Whistleblower: AT&T Maintained a 'Secret Room' for the NSA

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

November 8, 2007, 4:52 PM

Bringing his claims to Capitol Hill for the first time, former AT&T network technician Mark Klein appeared yesterday at a press conference to reiterate his astonishing claim: AT&T operated a 24 x 48-foot room in one of its network operations centers in San Francisco, where Klein discovered his employer was cooperating with the National Security Agency in the monitoring of all Internet traffic over a major backbone line.

"I have first-hand knowledge of the clandestine collaboration between one giant telecommunications company, AT&T, and the National Security Agency to facilitate the most comprehensive illegal domestic spying program in history," Klein remarked in his press conference yesterday.

Klein's allegations have been part of an ongoing class-action suit against AT&T since January 2006, funded by the Electronic Frontier Foundation. While he was not able to witness everyday goings-on in the "Secure Room," as an engineer, Klein was privy to how the room was wired. In a June 8 sworn deposition entered into evidence in this case, he described what he saw.

In January 2003, Klein was invited to tour the Folsom Street Facility of what was then known as SBC Communications. There he saw for the first time Room 641A, categorized as the "SG3 Secure Room." That fall, when he was hired to work at the facility, he noted that an NSA agent was interviewing field support specialists for clearance to be able to work in the Secure Room.

"To my knowledge, only employees cleared by the NSA were permitted to enter the SG3 Secure Room," Klein stated in his June deposition (PDF available here). "To gain entry to the SG3 Secure Room required both a physical key for the cylinder lock and a combination code number to be entered into an electronic keypad on the door. To my knowledge, only [two Field Support Specialists] had both the key and the combination code." But Klein, who often worked at Folsom alone, had keys to every other door except SG3.

As part of his job there, Klein installed new circuits to a fiberoptic "splitter cabinet," whose sole purpose, diagrams entered into evidence show, was to duplicate WorldNet service Internet traffic into SG3. The existence of this splitter suggests that the NSA had access to all the traffic on that circuit.

Klein was scheduled to appear on Capitol Hill again today, to appear as a witness before the Senate Judiciary Committee. There, he expected a friendly audience before Chairman Patrick Leahy (D - Vt.), who opposes efforts by the Bush administration and Congressional Republicans to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to grant immunity to telecom companies like AT&T, from prosecution for surveillance acts. Such an immunity grant would conceivably result in the dismissal of cases including Klein's.

While BetaNews had planned to cover Klein's remarks on Capitol Hill today, in a strange turn of events, the audio feed for the Senate Judiciary conference room was malfunctioning. A notice to that effect was posted to Web sites that had planned to carry the feed live. Transcripts or recordings of today's proceedings may yet be made available.

In the meantime, a federal judge in California moved yesterday to block AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint from destroying documents that may be subpoenaed into evidence in this case.

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By SinisterMinister

edited Nov 25, 2007 - 3:12 AM

The 'shocking revelation' would be that the NSA were NOT! monitoring the internet. This is now the preferred place to undertake criminal activity. The actual monitoring is done by the computers themselves, looking for 'key words' etc. It may be sad that the old days of so-called 'Privacy' are long gone, but with the lives of servicemen and citizens in mortal danger 24/7/365, I personally do not see any alternative policy. Blindfolding the 'Watchmen' is not a viable option! The fact that access to this mysterious Room 'SG3' was restricted to just two people, would suggest a very high level of 'Oversight'. That a sensible person would interpret as 'Guarding' privacy! by allowing only highly screened personel anywhere near the automated computers. Think for a moment; "If there were hundreds of employees allowed access, how would that safeguard 'Privacy'!?!"

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By jpurry

posted Nov 25, 2007 - 9:57 AM

Who guards the guards though???

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By jpurry

edited Nov 18, 2007 - 5:24 PM

Montagp-You bet I have heard of Ron Paul! He is our only way out! It is time and He is our answer!!!
I pray he does! The media is owned by the very people we need to get out of office. Look at the reporting on 9/11. They forgot to tell the people the towers were blown before the planes ever hit them. My father was an Air Force pilot and the stats aren't adding up!

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By Just Jack

posted Nov 18, 2007 - 12:01 PM

I for one really hope Paul wins.

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By montagp

posted Nov 18, 2007 - 1:10 PM

I think most Americans agree. It's downright shameful the way the media is ignoring him. By CNN's own phone-in polls Ron Paul has been clearly winning the debates, yet they still refuse to take him seriously. The "independent" press is hijacking our democracy.

Remember to donate money to Ron Paul on December 16th.
www.teaparty07.com

Lets try and wake the media up once and for all.

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By Just Jack

posted Nov 19, 2007 - 10:19 AM

All 53 people in my office have committed to donate.

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By rich_li_ny

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 9:33 AM

If you want my honest opinion.. I think this guy Klein should be executed!

How many people did he know that died in the 9/11 attacks on our country? If he did know anyone that died in the tragedy of 9/11 he probably wouldn't care anyway.

We have a government that is doing there best to sort out problems and make our home land a safer place and then we have an animal like Klein dancing around like a complete a****** blabbing things he shouldnt even consider speaking about.

I hope the son of a b**** gets what he deserves for all of this!!

Since Mr Klein enjoys being in the spot lite so much
maybe we should concentrate our efforts in finding out where this son of a b**** lives, and his daily movemets After all attention is attention and he shouldn't mind it one bit. Maybe that's just the kind of attention he needs.

Klein .. If you mom was getting cooked in a concentration camp. Would you support the Nazis?
You probably would if it meant a minute of fame!

While some of us are overseas taking bullets, it literally blows my mind that this a****** so proudly blabs things that undermine the security of our nation.

If Mr klien is so unhappy with the way we gather information about terrorist organizations, I know couple neighborhoods where he may find life a little better for him in the middle east.

In fact I wouldn't mind wearing him as my bullet proof vest. Klien you Anti American bas****.. I hope you get yours in the end!!!

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By jpurry

posted Nov 16, 2007 - 7:25 AM

Wow, showing so much fear! Afraid the people might learn the truth? or maybe afraid you don't really know what the truth is!

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By montagp

posted Nov 13, 2007 - 10:02 PM

I think it's natural for people to fear death. But we won't lift a finger to prevent death unless there is a convenient villian so we can get angry.

