Try as i may, I can't muster much interest in any of this. If Hollywood and the entertainment industry in general started making products that were worthy of looking at I might care.

There are too many outright low lifes producing such utter garbage today, that what used to be at the forefront and an example of the best that society can create, is now benchmark for the absolute worst that western culture can produce.

Until that changes they can take take their crap and ride back out on whatever format it came in on as far as I'm concerned.

Wow, best post I've read in months.

agreed 100%

people here long forgot that the entire point of the technology they arguing about is to deliver content from maker to consumer. right now the situation is that most of the produced content is a total crap. the industry tries to hide that by presenting you with pretty looking HD picture and you are buying it!

so what if one HD format has more exclusive content then the other if most of that content is just a bunch of mindles, idiotic crap?! c'mon people. don't you feel like you are getting more and more stupid with every additional movie you watch? or is to late already?

ahhh, whatever. keep stairing at your pretty HD panel if that's how little is needed to keep you entertained and happy. sad.

Sony BDP-S300 Blu-Ray Disc Player w/ 7 Free Movies Get Free Shipping with Site to Store
Item manufacturing: USA and/or Imported
See estimated arrival date
List Price: $499.98
Our Price: $469.54

Toshiba 1080i High Definition DVD Player, HD-A2 Get Free Shipping with Site to Store
Item manufacturing: USA and/or Imported
See estimated arrival date
List Price: $299.98
Our Price: $279.54

straight from walmart's website at half the price i'd go with hd dvd but i'm to cheap to even buy an upconvert dvd player so i won't be going hd for awhile

I haven't really test driven any of the formats, however I reckon that this is good so that a clear decision can be made based on what the market likes. Not everyone has this tech yet, so give it a few years or so and let the market see for themselves the pros and cons of each.

I like the fact that they support both formats. The good news is the HD-DVD versions will have a bunch of cool interactive features while the Blu-Ray versions have ..... the theatrical trailers.

Blu-Ray truly sucks for people who love movies. They can't even do PIP without putting two versions of the movie on a disc.

If you try out the HDi features of HD-DVD, you will be amazed. Of course you will have to wait for Blu-Ray 1.1 players for any cool features. Blu-Ray Java and 1.1 don't work as of yet.

BD is in big trouble with it's unfinished, rushed into production players and discs.

"Blu-Ray truly sucks for people who love movies. They can't even do PIP without putting two versions of the movie on a disc."

why would a movie lover need PIP at all? to watch 2 movies at once? pointless marketing feature.

I like the fact that Warner is truly allowing the consumer to make the decision on the format "Wars". I think it is almost comical to hear of places like Wal-Mart and Target selling a particular format exclusively. Even for the movie industry to select a format at this can only hurt their sales.

If I do decide on a format, it is sad to know that I am unable to build my own collection of movies based on the fact that is was not offered and therefore, why build one at all. It seems to me that the industry should see this one coming. Sales would seem to decline and ultimately hurt them in the long run.

The consumer is being duped and coerced into deciding which format is best rather than being offered a choice. The misinformation given in these forums from “we all know whom” only adds to the flavor. For now, I am happy with DVD until all the bugs and issues are worked out. Currently, I am in favor of the HD-DVD and what it is offering. Now, even a larger storage capacity.

http://www.betanews.com/...VD_After_All/1189716943

I also commend Warner for this decision.

Very good. I am agree WB.
bill@torreschina.com.cn

Only the most childishly superficial assessment of the sales numbers could concentrate on things like (a highly questionable) '2 - 1 sales advantage' and ignore the tiny size of this very immature market right now.

Costs enter into this as well and we know from what Vaicom/Paramount had to say that the costs associated with Blu-ray production nullify much of that supposed 'sales advantage'.

No-one on their right mind imagines Viacom/Paramount's costs were unique to them.

