This really isn't a win for Sony, like the fanboys would have you believe. Sony is taking a double-digit loss in market share with their new fancy system. The Blue-ray drive will help bring in new customers or customers who would otherwise opt for just a 360 or Revolution. Frankly, I think they'd lose another 10+% with the omission of the Blue-ray drive.

Of course, with the total lack of announced affordable Blue-ray drives.. the format could crash and burn, and then the obsolete format wouldn't be much of an appeal anymore.

So much anger, so much hate, so much hostility... WHEN WILL THE MADNESS STOP?!?!?!?!

I think we all know by now that all these "studies" never indicate reality. The decision to buy a console is based on the following conditions:

1) A given console has the games I want to play. If multiple consoles have the same games, then which one looks "Best" according to my tastes? If a console doesn't have the games I want, then why buy it (except for Condition 2)?

2) I have too much money and too much time, so I'm going to buy them all and entertain myself from now until Hell freezes over.

Better hardware doesn't mean better games-- it means better potential for games.

ding ding ding we have a winner

The point of all the procs is to have smarter ai. Think of a football game where all the computer players have individual ai's controlling them. That would take like, 8 procs :)

Ok i guess you have never programmed, and have no clue how exactly this works.

Lets take the example you gave, the football game. Right now every single non player controlled entity has its own AI.(If it doesnt its either a compromise for gameplay sakes, or completely stupid)

AI is generally compromised of a state engine which determines given a number of factors what the entity will do.

The most processor intensive part of AI is pathfinding.

1 extra processor to deal with the AI is really overkill right now.

Can we quote you on this, 1 year from now?

Erm, i don't think so, PS3 is a joke now, all them processors, wtf is the point? I'll be buying an Xbox 360 when it goes down in price, not a PS3.

yes i agree even tho the specs might be better i think ps3 is going to be too expensive for the the lower class gamers and also the xbox is going to be ahead of ps3 by 2 holiday seasons

Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya

lmao..

Let's all hold hands and....sing!

I've bought 2 ps2's and 3 gamecube's (2 were gifts) I found no good reason to buy an xbox other than to own one. In fact i had a friend buy an xbox just to try the games on it rather than his ps2....it (the xbox) sits in the closet now. I think i'll forgo the xbox360 and wait for the ps3 (i'm patient, and my ps2's work just fine).sony just does it better. they have more games too (plus full backwards compatibility). i'm expecting it to be released at the end of this year for about $500. (i just hope they don't change the controller setup!!!)

I Hope they change the controller back to something more like the PS2 controller, not that horrible thing they showed at E3 last year.

I'm pretty sure they will. The PS2 controller, I think is the best console controller there is, with very little room for improvement.

I have a 360. It's excellent. I have it on the home net, and it's music and pic features are very nice. I played some demos, and didn't pay for a thing. Lots of fun. I played some GRAW this weekend. Awesome game. I got my money's worth, for sure.

I'm not a fanboy for MS. However, I think that if you are saying that Microsoft sucks, you couldn't give me one, etc. etc... you aren't giving it a fair shot. Maybe PS3 will (eventually) be better. Technically, the Xbox was better than the PS2, but that didn't mean that PS2 wasn't "better" to a lot of people.

I see what you say.

I am not a fanboy, and yet I have spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours researching the PS3 and Xbox 360, I have only spent a couple on the Revolution, because they don't have any info on it, and have come to the conclusion the PS3 will dominate the industry.

The specs of the PS3 are better than the Xbox 360, and what made the PS2, good games on a large scale, which isn't present on the Xbox 360, or in the near future, are already on the PS3.

Sony made the PS2 dominate the market by having games only for it's system. Sony is trying it's hardest to do the same with the PS3, and are making it possible.

PNP (PlayStation Network Platform) does a lot more than Xbox Live for the 360, and will be completely FREEEEEEE!!!!!!!

Sony is going to win this round on that fact alone.

I have done a lot of research, and have concluded that the demand for the Xbox 360 is a lot smaller compared to the PS3, and the specs and quality games on the Xbox 360 are small compared to the PS3.

"I am not a fanboy, and yet I have spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours researching the PS3 and Xbox 360"

LMAO, good grief. You're like Lord of the Fanboys.

