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Apple Files New Suit Against Creative

By Ed Oswald, BetaNews

June 7, 2006, 11:12 AM

Apple has sued Creative a second time, court documents indicate. The new suit, filed in U.S. District Court in Texas on June 1, accuses the electronics maker of infringing on three more of Apple's patents, and seeks damages and an injunction.

Creative first sued Apple on May 15, accusing the company of infringement of the so-called "Zen Patent." Apple moved quickly and countersued the company on the same day, claiming infringement on four patents of its own.

In the case of the current suit, Creative is accused of infringing on three patents: one that involves the display of data on a computer; another involving the process of editing data using a portable device; and one involving the creation of icons for organizational purposes.

So far, Creative has remained quiet on this latest suit. Some industry watchers believe that Apple may be searching through its list of patents and suing Creative for ones it feels it has a solid case on, pressuring the smaller MP3 player maker to settle quickly.

Analysts say that suing Apple was not the answer for Creative, and that it needs to focus on its business fundamentals first. Additionally, Creative is in shaky financial shape, and Apple has the money to make the process a long and expensive fight.

For Creative's fiscal year ending June 30, the company is expected to post a loss of $116.6 million, according to Reuters estimates.

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By Tenoq

posted Jun 8, 2006 - 2:20 AM

Creative has buried quite a few great companies, and I wouldn't mind someone forcing them to wake up to themselves. Their sound cards are their best business - and they still leave a LOT to be desired. They destroyed Aureal3D in favour of their EAX crap, which even now is still buggy and arguably of inferior quality to the old A3D method of positional audio.

Still, I really don't like all this lawsuit s***e. But I guess Apple is only making a point - anyone can file a lawsuit for patent infringement. :p

Score: 0

By cranbers

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 10:10 PM

Obviously this is apple going all out on creative for the first suit they filed, sort of that You want to play dirty we will oblige you kind of attitude.

It's also obvious that creative is in no kind of shape to battle apple in the court room. This very well could send creative down for the count.

Creative should really concentrate on what they do and that is in the speaker/sound card arena. Although really sound cards is really the only thing they could get right.

I remember like 5 years ago creative had quite an amazing product line up, I had their speakers, sound card, nomad player, video card based on geforce 2 gts. Now they seem to have not much of anything. A lot of their products were junk as well, the speakers sucked, the nomad was great for its day and who knows where the video card area went.

So yeah it would appear creative is on its down and out, i am sure nvidia or someone will buy them though.

The on board audio on motherboards really isn't bad. I personally still use a audigy 2 with no plans to upgrade. I mean why would I need something crazy like the xfi? Honestly I only use it still for the firewire port that came with it.

Now drivers, well the drivers by themselves are ok, its hundreds of megabytes of crap, they would like you to install on your computer with it. I remember they used to not let you install drivers off the Internet without first having the ones from a cd installed first. I mean that really pissed me off.

Score: 0

By Wyojake

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 8:13 PM

Apple needs to be cored. Users need to blockade these companies who over price their products to the degree they can afford long and litigious actions for unbelieveable patents, at the expense of their consumers. Creative has always left a bit to be desired but at least they are priced for the common user. And by the way Apple most of your products suck as much as your attitude.

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Jun 8, 2006 - 2:13 AM

Errr, Apple is a business - they'll price their products at whatever people will pay, as any other business does. Competitors drive down the prices, just like any other market. A successful product is not an over priced one - if the iPod is overpriced it wouldn't command 80% of the mp3 player market.

Time to study economics, Wyojake. Or perhaps be a little more succinct in your comments: "I believe Apple's products are overpriced" would be far more accurate. :P

Score: 0

By dvferret

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 8:19 PM

Dang right, agree 100 percent. Apple's products are way overpriced and they suck.

Score: 0

By El Kabong

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 5:00 PM

Maybe all the patents should be thrown out.
This only reinforces my opinion that Microsoft should have buride Apple long ago instead of subsidizing them.

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Jun 8, 2006 - 2:17 AM

*rolls eyes*

Microsoft did not bail out Apple. Assisted, sure, but they only added about 10% to what Apple already had in cash.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 5:15 PM

Yeah, the Anti-trust zealots would have had a hey-day with that one.

Score: 0

By rijp

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 6:39 PM

"..hey-day with that one"

um..its "hay" not "hey".. hehe... hey,he he on hay, okay?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 8:20 PM

I almost used "dei", just to mess with ya. I guess I should have. ;)

Score: 0

By rustik_one

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 7:52 PM

The Grammar Police save the day again... :|

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 4:44 PM

"lawsuit...one that involves the display of data on a computer; another involving the process of editing data using a portable device; and one involving the creation of icons for organizational purposes."

