SONY HATES YOU!!!

http://www.thebestpagein....net/c.cgi?u=sony_bulls***

Well well well. Its amazing to me the lack of knowledge on this whole situation. I work in retail, (electronics); The clientel that we deal with are ordinary everyday people, such as most of you are, and have absolutely no clue as to whats been said here or more importantly how its affected their entertainment investment. There are some people out there that are saying EXACTLY what a lot of you have already put so eloquently, "I'm gonna wait untill the prices/dust settles down." I guess it will pay off in the end.

Fact: Consumers will be upset...very upset, pissed if you will
Fact: BD has "more" backing with major film companies that HD DVD. (BD = $$$$$$$)

So put yourself in these companies shoes for one second-
Do you:
A) Turn back on BD, loose your sales, pull your product off the shelves and reproduce films for HD DVD
B) SUE SUE SUE BD, Pray to the allmighty JEBUS himself that your company doesnt loose its a** in the process ~ no guarenteed solution is found
C) Make BD players with the proper format that are VERY affordable and perhaps offer the consumer some sort of reembursment for this hassle
D) Make BD/HD DVD COMBO or stand alone BD players with an upgradable format that is VERY affordable (price of a current BD player $450-$500) and something the average consumer could update in a 1/2hr at home (someone said PS3 before?!?!)

What do you do? Only time will tell.

I do find something very... "Deja Vou" about this situation.

Does anyone remember VCR and Beta?

For everyone who has held out this long thinking about the format war, it's time to look at value and return and vote with your wallet rather than the paid off news media. If you have an HD set, there is no reason to deprive yourself of quality movie watching. The toshibas below and just above the $150 mark offer outstanding DVD upsampling. You get a batch of HD movies thrown in for a total MUCH less than the movies retail cost alone. What is there to think about!? OK, I'm not going crazy buying new titles yet either, but the studios deserve that treatment after making such a mess of this situation. If all the studios offered both formats now, blu-ray would disappear faster than a rat down its own hole. HD-DVD: better, cheaper, smarter. Just do it.

Wow. It still makes no sense to me why people are buying blu-ray players. I understand if you have a PS3 and you buy the movies but to buy Blu-Ray players at this point seems pretty crazy

I'm really confused as to why Warners and others accept this type of situation with this format. From day one HD-DVD was complete. Updates were issued periodically, but for all intents and purposes Toshiba delivered a full package at a lesser price.

Where there's smoke there's fire, and Sony has been paying off huge sums of money and making considerable discounting to the major studios to keep BD alive and perking. They sold Disney and Fox a bill of goods about the features that Blu Ray could promote. Most of which are now causing considerable problems for stand alone oners.

There have been and still will be tremendous sales on HD-DVD players. These people deserve the right to purchase the new movies Hollywood is offering. The studios should at least remain neutral until the end of this current year to determine how the war is going.

Gerald Jay Schatt.

"Initial hardware players lacked these capabilities in order to keep costs down." - I find this statement ironic, given that Blu-Ray hardware has been priced almost twice as high as the HD-DVD equivalent (even with lacking features). I'm with folks (including the developers themselves) that are simply sitting this war out until the dust settles.

Additionally, I'm not sure how this news is a surprise to anyone. Money and bottom line aside, Toshiba split from the group for a reason and I have a feeling this is only the first revealing step in a long and bumpy road that will expose what Blu-Ray-backing companies really think of the consumer.

And finally; I realize that folks have continued to remark that there are companies other than Sony involved with Blu-Ray and in fact, that the technology was developed by Panasonic; however, "they knew what they were getting into" sounds remarkably like Sony... as does the pushing of PS3 by Blu-Ray representatives.

As much as I hate to admit it, that's just marketing genius!

How iggnorant do you have to be to buy a bluray dvd player instead of just buying a PS3? Same price with way more options, you can buy a 25 dollar remote that is just like any other dvd player remote. You can get online and download updates and trailers for other movies, you can store pictures movies and music on it and play it on your t.v., and thats all stuff not including the GAMEING part of it.

I was all happy when HD DVD finally took a nosedive. But you have to admit, all of the HD DVD models can utilize all of the special features released on discs. I have a brand new Samsung BDP-1400 just three weeks old and now it's already outdated? I think there will be a backlash from consumers and I don't think "They knew what they were getting into" will suffice to people that spent $1000 or more on a DVD player.

Get ready for another round of lawsuits if this is the case. I'd be PISSED if I'd bought a standalone for $400 then had someone from the BDA say well tough.. you knew what you were getting into. If I owned a stand alone I'd send it back and tell em they can either keep the player I'm sending them and send me a new updated one or expect a class action law suit.

TZZDC - You're missing the point. You bought a player that didn't have the hardware capabilities the later ones were going to have. You saying that you would sue is like saying that because your current computer can't do what the computers of the future can do you are going to sue the manufacturers. If you don't have the money to be part of the early adopter club, then you simply don't get to be a part of it.

Thats actually why I got a PS3 to avoid that whole problem. Of course the added bonus was the console for gaming but thats besides the point. Speaking of computers sure your computer may not be able to run the software as fast as the newer ones do but hell you're still able to run the software.

I doubt I'm missing the point really never have I encountered a set top player that is out of date because new software features. That'd be like me buying a VHS deck back in the day and six months or a year later its like ohh you cant play any of the newer movies because you're decks too old.. But it can still play VHS tapes.. ohh thats too bad they changed how the video is held on the tapes.. sorry have to buy a new one.

I mean seriously the way the blu-ray people sound is exactly like a bunch of greedy corporate CEO's at Sony that don't give a damn about the consumer but care about the almighty dollar. Yeah you bought a player for $399 or more, tough s*it.

The last comment just begs lawsuit I'm sure companies have been sued over poor implimentations of software/hardware before and it like well you rushed your product out the door facing competition.. shows you how much the corporations really care about the consumer.

