RSSThe Truth About Windows Genuine Advantage
By David Worthington and Nate Mook | Published May 13, 2005, 1:24 PM
Windows Genuine Advantage will soon require all Windows users to verify their license before downloading updates, but the program has sparked concern and confusion from customers. BetaNews sat down with David Lazar, Director of Genuine Windows at Microsoft, to clear up misconceptions and sort fact from fiction.
BetaNews: Let's start with some basic background information on Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) for our readers such as why it was developed, its purpose, etc.
David Lazar: We recognize our position as trend setters in the industry. Piracy is a big industry problem. The IDC's annual piracy study estimates 29 billion dollars of worldwide losses due to piracy. Something like 1 in 3 users worldwide is using some pirated software or counterfeit software. So, it is a large industry problem.
In the olden days we did copy protection. I think it is very clear that customers did not want copy protection and so we think that the approach that we have with activation and Genuine Windows validation is quite appropriate.
Obviously we can try to reduce the incidents of counterfeit software, but the real challenge for Microsoft having tried a bunch of what we call sticks in the past, now we want to improve the experience of customers to get them more excited about genuine Windows. It's really a balance between having some form of enforcement, but really focusing on making a more interesting, more exciting and more desirable Windows experience for those customers using genuine Windows.
We started the program last September in the US and we decided to make it opt in, which means that customers could choose whether or not to participate. And we said that at some point in the future it may be required and in fact in January we announced that in mid-2005 it would become required. So we have given people a lot of time to get used to the program.
What we have seen in terms of participation has amazed us, and that is that our opt-in rate has been above 56% - at times as high 60%. And for certain downloads, specifically the Windows AntiSpyware, we have seen opt-in rates as high as 70%, which tells us that customers are really interested in knowing if they have genuine software and to see if they will get special benefits from having this genuine software relationship with Microsoft.
BetaNews: Why is WGA needed, is Windows Product Activation not successful?
David Lazar: That's a great question Dave. So there are a couple of reasons that WGA is helpful. Number 1 is kind of the reminder thing. Sometimes you take things for granted and forget the value of the good things that you have in your life, so Microsoft comes back with a reminder to check and see if you are running genuine software. And then you receive benefits to thank you for continuing to run genuine Windows. You activate once and you are done with it, so this is kind of a lifecycle reminder.
The next thing is that there are holes in activation. For example, in Russia, they have figured out how to hack Windows to get around activation - so end users could end up with a copy of Windows that does not have to activate. They would never have the opportunity to know about genuine Windows and take advantage of the benefits of genuine Windows.
BN: System files were modified to get around WPA?
Lazar: System files were modified. There is also a large counterfeit business that is built on the volume license key where someone gets a hold of a corporate volume license key and passes that around.
BN: Right now the project is more aggressively implemented internationally and is still opt-in in the US - why is that?
Lazar: Actually, it doesn't have to do with the US as much as the fact that English is a worldwide language in many ways. We see the usage of English all around the world. When we implement something in English, since we are basically a Web-based program, the impact is like 70% to 75% of users worldwide. And we have to be careful when we do something in English that we are ready for a worldwide roll out.
The current program that we just rolled out this week, the pilot of the Genuine Windows offer, is specifically limited to the US. You do have to do a dropdown and say that I am located in the US in order to take advantage of the program. In general if we put something up on Microsoft Update or on the Download Center, then that's going to hit a majority of customers worldwide.
BN: Is the main problem piracy committed by OEMs, street vendors or end users?
Lazar: We think more about counterfeit because we made a very conscious decision several years back to not really focus on end user behavior, but to think about this more as a systemic problem in our distribution channels and our distribution policies. So we really focus more on counterfeit than on the broader term "piracy."
That said there are some very sophisticated channels for the distribution of counterfeit product. At the end of the day you know Windows is a somewhat valuable commodity and the crooks out there in the world realize that. If they can come up with a counterfeit or a really good counterfeit it is like printing up $100 bills for their business.
In some cases in more developed markets like Europe and the US, you see very sophisticated counterfeits where you need a magnifying glass to tell the difference. Customers will see on the Internet a spam that sells Windows for what looks like a good price, like $89, and it's a manufacturer's close out. Well that is definitely a counterfeit version because according to our license you cannot buy a so-called OEM version of Windows without buying the computer itself from the OEM. So, that right there should be a red flag.
BN: Or you can just buy a power cable.
Lazar: That is correct. If you have to buy something from the manufacturer then it could be a power cable or a mouse. That is in the case of system builders.
In some less sophisticated markets or in some places in the US, you can find disks with handwritten product keys or some very unsophisticated stickers that look like they were homemade that have product keys on them - those are obvious fakes. They might be available in some seedy spot where the customer really doesn't have a whole lot of expectation that they are getting the real thing.
But as I said, there are some very sophisticated counterfeits out there. We have, as part of our education campaign, a great Web site called "How to Tell." It has pictures of what the counterfeits look like and it explains the hologram. There are actually counterfeiters out there that are creating holograms that look like our hologram CDs. And the holograms that we do are actual silk screens in the media – they are not stickers – and so far the counterfeiters have done all stickers. If you see a hologram with a sticker you know that it is a fake.