Patent reform needed...

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 5:14 PM

Patent reform needed...

That, above anything else I've read on this forums deserves the proverbial,

"Duh?"

Score: 0

By zridling

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 3:53 PM

Apple is the new SCO/RIAA. File a lawsuit a day will keep the customers away! Apple has become a sad, sick company hoping more suckers will buy their fourth ipod this month.

Score: 0

By Don Juan

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 6:47 PM

Apple has been a sad sick company for 10 years.

Score: 0

By GCoder

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 4:55 PM

keep smokin the CRA*K there "zridling"

you couldn't be further off...

Score: 0

By kholdstare

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 4:18 PM

what the hell are you talking about? this situation does not have anything remotely close resembling that. apple is just countering creative with its own patent suits. who know's if creative didn't start this with apple then apple may have never sued them at all. I think apple is just playing games with creative at this point and if creative drops its suit i think apple will as well.

Score: 0

By zridling

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 7:27 PM

Duh, Apple went so far as to start suing bloggers — and LOST that case last week. Apple is now a law firm, not a computer company. So you're telling me that APPLE has the right to a patent on the CREATION of icons? That's what's insane. Read the article.

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Jun 8, 2006 - 2:16 AM

Suing? I think they were just trying to protect trade secrets by arguing the legality of publishing them. They have every right to try and protect themselves from industrial espionage, IMO.

Score: 0

By lwcc

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 8:59 PM

This is a counter-suit to Creative's suit over, get this, ownership of the concept of hierarchical menus on a portable device.

I imagine if Creative, who started all this nonsense, dropped their suit, Apple would immediately drop theirs too.

Score: 0

By zxocuteboy

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 3:12 PM

When is all these law suites going to end???

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 3:42 PM

When we finally succeed in making that deadly virus that *only* affects lawyers.

Score: 0

By rijp

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 4:07 PM

What do you call a group of lawyers walking down the street?

- A Target.

What is black and brown, and looks good on a laywer?

- A Doberman.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 5:12 PM

a beach-full of lawyers buried up to their heads in sand?

- Not enough sand.

Lawyer jokes are a dime a dozen. A dozen lawyers, however, will run you several hundred-thousand.

Score: 0

By xyzcb1

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 2:39 PM

I must agreed with all of you that Creative make the best sound card out there, and there is vitual no competitions. Here is the problem, if a mid to high end computer include lcd cost around 600 to 700, how many of these buyers willing to spend about 500 to buy a better soundcard and speakers?

If they going to focus on what they do best, they should make deals with motherboard manufacturers. Assuming they make about $1 to $2 from each board that sold, they would make tons of money there.

I am trying to speak business sense here. We are agreed they make the best sound card, but if demand is low and they over spend on their product, they will never make a profit. My restaurant can make the best food in town, but if everyone is eating fast food because they are too busy to sit down, I will make my restaurant a fast food restaurant.

Score: 0

By Bogunch

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 2:35 PM

Mr. Jobs has joined the club of the scumbags!!!

Score: 0

By dvferret

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 8:22 PM

Nah, I think he's always been a member of the scumbags.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 1:59 PM

you know, we don't need free enterprise anymore, let's just sue! Its the best way to make money.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 2:06 PM

Screw investing in stock. Let's sue 'em! Less work that way.

Score: 0

By Pixelsmack

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 1:34 PM

Creative should have never lost it's focus. They are a *sound card* company. It's their bread and butter. Huge margins on those things. Yet they let quality control on sound cards slip year after year.

Driver support, the poorest in the industry and then the huge expenditure on the THX license.

They OWNED the sound card market because of quality products at one time. Now they keep slipping year after year.

You have generic companies from Taiwan shipping 8.1 cards for $25 that are getting reviewed "as good as" the Creative products. This is not good. This does not allow you to maintain the tight grip you need.

The recent xFi fiasco doesn't help. They *had* the potential to show the market once again they had a top tier product and they failed.

Numerous forum postings, not just in Creative's own either, and the fact that EVERYONE I know who has bought one and installed it has had a TON of issues. I can't say that for any other type of hardware in my box or my friends!

They need to get bought or shut down and be reborn.

Score: 0

By smarterthanyou

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 2:02 PM

Any problems with Creative Labs sound cards are probably user error. Creative Labs has the best performing sound cards on the market. Currently no other sound card on the market has its own hardware DSP so how can you say the other sound cards are as good? Every single sound card that Creative Labs has released has been a huge improvement over the previous one.

Any good sound card should have the THX logo. If a home theater product isn't THX certified it doesn't belong in a home theater.