You can't compare VHS players to today's Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players. VHS and Beta players were mechanical devices that couldn't do much outside of playback and record TV signals. Today's DVD players are basically specialized computers. Computers are upgraded, continuously modified, and their capabilities expanded. Thats how it is in the 21st century. So, YES, you are missing the point.

Such is the price of early adoption. Though I'm itching to make full use of my 1080p LCD, I'm willing to wait until the format war is over and the winning format is mature enough to meet my needs.

That's the thing though... HD DVD has been mature from the start. Sadly, not enough people realize this.

Does Anyone still know if this holds true with the new 2.0 spec coming out and all?

http://www.engadget.com/...ers-who-hack-their-gear

Of course the looming next-gen optical format war about to go down between Blu-ray and HD-DVD might be kind of interesting if it weren't taking place, well, in your very livingroom. But with talks broken down and devices starting to crop up, it looks like the first blows will soon be felt—but aren't they supposed to be hitting one another and not the end user? Because this little bit in a Reuters piece this morning left us a little unsettled:

On top of that, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely.

Are they talking about PVP-OPM techniques and rejected HDMI keys, or something else far more sinister? Because apparently "A hacked player is any player that is doing something it's not supposed to do," which open to a pretty fair amount of interpretation—most of which egregious.

I'm not sure. When you consider that 3 of the studios in the BDA (Fox, Disney, and Sony) love DRM, and Sony's patent to lock discs to machines, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Blu-ray isn't looking to offer the consumer a choice, so much as it is trying to control the consumer.

What are you talking about ? HD-DVD was not designed to be customer friendly at all. AACS is still DRM and Region Coding was approved for HD-DVD specifications as an update to be issued thru new firmwares.

Come on now, do you really think that Toshiba is just going to lay down and die now with respect to HD DVD? They have multiple MILLIONS of dollars invested in this format. There is no WAY they are just going to throw in the towel now and call it quits on this format.

I think you are going to see some VERY innovative and VERY aggressive moves from Toshiba in the near future now that the pressure is really on them and the eyes of the world are all watching.

More excitement to come here soon I am sure.

I agree, Toshiba is a huge company that makes a lot more technologies and does a lot for the consumer. There is alot more to come from them!

Someone who bought the Blu-ray was really unhappy with their purchase:

This product is disappointing from Sony. It is a very low end product; the load times for movies are 2-4 minutes.
Options for screen control are limited. Even though I have a wide screen T.V. (50 inch plasma), it does not fill the screen with the picture. You get the picture with a couple of inches of blank spae below and above the picture.
I have worked with tech support and all options and no resolution to the problem.

BluRay should be great, this is just another piece of junk.

More reactions from buyers here:
http://www.buzzillions.c...an-bluray-movie-reviews/

Just because your TV is huge doesn't mean it matches the aspect ration of what you are watching.

if the picture is reaching the sides to the left and right, and the people don't look fat, or squished, but have the right ratio, then the only way to get rid of those lines is either to

1.keep the aspect the same and increase the size of the image to fit top and bottom, but the sides will go off screen so your image overall is cropped.

2. lose the aspect ration and stretch top to bottom and make everything thinner than it should be.

most (all?) good TV's will let you change between scaling modes so if you don't mind 4:3 aspect stretched to fit 16:9 and fat people, or 2.39:1 stretched to fit 16.9 and over thin looking people, or your picture cropped in some way, that's up to you, otherwise, you have to put up with borders.

Just bought an Hd-DVD Player for 199 from BB. About three days before Warners' announcement. I have an older 1080i rear projection that looked fantastic with my pitifully small library of HD disks, heh. Oh well, it's not too bad. Colors and overall sharpness are improved on my regular dvds. If you can get a Toshiba at going out of business prices they might be worth it for the up convert alone. BR might be something to look at later when pricing comes down under a 100 on a deck or 60 for a pc drive. Besides, now HD is done might as well wait for the cheap writeable decks and those will be three years down the road. Sorry Hollyrock, those dvd sales aren't looking so hot for a long while.

So are they saying that they would have launched the PS3 without a Blu Ray drive were it not for the early HD DVD rollout?

Or would they have delayed the PS3 launch another year, thereby giving Microsoft a two year headstart with the Xbox 360?

I would really like an answer to this :)

I agree completely with you. They are blaming their own problems/failings on HD DVD. This is typical Sony crap, like saying people would flock to the PS3 even if it didn't have games at launch, or including rootkits because most people don't know what they are. Sony SUCKS!!!

I hate that HD DVD is dead, but any Sony lovers out there are going to get nicely screwed, but thats ok, its Toshiba's fault....

"They knew what they were getting into"

This statement translates directly into "We couldn't care less about screwing over our loyal customers. We don't care about them, we never have. All we really care about is taking their money, as fast as possible and as often as possible. Anything else is totally irrelevent"

Funny how they are now wanting to put stickers on their new movies to tell customers important information about them but yet they didn't lift a finger put one single "sticker" on any of their early blu-ray players warning customers about how they wouldn't be able to upgrade to the new BD profiles. Funny how that works out, isn't it?

It's because in their eyes they've "officially" won the format war. Now, their arrogance starts to show in full force.

And you know, I don't even mind if they want to put players out on the market that can't later be updated to supporting the latest BD profile. That's fine. I am perfectly fine with that. But if you are going to do that, as a manufacturer, you have a profound responsibility to your customers to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is entirely aware of that fact BEFORE they spend their hard earned money on one of your devices. To just bury it in the specs in the back of the manual or put it somewhere obsucure on your web site does NOT cut it and it does NOT get you off the hook. Don't even start to think that it does.

All Sony and the other Blu-Ray makers would have had to do is put a nice big orange sticker on the outside of each box clearly telling customers what it was they were getting themselves into with these units before they bought them. They elected not to do that.

