Symantec: MS Making Vista Insecure

By Nate Mook, BetaNews

October 17, 2006, 4:55 PM

Microsoft's partners are continuing to cry foul over the decision to lock down the Windows Vista kernel with a feature called PatchGuard, claiming an announcement about sharing security APIs is simply a "red herring" to fool the press.

The contentious issue revolves around the ability of security vendors to write applications that essentially "patch" the Windows kernel to protect it from viruses and other malware. With PatchGuard, Vista attempts to do this on its own, in turn thwarting both protectors and attackers.

While partners such as Symantec, McAfee and Sunbelt Software understand the intentions of PatchGuard, they allege that Microsoft is actually making the operating system less secure by locking out third parties. These companies say that patching the kernel is of critical importance to security software, especially when new threats surface.

This is where opinions diverge. Microsoft, along with security software firms Sophos and Kaspersky don't believe that patching the operating system is a necessity for security, and say PatchGuard shouldn't get in the way of application developers. In fact, Sophos says it has no need to currently access the internals of the Windows kernel.

Symantec and McAfee, which are much larger than both Sophos and Kaspersky combined, dispute that viewpoint. They utilize kernel patching to stop viruses from shutting down security software with a feature called Tamper Protection, as well as for Behavior Blocking and host-based intrusion prevention systems (HIPS).

"The more general problem illustrated by the Tamper Protection example is as follows: Currently when a security company needs to provide security against a certain class of threat, we are able to do so even if Microsoft does not offer an API. With PatchGuard Microsoft is stepping in and changing the rules," says Rowan Trollope, Symantec’s VP of Consumer Products and Solutions.

Essentially, PatchGuard detects unauthorized patches of certain data structures or code in the kernel and in turn initiates a system shutdown. Microsoft has not specified what exactly will take place if such a patch is discovered, but Symantec claims a Windows computer will give a "blue screen of death" and turn off.

Most consumers, however, are unlikely to see any problems initially. PatchGuard will only affect 64-bit versions of Windows Vista, and x64 Editions of Windows are rarely sold in retail or to consumers. Nonetheless, Windows Vista will include both 32-bit and 64-bit versions in the box, and OEMs are likely to begin pushing 64-bit systems once the new operating system begins shipping early next year.

"When Vista 64 gets released, we will not have the APIs we need, and Microsoft expects customers to stand-by, unprotected, waiting for 'multiple upcoming Windows releases as we understand the exact requirements'," adds Trollope.

Symantec claims it has attempted to work with Microsoft for two years on the issue, but the Redmond company has refused to budge from its position. Trollope says Symantec proposed alternatives, such as leaving PatchGuard in place but offering a secure API for security vendors.

"There has been a lot of confusion based on what Microsoft has said publicly. First, to be clear, Symantec already uses all available security related APIs provided by Microsoft. The key word here is 'available'; there are no available APIs for these advanced protection technologies we offer today," explains Trollope.

For its part, Microsoft says it is trying to work with partners on the PatchGuard issue. The company also asserts that its own new security products such as Windows Live OneCare and Forefront do not have any advantage, although Symantec notes that Microsoft's offerings also don't include any advanced protection technologies.

"We’re totally committed to working with ISVs, and have been working with them for years now, to provide new documented and supported interfaces in 64-bit versions of Windows that will allow them to leverage the kernel on x64bit systems. Thus enabling a comparable level of functionality to what they have today on x32bit systems without direct access to the kernel," remarked Stephen Toulouse, a security expert who recently left Microsoft's Security Response Center for the Vista team.

But another problem, critics say, is that PatchGuard primarily hamstrings Microsoft's security partners, not the hackers. Symantec claims it has already figured out ways around PatchGuard, which means hackers have as well. But if Symantec were to release a product that bypasses the protection, Microsoft has promised an update to Vista that will cause the computer "to bluescreen."

"We of course cannot pursue a path when Microsoft tells us that they will bluescreen our customers machines. Hackers on the other hand have no such issues. Once they workaround patchguard (which they already have), they don’t really care if the system becomes unstable or bluescreens or anything else," asserts Trollope. "So in fact PatchGuard works in favor of hackers in this case."

JupiterResearch senior analyst and Microsoft pundit Joe Wilcox broke down the argument for BetaNews. "The situation is like this: Before, Microsoft security partners could take whatever path they wanted to climb the mountain and reach the summit," he said. "Now, they will have to use Microsoft security APIs, which create a path--and the only way they're allowed to go up the mountain."

"But Microsoft's APIan Way won't take them all the way to the summit. There is going to be a problem if the hackers can scale up to the summit by another route, while the security vendors are stuck below on the path," Wilcox added.

Sunbelt Software CEO Alex Eckelberry agrees with Symantec's conclusion. "Folks, this is a real issue. Microsoft has created a PR coup by “agreeing” to give APIs to security companies. It’s a red herring," he said. "The security industry needs full access to the kernel. Period."

With Windows Vista expected to be released to manufacturing before the end of the month, third party security vendors are unlikely to see any of their demands fulfilled - at least before launch. What's still unclear is how this will change Microsoft's partner landscape. Symantec was once a close bedfellow to Redmond and a major supporter of the Windows XP launch in 2001.

Now, Microsoft has become a competitor.

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By Mutal1ty

edited Oct 21, 2006 - 4:40 PM

message to the security companies....

Guuuys guuuys cmon you knew sooner or later microsoft would try and repair its bad reputation with security, Vista kernel lockdown is "kinda" that answer. You make money by #1 protecting the computers of the retarded worldwide who can't tell the difference between "britneynude.jpg" and "britneynude.jpg.exe" and #2 you profit from the over exageration of the media about the dangers of the internet by playing on human fears. Maybe you silly folks should have thought like google and started hiring really smart people through mathematical problem billboards and expanded into other areas of the software industry. Microsoft finally does something RIGHT, and you start talking trash because they were too innovative for your tastes and made your fear driven cash cow almost useless.... this isn't the "monopoly trying to shut you down" this is microsoft trying to actually make a quality product for once.