As for the X-Fi, what problems are you referring to? The X-Fi sound card has no major flaws. Creative Lab's only mistake was taking so long to write a driver for 64-bit Windows XP.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 3:41 PM

Convinced a buddy of mine to buy the X-Fi before I jump in to get it.

He's had it now for about 3 weeks. Installation was a breeze. Windows XP, 32-bit. He has a ton of crap on the system, but we keep the viruses and spyware crap off of it.

He hasn't had a single problem with it.

He's a DJ, nad rips CDs and LPs to MP3/FLAC. He also rips his collectiong of VHS to DVD as well as his DVD collection, stripping out all the "extra" garbage.

That computer gets more use than most office machines, and possibly many professional recording set-ups.

Needless to say, I will be buying one within the next 1-2 months. :)

Score: 0

By rotjong

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 2:59 PM

I don't wish to sidetrack this too far but your statement that any problems are probably user error is stretching it a bit far.

A LOT of people have had sound issues with Creative cards. Personally, I never had any issues with the AWExx cards or SoundBlaster Live! cards. There were issues with my Audigy, though. And updating drivers was just a nightmare. Nonetheless, since the Audigy came out I've seen mention of loads of problems from different people be it friends or just online. Driver issues, sound issues, etc.

I won't buy anything other than a Creative card but... I'm holding on to my SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 until I see a real reason to upgrade and as of yet with the Audigy issues I experienced myself... I'll be waiting awhile.

As for the mp3 player market. As has already been said... Creative needs to keep itself focused on the soundcard market.

Score: 0

By The Man

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 6:30 PM

i've had a live 5.1, audigy, and audigy 2. had no problems with any of them, drivers or otherwise.

Creative needs a sleeker, more stylish mp3 player to compete with the ipod.

what were your issues with your audigy? besides the drivers that is

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 6:42 PM

"Creative needs a sleeker, more stylish mp3 player to compete with the ipod."

Uh, what? The iPod is plain! Its just a case with a circle in the middle.. Wow, that is sleek! not.

The Nomad is sexier than the iPod .. I don't know what you are looking it, its got the cool blue neon, its more stylish, and it works better, at least for me...

The *ONLY* reason I use iPod in my car, is they don't make an accessory for the Nomad... yet.

Score: 0

By The Man

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 7:38 PM

goes more like this:

" The iPod is plain! Uh, what? "
" The iPod is sexier than the Nomad .. I don't know what you are looking it"

lol
not my opinion though, i don't own one
bought one for my g/f, she loves it
also, of the people i know with mp3 players, about half have ipods. they're not buying them cause they're cheap!

Score: 0

By Pixelsmack

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 6:37 PM

I didn't say all users had issues. I said numerous. All of my friends and myself are quite capable in effective system building. Creative's cards have a history of various issues.

The squeel of death
System Locks in their .dll for the driver
Making games stutter.

The current crop of top games all list solutions for users having sound problems. You know what it is? "If running a Creative audio card such as the Audigy series or new xFI, disable hardware accleration under the Windows Audio properties panel"

This effectively turns off the Creative's card hardware support.

I do not disagree that DSP based cards SHOULD be superior. In fact the older SBLIVE has proven to be one of the more reliable cards they ever made. Yes it's noisy compared to even onboard audio today, but still it was very nice.

The Audigy line up and the new xFI series have been nothing but headaches.

Of course a bunch of people who don't have issues are going to post to this thread. People who *are* having issues have no interest in this thread since they've long ago moved on to other audio solutions! This is typical of any thread where someone bashes Creative audio products.

I'm just warning those that may be on the market.

Score: 0

By smarterthanyou

posted Jun 8, 2006 - 2:35 AM

If you do experience stuttering of any kind then it's probably a bug with the game and not Creative Lab's sound cards.

In fact, before I got my X-Fi sound card, Doom 3 was nearly unplayable in Ultra Mode despite my computer's configuration which is displayed below. It didn't matter if I used a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card or a Creative Labs Audigy 2 card. With the X-Fi card in Game Mode, video and audio are perfectly smooth with no stutter. This is true with or without the X-Fi patch.

My system configuration:

Asus SK8N Motherboard
AMD Opteron Model 240 Processor
1024MB PC2100 DDR SDRAM
nVidia GeForce 6800GT w/256MB GDDR 3 memory
Western Digital 74GB Raptor hard drive

Score: 0

By GS5

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 12:58 PM

That was a big mistake suing Apple in the first place. The iPod isn't just starting out, it's been there for quite some time. In fact like Apple or hate them the iPod is the mother of all MP3 players. Apple could file some sort of lawsuit for every company out there for trying to copy the iPod. Personally I think they're overpriced and the internal battery is a problem. But the iPod is still one on of top players around and probably will be for a long time.