I didn't know anyone personally who died in the 9/11 attacks.
My brother died many years ago in a traffic accident.
So far in this century, roughly 3,000 people have died in terrorist attacks in this country.
So far in this century, roughly 330,000 people have died in traffic accidents in this country.

On both a personal and National level, we have to get past this anger towards 9/11. It was a sad day, but it should not define this country's future. We'll only solve the real problems through rational thinking, and anger impedes rational thought.

www.teaparty07.com

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By Just Jack

edited Nov 13, 2007 - 10:47 AM

I know its easy to go "Archie Bunker" on this stuff... "My country love it or leave it".

But really consider the long view. I lost family in the towers, I'm still not willing to give up my rights as a result. I'm not will to loose the freedoms and ideals that once made this country great in order to get some visceral short term payback.

Some of the most shameful periods of US history have revolved around this type of short sighted thinking. Remember when we rounded up the Japanese for the terrible crime of being Japanese? Remember when we blackballed and jailed innocent American who's only crime was that they had different political beliefs, beliefs protected under the constitution but vilified under Senator McCarthy? Remember when we started spying on our own people in direct violation of our 4th amendment rights? Or when we started paying other countries to perform illegal act of torture based interrogation on our behalf? Oh wait we are doing that right now aren't we?

I am not a paralyzed liberal. I want to kill the bad guys as well, But I don't want to kill the future rights of my son and daughter in the process. It is not OK to become a barbarian to beat a barbarian, we are better than that.

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By Aires

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 8:24 AM

Why haven't these replies below been deleted? Aren't there any monderators here anymore?? Disgusting.

This is an interesting news story no doubt, but that's all it should've been - a news story. This should not have been an article up for debate as the replies below prove.

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By Just Jack

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 9:55 AM

Your absolutely right. Did anyone notice that this issue (NSA / Telco) was discussed on Bill Maher this weekend? I found it ironic that the in the middle of the discussion a crank in the audience disrupted the dialog and had to be forcibly removed.

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By extremely well

posted Nov 12, 2007 - 8:55 AM

Be assured that if ANY of my words gets deleted, I will NEVER share my brilliance with you, the common ppl ;)

Enjoy it while it lasts.

Oh, BTW, Freedom of Speech -- ever heard of it? ;) Somewhat obscure principle... look it up.

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By Aires

posted Nov 12, 2007 - 9:08 AM

Yeah and I have the freedom not to listen to your crap which I have to wade through to read the other stuff that isn't.

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By extremely well

posted Nov 12, 2007 - 9:17 AM

For some reason, seeing you were so "disgusted" by my sad truths of life, it's pretty obvious you read each and every of my word, and you'll continue to do so out of curiosity. Some of it will sink in, as it always does when I talk to anyone about anything...

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By Just Jack

posted Nov 12, 2007 - 10:02 AM

Hate to be repetitive but you need to stop your rants, stop hijacking this post with your self serving nonsense. It is supposed to be about "The Issue Presented" not "Your Issues Presented".

Meglomainia - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Really Seek Help.

Score: 0

By Aires

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 11:32 AM

You really are an megalomaniac fool to believe I read each and every word of what you wrote. And you have really spoiled this thread with your inane prejudiced sh!te.

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 11, 2007 - 4:24 PM

And about morality...

jeffhas: "No fortunately I have a life and I have to get back to it. What points are you trying to make? You say the NSA is above the law - yet you show now proof. That the USA uses torture - maybe, but that doesn't make it right or legal. We're the USA, we're supposed to be better than some third rate banana republic that can't hold it's country together without a barrel of a gun."

Neither you nor I can show CLEAR proof that the NSA is above or below the law. My point is that the NSA SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW (and I believe it IS) as long as its critical decisions are made by a POLITICALLY DIVERSIFIED (or A-politicl) body of high court judges and army generals. I don't trust the president nor congress to make those critical decisions. Neither of them need to know detailed things that the NSA must know to protect the country longterm.

And again, the use of torture, if proven effective in saving American lives, is fully justified. The use of WMD is also justified, just as IT WAS FULLY JUSTIFIED IN 1945. The only trick is (AGAIN) to know when exactly you can use it with the correct effect (subdue your enemy without bringing the entire world to an end). The next world war (whenever it happens) will prove this point. The US will be the first (AGAIN) to use WMD and will take it a step further & threaten "innocent" countries to become allies or suffer WMD wrath immediately. The US will further attack "innocent" bystanders (countries not interested in joining the conflict) if they do NOT become allies. It's either you are WITH US or YOU HURT/ENDANGER OUR LIVES. Now THAT'S gonna give your oh-so-sensitive moral watch a few lickin's...

I'll translate this obvious moral lesson into a story:
You are thrown into a big cage with a hungry tiger and you are promised that if you survive the next 48 hours you will be set free. You have a knife in your hand and you are a very strong man. There are ten weaker guys hiding inside a big cabinet in the corner of the cage, waiting for the tiger to eat you so he won't be hungry and leave them alone (for now). You (the strong guy) knock on the cabinet and inform them they must come out and help you fight the tiger or you will kill them one by one. They refuse. You pull one of them forcefully (and them being cowards, do nothing about it) and you kill him. The end of the story is irrelevant: whether they stayed cowards and got killed one by one, whether they joined you to fight the tiger, or whether they all joined the tiger/themselves and tried/successfully to kill you. The point is whether or not your killing of a weak guy was justified. It clearly IS JUSTIFIED BY ANY SANE DEFINITION OF MORALITY.

Now...
It's very naive to believe that anyone will "hold back" from using WMD forever, hence it's smarter to strategically plan ahead usage of WMD RIGHT NOW already (which I'm sure is getting done...)

Though I believe Albert Einstein was wrong. WW4 will not be fought with sticks and stones, simply because even if all WMD were employed in WW3, there will still be many many cities around the world left untouched which will become the new world centers. The world is a very big place...

And even if every single modern city was to be wiped, obviously the books in many many libraries will remain, will be discovered, re-read, and civilization will re-start just from where it "stopped" after a hundred year "hiccup". Human species progress cannot be stopped and in the absolute worst case will only be a few generations "in delay" from reaching whatever goal it is we're reaching without even knowing what it is (yet)...

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By Just Jack

posted Nov 12, 2007 - 7:07 AM

Meglomainia - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Really Seek Help.

