This whole place has been gradually de-evolving into quite the /. wannabe lately.

You're claiming that time is running backwards at Betanews? Impressive if true, self-fulfilling proof that this place isn't like /. if not. They may be geeks, but at least the comments are usually informed.

It's amazing what a couple of complete imbeciles can do to absolutely destroy a topic.

When some folks get online, they apparently regress to age 3.

Once you filter out tigreseis, ostrakon, cescam66, and internetworld7 it's a pretty normal discussion.

Ow! That hurts.

I take issue with this "marketing" approach. I did not ask for this, have no use for it, and would not have downloaded it had it been offered as an option. So; the damned thing wasn't even mentioned in the download and no option available to get just iTunes and none of the other bloatware. What gives??

So why the hell are these companies being allowed to get away with this? Do they believe that they now own your computer and desktop since you bought one of their products?

I now will have to consider running iTunes on only one machine so I can keep my others in some reasonable pristine order. I had been running it on 4 machines but this presents some problems and between it and Napster, explain some serious slowdowns in my computers of late. I think that speaking with an attorney over this might be in order.

The minute you accepted the EULA for closed source software, they owned your computer. Get it now?

The point of most of what Apple and Microsoft have done over the last couple of years has been to demonstrate that they own your computer and you just lease it from them. Moreover, they demonstrate that they can alter your machine at any time and monitor everything you do lest you do something naughty with their property. The current Administration and their tame courts are in total agreement with this philosophy and wish to do everything in their power to cement corporate hold on everything. They are certain it's good for us.

I haven't figured out what to do about it other than go all linux, and see how many others there are out there who prefer to not be owned by the biggest corporations on the block. Anyone with any good ideas, let me know.

Funny.

I have *tons* of closed source software on my system.

Amazingly, it's still on my desk.

*checks invoice*

Nope, still mine.

Don't put Microsoft in this boat with Apple... I don't think Microsoft would even attempt this to sneak entirely new applications onto your PC with no ability opt-in on the part of the consumer.

I understand why Apple wants to jam their crapware on your machine, but it strikes me as unethical. Worse than the load of crapware that Sony puts on a new pc, becuase at least then you know there's a bunch of stuff to go uninstall.

iTunes = technically inept bloatware
WMP = technically inept bloatware
quicktime = technically inept bloatware
safari = technically inept bloatware
IE = technically inept bloatware
MacOS = bloatware
Windows = bloatware
Vista = the most bloated bloatware ever
iPhone = MP3 player for dummies, fashion- victims and sheep.

Unfortunately I have to use Windows. XP is the least of evils.

Now for the good things in life.

xPlorer2
Media Player Classic HC
foobar
firefox (ish. still sluggish as it gradually bloats)
Halite
XNview
notepad++
Spybot S&D
Keepass
ffdshow
VLC
Virtualdub
Wireshark
Audacity
7-Zip
Renamer
Unlocker
C-Cleaner
Foxit
Locate32

etc etc etc.

The key? Small, well coded software that does what i needs to do and nothing more.

The reason why all software from the likes of Microsoft, Apple, and all their competitors suck ass? They need to make a profit out of the clueless public by constantly creating new versions with added "features" (=bloat), and also keep you upgrading your hardware needlessly.

Microsoft and Apple are as bad as each other, and guess what? Any other corporation that takes their place will be the same. Such is the result of a crap economic system where more and more profit is the only driver in life.

Hence, freeware produced by independent people is generally great, and ANY software produced by corporations almost universally sucks, except in the minds of people who know very little about anything. Get used to it.

Good list, I prefer Irfanview over XNView though. I also prefer MPlayer over VLC because MPlayer uses a CLI. <3

I think I looked at xPlorer2 once, but I believe the best Windows Explorer is still the original, even with all the unfixed bugs in the XP and Vista ones (Vista's is better, sadly Vista is also too slow). I've tried a few clones but they don't come close yet... the best one so far is this one: http://www.cubicreality.com/

Id have to say apple is getting worse with this bloatware crap.

I am a developer and I installed Safari to check how web pages look in WebKit browsers. With Safari was also installed Apple Software Update which was asking me all the time to install QuickTime and iTunes too. If was a normal computer user, I would have accepted and thus with iTunes I would have had MobileMe too. Pretty annoying... Apple is using the same tactics that MS used and it is no better.

Actually I reall don't see a problem with this. It's not like it's the 1980s and we have no harddrive space to speak of. We have harddrives with 100s of GBs of space now. So what if MobileMe's included, Apple are upfront in saying so and it's up to you whether you install iTunes or not. If the whole thing cheeses you off that much then it's very simple - don't buy an iPhone! Simple as.

