND A HALF YEARS WILL BE IN A CIVIL WAR, ACTUALLY WE ARE IN A LOW INTENSITY WAR, ESPECIALLY IN THE BORDER AREA, AND VERY SHORTLY IN A CIVIL UNREST AGAINST THE ENTERPRICES DICTATORSHIP.
MYSELF NOW USE OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE AND AS A TEACHER I TRAIN MY STUDENTS TO BEWARE OF POLITICS, AND THE CAREFULLY ANALISYS OF THE LANGUAGE OF THE PRESS, THE MEDIA AND THE WAYS THE IMPERIUM USES TO CONTYROL PEOPLE MINDS, HISTORY, MONEY AND THE PRIVATIZATION OF NATURE
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|Joe,
You sound angry.
I agree all copy protection sucks, the best part is there are whole groups of people dedicated to breaking it.
I love watching big companies scramble to fix the problems.
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|Check your keyboard. The caps lock seems to be stuck. I have no comment on what you said because I didn't bother to read it.
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|investigating legitimacy? the dude posted the source and executable for download! http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=119871
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|there's a youtube link and a rapidshare link in the youtube description... why read what others have to see when you can see and play with the code yourself.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_oZGYb92isE
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|AACS uses the internet connection to monitor people? Sounds familiar? Root kit, Sony... didn't we go through this already?
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|Sony BD+
Eitherway, stay offline and your fine.
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|You don't think that updates won't be delivered by BD discs?
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|Theres always an update for Windows XP, has that ever stoped me?
Also, you dont think that a custom mod for the players themselves wont be released?
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|"Studios Take Claims of AACS Crack Seriously"
LMAO, they had better take it seriously. If it had read "Studios could give a rats A$$ about AACS being cracked" --I mean, would any moron NOT take threats against the security of their products seriously?? :D
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|This guy should have kept his mouth shut and researched it more. In the interim more people will have purchased a HD-DVD system. Then he could have marketed a copy program and made a good profit. I would not cry over the loss of the reording industries profit.
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|He could have also even caused a very slow death for HD-DVD MOVIES, because the movie companies will not want to release their movies on a format known for its easy 'crackability' (if that's even a word) when Blu-Ray, while they may have their reasons not to like it (sony boycott or whatever), at least has a ways to go before being cracked, and the firmware is supposedly easy to update to fix glitches in the copy protection. So--if Universal Studios decides that they would rather Blu-Ray than have HD-DVD due to piracy--they could choose what they might call the lesser of two evils.
This could be a bad thing. I'm sure Mark Gillespie is singing praises at this very moment :-|
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|question ...
If you create a disk with digital rights management - then sell it to 100 people
what % will copy it
- 0% (?)
- any protection will be cracked eventually, what stops someone pointing a camera at a TV screen
what % will be annoyed by the DRM
- and maybe never buy another disk
- or maybe never buy the disk or the player in the first place
what % will never be affected negatively by the DRM
- remember the Sony fiasco !!!
If you create a disk with NO digital rights management = then sell it to 100 people
what % will copy it
- even in the days of vhs videos, just how many people had two recorders and made copys, I could have but didnt
what % will be annoyed by the DRM
- zero since there is no DRM
what % will never be affected negatively by the DRM
- 100% since there is no DRM
so is DRM consumer friendly
IMHO NO ITS NOT
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|I'm not sure I see the point to your post. Is there actually someone that thinks DRM IS consumer friendly?
All you prove in your post is that DRM DOES in fact prevent people from copying.
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|Actually, it would have been illegal for him to market a product that circumvents copy protection and he would have found himself in a world of hurt, if he hasn't already (since cracking copy protection is pretty much illegal these days, profit or not).
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|"All you prove in your post is that DRM DOES in fact prevent people from copying."
it does?
what can't be copied because of DRM?
(maybe you mean inhibit not prevent)
i thought it was just there to make recording studios look like control freaks.
:-p
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|maybe you mean inhibit not prevent
Oh, god...
Look, if it stops them from even attempting it, it's prevention. Are you seriously going to
start arguing semantics again?
The point stands. Inhibit vs. prevent is irrelevant.
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|anyone who can transfer cd's to mp3's to a music device will be able, and will most likely use some sort of conversion program that will circumvent the DRM anyway.
like i said,
inhibit, not prevent.
all the DRM does is make it inconvenient to use the music we purchase.