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 9:02 AM

Hehehehehehehe highly intelligent ppl can actually pick up humor/sarcasm from an info feed.

Yes, I am superior in many regards to most people, provably by any standardized test you can think of, including the "test of life" AKA "the end result".

But no, I cannot really predict the future nor do I have total power nor want total power. I leave that to the NSA... ;)

My comments are irresistible to most people to read, just as I am irresistible to most of the fair sex (for many..many reasons that have nothing to do with this intellectual discussion)... You either believe it or not. Won't change facts...

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By otis30223

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 12:11 PM

Now we know why SBC\AT&T\Bellsouth has gotten such favorable treatment from the FCC, sound like they got a pass to swallow large chunks of the telecommunications industry to facilatate the NSA spy operation.

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By steverose

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 2:02 PM

This system was in place at the time of 9/11 and other terrorist events, and didn't stop them.

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By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:49 PM

It stopped numerous attempted terrorist attacks in the USA... You really don't think Bin Ladin just "gave up" in 2001...right?

And no, it will not prevent every single terrorist attack. That doesn't mean it's useless, just like a median on the highway doesn't prevent the occasional 4x4 to jump over the fence and still cause a mass accident. It's called "BEST EFFORT ATTEMPT".

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By montagp

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 6:24 PM

Are you implying that Bin Laden is dead? Do you think our little excursion in Afghanistan actually worked?

The Bush administration, in their infinite wisdom, decided that it was inneficient to rely on the CIA to gather intel, pass it along to the DOD, and then let the DOD strike the target. Sounds good. So they took the CIA out of their element, and sent them into Afghanistan with orders to search and destroy. Just as the mission was about to succeed, the CIA and DOD got into a pissing match about who should get the glory for the kill. You see, human nature takes over. If Bin Laden is killed, someone's gonna write a book and brag about their hard work. So should Rumsfeld get the book deal? or maybe Tenet? Rumsfeld won the pissing match and this is when we all saw the military strike in Afghanistan on TV. Of course, by the time it all happened Bin Laden had escaped.

So you can feel comfortable in your delusion that our government efficiently protects us, but it simply isn't true. We are all human. Even when fighting terrorists, there will be pissing matches for the glory. This is why government must be smaller, to minimize this effect.

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By extremely well

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 6:46 PM

I do believe Bin Ladin is dead, or sufficiently incapacitated (physically or organizationally). Any group of terrorists who claim to be "Al Kaida" these days have absolutely no connection with Bin Ladin -- they just like the brand name...

What I was saying is that NSA's action have proven extremely effective in the last 6 years.

I don't think if Bin Ladin is dead we're ever gonna see the body, just like we're not gonna see bodies of hundreds of his people buried underground in the deathhole they dug for themselves in the caves of Tora Bora. A thermobaric bomb will do that to ya ;)

I'm not so sure about the illusion or "delusion" of being protected by our government and what it has to do with pissing matches for glory. It's VERY REAL that no 9-11 #2 has occured in the USA from 2002-2007... I call that a TRACK RECORD. It may not last forever, but it's a pretty damn good track record for a nation at war with suicidal, dirty-playing "terrorists"+nations.

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By montagp

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 7:08 PM

I'm sorry, but you're officially an idiot. You believe everything Bush says. Even he's smart enough not to believe what he's saying, he's simply too arrogant to admit a mistake.

No major terrorist attack on US soil from 2002-2007, that's a TRACK RECORD????

How about no major terrorist attack on US soil from 1492-2000??? Is that a track record long enough for you?

They keep talking about foiled terrorist plots because they want to keep you scared and they want you to think they are using your tax dollars wisely. The fact is that after proper investigations are actually completed, there hasn't been a single conviction or arrest. They are all false. But that usually isn't concluded until months or years later when the media has forgotten. But wait, I'm sorry, we have a free press so you would have heard about that.

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By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 7:15 PM

Hahahahahaha so you are saying the terrorists have simply given up on trying to attack. And you're calling ME the idiot. hahahahahahaha

Thank God that regardless of our little debate here, the NSA will continue doing what it's doing, this Klein guy will soon be forgotten, congress isn't gonna do CRAP about this "revelation", and we'll all continue living our merry life -- each with their own unique belief-set. ;)

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By jpurry

posted Nov 11, 2007 - 10:32 AM

What terrorists, Bush? Cheney? Citibank?

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By extremely well

posted Nov 11, 2007 - 2:24 PM

Ah, you shall be SOOO disappointed when the US goes to war with Iran under a Democrat president... Thank God it's gonna happen regardless of who is (or rather thinks they are) "in power".

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By montagp

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 7:45 PM

Was this a debate? I'd call it a public flogging.

But seriously, the goodness left in this country is that we are each allowed to live our lives with different belief sets. You are right about that.

Before I go, if you're asking me whether or not terrorists have given up, I say this:

I don't personally know any terrorist currently planning an attack on the United States. Do you? (remember, your friends at the NSA are listening...)

ZING!!
I WIN

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By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 7:58 PM

Yes I do know one and I feel I know him personally! He seems American/patriot but tries hard to convince everyone that the US must leave all foreign land, and tries to plant this seed in the minds of everyone he talks to that perhaps the terrorists weren't such bad evil people. He goes online by multiple nicks trying to make it seem as if his opinion is the majority's opinion (or an acceptable opinion). Maybe you know him, his online name is: montagp

hehehehehehehehe
ZING BLING
(who da winna' now! ;) ) hehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

