Why do all conservatives hate America and American values?

— They want wars, but they'd rather type on their keyboards than go fight in one.
— They want $4 gas, but want the government to subsidize their SUVs.
— They claim to like freedom, but have absolutely no idea what is in the Constitution.
— They want to snoop and spy into everyone's business and personal affairs, but the republicans claim that not even the FBI has the right to investigate THEM!

Oy.

Every time you post your credibility goes down...

You have war, you say.
Are you sure it is YOU that have chosen this war?
It is your government, that has done this, without asking you, with the help of Media.
Are you satisfied with this war? Can you count the money you pay, day in, day out for this?
And the terrorism? Did you stop this?
Of course not.
Congratulations my friend.

I'm glad you always used a little "w" in the word "war", as I wasn't aware that any War had been declared. ;-)

Come elections, heads will roll. This has got to be the last straw.

Don't count on it. I expect nothing to change at all, and that will give those in power breathing room and a new mission. More terror please, more war please, more illegals please, etc..

So many great issues in a country where most remember more about the last American Idol or Lost episode than anything about their local politicians.

Part IV of our coverage on investigation into protection of US Citizens, but its NOT spying.

Of course they won't investigate it, its as simple as, looking at your list of people you call, determine who you call is NOT on a terrorist watch list, then move on.

That's it. I STILL -have not heard- one problem with this.

Tell me *ONE* , JUST *ONE* Liberty or Freedom you have lost or given up as a result.

NOT *ONE* person has said, because you don't have a valid point. You dislike the NSA having access to your PUBLIC phone records.

If that's the case, then the Bush administration shouldn't consider the EFF lawsuit a threat to national security.

That makes no sense at all... none.

Well, isn't the EFF law suit about this telco spying? If not, well then the EFF has been lying.

Anyway, if it were just mapping who everyone is talking to by phone numbers, then what are the Bush Administration afraid of? What is there in the law suit that would breach "national security"?

I really don't know what there isn't to understand about my comment, please say which part is confusing you.

Maybe you should consider moving to a third world country where the people have no rights and the government can do what it wants with you, your land, and your family without any means to defend yourself. I have lived under many of those conditions and I do not intend to do so again without a fight. I suspect you have not and that you have almost no realization as to what it would be like.

"What is there in the law suit that would breach "national security"?"

Gee I don't know... maybe what is and isn't being done?

He needs to move to a third world nation because he doesn't feel that this is an infringement? Is it so hard to believe that an agency named National Security Agency is only concerned with national security? I am not mocking the conditions you have endured, but please realize that everything is not necessarily what it "could" be.

There is always the possiblity for a benign facist regime. Just like the theory of communism doesn't fail a system, humanity implementing it does.

No one denies that the government could be using this only for "good", the problem is that they could be using it for other purposes. Without oversight there is no accountability.

Just as a parent strives to raise a child with values, education, and good judgement, we as good citizens strive to make our nation uphold it's lofty values too. As a child performs at a lower level when we allow it to accept less, it will also strive to attain a higher goal when we challenge and encourage it to do so. It is the same with a nation. If we allow it to be less by not maintaining goals and discipline it will degrade into a mere shadow of what it could be. I always want my country to be the best it can be.

Handcuffing a child and demanding success will lead them to disrespect you and view you as unrealistic. Treat a child like a liar and they will surely become one.

[rijp]: Tell me *ONE* , JUST *ONE* Liberty or Freedom you have lost or given up as a result.

Obviously you haven't read the USA Patriot Act. How about the 5th Amendment[/b]? You CAN be detained indefinitely and not charged as an "enemy combatants."

The republicans declared war on the Constitution in response to 911. Unlike the Founding Fathers who created the document amidst war to declare our freedom from tyranny and to increase liberty, the republicans instead used it as an opportunity to destroy America by eroding the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 14th Amendments.

[b]1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH[/b]
The Patriot Act broadly expands the official definition of terrorism, so that many domestic groups that engage in nonviolent civil disobedience could very well find themselves labeled as terrorists.