You lose.

oh for all you griefers out there, this is the bottom line, I hate microsoft and thier attitude and s***y programs just as much as the next person, but this CRAP the security companies are spewing is basically entirely BS and Laziness... they can still make their programs, they may have to rewrite a lot of code, but THATS TO BE EXPECTED, its a whole NEW OS, and a much more SECURE kernel.... if they can't deal with it they need to fire their sirpatch a lot programmers and rehire the really good ones they fired after the original programs were complete and they figured they didn't NEED the extra expense of the uber skilled programmers and decided to dump them for some fresh grad patch babies. Bottom line is its THEIR problem, not microsofts, this entire debate is BULLSH1T plain and simple.

Score: 0

By joeshmoe7

posted Oct 21, 2006 - 6:56 PM

right on

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By tucumarilaw

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 12:43 PM

Why can't I lock my own door instead of hiring a guard to stand in the living room? I know the guard wants to be paid, and if my lock does not work I will pay. The fact that horse drawn wagon makers are not in business is the consumers fault, not Honda's.

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By aussiebear

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 5:28 PM

Well, there's really no one to blame but Microsoft for all this soap opera.

Here's what I mean...

Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Microsoft had their own AV solution for MS-DOS. They were their own providers of security (if you can call it that)...Don't you remember MSAV?...But somewhere along the way, they decided to hand over the responsibility of security and cleanup to third-parties. (Symantec, McAfee, etc, etc).

Over the next 10yrs, these third-parties have thrived on Microsoft's poor security policies and practices in their OSs. (yeap, it was and still is a joke). We're talking a Multi-Billion dollar industry being formed! They were and still are, raking in the cash! (Using fear of "concept malware" to keep the general population inline.)

Security companies have been enjoying MS's lax security in their solutions for quite a while now...That is, until Vista came along.

Vista adopted quite a number of security concepts found in open-source projects, such as from PaX and OpenBSD. I don't doubt their Linux Research Lab played a part in this. As it is there role to study weaknesses and ways to undermine open-source...It is the thing standing in their way at this time. (Which is suprising and ironic, considering Microsoft have been publically smearing open-source for the last five years, calling it "Communist" and "Cancer"...I guess open-source is only good when Microsoft uses it).

Anyway, its like MS has taken the rug right under these security companies with Vista. They ain't happy. (And some of these security companies are downright mean if you threaten their profits!)

Previously, they weren't able to do anything about it...That is until the European antitrust case against Microsoft. (Again, no one to blame but Microsoft for its own business practices...With antitrust cases in both USA and South Korea).

For the first time, these security companies can pressure Microsoft into what they want!

Symantec has been around for quite a while, and know Microsoft will do anything to get off via some sort of technicality or via some public stunt. This is why they're saying MS isn't doing enough.

Examples:

(1) Back in the 1990's, where MS was taken to court the first time (antitrust), Bill Gates whipped out a retail box of Red Hat Linux, just to say Windows is not the dominate desktop OS. I think the tactic assumed the Judge didn't know anything about computers. Unfortunately (or fortunately), the Judge didn't buy it. MS was found guilty and fined. Sadly, it appeared to be nothing but a wristslap at best. Years later, nothing had really changed. In 2005, South Korea and Europe filed for antitrust in their respective regions.

(2) The adoption of the Open Document Format by the state of Massachusetts. MS sponsored a project to create a converter for its upcoming MS Office. So you can convert too and from ODF and OpenXML.

But the thing is, sponsoring doesn't mean taking an active part! So what do you have? A half-arse product written by volunteers that technically meets Massachusetts's open policy!

It doesn't matter that its not as part of "Save As" in the new Office, and that its delibrately made hard for the user. (such that the user won't really bother saving it as ODF...So that MS can maintain control of the document formats!)

Symantec clearly knows of Microsoft's tricks in an effort to get themselves off the hook.

So really, there is no one to blame but Microsoft themselves! That's the root cause of all these problems!

(1) They were the ones that essentially created the empires of Symantec, McAfee, etc with their half arsed solutions. If they had been doing things right from the very beginning, they wouldn't have gain this reputation as a joke when the word "security" is mentioned in the same room. Essentially, they've created the monster they're fighting.

(2) They were the ones with the anti-competitive business practices. If they hadn't acted like this in the last 10 yrs or so, you'd see something really different. There would be no court cases against MS for monopolistic practices or anti-trust. (And there are atleast 100 such filed cases in America alone...This is ALL for Microsoft! They can do this, because they are so rich, that they can afford to settle out of court!)...Bundling apps with the OS now becomes a major issue for Microsoft and no one else, because they have been found guilty of delibrately doing it to crush competition. (Netscape is the famous victim of this practice).

What makes things worse, is that Microsoft thinks it can use its Marketing machine and public influence to make people think something is happening when it really isn't. (This isn't anything new, its a tactic that has been played far too many times, and its getting VERY VERY old...Why do you think the rise of the anti-Microsoft troll have exploded? Its because of Microsoft! People realise what's really going on!)

Now when MS wants to actually do something good for once, they can't! Simply because of what they've done in the past!

In summary, its this:
"What goes around, comes around."

Or if you've done physics...
"For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction."

If you don't piss people off in the first place, they wouldn't treat you like crap in return.

You can be successful in life...But how you get there and who you step on, is what becomes important later on.

Score: 0

By Silentmaster101

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 2:07 PM

Hey, you know what? im just going to use a version of linux that boots off a cd and never worry about anyone doing anything bad to my system ever again.

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By uberfly

posted Oct 20, 2006 - 9:32 PM

I would use linux too if its apps didn't suck and wasn't such a pain in the a** to use. Oh yea, and I enjoy playing the latest games. Guess I won't be switching to linux.

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By the artist

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 4:07 PM

Hey, interesting approach. It won't be attacked by Win viruses but, is it true that you couldn't be infected that way??? Any chance?

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By ds0934

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 1:11 PM

MS will never win the PR war. If they continue, they'll be bashed for being monopolistic and overly controlling. If they relent, they'll be bashed for continuing to provide vulnerable products. Add this to abortion, gun control and whatever else nobody agrees on.

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By plague201

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 12:58 PM

Does this mean that someone could create an internet worm that tries to change the kernal, and effective keep turning workstations off? If so, I'll take he challenge.

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By Man@Work

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 11:53 AM

For those comments of 'I'll take my chances.' and 'I don't care' and 'I never wear protection.'
I think of this little saying:
'Those who settle for what they get, get what they deserve.'