BN: How have customers responded to the program, has it been successful?
Ok, after half an hour of reading all these posts...I still got the same question.
some say its a crap thing about this article... some say it aint.
I totally understand MS point of view, however there seems to be something lacking...
Recently MS gave to Brazilian GOV a sort of version of windows (cant really remember what exactly was it or where did i read).
Anyways, Brazil is one country where you cant earn alot, along with other countries. Now you try to explain to me how do u expect people who can afford a normal pc, but cant afford a windows copy for that price.... will they swap OS?
YES thats an alternative, however you also have to look at this point:
NOT EVERYONE has the knowlegde of using linux/freebsd...
and another option would be mac, but u need to buy a compatible pc...
people keep saying to swap to linux etc, however you also need to look at the way that not ALL PEOPLE HAVE THE KNOWLEGDE for LINUX.
I am quite happy with my xp company copy sp1, and dont have any plans to upgrade to sp2 for the time being.
already have a few linux distributions, but didnt install any coz my knowlegde aint that good. rather learn abit first. I aint a ms hater or a linux lover... im just a normal guy working for an online company with the normal pc knowlegde. nothing is for free... everything has a price. wouldnt be a better idea to drop down a bit the prices (at least in those countries where the economy and living cost aint that high?)
in that way, piracy would drop down (at least for a bit...)
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|Microsoft should be ashamed of themselves, they have done so much for the computer world, so why cant they either lower their price or make Windows open source hehe
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|Hi:
I'm a genuine windows customer; I purchased a retail genuine Win XP Pro for my computer.
When MS came out with the GWVT in late October, I hurried over to take advantage of the offer of the Photo Story 3 freebie! Of course, it blew up my computer and I lost a couple of days of work.
Naturally, I'm such a loser, I tried again a couple of months ago. The GWVT blew up my computer big time and I lost 3 weeks of time on my computer. MS support interogated me and validated my copy of windows WAS valid, and I purchased it etc. but it STILL blew me up.
Now, in the end, I'm not sure if my computer can do automatic updates anymore. I don't feel very safe, even though I'm assured I'm a 'valid' windows user. I don't think my computer thinks it's valid; I feel invalidate. I feel less secure.
It's been a genuine bummer. MS has assured itself that I'm not a pirate. but I'm still out in the cold.
this is a true story.
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|What should I say, I just read the comments here and the more rabid Linuxists made me giggle.
Uptime of three years, good point there with the 2.2 kernel and security vulnerabilities :D Better use BSD anyway…
Really now, I’ve been using Linux on and off since what… Debian 2.1 and Mandrake 6 — those Linux 2.0.36 days. And I’ve been a DOS (5.0 and above), Windows user, even a BeOS and QNX one, just to have some variety in my life. It boils down to that I still like Windows more than the rest, and KDE is the single only thing that doesn’t get to me too much that I consider it a threat to the comfort that Windows gives.
Now as for my Windows… I own a very legit copy of Windows XP, I went through activation, and damned if I won’t be bitter if I end up having to buy (for like 30 000 HUF plus 25% tax) a new copy if it chokes on a hardware change; I’ll probably go and find a Corporate Edition somewhere and use my key on it. This whole thing about Genuine Windows bugs me very much; I belong to that OTHER HALF (56% is a very poor rate in my opinion) of people who just DON’T want to go through this dubious little thing, legit Windows or not.
I also agree that Mr. Lazar often said some quite hollow things in this interview and wasn’t too specific…
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|The WGA Program relies on finding either an Activated Windows XP Home or Pro Install, *or* finding a 640 Product ID Code from a Windows XP Professional Volume License Key.
And there are keygens that do produce valid 640 Windows XP Pro VLK Keys.
Microsoft, your program is flawed. It will catch out the idiots, but to the hardcore, it doesn't even register on the RADAR.
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|I agree with you on this. I also think that this program was implemented to help the customers find out that they have pirated copies and most of the people aren't using keygens (unless they knew or know that they have a pirated copy of xp).
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|Will be only a matter of time, to hackers find a way to crack it again, and again, and again...
Face it! Piracy, counterfeit, whatever u wanna call it, will NEVER end, unfortunately!
And, security updates, coming out just only for Genuine Windows, even in their properly rights, would be a low-punch act, facing that Windows OS is not totally secure, and security, today, is everything for everyone...
So, a common user, have a pirate copy of Windows XP installed on PC. Ok.
Then, MS activate the WGA, and this user cannot do any security updates, anymore.
Like I said, MS is not 100% secure, and hackers discovers a extreme critical breach on the system, that a hacker can steal user accounts, passwords, files, take control of the system, etc etc...
Then, the user seems to be damned, and would he pay that much for a Genuine Windows ? I think he would learn how to work in Linux, and change of OS...
The sorcery will turn against the sorcerer...
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|I guess if you are not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.
Still, Windows XP Home should be like that Apple deal - 5 PC license in one cheap bundle.