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By broadway_rose

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 2:08 PM

May I introduce the subject entitled "May I?" For those of you that don't know about the "game" - well, "May I" was played this way, about 65 years ago. One child was designated "IT" meaning the child had to stand up against a tree with his or her back facing the line-up of kids waiting to play the game. The child on line would ask the "IT child" "May I take 2 Giant Steps" to which the "IT Child" would either say "YES you may, or NO, you may not." Generally, the "IT child always peeked" which was an early form of being "sneaky." That was 65 years ago - however, the kids never paid any attention to the "peeking." It was a game, a way of life. So, fast forward to today, and I for one (whether telephone/internet surveillance is constitutional or unconstitutional) don't care one bit if my internet browsing, email activity and telephone usage is monitored or not. I've got nothing to hide, and surely, the NSA and any cooperating telecommunications entity isn't keeping track of my usage of 4 letter curse words. Obviously this is all meant to target those among us in the USA and elsewhere that may have a violent agenda, leading towards a repeat of 9-11. In fact, I'd be first on line to agree to full ltime surveillance of my browsing, email and telephone usage. What's the big deal? The fact that the "cover was blown" well that uncovers a "secret plan" which again, I couldn't care less about, however, some people want everyhing in their lives to be private. Surely, looking back at my life, and my ZERO affiliation with terrorists, anarchists, evil doers, wierdos, and assorted dirt bags, not to forget about Low Lifes, and the occasional Scum-Bag, I've got nothing to worry about, so, listen in, if you want to listen in - I'll even make coffee. I have children and grandchildren that will hopefully survive me, when my time is up. I don't want my kin, my loved ones to ever again go through what we all experienced 6 years ago, so, while I'm making ends meet, budgetwise, I'll kick in $10.00 a year to help fund this type of surveillance. Seriously - I've got nothing to hide and speaking for myelf, it's comforting to know that my government has "got my back." Thank you for this opportunity to Comment and have a great weekend.

Score: 0

By montagp

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 4:18 PM

extremely well,

Thank you for your passion on this topic. The real core of many problems in American politics is apathy on the part of its citizens. The only way we can progress as a society is through open discussion and debate.

I think you are a little confused on the role of the NSA however.

"The National Security Agency/Central Security Service is America’s cryptologic organization. It coordinates, directs, and performs highly specialized activities to protect U.S. government information systems and produce foreign signals intelligence information. A high technology organization, NSA is on the frontiers of communications and data processing. It is also one of the most important centers of foreign language analysis and research within the government."

The NSA's role is analytical. Most NSA employees are mathematicians, linguists, scientists, etc. If you believe the NSA is murdering American citizens then you are more paranoid than myself.

As for the domestic spying, this country was founded upon Liberty. Citizens have certain unalienable rights and the Constitution was written to LIMIT government. The Founders were intelligent enough to see a large federal government trampling its citizens' rights if they did not strictly forbid it from happening.

It's not that the federal government is intentionally destroying us. They are doing what they think is right. Unfortunately, human nature is what it is. A large federal government trying to perform every security service imaginable for its citizens simply cannot work.

The Founders knew this and left for us the Constitution. The fact is the blame resides with us, the citizens, for failing to enforce the Constitution and control our government. We do have the power.

The reason domestic spying cannot be tolerated is quite simple. Who is to determine the purpose of the spying? Our government has been too scared since 9/11 and has used The War On Terror to justify everything. They have encouraged you to believe that Terrorists are evil people and they are out to get you. They have encouraged you to believe that we must give up Liberty to stop terrorism.

Fast forward 20 years. The plan worked. All terrorists are dead. Our country is secure. Who's next? Maybe the "moral elite" decides that we should spy on gays and secretly kill them, since homosexuality is a sin. Maybe the "political elite" are afraid of a Libertarian uprise and spy on outspoken individuals and kill them. Maybe the "corporate elite" use their connections to spy on their competition and gain unfair advantage in the marketplace.

Now, you are thinking these are far-fetched what-ifs and I'm a paranoid Liberal. You say that if the NSA grows too oppressive you will revolt. The problem is that you won't know it when it happens. These things happen slowly. Your revolt will start when they break down YOUR door or put a bullet in YOUR head.

When Social Security was first enacted, it was a "voluntary" program and carried many caveats. I'm sure opponents could foresee the future as our Capitalist society slowly errodes into Socialism, yet were reassured that they were being paranoid. Sixty years later and Social Security is out of control. It is not financially sound, has no long term viability, and has created generations of people dependent upon their government.

We have to remember why the Constitution was written. We have to take responsibility for our own lives and limit our government.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 4:40 PM

I'll address you points right away. ;)

No, I don't believe the NSA is murdering anyone. I do believe the NSA is KILLING Americans who are terrorists... The NSA is not just the science arm, it's also the executing arm. The CIA kills spies abroad, the NSA kills the bad apples in the homeland... Or perhaps they get the CIA to kill those Americans in the homeland -- regardless the NSA is the one to make the judgement which American must die/be tortured for protecting national security... BECAUSE they are so strong technologically, they KNOW which American needs to be "handled".

You somewhat nonchalantly make a big leap there from "all terrorists are dead" to "killing all gays". ;) That's where we differ. I'm afraid of REAL threats (terrorism) and not of fantastically fantastic threats ;) (all gays killed). I happen to actually believe that the NSA is comprised of real TRUSTWORTHY people with family and friends who may just happen to be GAY THEMSELVES! Now it isn't too hard to come to that conclusion since there's about 10% of gays in the population... Now even if the "gay-lovers/supports" in the NSA are subdued into killing gays, you really think the gays themselves, their family, gays around the world, won't fight back IMMEDIATELY? The world is not what it was pre-WWII. We know everything now IN AN INSTANT. We have REAL TIME pictures and movie clips to CONVINCE US AND MOVE OUR HEARTS when something really bad happens which will lead to something MUCH WORST to happen. Nothing is slow. Killing or disappearance of people will be detected by the media and the public in NO TIME. That's why I'm not afraid of abuse of power - because we really do have freedom of the press. Again, I will start fearing my governement ONLY when I feel I'm getting fed "censored" news, or that blogs/comments are removed without explanation or that I feel some people somehow stopped criticizing the government and all became complete patriots like myself. ;) As long as there are liberals around crying a lot about NOTHING, I'll feel safe.

Score: 0

By montagp

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:13 PM

I intended no distinction between murdering and killing. The NSA is not killing people. Neither is the CIA, again I think you are confused about their role in our government.

"As a separate agency, CIA serves as an independent source of analysis on topics of concern and also works closely with the other organizations in the Intelligence Community to ensure that the intelligence consumer—whether Washington policymaker or battlefield commander—receives the best intelligence possible."

The CIA is an Intelligence organization. They exist only to gather and disseminate information to those who need it.

Even I admit believing what I see in movies now and then, but the NSA and CIA are not killing people.

You are afraid of REAL threats you say... okay. Who is a real threat? Who decides? The United States has been supportive of the Saudi Arabian "government" for decades, because it ensures us cheap oil. The Saudi Arabian "government", i.e. the royal family, has squandered the money on itself and left its country and people in shambles. The United States protects the Saudis through military force every day. So what is a disenchanted Saudi citizen supposed to do? Live in poverty forever, or try and send a message that this is not acceptable?