This was clearly a MATERIAL and SIGNIFICANT point that every customer had the right to know BEFORE they spent their hard earned dollars on one of these players. These manufacturers chose not to do that (or something very similar to that) of their own free will, and for that reason alone, I say that they have sacraficed all credibility with the people that pay ALL of their bills: their customers.

The consumer backlash against Blu-ray is going to be huge, and might switch them off of HD players and towards hard drive based HD content.

Give Microsoft another year with the 360 XBLM and we'll see how the HD format war is coming along.

Nobody complained when "Stereo", VHS Hi-Fi, Super-VHS were added to VHS platform. Nobody complained when Laser Disc players added Digital Audio and CD capabilities to the platform. Nobody complained when DTS was later added to the DVD platform. Nobody complained when 480P Component...DVI...HDMI...were added later to the DVD platform. Everyone was pleased that these features were being added, and at a price that was lower than their original purchase. Nobody will have to worry about being able to "watch" a movie on their 1.0 or 1.1 player. If they want to add the functionality to do PIP, etc., with Profile 2.0, they can upgrade their Blu-Ray player when the prices fall...and they will! Newer capabilities will be added to the Blu-Ray format, just like they have been added to all the other video formats for years. People will be happy with the new features and the lower prices. Software will drop in price too and functionality will be added as well. Best of all, every Blu-Ray player sold will play DVDs and upconvert them for backward compatibility. Blu-Ray is here to stay. HD-DVD gave it a good shot, but the majority of consumers have spoken. Let's move on.

I will say that you mention very valid points about enhancements to previous formats. Bravo.

However, I do not believe the majority of consumers have spoken. The majority of studios have apparently spoken for us.

It's a fact that Blu-Ray discs have been selling almost 3 times more than HD-DVD ones.
And Blu-Ray burners are falling in price (LG latest Blu-Ray burner with HD-DVD reading capability is selling for less than $350-400 now) pretty quickly as well as BD-R 25GB single layer media ($12 and falling). And that is thanks to many early adopters and more new customers that prefer Blu-Ray over HD-DVD.

One small correction, and that depends on where you live, aredo.

Here in the U.S., Blu-ray title sales have consistently led HD DVD by nearly a 2:1 ratio, and that is fact. That is not "almost 3 times more".

I like your points too good work.
Except that hardly FRACTION of consumers have spoken about either format yet.

In all of those times they weren't playing catch up. These features did not exist whenever the player was created. This is not the case here. Also I am not sure, but I don't think that they knew the features were coming, nor did they come this soon.

"HD-DVD gave it a good shot, but the majority of consumers have spoken. Let's move on."

No, the studios spoke. Consumers had very little say, and still do.

Yes, but this has to do with the possibility that your Blu-ray player *WILL NOT PLAY NEW MOVIES AT ALL* due to a non-functional implementation of BD-J and insufficiently built hardware.

Consumers have NOT spoken. STUDIOS have spoken. STUDIOS have moved into the Blu-Ray camp, primarily because Sony has paid them millions to support Blu-Ray.

Your original-release DVD player will play modern DVDs fine. Your original-release Blu-Ray player will very likely *NOT* play future releases without stuttering, skipping, frame-dropping...

Since Blu-Ray encryption can be updated at any time, your original player may not play any new movies *AT ALL*.

That's because most of what you are talking about is either backwards compatible or did affect anyone. I could still play a DVD movie with DD5.1 even if it had DTS on the disc as well. Admit it, the BR group shafted early adopters buy putting out a platform too early. Ironically this is exactly what Sony complained about with the console war with Microsoft saying that they started the next generation too quickly.

Also, compared to regular DVD sales both HD formats combined are a drop in the bucket.

Which means nothing, people were telling the same when the DVD was introduced on the market.. there were people like you telling that VHS tapes would have lasted till 2010 or more... Nowadays we live the proof of how silly those statements really were.

"Nobody complained when "Stereo", VHS Hi-Fi, Super-VHS were added to VHS platform. Nobody complained when Laser Disc players added Digital Audio and CD capabilities to the platform. Nobody complained when DTS was later added to the DVD platform. Nobody complained when 480P Component...DVI...HDMI...were added later to the DVD platform. Everyone was pleased that these features were being added, and at a price that was lower than their original purchase."

Interesting and well thought out point. I'd like to point out the differences that make it invalid though.

The things you listed were an 'evolution' of the existing technology. Most (if not all) were not announced just months after the launch of those technologies, they were included as they were developed...in some cases years later.

PIP and Ethernet/web connectivity, on the other hand, are not new technologies. As illustrated by their inclusion in HD DVD, at launch, they were viable from the start. It's obvious from comments by the BDA that these were things intended to be included from the start, but they were dropped...with the intention of including them later...from the start. By originally hiding this fact, they misled their consumers.

"...but the majority of consumers have spoken." With all due respect, no they haven't; and that's one of the problems with this format war. Had both formats co-existed with equal support from all studios, and BR were still the leader, I'd agree with you. However, by choosing sides the studios...and not the consumers...have decided which tech should be in any HD living room.

I agree, I hate Sony as a company. I do like Blu Ray as a technoglogy, though. I really didn't care about this stupid format war. However, according to Sony, consumers didn't speak, so we get what we deserve.

It's even cheekier than that, they shipped movies that faked PIP by having 2 video tracks that got swapped between, one with the in picture video hardcoded, and made out like their system was as capable as hd-dvd.knowing that when real PIP support was added, the dual track disks would stop, and all 1.0 player purchasers would have to upgrade.

they've used every trick they can to push bluray out there, and HD-DVD dedicated players still out sold them, even a small majority of PS3 owners don't even realize it's a bluray devicem they still have market penetration though, though not as much as the 360's hddvd drive. The movie studios want to end things fast, and the most DRM encumbered system still appeals more to the studio antiquated business model.

NO big business decided you forget to mention that people didnt need to buy new hardware to enjoy those enhancements that the big debacle with blu ray players is that you spent all this money on a useless product. Because new blu ray disc will not properly function in old blu ray players and dont bring up laser disc no more that not a good look

get your finger out of your a...