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By Silentmaster101

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 2:08 PM

hey i dont know about you but i use condoms when working with my computer. i can't get a virus now, right?

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By Yakumo

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 11:51 AM

I just loved this so much I had to paste it :
----------------------------------------------

Posted by GXMAN (2 posts) on Wednesday, Oct 18, 2006, 2:16 am

- IP: Hidden


Symantec needs to stay out of this and put a lid on it. What they are saying actually contradicts themselves.

On one hand, Symantec says that if Microsoft does this, it will make Windows less secure.

On the other hand, they are saying that it will lock them out.

Ok, now correct me if I'm wrong, but if they are locked out of it and can't get in (keeping in mind they are a security software company), then how is this a "less secure" operating system?

ANSWER ME THAT SYMANTEC!!!!

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By bmartinson

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 1:08 PM

Uh, the article *already* answers your "question". You may want to read it again.

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By Yakumo

posted Oct 19, 2006 - 4:54 AM

I don't beleive them.

Symantec and McAffe are the only ones complaining and they're the biggest s*** peddlers there are.

the other A/V companies have publicly announced they already have working solutions without any problem.

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By I'm Batman

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 11:39 AM

I really couldn't care either way. I've had Symantec and McAfee virus scanners and they're the worst scanners I've ever used and will never put them on my system ever again. For bad or good... I couldn't care less!

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By illone

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 11:10 AM

I have never bought a new microsoft product until literally a year after the release date. Microsoft can not stop hackers or predict what they will target. Save your money and use XP as long as you can. In a year or two Vista may be a good purchase

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By Man@Work

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 11:01 AM

Given the history of poor performance by Microsoft to address virus/security issues on it's XP platform and the ready response of third party software vendors to patch the holes that hackers/malicous program use. The Window's user community should use their combined power to force Microsoft to allow these third party vendors the same kernel access in Vista that they had in XP. It comes down to 'who do you trust', I do trust my anti-virus/security software much more than I trust Microsoft to protect my system from new intrusion. Microsoft plays catch-up to these third party vendors who live and die on the cutting edge between us (the users) and the enemy (the hacks). Plan to boycott Vista in all forms until our trusted vendors of security software are satisfied that they can protect us from hacker's and Microsoft.

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By The Man

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 3:22 PM

"It comes down to 'who do you trust',"

you got that right!

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By reubentech

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 11:00 AM

Once again I smell monopoly.

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By avrie00

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 9:09 AM

It's a rare occurance when both sides of a dispute have completely valid arguments. Microsoft not only has the right, but an obligation to protect it's customers from attacks in the most effective way it can. Conversly security vendors require the flexibility to stay ahead of ever evolving threats. Especialy with the increasing prevelance of zero Day exploits. The real problem is that there is an argument at all. The security companies are in the business of protecting Microsofts consumers and should be treated as partners not competitors. What's next ... GM telling airbag manufacturers that they must install their products outside the car because GM already provide seat belts? All of the companies involved need to realize they are on the same team, fighting the same battles, or the only possible winner will be the hackers.

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By Quasievil

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 7:47 AM

Giving the "security" companies access to the kernel would also give virus writers access to the kernel wouldn't it? Symantec and McAfee are two bloated pieces of software as it is. "..Microsoft expects customers to standby, unprotected.." I love that line. I haven't run antivirus software in years. I think I'll take my chances WITHOUT a 15% reduction in my computing resources.

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By Aires

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 4:25 AM

Is it somehow more refreshing to slag off Symantec and McAfee? Symantec is bloated so we'll choose to ignore how much we usually hate Microsoft and conveniently forget about McAfee. Yeah, we're bored with slagging off Microsoft so we'll slag off Symantec today for a change.

Yes Norton is bloated and yes it is pretty crappy in my opinion, but in a lot of average users opinions who are very familiar with Norton, guess what - they like it!

And you are all missing the point by miles and miles and miles.

I'm not disputing that Kaspersky and Sophos are good (although I wouldn't touch them myself) but so what that they don't feel they need to patch the kernel to offer protection. Symantec and McAfee are inferior and more unreliable because they do? For as many people as you can come up with that have had problems with Norton and McAfee there will be 10 times more people who haven't.

Look, if a hacker can find away around PatchGuard and can get to the kernel which will shutdown your pc (i) how long will it take for Microsoft to issue a security update and (ii) how will you start your pc to install the security update?

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By PC_Tool

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:20 AM

Meh...OK.

I'm still pissed off about their licensing switch. Not really in the mood to defend them on this one.

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By acronos

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 9:00 AM

Practically all of the stability problems that exist in windows that are not hardware related stem from device drivers and antivirus software. Vista was designed to solve both of these. The device drivers and antivirus software have been taken out of the kernal for very good reasons. There is still an important place for 3rd party antivirus software. However, the only people who should patch the kernel are microsoft. If the governments will leave microsoft alone on this issue, it should be the biggest improvement in windows stability and security that has ever happened to windows. Symantec and Mcafee are lieing. In this instance, microsoft did the right thing.

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By Aires

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 12:04 PM

"There is still an important place for 3rd party antivirus software."

No disputing that but I reiterate my point (and I mean this seriously) - if a hacker can find away around PatchGuard and can get to the kernel which will shutdown your pc (i) how long will it take for Microsoft to issue a security update and (ii) how will you start your pc to install the security update?

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By robandden

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 3:34 AM

Here we go again with Microsoft bashing.

It's simple really, don't like the product, find another and stop whining.

For years there were complaints about the lack of security in Windows, finally it starts to do it right and then the AV companies complain they are hard done by, MS can't win.

To be honest, I feel that AV companies are like lawyers, they thrive on misery, if there were no nasties there would be no reason for them to exist.

So many people complain about Windows yet no one forced them to use it.

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By macho_king

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 9:23 AM

Read all the hulaboo concerning Microsoft and the AV companies. I think the comment by "robandden" posted Oct 18,2006-3:34 AM is just RIGHT!

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By pjb

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 2:07 AM

I guess that Symantec just wants to get in and sc*ew up your new OS, slow it down, trash it and then blame MS saying it's their product!