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|i mean, the numbers are obviously speculative. with WPA and then broad analasys of windows update server responses, surveys, scans, etc etc, windows XP has the best chance for a close guess at how many legit vs pirated copies are out there, but there's no way to be sure....
that said, i remember hearing one time that in fact, the all time record high instances of non-licensed copies distributed of a single operating system was (drum roll) Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. now i have no actual legitimate base for this, and i don't think anyone else really has a good stat base for other claims of piracy... but what i do know is that in the late 90's when MS had their big time licensing push to audit their world of enterprise customers, it was right around the big transition away from windows 3.11, the same way we are in the big push away from win98 right now. my point is that back then, without much knowledge of licensing, your computer tech/admins never though one thing about copying the all of 5 floppies windows came on,a nd installing that one legit set onto hundreads of machines. this is also the same time frame as word perfect for windows, the defacto word processor app at the time, lotus 123 spreadsheet, etc.
so yeah, if anyone can bring this to light i'm sure many people would be curious to know what's out there. it almost seems like everyone has forgotten about those days when you shook in fear that MS might send an auditer to your company, and there was no system in place to validate your licenses other than paper (ie, no license tracking services) and have forgotten when software piracy was focused mainly on games, and what the whole attitude towards distributing software via floppy disk was like.
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|I don't have a problem with MS wanting to protect their intellectual property rights. It ~is~ a right, you know.
It's a wonder that ppl will bash MS for legitimately wanting to safeguard the fruits of their labor and knowing full well that those same bashers would jealously protect their own property from theft.
Some will say that MS goes overboard in safeguarding their property. Face it, piracy and the users of pirated products goes on all around every one of us. Is it self-serving for MS to say so? Maybe. But I suspect anyone would do the same thing if it were your own valuable commercial product that someone was re-packaging for their own profit.
It's robbery if it happens to you, so what is it if it happens to MS? My own understanding of the article is that MS concedes that a lot of end-users are using counterfeit copies of it's OS. Is MS generally filing lawsuits against end-users? No. Might they at some point? Maybe, but you definitely would [without delay] if it were your commercial product being ripped off. Are they going after the counterfeiters? Absolutely!
MS concedes that piracy won't end and that they have no illusions to the contrary. Why would they allow security updates to go out to even pirated product? Security of even the pirated product is valuable to everyone, not the least of which MS who are contributors (whether anyone likes it or not) to the tech industry as a whole. Whether you like MS or not: "The enemy (virus creators) of my enemy (MS) is my friend."
Frankly, I do like MS products. (I know: SUCH heresy!) I also like the open source community, linux, apple and a lot of other contributors to tech. They all have a very important seat at the table and contribute to different ~and~ like categories. Both competitively and in partnership.
We all like "free", there's no doubt. Is it a crime against humanity to make whatever living you can (rich OR meager) out of your efforts? MS has a LOT of free stuff that you can get even without WGA if you'll just go get it.
Possibly a larger number of items than the items they charge for. Or possibly more accurately, a LOT of bonus content, material, programs and etc for those who purchase their products. I like that. Other software companies probably only wish they could be as generous with their customers. (Oops! There I've gone and invited curses for using the "G" word :)
You might be surprised after reading the above that I am against any KGB-like, police-state 'turning-in-your-neighbor' tactics in enforcing copy-rights or intellectual property rights. I'm okay with MS legitimizing end-user's pirated product in return for informing on the seller of the pirated product. But I think that's about as far as MS should go in those regards (and I hope if MS is reading this that they agree.)
I'm a tech and I go out of my way to make sure that the products I pass on with the systems I sell are legitimate. However, I see other OEMs and builders who aren't as contientious. I don't think they are being malicious, for the most part. But here is where much of the problem of counterfeiting lies. The carelessness of system builders and OEMs, and I'll admit that sometimes it's greed, is the fertile market for counterfeiters.
If I believed that the WGA was a method of 'stealing' my information or that MS routinely gathers the 'marketing information' of it's customers for general dissemination I would be a pre-dominately linux user. I'm not blind... I've always carefully watched for spam and other indications that any merchant that I do biz with might have created. I'm from 'back-in-the-day' when we had MS-DOS and PC-DOS (is anyone still out there who knows the difference? It wasn't really that long ago) and I rarely have a problem with most merchants. I admit you do have to do your homework, but it's worth it.
Personally, I give MS 5-stars out of 5 in the privacy category (if not quite that in others. BTW, it's been since Win95 and only a couple times in 98 that I've personally had a BSOD or had to reinstall... I didn't even have a problem with XP SP2. No offense, but it's really a matter of how you take care of your system isn't it? Kudos to 'eunichman'.)
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Back to the subject... someone said that MS "b****'s and moan's". I KNOW you would if it were Your livelihood that was at stake. Maybe it ~doesn't~ amount to billions or maybe it does; either way if it were happening to you in the same measure you'd be bankrupt for the next 100 lives (if there were such a thing; but that's a different topic ;)
That's where I stand... I guess I've sat mute reading such c**p over the years that I finally had to jump in and give my half-cent.
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|Very, very well said! :)
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|Nicely done ole' chap!