Why do you believe old blu-ray players won't function properly?
They won't have the extras, but they will do what they were made for - PLAYING g** d***ED MOVIES!
You claim they won't be able to do so?
You say big businesses decided it's going to be blu-ray and not consumers? well when the big businesses see that they sell 3 to 9 times more blu-ray discs than hd-dvd discs, they won't be prone to keep selling one of them at a loss, will they?

that's right! blu-ray movies have been outselling hd-dvds by the multiples and that's what made all those studios turn blu-ray exclusive. unlike the famous $120M pay-offs we've all heard of on the other side.

*yawn*

Possibility of Profile 2.0 discs not functioning properly in Profile 1.0 or 1.1 Blu-ray players. This has been covered extensively here (even in this very article) and on other sites.

Multiples of what... one? Here in the U.S. they have only managed nearly a 2:1 lead over HD DVD. Again, covered several times here and elsewhere.

$120 million... I guess it's not that famous if you cannot seem to get your imaginary figure correct with the popular version of the lie that the rest of the Smurfs pass around. This has been debunked and never proven... here, elsewhere, everywhere. Try again. If you can manage to prove it, you'd be the first. Imagine how famous you'd be... I say go for it!

only 2:1 in america ?
well i'm talking about worldwide, because I don't give a damn about america. i won't go there unless i get a job offering from Ubisoft or another big gaming company. that is, after I graduate in my current university.
a "possibility" that profile 2.0 discs won't function properly on 1.0 players means it won't have any of the extras. again get your biased american mind together. blu-ray was meant to win, because it offers the consumer what he wants. I can't really imagine downloading a full hd movie from with my (average) internet connection, so online support isn't really what determines the winner.

again Blu-ray outsells HD-DVD worldwide and that's what made Warner turn Blu-ray exclusive.

Speculation, plain and simple... but I do respect your opinion.

I would definitely like to believe that's the real reason why Warner made their decision, but there are plenty of experts in the industry that suggest otherwise.

And yes, it is also hopeful speculation that all BD-Live discs will work at all in Profile 1.0 players... that is, if it does not have a PlayStation 3 logo on it. That does not pertain to just extras.

But we can disagree, and life still goes on. :)

A previous poster makes a really good point here. What Sony and the Blu-ray camp have chosen to do recently makes a very strong case for not buying ANY manufacturer's Blu-ray player and sticking with a simple, reliable, stable standard upconverting DVD player that can be purchased now for one SIXTH the price of a new Blu-ray player.

Nice work guys. Way to shoot your collective selves in the foot here. Well done. Very impressive.

Yep... that's why the Oppo DV-980H will get a lot of use in the next one or two years (possibly even longer) in my home.

You don't know what you are talking about, really. Do you own a HDTV 720p or 1080p plasma,LCD panel or a projector ? If yes then watching upscaled SDTV content on it is a realy waste compared to watching full 1080p content. The difference is huge and if you haven't watched a few hours of movies and such on a properly setup display/equipment you obviously can't see the difference.

Funny that you suggest that one of the most knowledgeable and level-headed members of this forum doesn't know what he's talking about, considering that he deals with this technology on a daily basis, and more importantly, deals with the consumers of said technology.

Perhaps most importantly, he knows what he's talking about within the context of the "big picture"... and that is, most people are (or, like myself, will be) happy up-converting their vast library of existing DVDs until they are convinced that their hard-earned dollars aren't wasted on a Blu-ray player that may not be able to play all of the features on any Blu-ray disc released in the future.

I can say with honesty I noticed the difference in shops. But upscaled dvd still looked somewhat impressive to me too, the difference isn’t enough to make me go out and spend s***loads on getting a ‘decent’ player on either side

i bought a cheap upconvert phillips from walmart and tried same movie upconverted and without and couldn't see any difference at all. tried the same thing with my a20 and i will say it is a vast improvement over sd dvd or atleast enough of one to keep me content until the bda pulls there collective head's out of there arses and finalizes all there profiles...

Which means nothing. Telling people that any upscaled SDTV video would look the same or better than a true HDTV 1080p one is a silly statement.

The only time I have noticed that 1080p REALLY stands out and looks bloody impressive is on very large TV's
Other than those its easy to see why people dont see a worth while improvement.

I agree... which is probably why nobody made such a silly statement.

He is not saying that. What he was saying is the majority of people are happy with their 480p DVDs until they know that their player is not going to become obsolete in a few months.

Also hate to burst your bubble, but 1080p is severely over hyped. Unless you are sitting really close on a really big TV you can not even tell the difference from 720p, and even then you may still not be able to.

You might not notice any difference between 720p and 1080p BUT people do see the huge quality difference.
It's like telling that on a PC monitor, nowadays all LCDs practically, there would be no difference between 640x480 and 1024x768 resolution... and that no one would notice.

This is pretty misleading. If that was the case then now we would all still be using 640x480 and 800x600 resolutions only on PC monitors. There would have been no need for manufacturers to push CRTs capable of more than a resolution of 1600x1200 pixels in the past. And at the time the biggest screens were in the 24inches range... far from big. Did people not notice a huge difference between a 640x480 capable CRT dispaly and a 1280x1024 one, perhaps ? Even on small CRT 17" and 19" the difference was pretty huge. All professionals were buying very expensive CRTs like the EIZO and Sony Trinitron monitors that were capable of those high resolutions at high refresh rates.

Using LCD monitors is an incredibly bad example to use when comparing the quality differences between different resolutions, especially on a PC.

They are designed for one specific optimal native resolution, and when not using that resolution, the detail and quality of the on-screen images goes down the crapper.

Likewise with your comment, simply because you claim that you can see a "huge quality difference" does not mean that most people can.