Now, let me be clear, I DO NOT endorse terrorism.

But, just as in cases of domestic terrorism, there must always be a reason. Also, just as in domestic terrorism, the actual terrorists are few and far between and their success rate for attacks is incredibly low. But, unlike domestic terrorism, we don't understand the reasons behind international terrorists, and we don't want to. It is easier to think of them as different, evil people. We call them INSURGENTS, REGIMES, RADICALS, anything to make them sound inhuman.

The very real concern is that our very actions in fighting terrorism do and will continue to create more terrorists at an increasing rate. In fact, domestic spying will spawn new domestic terrorists and international "peace keeping" missions will continue to spawn new international terrorists.

As for your last point, we DO NOT have freedom of the press. I believe we are gaining that back through peer-to-peer exchange on the internet, but mass media does not fill that purpose anymore. Things happen all the time that you never get to read about. Anytime the government wants to pass new legislation to further encroach on our Liberty, they release a new terrorism alert. The media sensation ensues and the bill is passed. In many ways, I think our current system is more clever than the Nazi propaganda machine because I think it is almost autonomous. There isn't a conspiracy theory running it all, just human nature and misguided intentions.

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By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:35 PM

Wait, so if the CIA isn't killing people overseas, are you saying no spies abroad get killed? What, they just let them stay alive causing damage to the country? Do they send the military to kill some civilian in a foreign country? But regardless of the answer, some individuals MUST DIE, both in the USA and abroad. Who pulls the trigger -- doesn't matter. As long as it gets done. Though it's probably a higher priority for the intel community to kidnap the guy and torture him not as punishment, but to save more lives in the future...

And yes, terrorists feel their actions are fully justified, I fully realize that. The answer is USUALLY not to cater to their demands (even if semi-rational) but to do whatever is in the best interests of the nation. If cheap oil is more important than a few thousands lives lost every few years due to terrorism, then that's what gonna happen. As individuals we have near ZERO power to change that anyway. The only time public opinion changes radically, is, ironically enough, when terrorists attack. At that point you either GIVE UP a little (negotiate with terrorists if you deep down feel they have SOME justification), or fight back harder, depending on how expensive (lives+money) you think either option would cost.

I personally don't believe that fighting back harder is gonna spawn new wave of terrorists who wouldn't act violently regardless. You'll give in a bit to their demands, and guess what, the terrorism will INCREASE because it'll prove effective. The smarter way to go about it is to pour more money into the countries where terrorists are born, so that you give them a REASON TO LIVE and you give their community a REASON TO POLICE ITSELF -- to maintain their "good-enough" life. Basically what I'm saying is to make countries filled with terrorists the puppets of the USA, just like Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, etc...

Score: 0

By montagp

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:50 PM

You've finally made some intelligent statements, though I don't think you even realize it because your reasoning is still flawed.

Public opinion does change radically after terrorist attacks. However, NOT because public opinion naturally changes after terrorist attacks. Because EMOTIONS are heightened and our government USED that to change public opinion. We are the puppets of our government.

"The smarter way to go about it is to pour more money into the countries where terrorists are born, so that you give them a REASON TO LIVE and you give their community a REASON TO POLICE ITSELF"

You are actually correct here. The only way to win is to withdraw our troops from the rest of the world and lift economic sanctions. We need to INCREASE TRADE with "evil" nations, not isolate them. Of course, your rational of making them puppets is a bit off. Through increased economic trade we both become puppets of each other. That is supply and demand both need each other.

Think of Japan. Do you think we would dare attack Japan today? Do you think Japan would dare attack us? It doesn't make any economic sense and our countries would both be ruined. That doesn't mean there aren't Japanese people who dislike us, but the country polices itself. Just as you said. You were correct, I simply needed to rearrange your logic for you. You're welcome.

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 6:34 PM

No, don't change what I've said. The solution is not to pull troops but to increase policing in any country that cannot police itself, then give them a chance to prove they can stand on their own two feet (you mentioned Japan), and if fails to do so (Iraq, Afghanistan..), continue military support (troops) for a few more years...

My point which you're trying to "rearrange" is this: you don't let terrorists feel they've won. EVER. Even if you DO pull some troops back it's only after the US gets a guarantee that the place they've pulled out of will be clear of terrorist-hotbeds FOREVER (well, next 50 years).

You definitely don't pull out of Afghanistan and let the Taliban take back control... Even if the US "leaves" some posts, the terrorists must feel they've gotten A LONGER US ARM GRABBING THEIR BA||S than before. It's just gonna be a puppet state caressing them, not the US directly. That's all.

And that, obviously, will teach them (and everyone else watching --which is more important) not to mess with the US.

Score: 0

By montagp

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 7:01 PM

It's your hot-headed attitude that is shared by Cheney and Bush, and has caused our current nightmare.

"you don't let terrorists feel they've won. EVER."

First, the "terrorists" are winning now. They got really lucky on 9/11, but the real win is that we are bankrupting our economy and trampling our Civil Liberties to chase them around the globe. Even another 10 attacks like 9/11 wouldn't destroy this country. Our war on terror just might destroy us though.

Second, I don't care at all, not one bit, if Usama Bin Laden feels like he has won. Eventually, he will die and those feelings die with him. Usama's feelings of victory will not cause others to take up arms against the United States, unless of course there are still problems worth dying for. If that is the case, then they would not care either way if Usama won or lost. You're applying Kindergarten logic to life and death scenarios, and it doesn't work.

I am saddened that your vote counts equally with mine, though you are likely too young to vote based on your arguments. If so, I suggest you talk to your friends more often. Most young people are smart enough to understand this stuff, which is why Ron Paul has become so wildly popular with young people. If you are in fact older, then I suggest you read more often. Stop swallowing every sound bite you hear on CNN.

RON PAUL 2008
RESTORE AMERICA

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 8:28 PM

What nightmare? A few thousands die to protect a few hundred millions? I call it sad but necessary.

The Great Depression didn't destroy this nation, the cold war..., so you think a little war against a few hundred terrorists is gonna destroy it?

If necessary we will all live in a smaller house, driving an older car, work a few more hours a week and earn a little less. That's not gonna destory us...and it doesn't even seem "necessary" at this point either. We Americans are too spoiled anyway...