They are not blind to the coming $149 entry-level HD DVD players.......nor the fact that the Blu-ray 'entry level' PS3 or Sony S300 is the same price as a decent high-end Toshiba HD AX2.

Then there is the burden of the new 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' discs and hardware (still being "worked on" "very hard" to get them to work properly with 'profile 1.0' discs and hardware......according to Denon).
All additional costs with a huge question mark over the rate of return.
Even if 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' manages to appear at some point in 2008 (which is still very much open to question) it will be a long long time until there are sufficient numbers of the correct spec Blu-ray hardware units are out there generating income from those 'extras' that the movie studios believe they will provide.

Meantime HD DVD has fully functional advanced extras on offer on every machine they have made since day 1.

HD DVD now also offers the most movie content (actual available content, available exclusive content and potential catalogue).

.....and it is because of these facts that there are more than a few who claim this is not a matter of 'if' but 'when'.
There are several claims that the deal has already been done & that Warner will announce a decision to go HD DVD exclusive in the new year.

Everything you said is absolutely true. Wait until the BD fanboys find out that 1.1 is not a simple firmware update. They are leading people to think it is possible when 1.1 is finally finished, at which point, they will then let all the existing BD owners know they are f'ed.

I am going to get a nice combo player after the first of the year and ditch the PS3 and the Toshiba or stick them in other rooms.

Of course all gen 1 HD-DVD players are fully compatible with all HDi discs because they finished the spec and put it into all players from day one.

If its profitable for them I say let them do it. The market will dictate whether its profitable enough for them to continue making both formats.

even though imo the format war has shifted heavily towards the hd dvd camp, i think that this is a smart move by wbvh. in reality, nothing has been decided yet as much as we all would like it to be, especially for those of us who haven't adopted yet. and really, what do they have to lose by going format-exclusive at this point?

i have encouraged people to go buy the hd dvd player instead of blu-ray because of current trends in the market. personally, i'm going to hold off a little bit longer before deciding.

"even though imo the format war has shifted heavily towards the hd dvd camp"

Nonsense.

If you want to talk Media Sales:[/b]

Blu-Ray is outselling HD DVD over 2:1 in North America, and 3:1 in Europe and Asia is almost totally Blu-Ray.

[b]If you want to talk Hardware Sales:[/b]

Blu-Ray is close to 5 million player sold, HD DVD just over 1/4 of a million.

[b]If you want to talk Stuios:[/b]

Blu-Ray has more Hollywood studio backing than HD DVD, and more studio exclusives, even after the Paramount dirty deal.

[b]If you want to talk hardware manufacturer backing:

Blu-Ray has hardware on the shelves right now from at least 9 manufacturers, with more due before the holiday season. HD DVD has just Toshiba and a couple of rebadged units.

Tell me know the war has shifted?

And the hardware will be obsolete when the new 1.1 and then 2 profiles come out. That is great news for teh customers. Once the public gets burned again by Sony we'll see what you have to say then. Then they will turn on locking disks to machine to convince the remaining loyalists that Sony has their best interst in mind. Blu-ray has way to many grey areas that can and will screw the public it is scary. But then again you are get paid to say the stuff that you do. Kind of like Sony paid off Disney and the stock deal with someone else. Oh yeah that doesn't count.

Actually your wrong... Sales from Sept 3rd HD-DVD sales were 7:1 . You also wrong about Hollywood Studios.. HD-DVD now has 1 more then Blu-Ray.