I'm sure that since so many people are deciding to simply upconvert their existing DVD library as opposed to purchasing a Blu-ray or HD DVD player suggests they do not see a "huge" difference between upconverted standard-definition material and true HD... let alone a "huge" difference between 720p and 1080p.

I am not claiming the difference does not exist, for it truly does. However, anyone who claims that it is a huge difference is in the minority. Otherwise, I believe we would see a much faster transition to true HD players versus upconverting SD players than there is right now.

The vast majority of consumers are not video- or audiophiles, and cares not for trivial things such as compression artifacts. The tremendous market for digital music downloads should be proof of that.

Miketechno said nothing of the sort. He pointed out that until the BDA has profile 2.0 players on the market (and all of the bugs worked out of the system), that it might be a wiser choice to stick with an upconverting DVD player. The technology has been proven sound over the last 8+ years.

It may not have the same picture quality as a BR disc, but until the BDA sorts itself out, and finally has a completed product on the market, why would any sane consumer pay to test their 'staged' feature release?

"That's changed in the last couple of years. Most 1080p sets are now capable of fully resolving 1080i and 1080p material. But that hasn't altered our views about 1080p TVs. We still believe that when you're dealing with TVs 50 inches and smaller, the added resolution has only a very minor impact on picture quality. On a regular basis in our HDTV reviews, we put 720p (or 768p) sets next to 1080p sets, then feed them both the same source material, whether it's 1080i or 1080p, from the highest-quality Blu-ray and HD DVD players. We typically watch both sets for a while, with eyes darting back and forth between the two, looking for differences in the most-detailed sections, such as hair, textures of fabric, and grassy plains. Bottom line: It's almost always very difficult to see any difference--especially from farther than 8 feet away on a 50-inch TV."

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6810011-1.html

Maybe not the most reliable source on the net, but they have valid points. Hate to break it to you aredo, but 1080p is nothing but a way to get more money out of the consumers pocket unless it is bigger than 50in(which most peoples TVs are not).

If they are backing out I see Paramount and Dreamworks continuing to support (Not push) HD-DVD, but I would imagine that you will see them getting their hands into BLU-Ray as well and eventually after "Fore filling their Obligation" pushing into the BLU-Ray Market.

I still think HD-DVD can have a purpose (Storage Media, Games for XBOX 360, Etc. Verbatim just announced the release of HD-DVD-R AND RW Discs, 15GB in 30 Minutes) things of that nature. But with that Microsoft even stated that they woudl put a BR Drive in the 360. Lets remember, Microsoft is a software compnay, not Hardware. It may have thier name on it, but they

would rather have soemone else build the XBOX360 and they will just deal with the games. They lose $$$ on every 360 they product, but the game is almost entirely profit.

I own a PS3, but own no BLU-Ray movies. I really wanted to see what was going to happen before I started spending $$$ on something that was either going to be the next wave or a Collectors Item.

I would think by XMAS 2008 their current library of BLU-Ray Titles which is small in both the Movie and Game Genre's will be expansive with what has happened.

BLU-Ray is still an expensive media market overall (Players, Recordable Drives, Media). And now that a decision has more or less been made, BLU-Ray will be in Demand and when there is a Demand, the prices will stay High.

The $399 PS3 is still the Value Item in the BLU-Ray player market when you think of it, and this will push that as well.

The PS3's 1.2 Million in Sales over the 2007 Holiday Season helped make this decision for the Movie Studios. The WII can't play BLU-Ray / HD-DVD or Regular DVDs. XBOX needs an accessory to play HD-DVD's. PS3 is ready to go on all fronts and is updateable when new Firmware comes out unlike most Home Player Units.

Overall, Media failures on one front do find homes on others. When the DVD came out we all wrote off CD's when in fact it was not DVD at all that is making CD's go away, Broadband is what is making CD's go away.

BLU-Ray can take one lesson from HD-DVD, soem HD-DVD Sets comes with the HD Version on one side of the Disc and the Standard DVD on the other. BLU-Ray should consider this as well rather then making 35 Editions of each movie.

Actually the cost of Blu-Ray movies, blank recordable media and hardware is way lower than that of DVD units just a few years ago. And prices kept falling and are going to fall at a faster pace than what happened to DVDs. This despite the fact that while DVD was a single standard and there was no format wars going on, the Blu-Ray had to get accepted by customers and the BDA alliance with Sony as its leader had to estabilish a customer base in order to win the format war.
Both me and another 4 friends of mine bought a PS3 each for watching BD movies on plasma, LCD panels and projectors. Just me and one out of those 4 added an XBox360 HD-DVD addon drive to our HTPCs for buying and watching some exclusive to HD-DVD movies like Transformers, Bourne trilogy, Heroes. But we never invested much into HD-DVD movies, whenever a Blu-Ray version was available we bought it, although the Warner releases have been practically the same on both formats so far, but now I hope they are going to make full use of the available space and higher allowed bitrates.

Blu-ray has consistently outsold HD DVD in software sales around the world. Never in 1½ years has there been a serious claim that Blu-ray has won the format war until this past weekend when Warner announced abandonment of HD DVD. All of a sudden, news sites the world over started declaring "the writing's on the wall", and "the death knell has been sounded".

The studios decided the outcome of this format war, no differently than the war between Betamax and VHS. The fact that Blu-ray only managed a steady 2:1 lead over HD DVD, coupled with the fact that HD DVD stand-alone players consistently outsold Blu-ray stand-alone units by a large margin in retail and online sales suggested strong demand for HD DVD in the U.S. by serious movie enthusiasts.

Consumers apparently had little say in the outcome of this format war. Large sums of cash and under-handed tactics by large corporations are usually great determining factors.

And for you the fact that Blu-Ray titles sold twice as much as HD-DVD ones means nothing ?
Toshiba didn't sell more HD-DVD players than BD ones on the market, even if you took into account the XBox360 add-on. You can't forget the PS3 units, that's where the Blu-Ray customer base is, everyone bought the PS3 for watching BD movies other than gaming.