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By Neoprimal

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 1:47 AM

It's funny to see all the Linux and Apple junkies who sneak in to hijack threads away from the content of the post. Good grief, why concern yourselves with Vista news at all?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I completely agree with what MS is doing. Leave the patching of the kernel to the people who are dealing with maintaining the core security of the OS. Mcafee and Norton need to find an alternative route to have their products work. I was a heavy norton supporter for a very long time, but since 2002/03 things have been going completely downhill....once your symantec product has a problem, it takes your xp installation with it...same with Mcafee. I remember a mcafee update that detected about 30% of the uninstallers on my machine as viruses and wiped them out. This will force these companies to evolve and rework the design of how the products work at all and in the end be better for users. Symantec has eaten so many different companies it's unclear to me how their products stay the same, apart from cosmetic changes (mostly).
I hope MS sticks to their guns and keeps their kernel sacred.

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By shawcomputer

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 1:31 AM

I think that Symantec is starting to loose their edge. The smaller companies like Sophos and Kaspersky already have higher detection rates and use a lot less system resources. As a very loyal user of Norton Antivirus, I am sorry to say I have already switched a vast majority of business to Kaspersky. Symantec has 2 choices:
1. Innovate some new product that is small and nimble yet provides excellent detection rates against not only viruses, but also malware, spyware, and rootkits.

2. Fall behind in the consumer market and rely on expensive security appliances in the small to medium business market to survive.

Score: 0

By joeb261554

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 12:39 AM

I believe that Symantec has a horrible product. They want even more control than they do now. When you install their software it burrows into the registry and when you try to remove it, it makes windows unstable and crash.
I have not had the same problems with Mcaffee software. I have had it for a while and it works great. My company who is an invotator in technology uses Mcaffee as well.
I think Microsoft should secure their operating system yes, but not allowing for a collaboration of minds is foolish. They are saying that we are the great OS God and bow down to us.
All they are going to do is cause smarter people than they are to crash the OS. Who wants to wait for that? Do like everyone else in a windows world. 1. Find an alternative or 2. Wait until Vista has been out awhile and had a major over haul like XP did with SP1 and 2. When they did this they created essentially a new OS. Wait until the big PR battle is over and then buy the new computer with Vista or upgrade to it. Windows XP SP2 works fine. I have Windows XP SP2 at home on my network and Achronis Drive Image software to back up everything. As well as Mcaffee security center. I haven't had a problem in a while. I will be upgrading to a faster computer soon, but it will have XP on it until the OS is completely stable.

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By TC17

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 11:58 PM

Microsoft is just putting Vista into its own grave before its even released. I can't imagine anyone wanting to run this overpriced ....

Its even slower than WindowsXP for games. Not counting Microsoft is now going to limit your reactivating your license to ONE time if you upgrade your computer.

Nothing like stealing from your paying customers is there Microsoft. And thats exactly what it is.

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By throwaway

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 11:28 PM

I agree with some of the posters who say Symantec products are bloated and use too much resources. I dumped their AV a few months ago. As for their assertations about kernel security, they just look like self-serving statements. Symantec has long exploited the security holes in Windows for profit, so when MS finally takes some solid measures to increase security, Symantec's business model will be threatened.

Good job getting comments from Sophos and Kaspersky; especially the part when "they don't believe that patching the operating system is a necessity for security."

Score: 0

By bsf

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 12:26 AM

Er, this question may be out of place, but anyone recommend any good Anti-virus softwares? I'm still using NAV, but it's getting more and more tiring to see it taking up so much memory. I don't care about the price, and I work in multilingual enviornment... McAfee's totally out of question, Kaspersky seems not bad.. but what else?

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By pittbull

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 1:13 AM

i have removed all symantec programs from work and home comps and have installed all of them with avg 7.5 from grisoft seems to be the best around and not a resource hog.

Score: 0

By jshurst

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:18 AM

I'm using TrendMicro Pccillan, and have been for a while. I really like it. It scans for viruses, spyware, and window's vulnerabilities (via windows update I'm sure). It also has a great firewall and network detection monitor.

I just upgraded to the new version (I was using 2005) and it seem that it is getting more bloated, but I still like it. I got the 2005 for free after rebates, and this time I got 2007 for $9.

Score: 0

By avrie00

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:16 AM

Try Avast 4.7 professional. It's small, fast, inexpensive, and is already tested with Vista 64. I dumped my norton last year and have no plans on going back ;-)

Score: 0

By smarterthanyou

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 4:34 AM

Alwil's Avast anti virus software is by far the best product I've seen so far. It is one of the most accurate anti virus products on the market currently. The best part is that Avast is completely free with no strings attached for home non commercial use.

Score: 0

By shawcomputer

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 1:36 AM

I have sold Norton for over 10 years. I have switched almost exclusively to Kaspersky. Have had great success with their product. Don't be alarmed when it finds all the spyware that your current products have been missing.

Score: 0

By ghammer

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 11:18 PM

Let the OS developer patch the kernel. Security providers should concentrate on stopping malware from getting to the kernel. Personally, I would NOT want Symantec on my system at all, to allow them to play with the core of the OS is insane.

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By rolandmi

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 10:47 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the further away any Symantec product is from my OS the better. I am in the IT field and there products are horrible. The best code they have ever written is there own removal tool to remove this bloat-ware. I have made alot of money from getting this crap off peoples PC's. McAfee is not much better.... Kaspersky is the way to go.

Score: 0

By Im_Nio

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 10:30 PM

I agree with dragongild that the kernal that McAfee and Symantic need to evolve. Here's another thought. If they've found a way around MS's PatchGuard then why not adapt their systems to guard those vulnerabilities?

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By mtnbkr

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 10:55 PM

Buy a Mac and don't bother with all this cr*p. A superior operating system and the best hardware available today!

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By avrie00

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:19 AM

Microsoft is just a larger target ... at Black hat this year all of the macs got hacked first

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By shawcomputer

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 1:40 AM

I agree the Mac OS has its perks. Now that they are using Intel chips, I can't wait until they start selling the OS separately so I can build custom solutions without using Apples trendy and expensive proprietory hardware.

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By smarterthanyou

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 4:36 AM

Never going to happen.