"PNP (PlayStation Network Platform) does a lot more than Xbox Live for the 360, and will be completely FREEEEEEE!!!!!!!"

They announced plans for a free BASIC service like Microsoft currently has. No one knows yet what features the basic service will offer. It's very unlikely though the good stuff will be free. They will already be taking heavy losses on the consoles, they can't afford giving away free bandwidth too.

"The specs of the PS3 are better than the Xbox 360, and what made the PS2, good games on a large scale, which isn't present on the Xbox 360, or in the near future, are already on the PS3."

This really comes down to opinion. I've got 15 games for my 360 and I think they are all (except 1) great. Some I like more than others, but the only one I don't like is Perfect Dark Zero.

And as I've already stated - specs are a good reference, nothing more. Developer's need to be able to use those specs.

What it really comes down to are titles. I happen to like more of the exclusive xbox titles than PS titles, so choice is easy. Both consoles are next gen and have next gen gameplay and graphics.

dude if you are not a Sony fanboy then George Bush won the noble peace prize. Oh and Osama is the lost beetle.

It's been stated by Sony, that the PSN basic version, which is free, WILL include online gaming, and gaming room access, gamer tags, chat and game online stores (to buy and download titles).

There is a enhanced service coming later, that will expand on this, and cost a monthly subscription.

I like to see the XBox fanboy faces, when their $8 keeps coming out of the bank each month, when PS3 owners get most of the same stuff for free.

Your ranting aside, you do have a point. The biggest win Sony could potentially get is that "killer game" that's PS3 only. For a while, GTASA was that game.

Hopefully when the PS3 comes out, MS will give away even more demos and such. =)

Obviously there will be something missing from the free version - otherwise, why would anyone buy the service?

Until final details are released, all bets are off.

And really, is the cost of 1 game a year that steep a price for Xbox Live? Live is awesome. I'm glad Sony is doing something, but we'll have to wait and see just how good it is.

EDIT - Mark - Check this press release out: http://www.us.playstatio...ewsStories.aspx?id=3906

Notice it says "basic service will be free of charge initially"

Sounds to me like they want to suck people in and then charge them once they are hooked.

Xbox 360 already has THE console must have title in production.

HALO 3... oh and its gona be released the same day that the ps3

Also in production is Fable2 which will be a great seller.

Finally Gears of War, a very good looking game thats comming out in a few months.

Not to mention, Oblivion which was released today.

Post a link fanboy, put up or shut up. The president of Sony HIMSELF has not announced what will be included in the service yet.

"I like to see the XBox fanboy faces, when their $8 keeps coming out of the bank each month, when PS3 owners get most of the same stuff for free."

You're full of crap.

That's the biggest load of BS I've ever read. They somehow know what the exact market share for all three consoles will be down to the tenth of a percent in 2010. Are people stupid enough to believe garbage like this?

Microsoft said they would have 2 Million Xbox 360's out at launch, and someone called bulls*** and said it would be 1.7 Million.

We later found out it was only 363,000, with about 250,000 in December, 250,000 in January, and 161,000 in February.

A head of Microsoft said there will be full shipments of the Xbox 360 in "four to six weeks" It has been six weeks already.

Someone else in Microsoft said in early March that they should be full force in 90 days. Which would be early June.

What is your point?

yes, they are.

Finally someone that agrees with me.

But I think Sony will win by even more, and Nintendo will outship Microsoft.

they will buy a revolution b/.c its cheap and has all old games playable.. and downloadable

That's why I think the PS3 and Revolution are going to dominate the market.

The will buy a Revolution for the good old games, and buy a PS3 for all the good new games.

No one smart person would buy an Xbox 360 to play some crappy game that is just a souped up a port of an original Xbox/PS2 game.

They want originality and actually good graphics, which most games for the Xbox 360 lack.

Yeah, all those great PS3 games are AMAZING! They are way better than the 360 games and oh so original. The graphics are just...hey wait a minute! What PS3 games, we haven't seen any yet. Oh wait, you're a Sony fanboy. Nevermind.

Look at this history of Sony consoles. The majority of PS2 launch games are nothing more "souped up port of an original", and looking at launch titles of the PS3 it's the same.

Additionally, this concept of originality is really hard to justify. Barely anything in video gaming is original anymore.