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|i like most of your points, especially concerning what uncalculated bennefit piracy has had on the improvement of windows... but i have to say that it seems MS has turned a corner in that avenue in the last couple years, actually addressing many security concerns silently before proof-of-concept software is realeased to the world. I would speculate that maybe this is why they choose to tackle piracy in this rigid fassion.
that being said... the article claims outright that windows update will be available regardless of your WGA status, but that individual MS security updates and the like will not... my question is if we will begin to see these formerly free updates traded on P2P networks in the aftermath of this new validation scheme. that would definitely be a s*** in piracy tactics, and defeat the purpose if MS's intention was to restict access to such files. i would like to think MS would have a validation mechanism in place witht he installer itself anyhow.
ig uess my last comment on your points and the article is that certain hot fixes are already restricted if you're not a technet/enterprise customer anyhow, not even available through the normal windows download section to the run-of-the-mill already validated customers. in other words, this implimentation is more or less already in place, and most people aren't aware of it, nor do they care.
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|Very well put, Oldtimer. I fully agree with your view. I too have had no problems (so to speak) with my XP SP2 other than my own thoughtless doings. Is that proper context. Anyways, WELL SAID AND BULLY
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|If Microsoft cares so much for legitimate users, why have they now taken 3 weeks with only a " we're working on it" email, as to why my 32bit OEM copy will not upgrade tro Xp64 as part of their Technology Advancement programme.
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|Umm, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
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|It is not an upgrade, but a different program. Different files designed to do different things on a machine designed to utilize it.
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|So someone with a legitimate copy of windows downloads the updates and passes them on the 'net to other people... So everyone has access. lol
I guess it is just another road block with a detour.
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|hackers will ALWAYS find a way around anything they do, its just a stall for time thats it.
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|You're right except for those downloads which contain only a websetup wizard of a few hundred kbs or that Windows XP SP-2 Express download. They'll still have to go on line to get the rest of the files. AND Then Microsoft can block their pirated serial numbers.
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|I keep wondering if there will be a possibility to 'crack' it...
users still need to go online to download full updates..
unless u will get pirate copies with sp2 and recent updates, in which i dont doubt as well..
(take a look in asia market) u get basically everything...
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|Lazar makes no sense in this comment of his. How does this work..
"In the second half of 2005, visitors to the Microsoft Download Center and Windows Update will be required to participate in WGA in order to access content. It is important to note however, that all users, with or without WGA validation, can receive security updates through the Windows XP Automatic Updates feature or on the Microsoft Download Center. "
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|That's right - the statement seems to contradict itself.
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|Right now you can get some old a** games, that you have to pay for, Photo Story 3 (wow, the excitement), OneNote (for six months) and a couple of other lame offers so memorable that I almost instantly forgot them. Oh, and the fuzzy, warm feeling of knowing that Microsoft knows that you are running a legal copy of their OS.
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|I read the whole article and really I have only one thing to say due to the fact that the article really doesn't "say" anything.
It was an interesting read yes, but not a whole lot of information was obtained. Though, I'm not sure how much more info "could" be obtained on the subject... either way, thank you BN for doing the interview.
Now, the one thing I have to sasy is that a CPU is a processor inside the case. The Product Key sticker is on the side of the case/tower/computer/computer enclosure... not the CPU. That just really gets to me.
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|Microsoft need to stop the pirated using any method. Including :
- Stopping the windows and other applications if it is pirated version (detect it by including a checker on update, or windows media player, or MSN and others)
- Push the government to take actions regarding pirated.
Now in many countries the pirated level stil high. it can be more than 90% pirated.
In Indonesia, look at Mangga Dua Mall (Jakarta) and High tech mall (Surabaya), you can buy any software at just $1.5 a CD and about $5/ DVD which can contain many software inside.
and the BSA is not so much taking any actions regarding this. some people say that maybe they playing something with this. but I dont know it is true or not. but Microsoft and others need to check it.
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|Microsoft seems to be concentrating its efforts on US users of its OS. The rest of the world pirates away, esp, China, But what does Gates And our government do?
They tell us how good it is for the US economy that China is has become a member of the worldwide economy. They just do not have to play by the rules of the US.
But, Microsoft has some control over the US market, so it talks up piracy and the problem it is in the US.
The problem of piracy in the US is miniscule compared to China and other "underdeveloped nations." However, MS and the US govt look away at their "indescretions."
The US pays while other nations suck up our resources.
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|And there is plenty of apple warez.
BTW Tigger was on the internet weeks before offical release. Including a very nice beta version.
So no Microsoft is not the only Pirated OS.
Well I like WGA myself. Most people I have seen who have a problem with it is because they are using illegal copy of Windows. Of course not all but most. And others I see who have a problem with it just need to get over themselves and wake up and relizse it is 2005, not 1986. ;)
Get with the program and stop being a cry baby.
Oh and Linux sucks!!!