I also don't care what one incapacitated terrorist Usama thinks, I do care about his "silent cells" in the USA and what THEY think... I do care about terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq endangering the lives of American soldiers and what THEY think.

All terrorists are one and the same as far as I'm concerned. They either WANT TO ATTACK or REALIZE ITS NOT WORTH THE PRICE. That's all.

As far as votes - I already mentioned in another post that I, too, regret the fact all votes are treated equally. The more PUBLIC SERVICE you demonstrate especially risking your life (Police, Army) should give you double-triple vote. The higher educated you are, the more votes you should get. The more taxes you pay, the more votes you should have. You wanna have your vote count? No problem - go risk your life. Any man/woman born is given that chance. You don't care enough? Then don't, and let the people who REALLY CARE about the PUBLIC take CARE of the public's interest...

Score: 0

By jeffhas

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 4:52 PM

How can the NSA 'handle' some Americans today, but they won't 'handle' other Americans later because we will recognize this then even though we aren't currently recognizing it today.

It's flawed logic.

Score: 0

By Just Jack

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 7:26 AM

Its not flawed logic its manically skewed logic.
This guy is obviously ill, read his exchanges with others and decide for yourself. BTW I hope you are right about Ron Paul, he really is the best person running.

FYI

Megalomania - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Check our friends posts out against these definitions. He doesnt need an audience he need lithium.

Score: 0

By montagp

posted Nov 13, 2007 - 9:08 PM

Just Jack, thanks for supporting Ron Paul. I am sincerely dismayed about the state of our nation, and I think most Americans are as well. We are on a dark path, but a bright and prosperous future is just around the corner... all we need to do is want it.

JOIN THE REVOLUTION MY FRIENDS

www.teaparty07.com

RON PAUL 2008

www.ronpaul2008.com

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 12, 2007 - 9:12 AM

Thank God the world of business and nature (survival of fittest) doesn't need to be phased one mm by your definitions, which may very accurately describe every successful PERSON ever known in history, except, of course, for the one little word "unrealistic".

Those humans of great power did, in fact, prove their superiority over all/mostly-all of their human being brothers...

Score: 0

By Just Jack

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 10:43 AM

FYI I've been the CEO of 4 major companies. How about you pipsqueak?
You still refuse to address one simple fact in your responses/ rants. You talk about how smart you are, you even talk about your sexual attractiveness, however I notice you never confront the one thing I consistently write to you. Have you ever been diagnosed as bipolar or manic? You are ill. You need to seek Help.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 4:57 PM

In order for the logic to be flawed, you are basically saying that the NSA right now is killing/torturing innocent Americans. Nobody but YOU believes that, if that is the case...

Score: 0

By jeffhas

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:38 PM

No... I'm following your logic as spelled out in your own words above... but I'm pretty tired of this, I can see what you are now, and debating lunacy or paranoia is pointless.

Bye.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:53 PM

No, you didn't follow my logic. I explained my logic in plenty words.

You clearly cannot debate my points rationally, so you give up and simply call it paranoia or lunatic. Why? Because I actually believe what everyone tries to push under the carpet: the USA uses torture. Try googling: turture guantanamo bay
for a little hint...

Score: 0

By jeffhas

posted Nov 11, 2007 - 1:10 PM

No fortunately I have a life and I have to get back to it. What points are you trying to make? You say the NSA is above the law - yet you show now proof. That the USA uses torture - maybe, but that doesn't make it right or legal. We're the USA, we're supposed to be better than some third rate banana republic that can't hold it's country together without a barrel of a gun.

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 11, 2007 - 4:11 PM

Neither you nor I can show CLEAR proof that the NSA is above or below the law. My point is that the NSA SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW (and I believe it IS) as long as its critical decisions are made by a POLITICALLY DIVERSIFIED (or A-politicl) body of high court judges and army generals. I don't trust the president nor congress to make those critical decisions. Neither of them need to know detailed things that the NSA must know to protect the country longterm.

And again, the use of torture, if proven effective in saving American lives, is fully justified. The use of WMD is also justified, just as IT WAS FULLY JUSTIFIED IN 1945. The only trick is (AGAIN) to know when exactly you can use it with the correct effect (subdue your enemy without bringing the entire world to an end). The next world war (whenever it happens) will prove this point. The US will be the first (AGAIN) to use WMD and will take it a step further & threaten "innocent" countries to become allies or suffer WMD wrath immediately. The US will further attack "innocent" bystanders (countries not interested in joining the conflict) if they do NOT become allies. It's either you are WITH US or YOU HURT/ENDANGER OUR LIVES. Now THAT'S gonna give your oh-so-sensitive moral watch a few lickin's...

I'll translate this obvious moral lesson into a story:
You are thrown into a big cage with a hungry tiger and you are promised that if you survive the next 48 hours you will be set free. You have a knife in your hand and you are a very strong man. There are ten weaker guys hiding inside a big cabinet in the corner of the cage, waiting for the tiger to eat you so he won't be hungry and leave them alone (for now). You (the strong guy) knock on the cabinet and inform them they must come out and help you fight the tiger or you will kill them one by one. They refuse. You pull one of them forcefully (and them being cowards, do nothing about it) and you kill him. The end of the story is irrelevant: whether they stayed cowards and got killed one by one, whether they joined you to fight the tiger, or whether they all joined the tiger/themselves and tried/successfully to kill you. The point is whether or not your killing of a weak guy was justified. It clearly IS JUSTIFIED BY ANY SANE DEFINITION OF MORALITY.

Now...
It's very naive to believe that anyone will "hold back" from using WMD forever, hence it's smarter to strategically plan ahead usage of WMD RIGHT NOW already (which I'm sure is getting done...)

Though I believe Albert Einstein was wrong. WW4 will not be fought with sticks and stones, simply because even if all WMD were employed in WW3, there will still be many many cities around the world left untouched which will become the new world centers. The world is a very big place...

Score: 0

By Just Jack

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:18 PM

Innocent or not, Americans or not, our country is killing and torturing people. We are not barbarians. We don't do this. I have to now agree with 9999, either you are a 14 year old playing around or you really are a moron. Truly seek help, dial up your meds. You are making a fool of yourself.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:44 PM

You meant to say our country is NOT killing and torturing people. Well, neither of us know the answer for certain, but I tend to believe we DO kill and torture, as difficult as it may be for your oh-so-sensitive-ears to hear.