— The Government may now prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they reveal that the government requested information on their clients or members in the course of an investigation. It has become a crime for these individuals to try to safeguard your privacy or to tell you that you are under investigation.

[b]1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION[/b]
Government agents may now monitor the First Amendment-protected activities of religious and political institutions, and then infiltrate these groups with no suspicion of criminal activity. This is a return to domestic spying on law-abiding religious and political groups.

- You may now be the subject of a government investigation simply because of the political, activist, or advocacy groups you are involved in, or the statements you make within these groups.

[b]1st AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESS GOVERNMENT INFORMATION[/b]
A U.S. Department of Justice directive actively encourages federal, state, and local officials to resist and/or limit access to government records through Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests. Not even Congress is allowed to see information regarding the NSA spying program because the republican administration says "it's classified." Throw out the principle of checks and balances and we'd have no reason for the Revolutionary War with King George, and thus the very reason for this country's existence.

Finally, do a google search on Hamdi and Padilla, two people who were detained for years, not allowed an attorney, nor even told what the charges were against them, only that they were "enemy combatants."
[b]http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=awICSSpNTAOM&refer=us

I suppose you're now going to come up with another defense of why Americans should not have the rights the Constitution guarantees them. Go ahead. We're waiting. And in the meantime, if you hate America so much, why don't you leave?

You have some serious angst... did it occur to you at any time during all of that typing that you didn't answer the question?

I reread my post and still saw no mention of handcuffs or demanding success. I did see encouraging them to strive to attain a higher goal and challenging them. I do in part agree with your assertation that if treated like a liar they may well become one. However, if we take the high road and "expect" them to be honest they are far more likely to be honest. This is exactly the point I was making. When we allow our government to act like thugs without speaking out we become enablers. To be the country with the best government in the world we must be vigilant and not allow it to be destroyed by enemies from outside nor fools from within that would dismantle the Constitution to the point that it is a worthless piece of paper.

You skipped the part about the 5th amendment in the very first paragraph? Or did you read it at all?

Yes, I read it, in fact I have read it twice now and it doesn't apply. What I want to know is how it has effected the course of your day or any day since you first heard that it may be happening?

Treat your child as if a majority of what they do is wrong because it is possible that it is. Make them answer for every movement and require a shaparone. Treat them as if they are exploiting everything they can and are inherently dishonest because they have lied in the past and see how things go.

Oh, how convenient! Heaven forbid we get to the bottom of this and get some answers...

They are too afraid of what they might find...

id like to know why the supreme court doesnt get involved, as far as i know they have the right to see everything that is classified.

Slowly over time, the Executive Branch of the government has been usurping more an more power from the other branches. This can be seen in the NSA not being accountable to any group but the Executive Branch. I'll give Bush that, he didn't start it...he's just pushed it farther than anyone before him dared.

(Does anyone else remember a tv series called The Lone Gunmen[/i] and an episode dealing with an [i]Octium chip...the episode aired before 9/11. )

U.S. Senate Won't Probe Telco Monitoring

Nate,

Fixed that for ya. ;) No need to lie to get headlines, man.

The new headline is right on, I'd say.

Yeah, he really should tell the truth:

U.S. Lackeys Won't Probe Telco Spying

Define spying. Now define monitoring.

If I spy on you while you are banging your girlfriend, you would be upset. If however, I just noticed you were out with your girlfriend while you were at a bar, I could jump to my own conclusions, but I wouldn't be Spying now would I?

Intently watching to gain information isn't the same as simply reviewing a phone list to insure you are not calling Al Quaida. If your phone calls don't include cells, and can't be traced to criminal activity, what's the problem?

Go back and watch your I dream of Jeannie episodes and drinking your PBR, its ok man, relax. WE don't care that you called 900-hotbabe and paid $1000 last month. They don't care.

I think he was agreeing with the new headline *I* posted.

Just for clarifications, since we want to have facts here. Dictionary.com reference on spying:

v. spied, (spd) spy·ing, spies (spz)
v. tr.
To discover by close observation.
To investigate intensively.

v. intr.
To seek or observe something secretly and closely.
To make a careful investigation: spying into other people's activities.

and now for monitoring:

To check the quality or content of (an electronic audio or visual signal) by means of a receiver.
To check by means of an electronic receiver for significant content, such as military, political, or illegal activity: monitor a suspected criminal's phone conversations.
To keep track of systematically with a view to collecting information: monitor the bear population of a national park; monitored the political views of the people.