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By tljensen

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 10:25 PM

I have been a reluctant Microsoft user, partly because of their past lack of security, and a so-so operating system that evolved from a demonstration project. Long ago there were several quite good real time operating systems with real security, but those vendors held onto their soon to be obsolete architectures. They did not take upstart Microsoft seriously, or the market demand for cheap computers. What Microsoft lacked in technical ability they made up with marketing. Now they have grown up, and have some real software engineering talent, including VMS expertise, which has helped NT considerably. I am in favor of taking the shackles off of the developers, and let them make a kernal that is safe from attack. Too bad for Symantec and the rest. I get tired of spending hours each week down loading virus updates and WIndows patches for all my computers. It is Microsofts responsibility, let them fix it, and let the market be the judge. Go Microsoft!

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By wisemeat

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 12:46 AM

As Arnold would say in Terminator....HASTA LA VISTA baby.

Go Microsoft! Thats what I used to say too. Goodbye!

Its like a snail. Catching every virus/trojan/malware/spyware that comes it way. Now MicroSloth wants you to buy a new PC thats Vista ready. Its because they cant get their new bloatware to run on a slower computer. It also wants you to pay for their One Care charging you year after year while still letting you catch colds and deathly ill.

Microsoft will only give you "one care" and then they could care less once you have bought their new product. They will hobble it along untill you are praying that they release something else better because your spending more and more time trying to "protect" your system. Isnt that how you feel right now with XP? Later on the holes will be discovered and you will be left with nothing but a few shiny Vista disks. LOL You are already drooling to get Vista because XP runs like Junk...take a look at how long Vista is taking to develop...its like XP all over again and it will turn out to be junk too.

When it comes out, peope will say Vista is "better". They will want to believe it is and so will you. You will want to believe the ad campaign and party MS throws. You will go out and buy it and it will for a little while and then it will again render your computer and life into JUNK. It will show its holes and fall prey to hack after hack. Hack Hack Vista Attack. LOL Slowly the quality of your life will go downhill as the bugs start eating more and more holes in this mushy platform.

Microsoft is the company thats great at making good "flashy prismatic lures". Heck I thought about buying a mac when a flashy windows "CE" came out. Then I found out the hard way that was junk so I shelled out more cash to get "XP" taking that shiny CD hook line and sinker. XP is also JUNK. Full of holes spent a lot of time and dough keeping my PC.

They sold XP as a solution but it wasnt. In a few months hackers will start to chip away at its weaknesses. Vista will go the same way....sucking you into upgrading your software and hardware all for a few weeks bought time before a weakness comes out and leaves you holding a dirty bad again.

H'ASTA LA VISTA baby.

Get rid of Microsoft software....Terminate it! Get rid of Norton antivirus. Get rid of Norton firewall cause it doesnt work. Get rid of Symantec. Chuck McAfee as far as you can throw it. Throw away spybot search and destroy. Throw away spywareblaster, MS Onecare give it the one finger salute!, Avast anti virus, Spywareblaster, webroot, ghostsurf, lavasoft ad-aware, Fireball, Grisoft antivirus, Panda and on and on. Throw away your MS Office and use OpenOffice instead, dont even think about buying office for the mac...dont give Microsoft one penny. Have I missed any? Its all like a bad dream I'm glad to have walked away from. You wont be needing any of that junk.

I was going bankrupt trying to keep my wintel box running microsoft products. Spending way too much time patching, updating and scanning my computer. Now Microsoft wants to hose you all again by making you continue to by your OS over and over again for getting hacked! Microsoft wants you to buy a new computer....

So go ahead and buy a new computer...get an apple that can run windows too. Get a Mac with OS X. Get an apple and stay healthy! LOL Ready to go right from the box. No linux hurdles to cross, just a friendly easy to use computer. Load a free copy of Clam Xav antivirus if you want (you likely wont need it). Use OS X firewall. Splurge for a hardware firewall if you feel you need one (you likely dont but I moved my PC's hardware firewall over). At worst you can run your old PC software on your mac with Parallels or boot camp, but most people will find they can move on completely. You likely wont need it if you look for a OS X solution. For the small amount of software you will actually buy specific for the mac you will be glad you removed XP completely from your system.

Score: 0

By terminalx

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:26 PM

if you did some research (which of course you did not and truly are just a troll with a lot of hot air to spit out) Have you even tried Vista? No? then you have no foot to stand on...had you actually tried it Vista runs fine on older hardware....my pc is 1.83 ghz I bought it 4 yrs ago only changes I have made was upgraded the video card and ram that was a year and half ago before I even tried out Vista...and it runs Vista better then it runs XP...no way should anyone have access to the kernal except microsoft...mcafee and symantec as a antivirus, anti malware, and firewall solution are mediocre at best their privacy tools I wouldnt know anything about only used the latter...xp has run fine on my machine the holes that are being discovered havent been exploited and apple has security updates as well...sure would love to know how you were going bankrupt...apple releases a new os every 2 yrs only most people would call it an update they call it a new OS

Score: 0

By rustik_one

edited Oct 18, 2006 - 7:59 AM

"At worst you can run your old PC software on your mac with Parallels or boot camp, but most people will find they can move on completely. You likely wont need it if you look for a OS X solution. For the small amount of software you will actually buy specific for the mac you will be glad you removed XP completely from your system."

"Small amount" is right! Comparatively, that's about all there is available for Mac vs PC, or Linux vs PC for that matter. And emulation is unreliable at best. Windows has it's issues, but I actually want to use my computer for more than just a security advertisement to brag on in forums. Sure, software developers should make more offerings for Mac and Linux, but they don't, and I'll not soon hamstring myself productivity- and entertainment-wise in the vain hope that I'll be the final statistic software developers were waiting for to turn things around.

Score: 0

By smarterthanyou

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 4:46 AM

Why would I want to spend $1299 for a MacBook laptop when I can get superior hardware from Dell with an equally powerful OS (either Windows XP or Windows Vista). On the MacBook laptops you only get a crappy 13-inch screen with a resolution of 1280 x 800. On a Dell laptop for the same price you can get a 15.4-inch widescreen monitor with a resolution of 1680 x 1050. The Dell also has double the RAM (1GB on the Dell vs 512MB on the MacBook).