WRONG! Most people bought a PS3 for the games.(Which they aren't buying that many of either) Then considering the fact that it already has a Blu-Ray player they thought they might as well use it. Some didn't even use it and the attach rate clearly shows this. I have used my PS3 for Blu-Ray exclusives just like any normal person would do, but that is not what I bought it for. So hate to burst your bubble, but people aren't choosing Blu-Ray. They are being forced to buy it in order to get their game console.

*pen drops*

Actually aredo the menu system is really cool. Once u used it you wonder how you lived without it. Thats why I prefered HDDVD until blueray profile 1.1. The internet part is way overrated but menus a def most have.

I prefer having a low quality static menu and even no menu at all to getting a lower bitrate main feature movie on the disc.

No one other than Microsoft/Toshiba employees and supporters really care about interactive features.
Way less than 10% of people using DVD players actually watch any making-of and/or behind the scenes special features.
What really matters is video and audio quality and Blu-Ray discs and format allow for the best results, way better than what HD-DVD could ever provide.

What Sony and the BDA really have to add to Blu-Ray specifications, maybe with the next 2.1 specs or 2.5 maybe... is full support for upcoming 4-layer 100GB Blu-Ray and 6-layer 200GB Blu-Ray discs. The BD specs should be updated to allow for way higher overall muxed bitrates at that point, 1080p 60Hz H.264 support should be added as well.
These are the kind of things that the BDA and Sony must add.

"Way less than 10% of people using DVD players actually watch any making-of and/or behind the scenes special features."

I agree with you on that statement. I rarely, if ever, looked at any bonus material (not including deleted scenes) on a DVD.

However, HD DVD changed that for me. By making it interactive (via PIP or the 'In Movie Experience'), some of that material became interesting. I'll admit that it started as a novelty (that 'check this out' kind of thing), but in a short time, it became something that I genuinely appreciated having. I'm not going to claim to watch every single piece put on a disc, but I do look at a much larger portion of it then I did on S-DVD.

Blu-ray (prior to 1.1) offered me nothing of the sort. All of the extra content sat on the disc, in a similar fashion as it did on DVD...which means that it largely went unwatched.

Both formats claimed to offer a next gen movie experience, and until recently, only HD DVD delivered more than the same content as DVD, with a better picture.

"Way less than 10% of people using DVD players actually watch any making-of and/or behind the scenes special features."

Way less than 10%? Where do you get that figure? The extras are the bread and butter for the DVD sellers. It allows them to re-release special editions over and over. Disney, as one example, is a master of this. You may get dizzy at all that new resolution, there it's only part of the story. The extras aren't going anywhere. Besides, "way less than 10%" is a pretty dubious figure. I'd say a few more than that dare click over to all that extra "junk".

Exactly. That's why "double-dipped" DVD releases sell so well, time and time again.

Also remember that the blu-ray camp constantly bashed and downplayed hd-dvd’s interactive superiority – until they caught up.

1) Putting the extras/special features on an additional disc allows for higher video/audio bitrates for the main feature on the first disc. This ensures an higher quality overall, that's the main reason why people prefer studios putting any extra feature on additional discs.
2) Special features 2-disc releases are collector's items and as such they can sell more--at least to those wanting to collect originals instead of downloading ripped and DiVX downscaled versions.

Exactly. I may not always look at all the special features, but I pretty much always look at the deleted/extended scenes.

Rubish, one has more space per layer, the other can do the same with more layers, so what.

and HD movies are far, far smaller than the disc capacity, and will remain so till long after even 1080p is surpassed.

visual and audio quality wise they're both as capable as each other, they are only seperated by features, and bluray is playing catchup on that and shafting their early customers in the process.

Yea right!!! All I have to say is I KNEW what you people were going to see from day 1, that why I didn't buy them at all. My uncle fell for this garbage even with me telling him he is wasting his money, Just get a doubler and be happy with what you have... But NOOOO he had to spend $1400 on a Panasonic machine that has now had to be updated manually at least 5 times for new movies to work on it, and each time it gets more and more unstable. Lucky if the thing loads up at all anymore...

Sorry but this mess is Betamax all over again. Oh buy this machine its the best, wait no 6months later no no it was an early adopter thing get this instead but you people that paid a fourtune on the platform cant see it unless you buy a new machine now. Oh wait, Next year we will have other options that will play it all plus another new feature. So Wait for it...

Bla bla bla blady bla.. Whatever...

Do yourself a favor stay away from ANY of these, and get yourself a good line doubler or video scaler for your DVD. The media is cheaper and the machines are stead fast and proven. Problem solved.

This is your superior format people? Get a clue. You will be able to add your BluRay players to your collection of UMDs, Betas, MiniDisc. They don't care about you. Since you can't really enjoy all of your features on your disc, instead of buying a $700+ bluRay 2.0, buy a $200 HDDVD and I promise you will get all of those features and the capability of getting new features with the internet connectivity. Always has been that way always will.

"Early adopters knew what they were getting into"

Are you freaking kidding me? I can guarantee you that is a lie because I sold many of those early adopeters their new $900 to $1,200 Blu-ray players at the retail store I work at and I can assure you that not one of them had any clue they were going to get screwed over like they are now finding out they will be with no upgrade path on their players to support the new features of the new discs.

These people never expected this to happen to them and the manufacturer's made no effort what so ever to inform them of this at the time. They kept this as quiet as they possibly could so as not to scare away any of those first early (suckers) customers. Why? Because they were greedy and the just wanted their money. Pure and simple.

Message to Blu-ray manufacturers: you have totally screwed your loyal customers over in a way that was shady, underhanded and totaly UNNECESSARY! You deserve every single bit of public backlash you will now be getting from your customers for doing this to them.

Likewise, Profile 2.0 is expected to arrive in October bringing Internet connectivity that Profile 1.1 players lack.