Maybe both definitions are correct. They were monitoring secretely as a spy would monitor :)

See above definitions. If you can't laugh at the fact that the defs are similar I think we all need to take a breath.

See Blackadder goes forth episode 5 "General Hospital":

http://www.gazmac.freese...ackadder_4-5_script.htm

Darling: "So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies."

Melchett: "Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!"

Darling: "And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--"

Melchett: "Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!"

How broad a scope is all this cloak and dagger stuff? Just a few days ago Tony Blair testified before Parlament that the U.S. does indeed (and has for several years) kidnap and imprison people "of interest" in secret prisons in Europe. This is done without legal authority and the persons kidnapped are held without trial or access to lawyers. This admission was because of a watch dog group that had obtained documents showing what was going on and he had to defend himself against the accusation that he might have invokved the U.K. At one time we were accused of being police for the world. Now we are being accused of being the "thugs" of the world.

*Just a few days ago Tony Blair testified before Parlament that the U.S. does indeed (and has for several years) kidnap and imprison people "of interest" in secret prisons in Europe*

Umm..its WAR! Like they don't torture, capture, detain, and try to kill our people? Give me a damn break. Are you even old enough to remember Vietnam? WE STILL have people who are being held by other governments..

We are MUCH more tame when it comes to this stuff.

I say, so what. imprison them, what's the problem? they have information we need, hold them. Hell I would volunteer to help torture those bas****s if I could..

Its done without WHOSE legal authority? We don't need permission to hold people if they have information which could lead to stopping another 9/11. I say those prisoners in Abu Prison deserved what they got. Beat the crap out of them. Good! Next time, they will know to stay away from organized Terror camps.

you mess with the bull, sometimes you get the horns. Play with fire, you will get burned. Oh Well.

"Are you even old enough to remember Vietnam? WE STILL have people who are being held by other governments."

I am old enough. And, as in many other situations before and especially since, you shouldn't have been there in the first place. Unfortunately, your soldiers and on occasion your citizens have paid the price for the arrogrance of your leaders.

Some never learn their lesson, even when it topples skyscrapers.

For the record, we recently had some issues too. However, unlike your government, we're up front without public, don't lie to them and especially don't spy on them arbitrarily. Mind you, given our foreign and domestic policy, we don't have to .

And we still got the job done.

It is no surprise that your system will not investigate allegations of spying on your own population. It sanctioned it, it wanted it and it will do whatever it takes to cover it up / gloss it over and keep it out of the public eye. The sheep that comprise your ppopulace will continue on their apathetic merry way and will not question. The minority that comprises your right wing will exploit this and continue to tighten their strangehold on civil liberties and rights, thus making an even bigger mockery of your Constitution than it is already.

No surprises here - just business as usual.

You've dug your own grave.

I was in Vietnam and recalled for Desert Storm. You, sir are a fool if you promote or condone kidnapping and torture. I'm sure John McCain would agree with me (he actually has on TV). Acting like violent bullies does not promote democracy or peace. It does turn the international community against us. It leaves us with staggering debt paying for a war that was caused by bad politics and bad foreign policy. It leaves us in more danger not less. A government that spies on citizens, kidnaps people in various countries, imprisons and denies legal recourse, lies to the people. endangers and kills citizens (area 51) and then will not allow them legal recourse does not deserve to claim that they are a democratic society or defenders of freedom and justice. Our present lieing politicians need to be removed and replaced with honest and ethical persons. I love my country and I hate this scum destroying what it and our Constitution have stood for.

How convenient for our government...

Look: These are the same cowards who are cowering over ONE single investigation, drink and drive and say its alright, take bribes, give illegals amnesty, and who knows what else we don't know.

You trust them?

I agree with you. Plus they are the same hypocrites who want ISP's to record everything we do for 2 years because we "might" break the law some time, yet don't want the FBI raiding congress because its against their rights.