I know for a fact that all the games on the PS2 vs xbox are better on xbox, jsut compare San Andreas on both consoles. Either way, this news is expected. $ony definitely has plenty of fanboys lurking around. Although it is all still projected, I mean, they don't even know what Revolution is going to be yet. They still ahven't accounted for posible $ony delays.

Wow! They can predict that far ahead? Amazing. And ANYONE listens? That's even more amazing. Maybe they can predict the next tsunami or hurricane landfall?

it's not only they can predict. They gave you the EXACT market percentage of each console too. Freaking amazing.

You cannot even predict the market share shifts on a weekly or monthly basis. The same applies for weather even on a daily or hourly basis.

These so-called predictions have an exceptional amount of crystal balling, except it's actually one of those show shakey things.

If you know anything about statictics, you'll know that most stats come with a +/- 5% margin of error.

Stats were my forte in college. Stats are smoke and mirrors. The margins are whatever you want them to be. So are the results. Stats are like rose coloured sunglasses. Predictable future stats are a crack-smokers dream. If they ever worked, we'd never have wars or sports upsets or any surprises at all.

Hehe, some upset XBox fanboys from North America, are realising outside their home country, XBox360 sales are not even on the sales radar.

The funniest is "this entire article is garbage and based on speculation. . . "

The sales figures, that PS2 sales outstrip combines XBox and Gamecubse sales by a factor of 2, is FACT! And all those PS2 owners, will they buy a Xbox360, and or will they buy PS3, which will play their back catalog?

As for rijp's comment about nobody seeing PS3 until June 2007, this is just hillarious, he seems to know something the rest of the industry does not. Perhaps he is hoping to convince potential PS3 owners, not to wait, and to buy a XBox360, so his console does not go obsolete before the end of the year....

Yeah rijp knows something. He knows that once he is done reading this thread he can go back to playing his xbox360, while you have to sit there and wait.

As for his june 2k7 prediction. Its not that far fetched. Here is why.

1. Bluray specs are not finalized.
2. Final Devkits for the PS3 have yet to be released. Hell EA is still working with a very old version of the devkit, and EA is the largest game publishing company.
3. Production is not forseen to start till late summer at the earliest.

Of the above points the biggest one is the devkits. The PS3 is supposed to be a harder console to program for than its predesesor the PS2, and the PS2 was hailed as being the hardest console to program for.

This press release is obviously is PR spin by Sony to help them out of the jam they are in due to the delays.

great points

but lets not forget the most important one ...

-the longer sony waits to realease the PS3, the lower the production cost will be and the less they will loose with each console sold
( waiting for material's price to go down is a good strategy )

It all depends really. Sure in paper it sounds good to wait for production costs to go down, but when you are in a race like they are right now it is a huge gamble to give your competitor such a huge head start.

I don't have an XBox 360. You couldn't give me one. I will wait for PS3. Thanks.

computer games will keep me busy until then. WoW is out, and D&D online is coming out, and there is an add-on due out for WoW this summer. That, and the Xbox / PS2 games I currently have, will be plenty.

Burnout 3, baby!

Sorry, anytime someone mentions PS2 games, I have to do that. It's programmed in...

you have said words of wisdom,
people who have bought xbox360 are scared that their console is going to be less powerful very soon,there are also people who just cannot wait to buy ps3.

to me delay is good, this way they can make their console better,now i know what kind of reply i will get "sales of xbox have already begun crap crap crap..".

these console are going to in the market for around 5 years, and guess what ps3 is going to be more powerful of the bunch,gamers are going to decide their choice of console on features and prices are going to go down by time.

gaming industry is going and that is why we can expect this industry to grow BY TIME.

im SURE that this industry is NOT going to get saturated.

go read what anand thinks about the INNOVATIVE design of cell, and then use your brain and try to think that how are games of future going to be like.

intel has revealed their strategy in which they have showed what kind of processors they are going to have in future(2k10-15), and it looks like they are going to be like CELL.

i found that cell is going to cost(development) around 600 million, compare that to billions intel spends on marketing of their products.

How does the delay help them make their console better? It makes it work, since the reason for the delay is that they are having issues with the hardware. It's not as if the delay is giving them a chance to upgrade stuff.