If killing/torturing suspect-terrorist is proven to save hundreds of lives, I'm pretty sure it gets done.

Score: 0

By Just Jack

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 7:45 PM

No I meant exactly what I wrote. It is apparent to anyone who objectively looks at the facts, not the fantasy, that we are in fact torturing people. The Rendition Program was in fact enacted by the Clinton administration and then greatly expanded by Bush. We (our government) routinely kidnap people and send them to friendly foreign countries where they are tortured to extract information. The work is done by our surrogates so United States and international law can be circumvented. Check your facts. You are just flat out wrong. "We Us our Country" is responsible for this. This is a disgusting affront to every American soldier who fought for his country's ideals. It spits in the face of what we believe this country should be and if Bush and his ilk have their way, will never be again.

If a criminal ordered someone to kidnap and torture a person to get some information and was caught he would go to prison right?... even if he kidnapped and tortured another criminal right? What really is the difference?

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 9:00 PM

OK so now I understand. You agree with me torture is used but you feel disgusted it's being used.

We don't have anything further to discuss since neither of us has exact data over the effectiveness of torture in SAVING LIVES.

If a criminal ordered someone to kidnap and torture another criminal, he should go to jail, yes, (after being tortured himself -- to make sure other criminals are discouraged from doing the same themselves). Unless by torturing that other criminal he has saved the lives of his own family, his own life, or anyone else's life, in which case he shouldn't be put in jail or touched at all. He should receive prosecution immunity.

If you have a moral problem with that, I suggest reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/..._v._Dudley_and_Stephens

and pay close attention to the closing:
"Dudley and Stephens were found guilty and sentenced to death, which was later commuted to six months' imprisonment by Queen Victoria under the Royal Prerogative."

That, essentially means, that what they did was not the wrong thing to do... most people in their place would do the same thing and you CANNOT tell me it would have been "better" for everyone to die.

Score: 0

By Just Jack

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 9:22 PM

No No No Wrong is wrong. Maybe you just watched to many episodes of 24. Doing the wrong thing, is the wrong thing, because its the wrong thing. It doesnt suddenly become the right thing because it saves lives or for any other collateral consequence whatsoever. If we become barbarians to fight barbarians then the barbarians win. We as a country our ideal was better than that, then along came Bush. I am not alone in feeling this way. Many people in this country hate this guy enough to qualify for French citizenship! Make no mistake I am not a pacifist. If some attacks my country I am all for fighting back. I am all for defending ourselves but I still believe in the old fashioned concept of right and wrong. Torturing someone, anyone is wrong no matter what. The only person that would not understand this is a psychopathic personality, someone without the ability to discern between right and wrong. Have to go now, I actually have a life.

Jack

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 9:48 PM

The only person who would rather see a whole US city wiped off the planet than see an American terrorist tortured, is...well...LUCKILY not a person with any power to make that decision. ;)

Luckily, too, people with sufficient intelligence and TRUE MORAL VALUES who happen to be in unfortunate circumstances that challenge their morality (say wartime), will do THE RIGHT THING and will PERSONALLY torture someone (even if against "any and all law") if they honestly believe the info they get from that person will save THEM or their COMRADES.

This is simply natural behavior. You don't need to ENJOY torturing someone just as you don't enjoy cutting off someone's arm when you're trying to save their LIFE. It's just something that STRONG MORAL PEOPLE are capable of doing and weak evolutionary-challenged individuals cannot handle. ;)

Go ahead and die so a terrorist/enemy-soldier isn't inconvenienced... ;) I'll take the other option whenever possible.

Score: 0

By Just Jack

posted Nov 11, 2007 - 7:53 AM

No point in continuing a rational conversation with an amoral irrational person. Please please don't breed.

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 11, 2007 - 3:06 PM

My morality is superior to yours, since judging by the effect, my moral mirrors nature's and God's morals -- to remain the one in power at all costs, because GOOD must overcome EVIL even if GOOD must BECOME MORE EVIL THAN EVIL temporarily.

Only conventional-thinking, common, unimaginative, blind people like yourself cover themselves with a blanket of morality made of air, soon to prove its effectiveness (or rather -- lack thereof)...

Thank GOD thinking MORAL people, those IN POWER, are smarter than you.

Score: 0

By Just Jack

edited Nov 11, 2007 - 11:42 PM

You still don't get it. I am smarter than you. I baited you into exposing yourself to everyone on this site as to what a crank whack job you are.

I'm also more powerful than you... I got you to do what I wanted.

And I have to tell you, that I am truly sorry for what I did to you. After reading you posts, I know that your not in a mental state to accept this right now but I hope for the best for you and your probably very worried family. I thought you were an amoral idiot. What I realize now is that you are a severely psychologically damaged manic individual who is in serious need of some help. Check out www.bipolarworld.com and seriously look at the symptoms, they have resources for people like you. You appear to be in a very manic state. I wish you well.

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 2:47 AM

Yes, I see. You are also so much more original than me, that after I was the first one to demonstrate my superiority and solidify it by using the words SUPERIOR THAN YOU all of a sudden you are "SMARTER" "MORE POWERFUL", things we haven't heard in any of your posts UNTIL I BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THE SAD TRUTH I AM MORALLY SUPERIOR.

It's all right, deep down we both know the truth: the US monitors its citizens, uses torture BECAUSE it is the right thing to do under certain circumstances, the US as the most moral country in the world USED WMD and will USE THEM AGAIN WHEN NECESSARY WITH NO HESITATION...and of course, that the US is going to attack Iran sometime in the next few years while the homeland security is boosted with the use of secure tracking of human movement in some manner or another (and easiest way - mandate that all adults carry a GPS&P2P-enabled cellphone with them 24/7). P2P for the purpose of relaying a message to a group of tens of thousands of cellphones in a radius of few street blocks -- no cell tower can handle that without p2p employed. Now the phone-carrying mandate shall have multiple purposes including warning you of an attack, tracking you, DEMANDING your assistance if you are in a deadly area where your life is automatically worth less than the lives of multiple people you may be able to save, etc etc. You will NOT be able to legally escape danger if people are yelling for help and you can risk your life to help them. This is FORCED HEROISM. Absolute morality and total control will come upon us, and it will be a GOOD DAY, because what can we do, people of inferior intellect as yourself are unable to comprehend the basic notion that your individual life is worth NOTHING compared to the life of any group of multiple individuals. In military law this is called: forcefully enlisting you to service (war)...