Its fine for them/congress to take away our rights, but not fine when its done to them.

you know its not only reserved for high political people the CEO of your company, if he was caught drinking and driving or taking bribes, do you think your company would oust him immediately? No, they would do the same thing, give him lots of chances. Its the benefits of being in a high authority position, everyone likes to think its just once..

WE are HUMAN! Stop acting like they are being treated as special people.

For one thing, the media ONLY reports on things like this, but you DON'T hear about ALL those other cases where the politicians are convicted, where they are arrested for drinking and driving, and where they are relieved of duty, it happens just like it does to regular people.

But THAT isn't newsworthy, its better to report when there are exceptions, which is what YOU read. Its not an accurate picture of what really happens. They DO get busted contrary to popular belief.

Those people that get away it, are just like OJ, they have friends or lawyers in high places. well, there isn't much we can do about those "exceptions" we just have to move on, and believe that the REST of people in office have scruples.

If you don't trust our government, who can you trust? There isn't much left after that.

Yes, we do have SOME corrupte invidivuals, but those other people who do uphold the law, would be very upset that you think they are ALL that way. That's just not a fair or even accurate assessment AT ALL.

I always thought the press jumps all over whenever a politician gets in trouble, not just when they walk. Just like OJ...that was news long before anyone thought he would get away with it.

What place do you live? I want to live there too.

Who watches the watchers? No-One and they complain when they are watched. What do we do? We VOTE the crap out of there, thats what we do. Unfortunately more people can tell you what songs an Amercan Idol sung then tell you where their Senator stands on ANY one issue.

Anyways, with all the corruption thats there, do you really ant them getting any more possible power?

Good. They can handle this behind closed doors, and not risk nullifiying any edge we've gained in the fight against terror.

By the way, I think it's been covered by several responsible media outlets, but in case people have missed it amid the headline-selling liberal media blitz on all of this:

The data being looked at by our government agencies are, in particular, phone and data communications between known or suspected terrorist elements within our borders being made with known or suspected foreign enemies abroad.

The authorization for these activities was granted by elected officials; if you're uncomfortable with their decisions, then vote for someone else that more closely represents your misplaced paranoia.

I think "Big Brother" could give-a-@#$% less about moms' daily gossip calls or juniors' 900 number forays. It's more likely that our intelligence agencies, (and I, for one), are far more interested in safeguarding our nation than listening in on the Joe/Jane Citizen.

But this sort of practical analysis doesn't sell as well in terms of ratings and newspapers, and it's certainly less fun than making a stink over our nation's belated and still understrength efforts to give national security a serious place in our spoiled, sheltered little lives.

I predict another trendy shift in public opinion when the next attack occurs... and it WILL occur, since so many are so dead-set on crippling our ability to prevent it. Shamefully, those much needed realizations about the world will cost lives, and come too late.

"The authorization for these activities was granted by elected officials; if you're uncomfortable with their decisions, then vote for someone else that more closely represents your misplaced paranoia."
Elected officials are not supposed have this kind of authority, courts are. Courts...you know...they place warrants are SUPPOSED to come from. Go look up "Checks and Balances" and the real reason the government has 3 branches. I'll give you a hint, it isn't to divvy up the workload.

"I think "Big Brother" could give-a-@#$% less about..."
Yeah, when I had faith in the government a long time ago, I didn't think they "could give-a-@#$% less about":
- things people do in the privacy of their bedrooms,
- who people love,
- trying to compensate for the general populace's disinterest and ineptitude at raising children,
- what music people listen to,
- what video games people play, and
- what videos people watch.
They just keep proving they do not have the responsibility to keep their noses out of people's PRIVATE lives.

"...making a stink over our nation's belated and still understrength efforts to give national security a serious place in our spoiled, sheltered little lives."
Umm, "National Security" is a symptom of spoiled sheltered little lives, as people give up the freedoms and protections they are taking for granted that our country's founders had the forethought put down on paper.