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|I see wga as yet another step of many in ms trying to take over the way you compute as well as an invasion of personal privacy.
example:
anonymous dude goes and pays cash for all components to build a pc as well as the os.
anonymous user builds the pc legally and installs the pc legally and takes steps to protect his being anonymous for he hears a LOT of instances if identity theft out there
along comes ms asking all kindsa questions who he is where he lives etc (if he had to reinstall his xp several times due to whatever reasons he has to supply this information to ms to get a key to activate windows after x reinstalls).
all of a sudden he starts getting spam in his snail mail box etc. all he wanted was to keep from getting his identity stolen, taken extraordinary steps to ensure this wouldnt happen and he end up on all ms's mailing lists because they wanted his identity.
No thanks
I agree the above is extreme in example but I dont like any contact with developers of what I use unless it's for technical assistance
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|You are wrong. MS doesn't ask you anything other than why are you reinstalling your OS and that is it. Now if he bought his computer from Dell, IBM, Compaq, HP, or a kin to that then they would ask for more information about it. IMO, everyone that has any idea about computers should build their own anyway.
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|If you don't have contact with developers and product designers, how can you demand improvement in the products you buy and expect them to hear you? Sounds very hypocritical to me!
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|Yes, and I've just stolen your identity by reading your post. Go check your bank account - you have nothing left!
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|I'm surprised the interviewer didn't mention China. The large majority of pirated software is presently being sold and distributed in and through China. But because the Bush administration relies on Chinese money to prop up the exploding annual US debt, the US government and the WTO does absolutely nothing.
Either Microsoft is happy to let the situation continue so that eventually the majority of Chinese are using Microsoft products, or the Bush administration is selling our best assets for nothing — nothing now and nothing in the future. Think about it the next time you buy that t-s*** at Wal-Mart.
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|that's a really good point, seeing as there all this cyber-security news pointing the finger at russia and asia for making the net such a "dangerous" place.
it really does seem like alot of this is a smoke screen, not solving a problem but giving the impression to the masses that is does.
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|We purchased the full retail copy of Windows XP Professional at the end of 2001! Then BILL GATES got to decide how often the customer could activate and continue to use his $320.00 CD rom. That legal Microsoft product is now just a souvenir...
I prefer to use a custom made (bootable) Windows XP/SP-2 VLK version instead. We don't need flopy disks any more. There is no activation BS to worry about. Windows Genuine Advantage is just fine too.
Does anybody know why some morons post their bootleg product keys on line? Keep it to yourselves. Stupid software pirates are shooting themselves in the foot; but it's their problem.
Thousands of people purchased licensed copies of Windows XP. They prefer to use the VLK "Corporate Edition" because it's hassle free. We control our computers and not Bill Gates...
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|Okay I don't mind all this stuff that much. However the first time I went through the system it said all is well and that my software is all it is made out to be. The second time I went to do an update, oops, my Windows 2000 was not the true thing. Maybe the 'bugs' have not all been worked out yet, like we are up to Word version 11,000 by now?
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|yeah, i prefer to have legit software, but i have seen exactly what you are talking about. saw a guy at a LAN party show up right after going to Frye's and picking up a new video card, rushed over to get it in his machinea nd start gaming, but low and behold it invalidated his copy of Windows XP (and it shouldn't have done that, according to the WPA documentationa bout what hardware changes require re-validation).
everyone who was there had a legit copy of windows that they had obtained through retail, but none of them install it because of those types of problems. their legit license is merely a safety net to say they have the right to install windows on their machine. is this wrong? according to the EULA it is. but ultimately MS never gives any real gaurantee on how their software will perform, because that's the nature of proprietary software running on a defacto standard, and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it, except to stop investing money in the defacto standard proprietary software.... if you get my point (ie, there really is nothing we can do).
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|I am sick and tired of Microsoft shoving crap like this down our troth and calling it a "benefit." When I paid to get my system it came with Windows and the vendor was not offering any other operating systems (because Microsoft would rip them a new one if they did so) so I trusted my number one vendor to have a genuine product on my system. If there is a flaw in any of this I should not be affected at all. Microsoft wants to save money by stopping the illegal copies of Windows getting the updates. They are doing this by inconveniencing me. I don't care if they say there are benefits. We all know there are no benefits at all. This is just a scam. I'm just going to switch to an alternative operating system. Most of the alternative operating systems are either as good as Windows or better.
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|Windows product activation was what convinced me to ditch Windows when XP was released. There is NO way I am being treated like a criminal by a company that I am paying for a product. There is no way that I should be expected to 'activate' a product, or that Microsoft should be allowed to collect any informationa about how I use that product. Now that I have switched to Linux, I will never return return to Windows. There are features that I miss from Windows, but in general, I have found Linux to be a less obtrusive, more customisable platform, and with significantly better development tools.
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|And you must tell the truth and stop telling fibs. You still use MS and you are lost when it comes to Linux and you have a pirated copy of XP that is the only reason you are crying about it.
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|Sometimes you can't help but stare in awe at the stupidity that some people spew.
I would like to start out by saying that I am a software engineer (and no I don't work for Microsoft). I run Linux as my primary operating system and like it a lot. A good portion of my development work is for Windows, so I often need to operate in Windows. I don't hate Windows. It's a great operating system that's perfect for the majority of computer users. I would never recommend that Windows users switch to Linux unless they are familiar with the environment.