I have no idea where your getting your data - but your completely wrong.. HD-DVD is crushing Blu-Ray now.

hd dvd will have a $299 player on the market at the end of the year. blu-ray will not.

the new hd dvd disc is fairly backwards compatible. the blu-ray is not.

hd dvd, for whatever reason, convinced a studio to switch from supporting both to supporting one. sony has _considerably_ more money to throw at studios that supported both formats and has not convinced any to switch yet.

hd dvd disc are documented to have a failure rate less than blu-ray and cost much less.

hd dvd player sales are actual hd dvd players. blu-ray players are made up mostly of the ps3, and that's a game console, a console that isn't doing very well compared to its predessor. this is coming from a sony "fanboy": i have two playstations, two ps2s, several sony walkmans, a sony boombox, the family has a sony full stereo system and until recently owned a sony television. we would have been one of the ps3 adopters, but it is too expensive and i'm not going to touch a ps3 until the price drops significantly.

considering that there are, acording to your numbers, 20 times as many blu-ray capable players out there than there are hd dvd players, a 2:1 ratio is pretty good. hd dvd is not being blown out by any stretch of the imagination.

in spite of the fact that blu-ray has the full monetary and technical support of a movie studio and hardware company (which also happens to be the same company) hd dvd is still around two years later. that is a big indictment of blu-ray itself. if blu-ray was this killer format you are trying to make it out to be, sony could have easily killed it off by now and hasn't done it yet.

i have no dog in this fight by the way. if blu-ray does something spectacular in the near future, i can and probably will change my mind.

"I have no idea where your getting your data"

He doesn't get it from anywhere, he just makes it up as he goes along. Haven't you seen him before in every HD-DVD/BD related thread? All he does is lurk/troll and post made up stuff to try and trick people into thinking Sony and BD are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Too bad it's not working. 99% of people see right through it. The guy has become a pretty big joke around here. :)

ROFL nonsense? He said in HIS ****ing OPINION.

You can't tell him his opinion is wrong, its what he believes, kind of like how you believe Sony could never do anything wrong and is king of everything.

If you want to talk price of manufacturing, Blu-Ray is astronomical, about 10% of all discs are actually useable.

You're an idiot Dave Peterson (Steve / Benjamin / Dave's real name). I think I'll drop all your personal info on some pirating site where hackers will own your PC in about 5 minutes.

Please show us the 7:1 HD DVD lead, I can't wait to see this one...

If you want to talk Stuios:

Blu-Ray has more Hollywood studio backing than HD DVD, and more studio exclusives, even after the Paramount dirty deal."[/i]

- Why don't you quit it with your laughably pathetic attempts at avoiding the truth, huh?

You're either lying - or such an ill-informed blinkered f*cking idiot fanboy to know the truth about this.[/b]
Which is it?

Studio support is currently split as follows:

HD DVD Exclusive:
- Universal
- Paramount
- Dreamworks
- Studio Canal
- Weinstein

Dual Format:
- Warner
- New Line
- HBO
- BBC/2Entertain

BluRay Exclusive:
- Fox
- MGM
- Lionsgate
- BV/Disney
- Sony

Try talking about the issue that counts, how
[b]HD DVD has more available content and more exclusive content[/b] than Blu-ray.

Here's how, these are facts....
and I've included those little links you Blu-ray shills love so much here -

(and bear in mind these numbers apply in the USA & they have yet to remove the Viacom/Paramount numbers)

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://www.hddvdstats.com/index.php

Total available content -

Blu-ray 317

HD DVD 308

Total available exclusive content -

Blu-ray 191

HD DVD 181

[b]Then remove from the Blu-ray total the number of supposedly 'exclusive Blu-ray titles' which are nothing of the sort and which can be sourced on HD DVD internationally cos HD DVD is region-free everytime [/b]

See here - http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109

and here - http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960

(Over 60 titles, but call it 60 for ease of calculation)

This leaves us with -

Blu-ray genuinely exclusive titles = 131

HD DVD genuinely exclusive titles = 181.

(I have heard of 1 HD DVD exclusive available in Japan on Blu-ray - but it could have been photo-shopped, nothing like 60+ tho)

[b]HD DVD has more exclusive content, by far[/b]

Then add those same 60 titles to the total number of titles available to HD DVD and
remove the 30 Paramount movies Blu-ray no longer has and the 3 Dreamworks titles
and we are left with -

Blu-ray available content = 284

HD DVD available content = 368.