In fact, the delay could be looked at this way. If you compare 360 and PS3 hardware and say they are fairly equal when you get down to what capabilities programmers will actually use, it could be argued that PS3 technology will be a year old by release. In fact, it's not arguable, it's fact.

EDIT - And I see no reason why people who have 360's would be scared their console will be less powerful. 360 and PS3 won't make full use of the hardware for some time. And from what I've seen of 360 games so far, I'm more than satisfied. Power is one thing - harnessing that power is another.

Why couldn't someone give you one? Let me guess - You hate Microsoft right? I think that's both a big plus and minus to the xbox and 360. It's Microsoft. Most people either love them or hate them and I'm sure many won't buy it simple because they hate it.

I feel bad for those people as they are missing out on a great console. And I'm no fanboy - I did own the original Playstation - I just opted for Xbox over PS2 and have been very happy with that choice.

The PS2 has jack squat to do with the PS3 having a 50.2 percent market share in 2010. Yes, this article is garbage and based on speculation. Actually it's based on BS that Sony payed them to say. Nothing to see here.

I've got Microsoft Windows. I don't need to waste money on Microsoft XBox360. :P

People say the XBox360 is cheaper than building a computer, but if you want a decent monitor/TV, then it almost becomes cheaper to build a top-of-the-line computer yourself. Since I mostly prefer RPG's, and Elder Scrolls IV is also for PC, I've made my choice.

First of all, I am one of the biggest fans MS has. so you are dead wrong on that issue, boy.

Secondly, the Xbox 360 isn't as strong as the PS3.

Third, I own just about every MS product they make, mice, keyboards, software, OS, so before you go off spouting about something, you know nothing about, first find out WHO you are talking to.

The XBox 360 hasn't impressed me AT ALL. I have a regular 360 with HD, thank you, and I like it just fine. The new games are the main reason I am not going out to buy one, the game selection sucks. I don't like Madden anymore (ESPN football is better), but they have an exclusive contract. The baseball games would rather pay more attention to graphics rather than gameplay, I have games on the PC that I would rather play for adventure and role playing, and that doesn't leave much else.

I am not missing out on a great console, YOU love the 360, good there is more for you to like, but don't go off spouting half c***-a-mamy ideas about how *I* don't like MS, or about how *I* am missing out. *YOU* are misinformed, you prebuscent newb.

Don't go insunuating things you have ZERO knowledge about.

Yes, I agree on that point. Why waste money on an average console, that doesn't have any upgrade path.. I would rather build a PC and play games..

What in the world is a regular 360? If you mean the original Xbox, that's not a 360. You seem pretty defensive by the way, like you're going to start banging on your keyboard and crying any minute. Take a pill...

Well now we know your level of game play.. burnout? HA! Gotham Racing baby!

And when the PS3 comes out, it will be Grand Tourismo 2007! It will blow anything burnout has to offer, out of the water... or the pavement.

Uh, no. Prices don't go down until production has been going, they have'nt even started yet so why would the production cost go down?

PS3 is considerably more powerfull than the current Xbox360, it was even before the XBox360's specs were cut to get it on the shelves sooner.

It's funny, that the same argument that the Xbox fanboys used when Xbox was 1 year later than PS2 (ours is much more powerfull, as it's 1 year newer), are now no longer valid when it comees to PS3 vs Xbox360...

I think you may have a few anger issues you need to deal with. All I did was state what I thouht your reasoning may be - I never stated it as a fact, purely just a question:

"Why couldn't someone give you one? Let me guess - You hate Microsoft right?"

While I was wrong in your case, I'm sure there are others that just hate MS and therefore would never consider a 360.

And is a comment like: "*YOU* are misinformed, you prebuscent newb." supposed to show the rest of us how mature you are?

Don't get me wrong - I think both consoles will be great. I've seen arguments on both sides about which is more powerful.. etc. I don't think power really matters. Like I said - It's how and if you can harness that power that matters. If developers can harness all the power of the PS3, then yes, it may some day out perform the 360.

The real question is, how long will it take before games on either console are using the total potential of that console? What if 360 hits that mark and PS3 never does? What if neither hit it before the next gen is out?

It would be nice to have a ferrari, but if you can't get it out of 3rd gear ever, what good is it? And again, I'm not saying PS3 won't be great - I hope it is. Everyone seems to just assume one way or the other, when fact is, we won't know for at least another year just how good it is. All we can discuss now is what the 360 has to offer since it is out and has 2nd wave of games being released now.