It's not just the hard space. The bloat can also slow down your computer, make it less stable, and cause other problems. It seems Apple actually wasn't upfront and if you don't install iTunes, you get nagged to do so. And iTunes isn't just for those with iPhones (or even iPods). Simple as? I'm so tempted to modify that sentence for you. :)

iTunes 7.6 is big, slow and crap enough, don't need nor wan't 7.7

I'll stick with 1.1.4 (jailbroken) on my ipod touch thanks.

This is shameful, and the world would be up in arms if Microsoft or google started to do this.

By the way, Windows Search on vista will be rolled out soon as a "critical update" on vista, and optional on XP. That means Microsoft will soon have a chance to return the favor.

Yeah they are still trying to push Safari. Happened to me a few days ago. Bet this update was part of that.

I remember aol installed all kinds of crap like this in the computer, everything from screen savers, to toolbars etc. No option to NOT install it. If you have no intention of using mobileme, why do they automatically add that? I mean, if you have an apple machine, fine. But Vista already has enough issues without adding something like that.

The sad thing is most people probably wouldn't even know to go to the control panel to mess with it anyway, they should make a apple folder on the start menu, and put it under that if anything. Do you want to add a mobile me preferences to the control panel? Yes or no? Sure does sound like a reasonable thing to me.

There's no need to whine and cry about this. Apple is only trying to give you PC users stuck in the stone ages of computing a taste of the wonderful world of Apple and what using a modern computer should feel like. So be grateful kids.

It's reasonable to want a choice of what is installed on one's computer.

What is worrying is that you Apple cultists have so willingly surrendered your freedom to Steve and the Apple mothership.

Hmm.

"What is worrying is that you Apple cultists have so willingly surrendered your freedom to Steve and the Apple mothership"

Surrendered it from... what, taking it up the a** by Ballmer & Co.? Yup! That's real freedom, there, champ. Given the alternative, I'll take the mothership.

Balmer said: DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS.

I guess I can see your point, though it does pale slightly in light of Balmer and Co.

http://rixstep.com/2/1/20080701,00.shtml

Apple doesn't quite have the same bad track record as MS does with underhanded stuff.

You're a moron.

So that makes it okay? Moron.

mo·ron –noun
1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.
2. Psychology. a person of borderline intelligence in a former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50 to 69.

idiot |?id??t|
noun informal
a stupid person.
• archaic Medicine a mentally handicapped person.

ORIGIN Middle English (denoting a person of low intelligence)

=tigreseis

And you're a retard.

Yes, it does, retard.

half-wit –noun
1. a person who is feeble-minded.
2. a person who is foolish or senseless; dunderhead.
[Origin: 1670–80]

—Synonyms
2. blockhead, dolt, fool, nitwit, dope, dummy, dimwit.

Oh, that was a good comeback. Do you write your own material?

Wasn't Ostrakon a Gothic leader in the 4th century? I think he was a eunuch. It fits.

Now that one was good.

What, do you just hang on ostrakon's coat tails? At least you didn't copy him..oh you did. You need to look at your definition then. Idiot comes from the Greek "idiotes" which originally meant a person lacking professional skill.

Comeback? What, are you serious? You need to get out of high school, champ.

And "Do you write your own material"? My God, for someone with enough experience to call another a moron, one would think you could do better.

Go ahead, give it a shot. Reply to this one. Tip: leave the cliches behind. You can do it!

An overly immense interest in eunuchs (Goodness! Someone's been hitting the dictionary! Bravo!) isn't something I'd generally announce to the rest of the world, were I you, but hey, you're still catching up. I understand.

Keep at it, slugger, there's hope for you yet!

Thank you.

According to my timestamps, he posted at 1:40 AM, whereas I posted some time after 3 AM (not taking into consideration timezone differences). If anything, your point should have been directed at me, but the etymological fact is nevertheless true, notwithstanding.

Oooo, name calling, touché! This battle of wits is over my friend. : )

Shouldn't you be getting off the library computer and back to summer school so you can pass 7th grade next year?

fotkke thejjk jkxzaoo kkookos. I can't do it.

Even if I was still in 7th grade, this battle didn't last very long. That's not saying too much for your cognitive abilities.

Touche is a good one though.

Not bad for a first attempt.
You can do it, you just have to keep at it. Don't give up now!

Had MS done this, people would be screaming. I swear Apple is turning into MS!

MobileMe and the iPhone is a huge part of iTunes since the iPhone is a more complex version of an iPod, Apple uses iTunes as a gateway to their music and tools for the iPhone. You ever notice that Apple also runs a service for syncing to your iphone regardless of whether you have an iphone installed on your computer or not. Or maybe their Bonjour service that jumps the hurdles of networking in order to share your library. Apple has done this for years. As for Safari It's not under updates its under other software releases.