Score: 0

By dragongild

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 8:52 PM

I saw an MS presentation about this technology two years ago, as did many MS Premier partners. I truly believe that Patch Guard is a good thing.

ANY third parties patching the kernel is a bad thing, whether they be black hats or white.

If Symantec is seeing BSODs, these issues probably are caused by their own poorly conceived and executed products behaving badly. If Sophos doesn't need to patch the Kernel, then why does Symantec and McAfee?

Why is this really such an issue? Symantec and McAfee have built their business model upon protecting dated software technology. Well guess what - the software is going to evolve. Symantec and McAfee need to evolve as well to deal with new threats, such as personal data security, identity theft, phishing, etc.

It seems to me that the pond is still plenty big and that there are still plenty of fish for all; however, some of the anglers need to be updating their tackle.

Score: 0

By jtb100

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 10:17 PM

dragongild,
i think you might be missing a little here. neither sophos no kaspersky offer the same level of behavioral blocking engines that mcafee and symantac are trying to offer. they opperate at a different level looking more at definitions (classical av technology) and not so much at process behaviors.
as mentioned in the article... just because ms publishes certain api's to vendors to use, doesn't mean everyone else (yes, including those with malicious intent) will as well.

security by obscurity is not a security strategy i trust.

Score: 0

By cranbers

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 8:48 PM

This must just be for high end servers they are complaining about becasue 64bit windows is pretty much worthless in the consumer market. I tried it and it really didn't do anything different. So whats the point? Yes the ram limitation but who needs more then that anyway? I have 2gb and never go beyond 1 gb being used. Servers and high end intensive business programs now that is another thing.

Score: 0

By hiddennook

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 7:45 PM

Gee M$! Now what am I suppose to use?

If anybody wants to rely on M$ for anti-virus security, you have greater faith than I!

I guess I am going to have to simply stick with XP for a while until M$ and Symantic (plus friends) resolve this.

If that does not work out, I guess I'll have to pay somebody to make a few window programs "Mac friendly." (and yes, I am serious about that).

Score: 0

By Speed33

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 8:52 PM

"Gee M$! Now what am I suppose to use?"

Get smart and use this:

http://fedora.redhat.com/

Score: 0

By school1012

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 5:32 PM

Sure, takes twice as long to install. Takes 5x as long to use. It will save alot of time

I'll stay with Vista.

Score: 0

By school1012

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 8:32 PM

Well I guess you will go bankrupt trying to convert all your software to macs, that no one will buy.

Score: 0

By Zackajaweea

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 7:59 PM

cool.. stick with XP then. Who cares!

Score: 0

By hiddennook

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 7:46 PM

Or I guess I could always use Linux (I guess I better start learning).

Score: 0

By DraconPern

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 8:49 PM

Good luck! You'll need it. I have been using Linux since Slackware 4, and it still has a long way to go on the desktop.

Score: 0

By Speed33

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 9:17 PM

Try Fedora Core 5. I've been using Fedora since Core 3. Core 5 is an outstanding Linux desktop flavor. It's super stable, secure, super easy to keep current ( including ALL installed apps ), and it cost absolutely zero, as do 1000's of apps. Core 6 is coming soon and promises even greater things. The problem isn't the OS. The problem is generally the lack of willingness on the Windows user's part to learn how to do something in a way other than the Windows way. So, many are lazy and content being stuck with an OS that keeps them in computer usage darkness and in an insecure environment. They have a choice though and are not victims.

Linux has, and has had for a while, a desktop system that rivals XP easily. You don't have to be a genius to use it either. I do say you have to learn new ways and different ways and have to apply yourself a little. That's usually bad news for Windows users. They expect Walgreen's perfect little world or something where everything is served to them on a silver platter. Redmond absolutely loves that.

I use Linux in a Windows world and have absolutely no problem, no blue screens and no Gates wallet raids.

Score: 0

By terminalx

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:29 PM

I havent even seen a BSOD since Windows 2000...

Score: 0

By KSzostek

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 8:17 PM

Good then use it!

Score: 0

By GoodThings2Life

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 7:07 PM

OK, Symantec is officially retarded now.

Score: 0

By wisemeat

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 6:28 PM

Security vendors are likely the ones developing code that breaks into the kernal to begin with. Now that MS has locked them out of the kernal, or offers a blue screen of death to both users who use pay for the anti virus software or not, it will make it so that there will be no advantage for the antivirus company to secretly develop code that benefits their sales. MS will be able to be informed of the flaw when the blue screen occurs so the the operating system can be properly patched without causing conflicts. More control less issues.

While we are at it, why isnt the kernal placed on a locked flash drive? If a new patch becomes available, it gets downloaded and the user manually unlocks the flash drive to add the stronger code. Fast, more secure and easier to manage. If the hackers cant modify the kernal how can they hack it on a locked flash drive? Just an idea. Personally I'd like to see an ability to load office and other apps on flash drives. Imagine a computer thats ready to go as soon as the powers turned on. That would be sweet.

Myself, I was forced to switch to a mac and havent regretted it. Was constantly getting hacked on the PC and they just just blew through all the retail protection products anyways. You buy the Norton or Symantic flawed software and it didnt help anyways, hackers know how to get past those defenses as they know many users are using it. I used to rebuild my PC every few months, hardware firewalls nothing could stop the hackers even after locking the system down. It would often get hacked even trying to update the operating system. XP is junk and they touted it as more secure.

Now that I use a mac, I have found software that did everything I was using on the PC. The system is fast and stable. In fact I could leave it on and connected to the web for months without having to reboot. I doubt this Vista will be much better without doing something drastic like using flash drives to protect code.

In any event, you couldnt pay me to use a PC now. All those hours constantly updating software and scanning and removing spyware and junk, what a total waste of time. I have a computer now that doesnt lock up and is a lot stronger against attacks. Its been worry free and a whole lot better user experience. Imagine a computer that just works and is a joy to use.

Macs are sweet indeed.