I run Linux because I wanted a change from Windows. For me, there was nothing new or exciting anymore because I knew how to do just about anything. Linux was (and still is) a challenge. When something breaks, the solution is usually not obvious. I've spent hours digging through esoteric documenation and forums searching for fixes to problems I had. The funny part is that the same problem either wouldn't happen in Windows or Windows would facilitate me in fixing the problem.
Microsoft is not evil. They're a business. And businesses exist to make money -- end of story. Linux is free, but there is a trade-off between cost and ease-of-use. If you're comfortable with that then fine. But don't complain when it doesn't work. There are many open-source counterparts to commercial products (like OpenOffice) but ultimately the free product doesn't completely measure up to the commercial one.
There are many misconceptions about Microsoft's anti-piracy technologies. For one thing, WPA does NOT collect information about the customer. I suggest you read up on that before you say anything.
Lastly, your Windows Product Key is your proof-of-purchase. If you argue that it's inconvenient to take thirty seconds to type your Product Key so that Microsoft knows you bought Windows, then you must be doing something illegal.
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|I think your candidness is quite suprising for any computer or software forum. You have "told it how it is"
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|Having self taught myself many aspects of computers and computer repair I feel allk the more comfortable around computers. if something goes wrong I can usuallyt fix it myself, software wise or hardware wise. I love linux because when I fix a problem software wise I can fix it in the source code and recompile it and all is fine.
What does that have to do with anything? not much other than more people should learn to get their hands dirty working on the problems themselves. it breeds computer knowledge and knowledge is power
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|What you said is correct... more people *should* get their hands dirty once in a while and learn how to do things for themsevles instead of relying on others.
Unfortunately that's an idealistic belief that will never happen in our world, so you might as well GET OVER IT and realize that Microsoft caters their software to Corporate America and the Consumer Masses... not to the specific ideas of a few elite techs. If you don't like that, there ARE other options, so use them... that's fine... but you claim you and others cry about having things force-fed on us, and yet you demand the stop their ways... well welcome to Hypocrisy 101, because you're force-feeding your values on the masses.
It's simple people--- use what you like, don't use what you don't like, and shut up with the whining!
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|well, that's a well and good point when you're talking about seemingly minor inconveniences.... yeah, quit whining when all the "force fed" changes are merely inconveniences....
but truth be told, the most recent run of updates from MS for winXP have been so radically different that it forces big time enterprise customers to either not patch or update their systems in order to maintain mission critical services, or else completely redesign their infrastructure.
on one side, you have a point... but on another side, you're telling people to stop whining about things that ammount to breech of contract, or at least bate-and-switch.
yes, these updates needed to be made, but the implimentation by MS could have been much more efficient if Redmond were more open to all of its enterprise customers, rather than just the top few.
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|I suppose that's a matter of how a given business operates. I suppose I can count my blessings that I've worked in environments that write good code that don't depend on existing flaws in the OS to operate... rely on well-supported software from 3rd party vendors... and as such are not as heavily hit by the updates. :)
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|I love linux it's more stable almost as user friendly, as a power user i can figure stuff out where as mom/dad might not be able to. Linux has the power and many distrobutions are free as in beer/freedom (i run ubuntu linux). Only problem is software patents :(
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|I agree with this comment. I have a legal copy of Windows XP Pro and a legal copy of MS Office 2003 Pro. I've used MS since DOS 5.0. Since I've been using XP Pro, I've found that after a couple of months, the old BSOD starts...then becomes worse and worse and worse. Finally, sick of reinstalling everything, I switched to Mandrake Linux. Sure, I had problems there, until I stopped thinking in MS. Since then, I've learned a lot about Linux, I have more software than I know what to do with and I've not had a single reinstall. I don't defrag, I don't run spyware removing software, I don't do anti-virus updates...but most of all, I don't have to look at the BSOD and watch the computer reboot itself, for no known reason, two or three times a day. I liked Open Office so well, I bought Star Office...for a fraction of what I paid for MS Office 2003...and like it better. I can create, save and work with any MS Office document and much more. Evolution does everything I ever used MS Outlook for, as to email, synch of my PDA and schedules.
Those who wish to stay with MS are welcome to do so, for whatever reason. I'll stay with Linux. If you haven't tried a recent version of Linux, you might be surprised. Not one problem with hardware recognition or anything else. Just a stable operating system.
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|something else I found after swithcing to linux...
extremely long uptimes. (one pc has been up under hard use for 3 years now withpout a reboot). something else I noticed... the more I use linux and the longer it remains up.... it stays running predictably fast... I remember running windows and the more I used it the slower it got :P I blame that as much on shoddy programming in the applications as much as the os itself..
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|That distro has got to be the biggest pile of crap Ive ever seen. God you linux geeks need to get a grip.
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|Don't you have something better to do?
Are you just mad that your Linux virus doesn't work again?
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|Ha! Right! I'm not like you fewt... I have a life, unlike you.
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|Sure you do.