If cellphone tracking won't suffice, the citizens shall be forced to undergo operations where an RFID chip will be implanted inside their skull or heart, in a self-destructible encasing. You try to remove it, you die of poisoning... You will not be able to be a spy or a successful terrorist in such a community...

Anyway, it's pointless to argue with you for you will not comprehend this right now. But as you read my words in coming years you will immediately recognize my SUPERIOR brilliance and UNBELIEVABLY accurate predictions. I am, in fact, almost never wrong.

Score: 0

By Just Jack

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 7:47 AM

Thank you once again for illustrating my point. Perhaps these definitions will help you to finally see it.

Meglomainia - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Really Seek Help.

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 12, 2007 - 9:23 AM

Hehehehehehe

You HONESTLY believe I'm not fully aware of my human limitations, which are, admittedly, far above 99% of anyone else's?

You gotta take this medium at face value. I actually don't REALLY believe anything I hear and only half of what I say... ;)

But I'm having fun!

Score: 0

By jeffhas

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:46 PM

Great vigilante justice... just what a civilized society needs.

So much for the Constitution.

You're unravelling right before our eyes.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 5:57 PM

A civilized society that wants to exist must behave uncivilized towards those aiming to destroy IT AS A WHOLE. We're not talking a two-bit murderer, or even a psychopath mass murderer who can kill max 100 ppl. We are talking about WAR with tens of thousands of casualties for a really "successful" attack.

Score: 0

By Hotlikecold

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 3:51 PM

Piggy Palace Pod Vod TV.

Watch international online television, webcasts, podcasts and vodcasts. Listen to satelite radio. Buy movies, books, games, software and gifts from online store. ABC News, Elle Magazine, Car and Driver, Road and Track, Billboard magazine online.

www.Goodtimessociety.net

Score: 0

By dennisbrownadman

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 2:28 PM

I have a right to free speech, guaranteed in the Constitution's Bill of Rights. Years ago, the government entered into secret agreements with telecommunications companies, then began to monitor my emails (and probably phone calls)without my knowledge or consent. It tracks my messages and knows when, and from where, each was sent. I don't mind because I am not a terrorist, right?
I also have a right to own firearms, guaranteed by the Constitution's Bill of Rights. Years ago, the government entered into secret agreements with firearms makers. Since then, heat and impact resistant microchips have been integrated into the stocks or butts of every firearm legally manufactured in or imported into this country. I am a law-abiding citizen. So all of my guns were legally manufactured or imported. The government therefore has monitored every one of my gun purchases and trades without my consent. It tracks all of my firearms by GPS satellite, and knows where each one is located, 24/7. Secret government installations continually download the info off the satellites and then mine the data. There are millions of rifles and countless handguns in this country so the government couldn't possibly sift through the tracking data it mines on all of them. Of course, I don't mind because I am not a terrorist, right?

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 2:57 PM

That's right. You shouldn't care. Did they use any of the mined info to hurt yourself or your family/friends, or any of your friend's family/friends? Or your friend's friend's family/friends? No. Thus - the info is being used for GOOD purposes - solving/preventing crimes/terrorism.

Score: 0

By jeffhas

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 4:56 PM

...as far you know. Remember, NSA is super-duper secret, they can kill terrorists or 'handle' certain Americans, and we can't/won't see it happening... so maybe perfectly good citizens are being hurt by this now. Of course we'll never know, because no citizen will be able to have a date in court to reveal any of this.

If there is nothing to fear, then why not let the cases progress?

Score: 0

By extremely well

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 5:04 PM

I don't think the NSA can kill terrorists without the terrorist's family knowing about it...or their operators... Unless you are saying they're randomly killing people...

In other words you are saying that we'll all believe the suspect-terrorist died of a car accident when in fact he was killed by the NSA, and NOBODY would suspect foulplay, and nobody in the NSA will care to stop killing innocent ppl? How many such cases you think can go undetected?

A few mistakes a year? No problem. I'd rather see one dead victim than 5,000 dead victims (if the program of killing suspect-terrorists is stopped...if there is such a program)...

Score: 0

By jeffhas

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 5:44 PM

What about the 3800+ soldiers killed, the 40,000 wounded?... the 60,000-300,000 Iraqis killed (depending on who's numbers you believe)

OK with all of th at to save the 3,000?

I thought you just explained the needs of the many outweigh the few?

Flawed logic once again.... you are getting revealed.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 6:01 PM

Yep, I'm fine with it. First of all, an Iraqi life is worth much less than an American life. If you feel that is "just not right" you are hereby requested to sell all your possessions and join the Chinese communist republic... Oh wait, now you do suddenly believe YOUR OWN PERSONAL LIFE is worth more than a poor Chinese or even a poor African starving boy... Spare me the pseudo-moralicism...

The war in Iraq has saved millions of people for the next 100 years. Likewise the soon-to-be war with Iran.

Score: 0

By Teetnunu

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 2:19 PM

The only terrorist group operating in the United States today is the Bush Family. From the Nazi Prescott Bush to the Al Quada leader GW Bush. The Bin Laden Family and the Bush Family are on good terms.

Score: 0

By Tonyzzz123

edited Nov 9, 2007 - 3:20 PM

FYI- I have first hand knowledge that the Government has super computers that record and store every land-line, and cell conversation ever made in the world. They can research any person's number and re-play any conversation they have had since the inception on the technology. To which I do not have the date. Not giving my opinion on this subject, just stating the fact. By the way, same goes anything you do or purchase on the web.

Score: 0

By JLF

edited Nov 10, 2007 - 1:42 PM

I understand that is the case however, they do not have the ability to sift through all those communications in any reasonably efficient way. Hence the need to do the data mining. That is, organizing it so that, following authorized protocols, they can go to the specific communication they seek. So, unless you have been calling Osama in Pakistan, no one is interested in whether you call your grandmother in Dubuque or business partner in Abu Dhabi. Don't let your paranoia get the better of you. When we see that the government has been abusing our trust then we can do something about it. So far, I have not seen anyone complain about being unlawfully tapped.

Score: 0

By extremely well

posted Nov 10, 2007 - 2:04 PM

Yo