Then that settles it. I'm not even considering purchasing a Blu-ray player until next holiday season... no exceptions. In the meantime, I'll be happy up-converting DVD titles, as I'm sure millions of other people will be.

I will not be purchasing a game console that does not impress me just to be able to watch movies simply because it may have the greatest (or only) chance of being upgradeable.

I just realized something here...

It's almost as though the BDA is proud of the fact that they're releasing equipment that needs to be upgraded annually.

I still don't get it why HD-DVD are so much cheaper than Blu-ray:
http://www.pricefad.com/...;smooth=w&n=Blu-ray Player&u=priceguru&n2=HD DVD Player&u2=priceguru

The last paragraph in this article is shows how Stupid Blu-Ray partners really are. They blame HD DVD for releasing a complete finished spec Hi Def player so they had no choice but to release incomplete buggy Blu-Ray players? LOL give me a break, LOL

Their Arrogance is Bliss.

Wrong newer Blu-Ray movies based on profile 2.0 will have compatability problems with Blu-Ray players based on profile 1.0.

Expect many slow downs & very slow movie load times if you plan on buying newer profile 2.0 movies on older & current BD players.

This is why HD DVD is a far more superior Hi Def format which is 100% consumer friendly & compatable with past, present & future products & players.

this is so f***ing stupid. A blu ray movie will play in any blu ray player no matter what "profile" it is. The only thing older players won't show is some of the new special features they'll begin adding, but the movie will still play just fine. This sounds like HD-dvd fans trying to counteract blu-rays recent success by making a big deal out of nothing.

It really is nothing more than a bad attempt at getting negative spin about Blu out in the wild to counter the many, many, positive news.

Oh, here's another positive.
HBO joins New Line and Warner to BLU exclusivity. But this one was also expected.

Did you even read the article? It appears that you didn't I suppose you a designer of the system and know what it can and can not do, didn't think so.

Thats also part of the problem, All those so called special features will be an excuse for the studios to charge EVEN MORE for their content then they already do for BluRay disc (Already too High IMHO) and a majority of people will not be able to see it anyhow with the 1.0 1.1 players. So why should that be forced on the public then?

And sorry but My uncles 1.0 system already is buggy as all hell with the latest disc. Freeze ups and Pauses, Skips, and complete lockups are common anymore with every subsequent newer title. The old stuff still plays like a dream sure. but all the new titles are buggy as all hell. and like I said its got to be the 5th time he has had to update the firmware manually. And each time it gets worse and worse.

I feel sorry for anyone that bought a gen 1 player now. Knowing what they are intending, its just not right for a consumer to have to pay pay pay and just when they have paid out the nose so much it bleeds the make you pay yet again.

Time Warner is HBO, Warner Bros., and New Line. That means that HBO, New Line, Paramount, Warner Bros. (aka Cerberus), 20th Century Fox, Disney, Sony, MGM, and Lionsgate all either support Blu Ray or don't support HD-DVD.

Awesome.

the worst of all this is these people seeing all of disney's blu ray ads that don't have a clue about all these profiles they are the one's really getting screwed. don't feel sorry for the fanboy crowd but sony shouldn't have been allowed to have these sitting on retail shelves without some kind of clear warning to the average consumer that future hardware updates could be required for future releases

It will turn into a class action suit as soon as they start noticing that they can't play content.

Sony shoud be used to those by now. It is kind of their busniess model anymore.

So true...

you know i'm not really invested that much in hd-dvd around $300 i'd guess so i'm not really at much of a loss finicially but i just dont think i would want a bluray player for quite some time. not just the profile problems just seems like there's been alot of people on avs having problems getting some movies to play, frame sync and various other issues that i don't see people have on hd-dvd... i'm not an enthuisist by any means only reason i know anything about it at all is because of betanews then i jumped on the $99 deal (that and i just wouldn't want to be on the same side of the fence as joey/steve/dave). home theater wise i might have 1000 between tv and surround sound i'm just an average consumer trying to get hd on a low budget and i'm happy with what i got for now. i really don't understand at all why hollywood would back a technology that someday could be better but as of yet isn't? man i'd give anything to find out the real reason they are backing blu

That's the kind of honesty that I respect.

In a lot of ways, I'm in the same position as you are. I have a bit more invested in my home theater gear (but not by more than $300, I'd wager). If anything, the format war turned me into an enthusiast.

There are a few reasons most of Hollywood went for BR. Fox wanted the extra layers of DRM that Blu provided. Sony (like them or not) is a mastermind at marketing. Warner...well according to them, it's the price of gas...who knows.

I've always been a bit picky when it comes to buying a movie in either format. If there's a release on HD DVD that I want, I'll pick it up, for as long as they're on the shelves. If there's a clearance sale on players, I'll grab one (and keep it in storage right next to my laserdisc player :)).

When (if?) BR gets its act together, and has a finalized format, I'll consider it. If BR starts to make serious inroads into the mainstream, I'll pay attention to it. With a few rare exceptions, BR hasn't shown me what HD DVD has, and until it does (and HD DVD is no longer available), upconversion is going to be the way I go.

i'm there with you 5 movies i'm picking up this weekend and that's probably it for me unless we see some clearance stuff or new releases that are worth spending the money on... the other reason i've never been to excited about either format seems like most of the movies released aren't worth paying the extra just to have them in hidef most of the movies made me wonder why they even bothered bringing them to hidef

"In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0. This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly."

Now please everyone sit back and read this quote from the Sony stand.

Would this quote have been needed if

A) They were sure all players would be ok

or

B) whether there is a "perhaps" or "maybe" there it doesnt matter they, and don't forget THEY are the people who should know, dont know.

I can't ever recall Toshiba saying they weren't sure an HDDVD player wouldnt play a movie.