I didn't realize someone who visits BetaNews worked on the NSA program and knows its details. Some of us choose to ask questions and not believe everything we hear. Others just think the government can do no wrong and that we shouldn't ask questions and just trust them. The constant referral to terrorism and 9/11 are what is called ruling by fear, and McCarthy did the same thing a while back in his search for communists. Isn't there an old saying "if we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it"....

I'm sure those trials started innocently enough until it got out of control and had to be stopped by some responsible journalists who were not afraid to ask questions. Good thing we live in a free society where we are allowed to do so, at least for now.

Attorney General Gonzalez is working on stopping reporters from exposing the government fraud and illegal actions via threats of wiretapping and the idea that freedom of speech does not protect journalists who expose government operations. Too bad the leaks always come from people in their administration they are trying to protect.

Wow you are spreading so much misinformation, and you sound so negative, I don't even know where to begin with this.

First of all, Terrorism is a REAL threat. That was proven on 9/11. That's not ruling by fear, if that is what REALLY happened. It would be fear if it were simply a threat, but since it happened, we have to believe it can happen again.. THAT'S why they are looking into your phone records. Since we can't trust some politicians, maybe they are trying to go back over phone records to insure their validity, did you ever think of that?

What if some politician used your phone to call a terrorist.. Did you ever think of that? You just said we can't trust anyone, so maybe someone working for government, tapped your phone to make a call on their behalf, and they did it on YOUR phone! Yeah.. you don't see it on your bill, but the phone company has a record of EVERY Call. Some switch, outside of the phone company, that doesn't have an agenda, will log the call and every call is traceable.

McCarthiasm was a different matter. That was a witch hunt to find communists, because HE was paranoid. He felt the threat of war existed and didn't want to be caught in the middle at war..

The main difference being that just because you ARE a communist, doesn't make you a bad person. Anyone from China, USSR, Korea, N. Vietnam, were considered communists.. so what if they were defectors? They are STILL communists, by relation.

Same thing, how do you find those people. Everyone that is calling terrorists and who has communist ties, please stand up. Yeah, that works.

We ARE learning from history, its called "perparation". We can't be everywhere at once. Some idiot was on break, and didn't communicate he was leaving his post at the airport, and some other moron left his badge in the open, or dropped, a terrorist replaced the picture with his own, and THAT is how they got on the plane 9/11.

How many times have you been able to enter a building where security is, only to find they were nowhere to be found. You could have dropped a bomb by the desk, set it to go off monday morning, and the security desk would have been none the wiser.

People **** up EVERY SINGLE DAY. Once again, said it one, I have said it a thousand times, and I will say it millions more, *PEOPLE* are the problem. People don't give a s***. People will do ANYTHING for a buck. EVERYONE has a breaking point. This is why they won't hire people with credit issues, who have been divorced, people who have kids from previous marriages, people who have relatives in prison, because they could be contrued as a threat. A Threat because they could accept a bribe for a million dollars, and sell us out to make a buck, because they NEED the money.

They weren't trials either, they were hearings. They weren't official, they were some twisted way to get people to be afraid of their neighbors, and once AGAIN, that was 1 man's quest. 1 MAN. Don't get it twisted. Everyone has this dark evil sick demented tunnel vision, like this entire countries history was some guy with a white hood and owned 1500 slaves, and didn't like broccolli. Give me a damn break! THINK!

MCCarthy doesn't reppresent america. He had power, but eventually they figure out he didn't have any evidence, and they did bring him to justice... of course, you convenietly left that part out, now didn't you?

Go back and read that history book, read what happened to McCarthy.. Then come back.

Another saying, "History is a complete version of what happened". Don't paraphrase. Give us the WHOLE story, not the part for sensationalist reasons.

And the reason why they are stopping reporters from exposing the government, is because every moron with a pad and pen is capable of causing hysteria, because YOU PEOPLE believe every damn thing you read, and you won't find the answer for yourself. That's what is REALLY going on here. you think because you read a few pages from the 50's history, that gives you an accurate depiction of what happened.

WRONG! READ US History, ALL of it, not one chapter. I suppose we could summarize 2001 with 1 page then, 9/11? That about it? Stock Market All time high.. oh, we forgot about that? Refund on tax money.. oops, forgot that too. Yeah.. how quickly we forget, history isn't one event, its a COMPENDIUM of events.