" I swear Apple is turning into MS!"

Sorry but Apple could never become that inept, incompetent, ineffective, inefficient, ineffectual, and incapable. Not Apple, not on your life. :)

wow, that was an epic bulls*** :D

You forgot 'or as big in market share' as Microsoft.

No, you're right, they already become more that that.

why dont you just go tell your mommy about it whiner

"No, you're right, they already become more that that."

I'm sorry, I don't speak retard.

I'd MUCH rather tell yours.

*Dirty Thoughts*

*Wide Smile*

One wouldn't think that a two-year old, lacking 80 percent of its brain, would be able to randomly create an account on Betanews, and post meaningless drivel.

cescam66 proves mathematical probability wrong, of course, while ably demonstrating why one should never tell a mentally handicapped child that he can be anything when he grows up.

Yes, if you spin fast enough, you *can* lick the back of your own head. Keep going, you're almost there!

Ditto my above reply.

Your past posts point to the contrary...

half-wit –noun
1. a person who is feeble-minded.
2. a person who is foolish or senseless; dunderhead.
[Origin: 1670–80]

—Synonyms 2. blockhead, dolt, fool, nitwit, dope, dummy, dimwit.

Since you left out half the word, does that make you the half-wit?

or make as much money :)

Actually, I left out an entire hyphenated word, not merely half of one, and thank you bringing that to my attention. See correction.

Now, my name followed by the correct grammar particle would have made for an interesting faux-pas, but a name is a proper pronoun.

That's proper noun, trooper.

Trooper. I like that. I will have to use it more often.

ok your point?? you think im gonna feed you troll?? hell no

Not to point out the bleeding obvious, but were I a troll, you'd have just fed me, with that comment alone.

In order to abstain from feeding said trolls, one must abstain from creating comments such as the one you used to reply to me.

Though misguided, I admire your bravado.

Very Simple to remove.
Open Control Panel.go to Add & Remove programs find Apple mobile Devices (it was not there when I upgraded) remove. does not remove itune or their updater.

Don't they charge for the MobileMe service? How is this anything other than sneaky? If I had a program put a link on your control panel and when you try to follow through with that link you find out you have to pay to use it. Sounds like a Nigerian lottery scam to me.

I don't mind that Apple does these sneaky things -- because I just undo them and consider them to be harmless bad ideas.

With Microsoft Updates and other apps that ride on installers, I am generally annoyed as to how they install and am concerned about security. With Apple stuff on PCs? Nah. Just a bunch of silly helper apps from guys who aren't Windows developers...

Yeah, like the carpet bombing bug. No big deal really for the unsuspecting consumer.

*laughing*

Funniest thing I've real all day.

Thanks, man!

You're right if you use a Mac. No big deal at all. That's exactly why Apple took their sweet time to patch this. And as far as I'm concerned Apple could have taken until 3008 to patch this. The Webkit engine will always be more secure than Trident, Gecko, and Presto.

motherfuker did he say anything about using a mac?

No, fukwit, that's why he said "if you use a mac".

If you hadn't been a product of incest with your own mother, maybe you would be able to spell. Moron.

tigreseis calm down. There's no need to post insult after insult on this thread. You're going to have to get over your uncle touching you...

Your mother and I never wanted you. Just thought you should know that.

That's impossible. Eunuchs can't have children. It's okay, they weren't that big anyway.

Sounds like a repressed memory. I am glad you are still following ostrakon though. At least he's original.

when it comes to apple and mr. jobs, if it lasts longer than 4 hours, your suppose to call your doctor :)

take your own advice then

Assuming your allegation to be true, you would nevertheless be incorrect, as here have been non-castrated eunuchs. And for there to exist non-castrated eunuchs must logically mean that there must also exist the physical possibility of procreation, however undesirable to said eunuch. In the absence of this fact, you would have had a point.

Now, go back and disambiguate that last sentence. You need to be more specific for that insult to have any weight at all for the average reader.

Never-the-less, even "non-castrated" eunuchs were called thus because they either could not procreate or were disinclined to. It was a way of life.

So, my point still stands. Castrated or not, eunuchs didn't procreate. Therefore, you can't be my father. It must have been someone else's mother you slept with.

Stop it, you're making me blush.

Heh...

QT installs iTunes, iTunes installs Safari...and MobileMe.

Hey, maybe foxfyre is right!

Maybe the next update will simply install Mac OS X.