Score: 0

By terminalx

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:31 PM

sounds like you have very little knowledge of security if you keep getting spyware on your pc...
hence why a mac works for you you dont have to worry about doing anything stupid anymore...for now

Score: 0

By wisemeat

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 7:51 PM

Add up the time on a sheet of paper all the time you spend scanning for updates, removing spyware or other such things with a PC or your macs in your office or home. Add up the value of all the yearly protection software you buy. Heck add up the boot time its takes to start your computer or all the upgrades you spend to get a bloated MS operating system to run smoothly. You want a new "Vista ready" machine now. LOL A whole bunch more investment. LOL Heck add up all the money you give to Microsoft for XP and Office and compare that to what a mac will give you. I dont care what anyone says XP has holes in it that were not getting fixed no matter what you had-I know cause I was getting hacked on one. XP was flawed from the ground up, MS Office is terribly flawed and there was nothing you could do to protect yourself without starting to spend more in security products then what most users PC cost. Vista will be the same thing you just watch. After all history is a good guide when looking at the future. I got sick of calling Microsloth after running out of new keys and needing a new key to rebuild my machine.

Unless your a company willing to shell out big dollars for some industrial router, the average home user buying off the shelf products, off the shelf hardware firewalls to protect their PC are hopelessly hacked. I hear people all the time say their PC isnt hacked. I go over there and check it out and their machine is already sending junk mail to other machines or worse...basically a controlled bot. They just dont know it because the computer still runs. They try to forget about their computer doing strange things periodically or having to reboot it because the hacker is making some fine adjustments to the system. LOL People with PC's that think their machines are working fine are in ignorant bliss using a machine that allows them to continue to do what they want to do, while at the same time under the controll of the hacker who is already using their machine for whatever they want.

I went down the bleeding path of always spending just a little bit more to buy better hardware or protection software for my PC and none of it helped. In fact I bet the hackers just had a joy breaking in again. Heck I even tried rnning proxies, bought an alphashield.com router and still was hacked! I had a choice of turning a blind eye and letting the hackers have their ay with my PC or always spending more to try to keep them out. With a highly flawed OS, thats a losing battle.

Then one day I saw a mac mini for like $650 bucks and it wasnt much more then what I was going to pay for another hard drive or better router. I seriously lauged at the salesmen in the store when I bought it because I didnt think it would work and even the salemen who ran PC's didnt think so either. I was temped to actually buy a router that was over $1000 to protect my system. You see the hackers were even putting in code on a drive so that even if you formatted the drive the backdoor would still be there. Ghostsurf helped remove some of those, but basically a completely new hard drive was required to get a safe hacker free drive. I've got 6 new drives just collecting dust now that have been hacked. Thousands flushed down the drain, not to mention my time which is more important. Heck even tried getting the RCMP and FBI involved but they didnt care about my computer getting hacked. They did let me know there was little I could do as MS is flawed. Oh and forget about putting your old comprimized data back on there as it would just set a countdown timer for the hackers to start getting back in again.

Out of frustration I bought that cheapest macmini and set it up. I seriously didnt think it would handle my needs, but why not give it a try? I plugged it in and was blown away at how elegent and easy to use it was. I even moved over all my hacked work and laughed cause I figured it would be toast in a few days. A month went by and my system was stable...a year and a half later and its still running strong. I'm actually using a cheaper computer then what I owned for a PC and its been a faster more reliable system. My savings now are incredible and I have more money to actually invest in things I want for my computer or heck other things in life. Heck my operating system I use now with OS X is light years ahead of the PC. More importantly I gained stability, ease of use, peace of mind and saved money when using a mac. When people say that PC's are cheaper then MACs they are not looking at the whole equation.

I'm glad to see that a technician running servers with MS are able to keep their PC's running for months on end. Most people dont want to be bothered spending 4 years getting educated as a IT tech or worse cant afford to have an IT professional maintain their PC's. As a home user they are left at the mercy of the hackers. Oh and your servers that are still running are likely not running different retail software from day to day or surfing the web. List all the products your running to stay connected and add your wage to the total. Most users like to surf and try out new and exciting things. They just run some bare bones tasks and its likely using Apache webserver software, because the MS stuff is garbage. Give you a clue?

Macs with Unix are sweet indeed. Macs just work right from the box. I used to use Frontpage for web development, I switched to Nvu. It was free. LOL Cheap, reliable, user friendly and a whole lot better computer for the money then any PC. The out of the box software runs office files fine. I loaded in OpenOffice to run my Access files. The PC handled graphics detail like junk compared to the mc. If your a home user looking to get away from the hacks and patches, or a small business that doesnt want as much downtime, the mac has been a whole lot better solution.

Heck I have time to write a comment on here. Most PC users are busy scanning their system or its spamming someone else cause its already infected. LOL

Win-cement...LOL how true. The truth may hurt but its true. Your looking at someone who used to defend the PC. I dont anymore. I wised up and bought an actual computer. I saw the username wincement and thought I'm wiser meat now, cause I'm a lot harder to get hacked and hence wise "meat". The PC is something that just sucks power, reboots, lets hackers in to erase or infect your data. LOL I'm tired of those games.

I run a real computer now a mac. I spent a tiny bit of time learning how to use the mac. It was easy and in no time I was away from Microsoft products altogether. Anyone with a PC I challenge them to buy a mac, give it a try. Move your data over, learn to use the machine and see how well it works. You will be amazed.

I dont even run boot camp or parallels. I dont need anything from the PC anymore. Every app I needed for the PC I found something better and more stable from the mac. Still its nice to know I could put Bloatsoft of my mac if I wanted to. Thats a nightmare. I dont even want to go there. Its not hard for a mac to run PC software, I'm enjoying my life now away from Microsoft.

Score: 0

By wat0114

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 9:00 PM

It's kind of amusing that you would reply to your own post but, oh well.

The time it takes to scan for updates on Patch Tuesday or thereabouts: ~15 min/month, including installation.

Time spent removing spyware: None, because spyware never infects my machine.

Viruses don't infect my machine.

Value of yearly protection software: Cdn ~$50.00/yr.

Boot time: ~30 sec on XP Pro with all necessary patches, antivirus, pc firewall, HIPS and advert blocker installed and launching real-time protection.

Vista: No plans on using Vista for at least a couple years.

MS Office 2003 Pro: Cdn $32.95, tax + shipping included. Yes, this is a full version. Okay, it was a sweet deal through my employer :)

Router: D-Link DI-624. Never once "hopelessly hacked". Why were you getting hacked? Who knows. You had to be doing something wrong to allow yourself to get hacked continuously. It just does not happen if proper measures are taken to secure your pc.