Not just the bad stuff, its ALL of History. Good AND Bad, but you aren't any better than these people you dislike when you simply reduce it to something YOU want to point out.

This is how rumors get started...

*He had power, but eventually they figure out he didn't have any evidence, and they did bring him to justice*

And how did they do that? Maybe it took a little investigation[/b] and [b]probing.

Come on, someone, refute my claims :)

Sorry, but one man can't call congressional hearings without having at least a few other people on his side. And yes, he HAD POWER just like people in our current government have the power. And yes he was found out, but not by the administration but because a reporter started asking questions which led to other questions and people waking up. I think you just proved my point dude.

yeah lets refund tax money, that was a great idea, that was more to help the rich and business' then to help the common person, and that money could have been saved and used for something better like more funding for equipment for poor schools IN AMERICA, and for disaster relief.

There's another saying as well "history is written by the winners"....

I understand the need to be prepared, I am just making the case that we cannot give up all of our rights simply against the threat that another terrorist attack might happen. There has to be a middle ground so that everyone is not constantly looking over their shoulder to see if big brother is watching.

I've already said that I used to be of the mindset that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. At some point, you realize that there has to be a balance...

now thats just crazy talk...our money is much better spent at $6 billion per month in Iraq. Forget the poverty, desperately failing schools (no thanks from the 'No Child Left Behind' act), and disaster-thrashed areas....

how can we when it is absolutely correct, and we agree? at least i do.

Wow, I think your wrong!

In other news, the government has renounced any and all ability and/or desire to police itself. I was really hoping the necessity for ARII wouldn't occur in my lifetime.

Gutless, cowering republicans strike again. Senator Orrin Hatch said he has "won assurances" from Vice President Cheney that the White House will review proposed changes to the law that would restrict certain aspects of the NSA program. So D.i.c.k. Cheney — not the 4th amendment[/b] — is going to decide if it's OK to spy on American citizens without a warrant. And this worthless bunch republican senators has agreed to let him do it. What a sick disgrace. The phone should companies be forced to testify about how and to what extent they cooperated in an illegal and secret NSA spying program.

Just a reminder of what the 4th Amendment says, but which many Americans no longer like:
[b]The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You and your silly constitutional references.

It also says somewhere in that 220 year old document about the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. and something in there about all men being created equal.

I guess this administration only applies the constitution when it is agreeable with their ideology. See igoring equality in the gay marriage amendment debate.

On this topic, some people are naive in believing they are only looking at suspected or known terrorist domestic calls. If you can confirm through evidence they are not on a fishing expedition with the call database or the desire to have ISPs hold data for 2 years, then I will trust our government. Everyone knows where we are headed if we continue to let the government intrude on our privacy and take away our rights as citizens.

We may as well be communists where the government controls all information into and out of our lives, and can do as they please without cause. That way we will never be victims of terrorist attacks.

OK, quotation man.. re-read what you wrote..

".... but upon probable cause .....".

9/11 WAS Probable cause.

And its NOT Spying, I don't care what the article says. If your phone calls don't include terrorist watch list recipients, what's the damn problem?

"...supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

9/11 did not give probable cause to investigate the entire nation, just like the trade center bombing didn't. And even if it didn't probable cause is decided by courts.

You don't know with any certainty that this program even exists which shows just how much of a negative effect it is having on your life. Yet and still you believe that the NSA is doing more than trying to protect you. Get real... there is far too much information there to sift through it all to profile a large group of people. Why even correlate the phone numbers to names unless there is a reason?

oh lets just keep using 9/11 to justify everything, matter of fact lets use 9/11 to make the government into a totilitarianism just so we dont have to worry about terrorism. well ill tell you what, if the gov keeps up with this crap they wont have to worry about terrorism as much as revolution...

eh? I thought the point was that it DOES exist, they just aren't going to probe how far it goes...the only negative effect it has had on my life is reading the mindless drivel from people who seem to think that the gov't can do no wrong and that we should give up all of our rights and freedoms this country was founded upon.