EDIT - In response to: "It's funny, that the same argument that the Xbox fanboys used when Xbox was 1 year later than PS2 (ours is much more powerfull, as it's 1 year newer), are now no longer valid when it comees to PS3 vs Xbox360... "

This is the case, because the PS3 was supposed to have been released already. Xbox was released when it was supposed to be, so developement continued past PS2 development. It's not as if Sony is still working on the hardware and adding newer technology to it. It's just different technology.

I'm sure he means the core, since he stated with HD.

EDIT - I must have hit the wrong reply button - this should have been in response to Skyfrog

2nd EDIT - Actually Skyfrog, I think you may be right. After reading it a 2nd time, it appears he may be talking about plain old xbox.

I find all these comments about power and comparing these two consoles based on this alone to be rather fasical.

It's bizzare that folk actually think they can compare two consoles in terms of power based on hardware alone.

Have a look at the software running on the machines and you can see that these things play major factors.

I read an article that showed benchmarks of comparing Windows XP application performance against WINE. It's odd to think that WINE came out better just based on their implementation of the API.

The true power of these consoles is very much a factor of the programmers behind them.

Wait for the second and third generation of software (how on earth someone draws the line for this alone is beyond me) and then draw comparisons. Anything before that makes you look as foolish as this article is.

Agreed. I purchased my Xbox after many great years with a PS1 and I have to admit I never knew the true value of the Xbox until I had it for some time and explored everything it has to offer.

I recon this will be the same for the current generation of consoles.

And don't discount the ability of modding these consoles impacting popularity and value.

Dude...

Gotham Racing is, like, tiddlywinks compared to Road Rage in Burnout 3 or Burnout: Revenge.

Ya really need to stop passing 'em and step up to slamming them.

because not everybody in sony are going to be working blue ray. it will also give a lot of time to STI and nvidia. look at the heating problems with xbox , sony and Nintendo will have time to prepare their console for such problems.

these consoles are going to be here for around five years and this much time is going to be more than enough for programmers to harness cell's capabilities.

http://www.anandtech.com...oc.aspx?i=2379&p=12

look at intel's strategy.

http://www.anandtech.com...doc.aspx?i=2379&p=2
reason for cell's different architechture

are 3 cores more than 9
is 9gb more than 40gb

because not everybody in sony are going to be working blue ray. it will also give a lot of time to STI and nvidia. look at the heating problems with xbox , sony and Nintendo will have time to prepare their console for such problems.

these consoles are going to be here for around five years and this much time is going to be more than enough for programmers to harness cell's capabilities.

http://www.anandtech.com...oc.aspx?i=2379&p=12

look at intel's strategy.

http://www.anandtech.com...doc.aspx?i=2379&p=2
reason for cell's different architechture

are 3 cores more than 9
is 9gb more than 40gb

"PS2 was hailed as being the hardest console to program for."

it was also the biggest selling console ever, by a seriously large margin. Game houses can dedicate bigger teams of PS3 development, as the sales of the console will be that much larger than the other consoles.

I used to do more PC Gaming, but it's much more comfortable sitting on the couch in front of my 92" screen with just a controller in hand.

First of, projections are not guarantees.

Nintendo was the king back in the mid 90s, till the PS came out. next generation everyone thought Nintendo would still be king due to their high quality in house games but that wasnt the case.

The PS2 is the highest selling console ever because of the Gaming era explosion. It was the right console at the right time. The Gamecube was a bust, the Dreamcast should have been the winner but production problems cost them dearly, the Xbox was the first attempt by MS into the market.

Now a few years later, the Xbox360 is the console to hit the street first. With a stronger more established line up of games than it had when the original Xbox was first released. The PS3 and Evolution will be playing catch up since MS now has atleast a 1 year head start(assuming there are no more delays for either).

if you actually follow In-stat business profile
they're a "for hire" research company ....
who then, do you think "hired" them to come up with the results of this study ???

*** cough !! sony... cough !! ***

This sounds like a study that SONY did themselves.. and are bsing stats.. ppl will not buy a 900 buck machine for gaming.. .. These bs reports most likely come from sony themselves...

sony will not win this round based on their stupid "lets force our own format on you with DRM" and its insane cost...