Anyways, it seems your Mac has brought you eternal happiness. I am happy for you.

Score: 0

By wincement

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 7:36 PM

Is that a play on my name? Because it's wincemeNt.

Everyone always says wincemeat for some reason...

It's making fun of Windows.

Windows CE
Windows ME
Windows NT

...were combined to form WinCEMENT.

(I apologize if your name has nothing to do with mine) =p

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:13 AM

You just been dying to explain that one again, haven't you. :p

Score: 0

By wincement

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 10:45 PM

With all the misspellings....

Guilty as charged.

Score: 0

By Galway

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 6:39 PM

"The system is fast and stable. In fact I could leave it on and connected to the web for months without having to reboot."

We have servers running MS and they have not been turned off for allot longer then a few months. I know some generic networked win98 workstations we have running stock and scanning software that hasnt been rebooted for ages without a reboot.

Score: 0

By cognitdiss

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 11:14 PM

"hasnt been rebooted for ages without a reboot."

that's just brilliant.

Score: 0

By DataOrbiter11

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 6:23 PM

LOL, U guys are uneducated. Based on what Symantec has stated, I believe we'll see all Vista computers be taken out of commission as soon as it is being mass distrobuted. A cracker can hack Windows and hold on to their crack, never reporting it, their back door.

Symantec and other security customers who reply on "Windows" products for their customer base will no longer be able to show-off their technical skills. THEY HAVE TO EITHER KEEP HUSH HUSH LIKE A CRACKER OR REPORT IT TO M$. So, they are now working for M$ for no pay check!

It's like the old phrase "Nobody can hack the Gibson main frame".

If crackers already have Vista back doors and hacks, then M$ does not know about it, which means the system is not secured. AFTER an attack your computer will shut down correct? So if 1 single cracker sent out an attack on the kernel then every Vista user will be shut down. I ask you how they will come back online if the threat is bootable or reacuring? How will they get patched?

The new Linux releases, as was stated in other articles, will be the way the people go after the 6pm news runs the story of all vista users rendered useless and M$ sending out repair CD's.

Just my humble opinion,
DataOrbiter11

Score: 0

By Galway

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 6:30 PM

"Just my humble opinion,"

Thank god.

Score: 0

By wincement

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 6:01 PM

Of course they're going to say it's insecure. The very future of their business depends on it. Getting a little nervous, eh?

Now the fun part begins. I can't wait to watch them squirm.

Score: 0

By Paul Skinner

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 5:52 PM

Yes, I was right. They are clamouring about bolting their crap onto the Kernal.

And they can **** off while they're at it, too.

Score: 0

By Galway

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 5:52 PM

This is total crap.

MS should not be held to ransom for locking away the kernel. And it should be microsofts right to be able to patch and fix any exploits as and when they surface via the best means available, regular automatic/assisted updates.

All these other antivirus companys should concentrate on Viral protection and not in markets they branched out into to gain additional features to woe customers.

It is microsofts right to be able to have a locked down kernel to assist in the integral security of windows and the needs to modify/patch it without the worry of stepping on the toes of other third party code.

Why dont they adapt there idea's to help make sure the PatchGuard system is intact and functional and monitor attempts to access, bypass and turn it off than to cry about kernal access? They are in the market to sell software, and this arguement is more like an attempt to keep themselves in business than to make sure the users are better off with the OS more secure.

Symantec and McAfee are right, Sophos and Kaspersky are wrong huh ?

Go figure.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:10 AM

gain additional features to woe customers

I believe that's the most insightful spelling error on BN to date.

Score: 0

By keithD

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 8:06 PM

I totally agree. For years M$ relied on companies like Symantec and McAfee for security before getting into it themselves. And why did they get into it? Because Symantec and McAfee failed so utterly. M# and M$ users owe Symantec and McAfee absolutely nothing but a wave goodbye.

The sooner M$ can put viruses like Symantec and McAfee out of business the better. With their Mickey Mouse "protection" my XP was broken into constantly. After a fresh re-install of the OS I went with Windows OneCare and have had the machine on and connected for 9 months without an incident. Wish I could also say that for my Linux web server, it gets hacked into about twice a year.

Score: 0

By D_C

edited Oct 17, 2006 - 7:42 PM

Huh? These companies wouldn't be branching out if M$ would get off their butts and fix their OS in the first place. Also, look how long it takes MS to currently patch their flaws.

I too am making the switch to Apple. This is coming from someone that has done desktop support for over 7 years. Over the past 2 months, I have dealt with 3 viruses and countless spy ware issues on my home PC. And yes, my PC is all up to date and I use anti-virus software, spy ware software and a firewall. I'm sick of constantly maintaining my system and running scans. Between my spy ware scans, and anti-virus scans, I think my PC gets scanned twice a day. Some days I don't even use my PC and I still get crap loading on it. So I'm done with MS, hello Apple.

Score: 0

By glock__17

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 8:36 PM

“3 viruses and countless spy ware issues on my home PC.”

-All the firewall and virus protection in the world isn’t going to help if you click on every link that pops up in a browser. For someone who has “done desktop support for over 7 years”…this level of infection is ridiculous.

Score: 0

By D_C

posted Oct 17, 2006 - 9:01 PM

I don't click on every link that pops up in a browser. I smarter than that, duh... This is just an example of what I’ve been going through on a daily basis with my PC. I’ve tried 3 different anti-virus programs and none of them seem to defend better than the others. Last time I rebuilt my PC, I loaded winblows, then anti-virus, then downloaded all the MS patches. I then installed spybot S&D and ran a scan. It found malware, not just tracking cookies. And the only sites I visited were MS sites. That is when I started looking into getting a Mac.

Score: 0

By ConceptJunkie

posted Oct 18, 2006 - 9:10 AM

Sounds like you're installing Windows on a machine connected to the internet without the protection of a router, so your machine will be infected before you can get the AV software installed.

I've installed Windows 2000 and XP dozens of times over the past several years and have never gotten a virus until I was doing it in Parallels on a corporate network a couple months ago (i.e., not behind my own firewall at home). I mistake