[b]HD DVD has more available content, by far[/b]

Stop trying to play stupid sad little pathetic number games with the number of studios - 'number of studios', ffs how ludicrous can you get - you're wrong on that anyways as has been pointed out.

[b]The real point is content[/b].

Actual available and exclusive [b]content[/b] and by that measure HD DVD is clearly far ahead
(and with a further 120+ HD DVD movies just announced by Viacome/Paramount as they really start to ramp up production that can only grow).

.....and given the major [b]and[/b] smaller independent studios using HD DVD (cos the costs are lower and replication is available as opposed to being choked with short supply & low availability with BD)
[b]HD DVD also has the largest potential catalogue.

These are the facts that count -
[i]HD DVD offers image and audio quality 2nd to none,
HD DVD has the most content,
HD DVD has the most exclusive content,
HD DVD has the most potential content,
HD DVD offers a proper range of spec & prices,
HD DVD has the lowest entry-level prices,
HD DVD has fully functioning advanced features,
HD DVD has a complete and functioning spec and
HD DVD's 'high end' players (ie the Toshiba HD XA2) are the same price as the under spec'd absolescent Blu-ray entry level players.

......oh, and lest we forget, HD DVD does not have the additional DRM sh*te that Blu-ray is attempting to foist on people

.....and HD DVD is not entirely dependent on a f*cking game console.

"hd dvd will have a $299 player on the market at the end of the year. blu-ray will not"

- Even better, it'll have an official price of $199 but will retail @ $149.

The Toshiba's are already almost $200 right now - they're between $210/$220.

Then the Shinco HD DVD player arrives next spring with production costs slashed by the huge production numbers of their China-only CH-DVD (which are indentical except for a firmware & a logo on the case).
That's expected to be the first $100 HD DVD player.

Blu-ray simply cannot compete.

"If you want to talk Media Sales:
Blu-Ray is outselling HD DVD over 2:1 in North America, and 3:1 in Europe and Asia is almost totally Blu-Ray."

Wasn't that ratio conveniently 4:1 a while back? Seems to me like HD-DVD is catching up quick.

"If you want to talk Hardware Sales:
Blu-Ray is close to 5 million player sold, HD DVD just over 1/4 of a million."

I somehow doubt that takes into account the HD-DVD drive for the 360. How convenient for you.

"If you want to talk Stuios:
Blu-Ray has more Hollywood studio backing than HD DVD, and more studio exclusives, even after the Paramount dirty deal."

Non of which I like enough to buy. I'll be fine with Transformers in 3 months though.

"If you want to talk hardware manufacturer backing:
Blu-Ray has hardware on the shelves right now from at least 9 manufacturers, with more due before the holiday season. HD DVD has just Toshiba and a couple of rebadged units."

Did they add another model for the PS3 already?

"Tell me know the war has shifted?"

It was dominated by Sony 4-5 months ago the ratios alone tell the tale. But the ratios are starting to even out. I'd say HD-DVD has no more than 8 months to over pass Sony.

"Stuios"

That's funny!

provide link please

There is no 7:1 link, it's crap, like most of Hocuspokus comments.

For example, he is lame enough to count Paramount and Dreamworks are seperate companies, despite them being the same.

He also includes StudioCanal, despite them releasing Blu-Ray movies in Europe (remember the post about 1 Disney title on HD DVD due to local licencing? Well he now twists it the other way, and IGNORES local licencing).

He also takes the Paramount titles available on Blu-Ray off the list, but they have not been withdrawn from sale, so existing Paramount Blu-Ray titles are still Paramamount Blu-Ray titles.

Lastly, Paramount will be back to Blu-Ray in 18 months anyway, as by then HD DVD will be long forgotten.