You can attack my life all you want. You have no idea how much better my life is than anyone here's. ;-)
I have the dream wife, job, cars, kids, dog, and even have the white picket fence (it's not white, but what's that matter)
Go ahead, give me your best shot. You can't touch me. ;-)
I have to ask though, why are you such a mental midget towards me? What the hell did I ever do to you?
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|Fewt, considering on the other article thread about Antivirus you make claims against someone calling them a child, you make an awful lot of childish posts yourself.
Now I could be a jerk and slump down to your level by pointing out that you're arrogant, rude, obnoxious, and you tend to rant on topics that you don't provide evidence of comprehension on. You criticize us by making posts that state one opinion, only to reverse yourself later in an effort to make us look bad.
However, I'm not going to be a jerk, and I'm not going to say that. I'm just going to ask that you not behave in the manner that I am not going to accuse you of... and suggest that if you really do have all those wonderful things, please try to enjoy them a little more often than you enjoy harassing us. :)
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|Uptime.exe reports:
32 day(s), 18 hour(s), 13 minute(s), 3 second(s)
on my Windows XP Professional SP2 system. The last update was due to the installation of Windows Updates and resulted in 48 seconds of reboot time (yes, I really am a geek and time my reboots).
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|Do me a favor before you decided to blast me.
Do your homework on who hit who first. I called him a child because he is acting like a child. You are attacking me because you have nothing better to do.
Now, I've got to run to the store and get my smoker going so I can make a nice sunday dinner for my family.
Have a nice Sunday.
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|qute frankly, it is impressive when a system runs stable without reboot for a long perior of time.... but i would never use that as the measure of stability.
i have seen simple python scripts completely take down a linux box to the point that a reboot was the only possible remedy. on the other hand, i have seen services on windows 2000 that refuse to restart in order to bring a critical function back to life, requiring a reboot.
it goes back to the whole "do one thing well rather than many things mediocre" idea. the uptime debate is just silly, as you can have a mediocre sysad whose answer to life is reboot, vs a slick UNIX admin who can update core system services on his servers without a reboot for years, vs an MS admin who can have his Exchange server 100% for over a year. eventually all of them will have to install a kernel update that requires a reboot, and then they are all at < 1 day system uptime.
in my experience, service downtime is the mesure the rest of the world judges us on. they could care less how long the box has been running, but freak out when they can't get their e mail between noon and 1230.
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|You can't really claim uptime of a single system anymore no matter what OS it runs, as you HAVE to reboot even Linux for kernel patches now and then.
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|Let's hope the machine that's been up 3 years, is not connected to the Internet. It must be running a 2.2 kernel, with 100's, if not 1000's of acknowledged vunrabilities.
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|You did something very specific to me, quite a while ago. I know who you are and can testify that you are an idiot.
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|Sorry, I don't know who you really are.
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|Do I care?! No! You didn't care when you did what you did to me. Your a joke Fewt and everyone thinks it.
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|Dunno who you are or what you think I "did" to you, but if you are still holding a grudge after x number of years since I last frequented this forum then you are the one with the problem.
One more thing, have a nice day. :-)
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|LOL
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|Well, the obvious one, elegantly ignored by most media who are normally only too happy to preach the Firefox gospel, is that this crap requires IE. Or rather, it requires ActiveX, so it requires IE.
For those of us who have seen the light and locked down IE so hard we couldn't run it if we wanted to, this is a slap in the face. I didn't pay for Windows to use IE, and I'm not going to because of this. There are plenty other ways to get those files, legally and safely.
Secondly, regarding the license sticker issue. Yeah, on top and to the right... unless you have a laptop... I laughed so hard I almost fell of my chair the first time my boss tried to get in using Genuine Disadvantage. He had to undock his laptop, look under, redock, at which time the laptop refused to reconnect, and he had to reboot... when we got back from getting coffee/tea, I asked him if he could get the file now, but he had forgotten what he was trying to access.
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|You can download a very small program that will run the check and give you a # to paste into the selected location for the WGA. You should try it before you knock it.
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|Do you know if it will accept a Windows 95 or 98 key? I haven't seen the app myself but if I want to download something I'll probably throw an old 95 key at it because I shouldn't have to give up my personal key to get access to software on their website. What about corporate licenses? It'll be a cold day in hell before I would put a corporate key in anything but the Windows installer box.
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|It's not a key it asks for. The little progam will check a few files and then give you a code to enter in to the selected location on the WGA site.
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|ahh, thanks.
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|If you read what I wrote you'd notice I mention there are several ways around it. This is one of them. It doesn't validate you, it doesn't involve the WGA at all, it simply circumvents it... guess what the warez heads will use? How long do you think it'll be available?
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|I will knock whatever I wish when it causes an inconvience in my life :)
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|in other words, the program will pry into your software looking for stuff and when it finds it it says ok. I tend to be VERY wary of any application or script that pokes around my computer
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|Um no. The program that I was referring to, is used if you don't use IE.
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|Yes, and it doesn't authenticate your Windows. So, got a problem with WGA? Use another browser than IE and circumvent it. Guess what the... no, I already covered that
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|Umm, maybe you should go check it out. You are very lost.