Where did you get $900 from? For that price, you can buy two of them!!!

perhaps you have problems understanding the difference between COST price, and RETAIL price, and the concept of loss-leaders.

There is no way a console would ever sell for $900, Sony know what. They will make a loss on every console for many years to come, as Microsoft also makes a loss on XBox360's. They make the money back on licences and games.

Don't be so sure, ever heard of Neo Geo? I think those were 800-900 a piece, and that was 15 years ago...

for someone that points out other people's mistaken "facts", you seem to make up an awful lot for yourself....

remember, sony has yet to announce a price.

Very true.

I've seen info that says they may have a console only version that would be more in line with 360 price and another version that supports BlueRay movies that would be another $100-200 more. So a $400-500 version and a $600-700 version may not be out of the question.

All PS3 will be Blu-Ray. It's the HDD that's slightly fuzzy on details, with Ken Kutargi saying all games require it, but not saying if it comes with a HDD...

They will all support BlueRay - But I have heard different things about some not support BlueRay for movies. BlueRay is a format - just because it's BlueRay doesn't mean it will play the movies. It may just support it for games. Show me a link to where it states ALL PS3's will play BlueRay movies. Until we see some evidence of that, I don't think there's any guarantees.

never heard of this BlueRay technology. Link please.

PS3 will come with Blu-Ray, which plays movies. It's in last years E3 spec for PS3. (Note the BD-Video).

Storage
Blu-ray Disc: PlayStation 3 BD-ROM, PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM, BD-Video, BD-R, BD-RE.
DVD: PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW
CD: PlayStation CD-ROM, PlayStation 2 CD-ROM, CD-DA, CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW, SACD, SACD Hybrid (CD layer) SACD HD
Hard Drive: 60 GB, 2.5", detachable/upgradeable, with Linux pre-installed.

Memory Stick standard/Duo and standard/mini slots
CompactFlash Type I and II slot
SD/MMC slot

It was announced on the 14th of March 2006 that all Playstation 3 games will ship on Blu-Ray Rom discs only.

You are basing this off of LAST years E3 specs? Things change. If you go by info from Last year, you should have a PS3 now.

I'm not saying all PS3's definetely won't play Blue-Ray movies - I'm just saying I think there's a chance they may not.

I can't provide a link. Either for or against my argument. Which just proves my point - there's no guarantee of anything, until we get an official update from Sony.

And games can ship on BlueRay media and the console could still not play the movies. It's 2 separate things.

this entire article is garbage and based on speculation. . .

Delay. June 2007. PS3, write it down. That's when we will see the Sony PS3, not before.

I just love stories like this. At the button it should read...

"Even if our about guesses about how the PS3 will sell compared to the xbox 360 are wrong you will not remember this article. More filler stories will come soon."

Despite Delay, the PS3 Still Wins

You mis-spelled "reality".

...I know, I know...the keys are too close, right?

I think you need a drink. you are starting to read between the lines.

Nah, that's what happens when I *don't* drink. ;)

... interesting....

thank you random firm x3-12 ... errr "In-Stat". by chance you don't have a line for the Cuba/Japan WBC game, do you? i'm willing to bet my appendages on your predictions.

i saw this one guy missing an arm in the subway, you think he had the same idea?

I read in a japaneese newspaper you will be able to by 1 for 79.99 at your local Wal-Mart!

Was that supposed to be funny?

I'd believe it since Wal-Mart does more in loss-leaders than Sony :)
The games will probably be $400 a piece so they can make it up , however.

Its pointless to have an xbox360 right now. Because they are changing it by the time PS3 is release(HDDVD player). And PS3 is smart about releasing when it does. Because microsoft starts all over again. And they have a real head to head. Nobody is taking that into account. The 360 you buy now will me sh** by December or early 2007.

You may want to check your facts. The HDDVD drive for the 360 will be for movie viewing only. While it's possible developers could release titles some day on HDDVD discs, it would probably be similiar to how they relase CD and DVD PC Games now - on both media.

The 360 you buy now will be the same you get in December. Even if they added an HDDVD drive to the console, it will not be required for games.

DVD's have plenty of space - Most games barely take up half of the total space.