"Lastly, Paramount will be back to Blu-Ray in 18 months anyway, as by then HD DVD will be long forgotten"

Pretty bold claim, i take it your refering to some new format that noone knows about coming out and sweeping hddvd & blu-ray off its feet? Because numbers sure dont show anything on the current market pushing hddvd out. Blu-ray isnt going to be pushing anything out when its droped from a 5:1 lead to a 2:1 current. Last I saw sddvd was still vastly selling better than any other format.

Blu-Ray has never had a 5:1 lead.

Last year, it was 2:1 in HD DVD favor.

This year, globally it's 3:1 in Blu-Ray favor.

Ah yes your right, i was mixed up with hardware sales dropping. Apologies.

Still you cant argue im not right about market penetration. Blu ray simple doesnt have anywhere near enough, its VERY early days.

"There is no 7:1 link, it's crap, like most of Hocuspokus comments."[/i]

- I did not make the 7:1 claim, you blind moron[/b].

[i]"For example, he is lame enough to count Paramount and Dreamworks are seperate companies, despite them being the same."[/i]

- [b]That's because they are separate studios, idiot[/b].
They may be in the same group but they are separate studios.

.....but if you want to play that sort of stupid number games then I really ought to have mentioned (separately) on the HD DVD side - Paramount Vantage, Nickelodeon Movies and MTV Films and movies from Dreamworks Animation as well as Viacom/Paramount & Dreamworks.

You'll note the Blu-ray stats site (like everyone else - except you desperately trying to downplay this and play up a - ridiculously laughable - 'studio count') says so.

[i]"He also includes StudioCanal, despite them releasing Blu-Ray movies in Europe"[/i]

- OK, you go off to the Studio Canal site and tell us the Blu-ray movies that are actually out and available right now.
[b]Studio Canal are supposed to be format neutral but they have only released actual content on HD DVD so far.[/b]

There's talk of 3 French Blu-ray movies coming but they are not out yet; this is why I have not mentioned SC in the listing cos these claims have been made for some time with nothing actually appearing

(although once again the Blu-ray side couldn't even tell the truth on this one and recently claimed SC were Blu-ray exclusive).

[i]"(remember the post about 1 Disney title on HD DVD due to local licencing? Well he now twists it the other way, and IGNORES local licencing)."[/i]

- OK Einstein, go for it.
The floor is yours, let's see how many you guys have got.

[b]Show us where and how many 'local licencing' deals for Blu-ray balance out anything like the 60+ titles HD DVD has that are supposedly 'Blu-ray exclusive'.[/b]

[i]"He also takes the Paramount titles available on Blu-Ray off the list, but they have not been withdrawn from sale, so existing Paramount Blu-Ray titles are still Paramamount Blu-Ray titles."[/i]

- [b]Paramount stopped all Blu-ray movie disc production when they dumped Blu-ray.[/b]
They even canned 'Blades of Glory' even tho a few cases had already hit the shops.

Sorry to disillusion you but Blu-ray disc production is not so huge that there is an enormous stock that will be available for any length of time.

We'll also be having to add over 100 new movies to the HD DVD total before the year's out as Viacom/Paramount get stuck in to supporting HD DVD. ;) :P

[b]This is an especially pathetic argument.
The Paramount production is over.
It is perfectly legitimate to remove those titles from the BD side of the equation[/b].
Fool.

[i]"Lastly, Paramount will be back to Blu-Ray in 18 months anyway, as by then HD DVD will be long forgotten."

- Pathetic.

[b]If the deal is for only 18mths then, go ahead, lets see you back up your claims & prove it if you 'know' this so well[/b].

.....and when I say 'prove' I mean prove with actual evidence not hearsay or the whining of some self-styled ridiculous blu-ray 'insider' shill pretending they have special secret 'insider' knowledge

(you know the kind, the sort of lying ar*eholes who have been lying to as many gullible members of the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub as they can about how Universal were on the verge of going format neutral since Jan 2007).

You might like to consider that even if there had been a faint glimmer of hope for this happening the trashing the Blu-ray execs & fanclub handed out to Paramount after they moved has ensured you're just howling at the moon on this one.