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|oh, that's an awesome little anecdote. definitely makes the point of "to what ends?" this whole issue beggs.
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|Yes, of course I am. Maybe you'd like to explain to those of us with lower intelligence how the 7 character return code validates my 25 digit product key? Or how it in any way provides MS with the necessary information to establish that my copy is legit. Maybe *you* should try it?
Incidentally, I just tried generating a few codes on assorted machines here with different kinds of Windows, and they submit just fine mixed between systems, so there's definately no tie to Win version, product key or hardware.
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|First off, I am not the one who made it. Second, that is how MS is doing it. Third you need to get off the drugs and lose the attitude and/or grow up.
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|Yeah....I think I'm going to do just that.
Either that or I'll buy a Mac Mini.
Screw Microsoft. I used to like them back when they were "good".
Now all they do is b**** and moan.
There is no way that the Piracy money facts are right. Because if someone ever came to me and said....you have to buy Microsoft Office if you are going to use it. I would simply remove the installed copy.....and install OpenOffice.
Cheers,
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|"The IDC's annual piracy study estimates 29 billion dollars of worldwide losses due to piracy."
This is continually spewed forth and it's so logically flawed that I fail to see why they continue to quote this. People involved in piracy wouldn't automatically resort to buying said product they pirate. In fact you might see the opposite effect, in that a competitor is looked at first and Microsoft might actually have less of a marketshare if a mass movement is made to competitors like linux or Sun.
With all piracy eradicated, so you really think people just suddenly would buy the product they've been getting for free? Absolutely not. They like a bargain and they like the features, but the cost is king and will scare them away from buying products outright.
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|It's a pain in the butt the first time you have to do it, but once you do the system tags your OS and you dont have to do it again.
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|I've had to call the Inida based call center three times now out of six activations with my valid XPPro install. It's only a slight headache, furthered when I actually have to call in and get a new key. But credit to MS, even with the call-ins they have authorized my install.
I've had two motherboards, two cpus, three video cards and three different HD setups since first putting this "box" together with this XPPro key.
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|This is a question directed to all the ms haters...
If Windows sucks so much, then why is there such a GIGANTIC counterfeit business?
I mean, people have been counterfeiting Gucci and Louis Vouton for years because there was a market for a cheaper version of a quality product...
I've never seen a counterfeit Apple OS...
Just a thought...
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|actually there is a counterfeit Apple OS it's called Pear.
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|Umm, Pear PC is a MAC emulator, it lets you run a valid version of Mac OS X on non-PowerPC hardware; it is not a counterfeit version of Mac OS X.
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|I thought Pear was just an OSX emulator which ran on XP. It's not a counterfeit OS.
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|I don't think that MS sucks, but I do think the analogy of Microsoft software to fashion apparel, cars, etc. is invalid due to networking effect.
For better or worse, people are generally forced into using Windows proprietary products because other people do.
People cry, so use something else! For the most part, there aren't alternatives. It's like petitioning others if they don't like the language to speak another. MS owns the language. Don't speak doc? Sit in the corner. Don't speak xls? Sit in the corner. Don't speak ppt? Sit in the corner. Don't speak DWG? Sit in the corner. So the alternatives are sitting in the corner talking to oneself. Some choice.
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|PearPC, assuming that's what they're talking about, is a PowerPC emulator. OS X, of course, runs on PPC, but it'd also run PPC Linux, Darwin, or whatever.
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|When you say counterfeit, you probably mean a copy of the original, and not something that is made to look like a microsoft item and then sold as the original. If so, then your idea is false. There are pirated copies of apple software, including Panther MacOS....
I cannot think of any company that has not fallen victim to piracy and counterfeits. Even commerical linux software has been pirated. Just because it has counterfeits doesn't mean that the original must be superior in anyway to others.
If you try to use Rolex, fragrances, expensive clothing lines, etc. as an example, then yes, it makes sense that not all things have counterfeits. The raw materials are cheap making a good incentive to counterfeit things with a high margin of profit. If you are going to make a fake, wouldn't you rather fake a pair of $120 shoes rather than a cheapo $15 pair????
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|you just havent looked :) I have a friend who is now in prison for operating as part of a pirate group specializing in "Mac Warez" including their os.
I seen elsewhere on here that someone mentioned that "tigger" as they referred to it was out in the piracy rings before it was in the stores.
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|The one thing I wished Betanews would have discussed with the Microsoft dude is this.
Microsoft should make something available to the ones that have Windows XP that does not pass the legit test (like me) where you could purchase the license to be put into the existing copy to make it legit instead of having to buy the physical copy and have to completely un-install and re-install from scratch. I don't mind spending the money but sure don't want to have to go through the un-install/re-install process.
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|...because if it's a counterfeit, there is no way of telling if it's truly a bit-for-bit copy of the legitamite thing or a cracked and somehow flawed/changed version of Windows XP. Why would MS want to put a legit S/N on something that was "made" by someone else? Again, think in terms of counterfeited merchandise. Would Gucci want to issue a certificate of authenticty for a knock-off purse just because you gave them a couple hundred dollars?
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