*evil grin*

Not unless you want to get sued by Apple for not having it on THEIR systems. [smiles]

Actually you got it backwards, iTunes installs QuickTime because it's a required component for iTunes to run. If you just download QuickTime however it does not install iTunes.

Anyway though, I really hate how Apple has started sneakily pushing this stuff lately.

When Apple does something like this everybody seems to be clamoring to rationalize it.

When Microsoft, or anyone else for that matter, does this type of thing they are excoriated.

Huge double standard.

Spyware.. so you install Quicktime and get iTunes, Surfari and Mobleme all without asking??

And since it's apple (the most trusted name in software/hardware) it's not spyware and is allowed..

At the very least, don't add Control Pannel Icons if you plan to install hidden "bundle ware." (I think I just created that, I call Copywrite Dibs if everyone starts using it.)

Add it to a preferences menu in the installed software, or as a tab or the like in the software. At least that way everyone thinks of it as a feature add on instead of Bundle Ware.

But, I also do not agree with the pratice of installing bundle ware for a software company's self preservation without specific opt in from the end user.

But alas, Windows does it, Yahoo does it, Google does it and the list goes on and on and on.

"At the very least, don't add Control Pannel Icons if you plan to install hidden "bundle ware." (I think I just created that, I call Copywrite Dibs if everyone starts using it.)"

I don't think so
http://www.spywareremove.com/removeBundleware.html

Dammit.

Well, it was worth a try.

just another reason im happy with iPhone 1.4. no need for "extra" crap software on my PC. Get that enough already.

"Users have not yet revealed whether they've discovered a method to remove the MobileMe icon without uninstalling iTunes 7.7 altogether."

I can live with a rogue icon. The important thing is how you disable the service and free your system from Apple slavery. Pay a visit to the Admin Tools, check your Services and locate the Apple Mobile Device. Change the startup type to Disabled. And violette.

With the Apple Mobile Device under XP you just uninstall it. It's seperate from iTunes, but is installed automatically by iTunes.

In Vista all you have to do is unistall everything but itunes and Quicktime and it takes it out.

Unrelated? You might be missing that what Apple tends to create are "Frameworks," and then writes Applications that apply them. QuickTime is a framework, as is WebKit. QuickTime Player and iTunes both use the QuickTime framework, while Safari and iTunes both use WebKit (iTunes uses it for the store interfaces).

I would suspect that with iTunes 7.7, Apple added a more mature sync services framework for syncing iPhones and other devices, as well as with software on the machine. As a minor part of this, a control panel for syncing with MobileMe. The support frameworks are included, and must be there for iTunes to work. Remove the control panel if you want. It probably will make you feel better.

Simple fact is that all these apps themselves are very small. They use common frameworks. QuickTime is like Windows Media. Compliaining about QuickTime being included with iTunes is like complaining about RandomVideoPlayerX requiring WindowsMedia , which will inevitably include its own player you may not use.

If you use iTunes, you will be using QuickTime, WebKit and the syncing frameworks.

That said, I do disagree with how Apple snuck Safari in a few months ago, but they updated the Software Update mechanism already to prevent that future.

Funny, I was able to install iTunes and then get rid of Quicktime (replaced with QT Alternative) and iTunes worked fine. So clearly Quicktime in whole is not required - Apple could no doubt as easily bundle the few required components without the full, invasive quicktime app. Probably the same is true of MobilMe, etc. But Apple is either A: lazy (maybe) or B: wants to install as much of their software on your system as they can whenever they get the chance. I'm betting on B.

Not all features of iTunes works without Quicktime. Quicktime is used for streaming their video content, along with audio content.

WTF apple, jesus...

Dam*-it Apple! Stop trying to push out your new or unsuccessful products through your successful one! This is the very reason I don't own an Ipod. This is crap, makes you wonder what else is getting installed behind the scenes.

You don't own an ipod because you can't afford one yet. Keep it real.

I hate when companies group unrelated software into one install to push it onto everyone's computer. That's why half of my friends have 10 toolbars in their browser.

iTunes should install iTunes.

If I wanted MobileMe I would install it.
If I wanted Safari I would install it.
If I wanted QuickTime I would install it.

The thing is itunes needs Quicktime to play files. It needs Safari to show you the iTunes Store, and it needs the syncing parts of MobileMe to sync the phone. What's the problem?

I understand quicktime to play quicktime files, but I don't have an iPhone and don't need the MobileMe. Maybe if it was compatable with my Motorolla Q, but then I wish I could hook up another MP3 player instead of a propriatary ipod. Also, NO, Safari is not needed for the iTunes store. I have been able to see the store for ages and didn't need Safari. IE or Firefox