You really are a ludicrously tragic cretinous shill.

Still too embarrassed & ashamed to come in on your own name here, eh?

......and of course you'll back-up nothing.
Run away Dave, Steve, Ray, Milkmaid or whoever the f*ck you're supposed to be today.

Idiot liar.

[b]HD DVD offers the most content
(available, exclusive and potential)

"HD DVD offers the most content "

Sure it does... http://i17.tinypic.com/2vv115t.jpg

"Sure it does"

- How pathetic is that?

You have run away from every point I made and (even more laughably) you can't even back up a single point you made yourself when challenged.

Instead now rely on a ridiculous little picture you took (and first posted here under another name).

You really are a laughing stock.

All you can say to that is a picture that shows a particular stores hd stock?

"All you can say to that is...."

- No surprises there, Setian.

They have nothing left and simply resort to infantile and misleading quips.

How their 'mighty' format has fallen, huh?

Heres one i took at my local biccamera store
http://i17.tinypic.com/6fsg0w8.jpg
Very nice blu ray display you might say? There was a hd dvd one across from it.
Equally as impressive. Theres no eye catching demostrations setup in Nagoya either for the two new formats.
sddvd however, half a blood floor full of them

You need a new picture, you have used the same ONE picture over and over.

How about this one?

http://img122.imageshack...p?image=image037qs3.jpg

London's Virgin Megastore in Picadilly.

How about this one?

http://img385.imageshack...hp?image=2ivcgttte5.jpg

London HMV is Trocadero.

Anyone mentioned that Target is expanding their Blu-Ray section? Blockbuster ONLY sell/rent Blu-Ray, BJ's are also Blu-Ray only.

Anyone that honestly thinks HD DVD offers more choice is totally deluded.

"How about this one?"[/i]

- LMAO.

Yeah, cos they have all the HD DVD catalogue on view there, huh?!
FFS, what a pathetic moron.

Personally speaking I have never bought an HD DVD movie in a walk-in store, I always have bought them on-line.
I know I am far from alone in that.

Your ludicrous collection of a few pics proves nothing but you're sad enough to think that they disprove the verifiable data I posted?!

Laughable, utterly laughable.

[i]"Anyone that honestly thinks HD DVD offers more choice is totally deluded."

- No.
Anyone who seriously imagines flat-out lying about this in the face of provable fact is the deluded one.

You really are in need of help, idiot.

......but continue to run away and make these idiotic & laughable posts if you like.
You're the f*ckwit clearly and obviously (to any fair minded person looking on) that is always in making several baseless assertions and always unable to back them up with anything like actual 'evidence' or proof.

Funniest of all......you really are doing far more harm to 'your cause' than any of the rest of us ever could.

......and still too ashamed to come back with use your regular name here then, huh?
You're a laughing stock, oaf.

lol ok.. post some more pictures of stores HD stock... your not too bright are you?

"If the consumer continues to support both formats, the industry will as well..."

That's lame. It's the industry's fault there are two formats to begin with. The consumer is only supporting two formats because the industry was too stubborn to agree on one (as usual). They're trying to justify their indecisiveness by transferring the burden onto the consumer's shoulders.

The sooner they decide to go HD DVD-exclusive the better... and we can finally be rid of yet another proprietary Sony-ruled format. It will take more than Sony and Disney to keep Blu-ray's head above water if (or when) that happens.

Keep it on Sony's own consoles where it belongs.

err... isn't this confusing? They say they'll support whatever consumers support, and consumers normally act the same way, so it's an endless loop...

Odd behaviour causes this new gen... ;)

i don't think so.

seen any new psp movies lately?

reguarding this issue, say one format has a player that was significantly cheaper than the other. the consumers would buy that player and buy that format more than the other. that's why i think this is a good strategy right now. both players are pretty much the same price. we will really see what these studios will do when one format has a cheaper player than the other.