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|Most folks who transfer music do so legally...despite the claims from the RIAA. I see no reason whatsoever why this would change drastically with the availability of HD DVD or Blu Ray circumvention.
You're not falling for the RIAA's propaganda, are you? Folks who circumvent DRM are few and far between, you just don't see a lot of them here... not that this forum is *any* indication whatsoever of social norms.
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|"Most folks who transfer music do so legally"
well, i guess if you say so, then it must be true eh?
:-p
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|Consider:
Most of the labels posted record earnings last year.
Piracy, even by RIAA's standards, has dropped considerably.
Do we hear about the folks who *don't* pirate in news every day? No. It's one of the perks of *not* being a peg-legged, one-eye'd, parrot perch. :p
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|ROFL
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|We now have HD DVD and Blue-ray. The 3rd intro is EVD, and even if it's made in China (what isn't), we are going to have more headaches in the next few years.
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|hold on a second ...
The result is supposed to be that the once-cracked media becomes unreadable by AACS-endowed players connected to the Internet.
so ... you connect your player to the internet
good point it downloads updates
bad point it downloads updates ...
that could mean your perfectly legit disks will no longer play
I dont like to use strong language in forums but **** THAT
Why the hell would anyone buy a player, buy disks, hook up their player to the internet (as the manual no doubt tells you) only to find that some (or ALL) of your disks suddenly become un-playable
And what are the manufacturers going to do when millions of consumers say "hey my player wont play ### film" (and they have the receipt to prove its legit (both player and disk))
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|Funny how times have changed, only last week, was Hollywood_ ranting about how Blu-Ray players needed to be connected to the internet to work, and that HD-DVD did not...
Of course, anyone with any sense would see that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD use the same encryption scheme, and thus both have the same requiurements and limitations. Internet connections for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray are not mandatory, As I understand it, I may be wrong on this, new keys and blacklisted keys can be distributed with newer movies, so when you play Casino Royale in Blu-Ray it contains a list of blacklisted keys that get downloaded to your player...
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|Blu-Ray does have some different protections I hear, like 'watermarked' signatures to prevent one from emulating a "pressed" disc even when it is a burned one, and it will supposedly have stricter requirements for playing back any copyrighted material. I heard this from a forum a few months ago (before either format was released) so I could be wrong--anyone got a link or know what I'm talking about?
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|whatever method is used to update the 'blacklist'
as far as I can tell this list is a list of disks that have been cracked?!
what exactly happens when a disk is cracked ???
its ID is put on the blacklist ???
and then that ID is sent to all the players who then refuse to play that disk ???
sooner or later - the customer will vote with their money
there comes a time when the 'copy protection' 'digital rights management' is anti-consumer
what of the rights of the consumer ??????
I for one will NEVER buy into such a system
Imagine your entire (legit) disk collection not playing - #100s or #1000s (#money)
And will these non-playable disks be replaced or refunded - you bet they wont
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|"I for one will NEVER buy into such a system"
That's fine, but you have to realise ALL HD systems implement the same protections. My issue, is that fanboys here pretend Sony and Blu-Ray are the bad guys, and HD-DVD does not do the exact same thing..
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|Steve,
I have been turned off by both formats lately, I don't think the slightly better picture is worth all the extra investment. Anyone with the means should spend as little as possible on a player, like the add-on for the 360 or a PS3 which can both be used as cutting edge gaming systems.
I for one have been using NetFlix to rent both formats, I won't be buying very many movies on either HD-DVD or BD.
If you go to www.thedvdwars.com you will see HD-DVD's once commanding lead is now almost even with BD. Which I figured would happen but neither format had the Christmas they hoped for.
I would never hook up an internet connection to either player for any reason, just like the old days when DirecTV wanted you to hook up the phone line.
This whole next gen DVD war is stupid and if one side doesn't take off and leave the other in the dust, they will both fail.
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|This has been proven to be fake.
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|Do you have a link to a story proving it a fake?
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|Your comment has been proven to be moronic.
See, it's ironic because I haven't cited any sources either. Oh what jolly good fun. Lets do this again sometime, shall we?
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|It will be only a matter of time before it is cracked. They know and we know it. Investigations and threats will not stop it.
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|i 2nd that.
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|If only it were a static scheme!
Oops...
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|