I was right there with everyone when the towers fell, glad to see Bush was going to take a hardline against those involved and go after them. But after years of war in Iraq that until today seemed to be stagnating, and many domestic problems plaguing this country, I got a little tired of it.

Not to mention the fact that this administration uses 9/11 and national security as an excuse for every single thing it does. I say be vigilant, but lets not forget that there is a line in the sand where our rights cannot be infringed any longer, and I think we are rapidly approaching it...

All back and forth aside, I just want to ask you if you have a line, personally that you would say stop to the government. Are you willing to give up all of your rights to protect the country from terrorism? What kind of lifestyle does that become? Seriously, I want to know what "enough is enough" means to you...

The reason that America is so great is that we have the freedom to do as we please, and we celebrate different faiths and allow our citizens those freedoms.

then why not let the supreme courts oversee them? or the fbi? or someone. there needs to be oversight, enough of this national security bull****, there needs to be control of powers like this. whos to say some jackass nsa employee isnt going to bring a laptop home with all kinds of call records on it and let it get stolen? how do you know they arent doing all kinds of other things to protect national security? how can you know if there is no oversight? hell you could be abducted overnight in intrests of national security and we may never know.

ever think that getting the gov to take away our rights was the idea behind terrorism? making us have to live in fear from our government certainly seems like terrorism to me.

I've said it before... you have to trust someone. As more people become involved everything becomes weak. Information and data get leaked and the whole thing falls apart.

Excellent point. Those that terrorize us hate our way of life and the freedoms we enjoy. Altering our way of life means the terrorists win.

if anything has been proven by history, it is that people simply cannot be trusted.

"...they wont have to worry about terrorism as much as revolution..."

One could ask...what is the difference?

Not to be nitpicky, but I from what I have heard, they have no problem with our way of life; instead having problem with how we/our government props up their dictators, paying "royal" families for national resources.
At worst, some have a problem with our culture and traditions pushing out their own; but I really don't think that would warrant committing acts of terrorism away from their own soil.

Sure, exaggerate the opposing opinion and then criticize it as a confused patriot. If you truly believe that those who oppose your thoughts here can be described in your first paragraph, discussing this further is probably pointless.

...you proved my point as well. Adding more people and agencies to mix is NOT the answer.

How has your way of life been altered?

Conservatives always throw 911 in your face. They're still scared TO DEATH of that day, where two commercial buildings went down. At the same time, these keyboard commandos would never go sign up to spend four years in Iraq and what's coming, Iran, to support their little wars.

Finally, NOT ONE of you cons has ever, ever taken me up on my challenge: IF YOU THINK WHAT THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT IS DOING IS LEGAL AND ALL RIGHT — BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE — THEN POST ALL YOUR PERSONAL INFO ON THIS FORUM, STARTING WITH:
— Social Security number
— Full name and address
— All credit card numbers
— Bank account number
— Email address
— Your children's names[/B]

and so on. You get the drift. Any takers? If not, then it is what it is: [B]ILLEGAL SPYING.

You are an ignorant fool to continually make a comparison between phone logs and financial information.

It's about privacy, but once again, another conservative chickens out in the face of their own hypocrisy. You're on my side, you're just too gutless to admit it.

the intended outcome is what is different, revolutions usually aim for putting a better government to benefit the people in place, and well terrorism... they just want to destroy someone elses way of life, maybe for religious reasons, or because their way of life is not as good, or many other reasons but revolution usually tries for good, terrorism bad, but the government prolly thinks both are bad.

no but adding oversight from another party like the supreme court or congress is. people are more carefull of their actions when they are being watched.

patriot act ring a bell?

I was just trying to say, what prevents a government from calling revolutionaries terrorists. Not saying there isn't a difference.

Are you kidding me? An open forum and a national security agency can hardly be compared as hypocrisy. You are talking about giving the public direct access to not only financial information, but the ability to steal one's identity verses information that isn't public and may not ever be seen by a human eye. I thought you were smarter than that.

How has your life been effected by the NSA phone log issue? That is the subject here, no?