Score: 0

By bigsportsman

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 12:40 PM

I think overall these suits are getting way out of hand. The thing is that sure they may have built on some of the same theories and assumptions you made but that doesn't mean you should sue them. Especially if the two products are as dissimilar as the ipod and the creative products. That is like Ford suing GM for using the assembly line. Or Pascal suing MS over Visual Basic Language.

Because there is no disincentive for companies not to sue they will just continue forever suing over stupid and time consuming things. These things should be settled out of court saving the tax payers and consumers billions in costs.

Apple needs to remember they were jst in court with Apple Records over similar issues of infringement. And Creative has bigger internal fish to fry.

Score: 0

By nightops

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 12:31 PM

Bad, bad, baaaad move Creative... You don't fight the giant unless you are the only one holding the wild cards.

Score: 0

By xyzcb1

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 12:28 PM

I agreed with what the analysts say, Creative needs to focus on their fundamentals. They have been losing money years after years. The last products I bought from them is SB Live, that was years ago. I think they should drop their sound card line, because all motherboard come with soundcard. Very few people willing to spend extra to buy an additional card. I think they should just focus on speakers. Not just for PC, but for home as well. I think their speakers are decent, I am still using them for my PC.

Score: 0

By kholdstare

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 1:42 PM

Are you high or somthing? onboard sound is the worst you can get or use.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 4:10 PM

Not true, some onboard sound devices (a the higher end) are in fact Creative XFi sound cards. Most are 5.1 dolby digital, high definition sound cards, they may not be name brand, but they are the same as retail products..

It may have BEEN true, but the new motherboards have integrated audio and video that is just as good as the stuff you buy separately.

Score: 0

By The Man

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 6:27 PM

not quite
but on-board sound and video are getting better

the on-board sound can have issues with electrical interference from other circuits on the MB.
and on-board video can't disperse the heat like seperate cards can, therefore limiting the speed at which they can run
not to mention, when you're talking high end video, on-board just doesn't compare with SLI and crossfire configs.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 6:47 PM

OK, so on motherboards that have built in on-board XFi, and x800 ATI video.. they are going to be different than the stand alone components?

umm.. I don't think so. They are the SAME just instead of soldered on a daughter card, they are incorporated onto the motherboard.

I am not talking about generic similar equivalents, I am talking about the SAME components, but rather than buy a separate audio PCI card, and x800 PCI Express card, they are integrated with the motherboard.

I will take exception to this, especially when you look at Tom's Hardware, and notice the specs and performance are IDENTICAL. The chip may have intereference with other circuits, that true.. but I haven't had trouble with Giga-byte or Asus with onboard components...

They perform equally as the retail off the shelf products, even the driver doesn't distinguish them as different. They appear exactly and function just like they would if you bought the components separate.

Score: 0

By The Man

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 7:52 PM

can't say i would ever use on-board video for gaming...or media configs for that matter.
too many limitations to a built in video card
to me that would be like a built in proc
maybe if i was only doing office work on it.

but, i do use the on-board sound on my new gaming rig(MSI MB).
haven't noticed any adverse effects, maybe the interference issue isn't there on quality boards

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 12:42 PM

. I think they should drop their sound card line,

They are currently selling arguably the *best* sound card for desktop PCs on the market right now. The Sound Blaster X-Fi.

Compare this to *any* other consumer grade card on the market and you will never go back. This is as close to professional grade as you're gonna get.

Plug those speakers into a *real* card, and you'll see what I mean.

Score: 0

By Grazer

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 1:44 PM

Yeah, seriously, soundcards are the only thing I have ever bought from Creative, and they are the only company I have bought a soundcard from...I am not sure how they're soundcard business is doing, but I have a feeling it is the only thing keeping them going.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 4:12 PM

Nomad MP3 players are pretty good, you don't hear about them, because of Apple iPods, but they are much better in my opinion.

creative also has a niche market, that Apple can't touch, Midi. Creative makes some excellent Midi boards that sound studios use..

I think Creative will be ok without sound cards.. That's like saying Motorola would be hurting without phones.. You SEE the phones on the consumer market, but that is a VERY small part of their total GNP.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 5:13 PM

GNP

Gross National Product?

What?!?!??

Score: 0

By rijp

edited Jun 7, 2006 - 6:50 PM

Can't a company have a GNP?

I guess it should be GDP.

Score: 0

By oufc_gav

edited Jun 8, 2006 - 4:27 AM

Well, GDP is Gross Domestic Product...also a measure of a Nation rather than a company. I'd imagine you mean turnover.

Score: 0

By The Man

posted Jun 7, 2006 - 6:30 PM

lol

Score: 0

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