DONT SUCCUMB TO THE SONY SPIN

I wish before the wars, studios just treated hd-dvd and BD as "platforms", rather than "formats". I mean we have ps3/wii/xbox 360, and you can put the same game on any of those formats, each tailored or specialized to the hardware. Why can't movies be the same? I meean eventually, years down the line, dual format drives will become a commodity, and can easily be incorporated into xbox360II or ps3II. Can you imagine if EA or Activision was contracted to only make games for one machine and not the other? I don't think they would get away with that, or generate the kind of revenue as supporting multiple formats. After all it's a business, and the money is in software not hardware.

On another note, does anyone know if a dual format PC drive needs to have firmware updated to handle future BD profiles, or is that handled by the decoding software (power dvd)?

Ironically it's a lot cheaper for movie studios to support both formats than it is for game developers. It's just an accepted cost of doing business in the games industry, but it really does seem childish for movie studios not to do the same. Then again by doing so they essentially ensure the continuation of the format war. It's not pretty for anyone, but for the studios the real winner matters little, it's the end of the war they want most, and that will come about most quickly by supporting only one format.

A war that never should have been, if industry was smart enough to truly understand the ramifications of such a thing. And for Sony to admit that they rushed a product to market just because of HD DVD is just icing on the cake. For shame on HD DVD for releasing a finished spec and the true follow up format to DVD by design.

Maybe congress needs to make a LAW that will help the customer not the companies that are trying to protect there media biz thru there hardware biz??? The gov saw the need to standardize DTV. This would stop the need for 2-3 formats..

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and confusion from Nate and the commenters here. Let me clear things up here as best I can.

ANY Blu-ray movie WILL play in ANY Blu-ray player.

Way back in October when BD-J (java) was mandated in all new players, there were questions about whether or not a BD-J movie will play in a non BD-J player... It has since then been discovered that all BD-J movies will in fact play in ANY player. All the early speculations where just that; speculations.

The ONLY thing early players will lack is the abilities to do internet interactivity and/or PiP. Though the content of the PiP will be available through the main menu.

While reading the story above don't forget to read this paragraph...
"BDA President Andy Parsons echoed that sentiment at the Blu-ray press conference Monday, telling BetaNews that it's normal for new technology to change and older hardware to become obsolete. HE ADDED THAT EARLY BLU-RAY OWNERS CAN CONTINUE TO DO EVERYTHING THEY COULD IN THE BEGINNING: WATCH MOVIES IN HIGH-DEFINITION."

And be sure to catch the key words in this sentence…
“This means that early players MAY have a buggy implementation and PERHAPS more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.

"MAY" "PERHAPS" - These are just speculations and nothing more. There is NOTHING concrete about these statements. So until proven otherwise, ALL MOVIES WILL PLAY IN ALL PLAYERS.

"The ONLY thing early players will lack is the abilities to do internet interactivity and/or PiP."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't internet connectivity required for BD+? My understanding is that it is. Having said that, doesn't that mean that anyone without internet connectivity will be forced to watch their "HD" movie at SD resolution?

No I don't think so. I don't know much about BD+ but I did find this out...

"Since BD+ Content Code is delivered via the disc, an internet connection is not required and the BD+ platform works in offline environments while respecting the privacy of legitimate consumers."
From: http://www.cryptography....nology/spdc/bluray.html

So to answer your question... No internet connectivity is not required and the movie will play back in HD.

Again, the "PERHAPS" refers to the "more importantly", not to the "they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly."

Look at the sentence structure. You can claim all day that they are wrong in that statement, but saying the statement itself implies possibilities instead of fact only shows your lack of ability to decode proper sentence structure.

...and you're stuck on this part of the article. Repeating the same incorrect interpretation of the sentence over and over again...

Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

The code is meaningless to non BD+ players, is it not?

If recognition of the code is required to play the content, all non BD+ players will be unable to play *any* BD+ content.

Again I'm not an expert in BD+, but I don't think it works that way. From what I gather from the link above and other sites when I googled "BD+"; BD+ is just another layer of security within the disc itself. Players themselves don't have to be BD+ certified (or whatever its called).

Much like regular DVD movies that are shipped with various layers of securities. Players don't matter.

If you have a link that says otherwise I would love to read it so that I may be more familiar with how it works.

See below...

They knew what they were getting into, I don't care how you spin this there's someone farked right there. Also add to the fact they need to put special stickers so movie-goers know what they won't be able to play on their player, the point of a hd format is not only for it to look better but to implement all the cool things that were promised.

While internet connectivity may be required in the future, there are titles currently available that do have the BD+ copy scheme.

That makes no sense though. What good is a layer of security that is ignored if the player can't read it?

Couldn't one just hack the firmware of *any* player to ignore it??

"ANY Blu-ray movie WILL play in ANY Blu-ray player"

Please point out where nate said this is not the case?
And I'm sorry if your too special to consider a disc that doesnt work 100% on any player is OK. I dont think thats acceptable for any consumer with half a brain.

Well, I can see why there are going to be a TON of VERY upset Blu-Ray early adopters. People who payed anywhere from $1,200 to $500 for their Blu-ray players are going to be quite angry with Sony when they find out about this...and rightfully so I think. It will be interesting to see how Sony tries to put some kind of a positive spin on this, if that is even possible.

I guess they will make their 10 million mark by screwing customers with obsolete players. Nice job. No wonder so many people loath $ony.

I think this is the most hilariously stupid thing that the Blu-Ray Partners have said/done:
Quote:
"When BetaNews asked why these manufacturers rushed out players that were not fully capable and potentially buggy due to their BD-J implementation, the Blu-ray partner pointed blame across the room to HD DVD. "We should have waited another year to introduce Blu-ray to the public, but the format war changed the situation,"

That's like someone starting a NASCAR race with a car that's missing a transmission and a roll cage, and then blaming the other drivers for having a fully assembled car on the racetrack and starting the race without them.

Yea ... gee ... that sux huh ?

Makes you wonder if the sony bashers have a point huh .. . I guess some need to get back shafted by sony quite a few times to get the point.

Thats a fairly bad analogy for this situation.

It makes sense to me, if your in a completely new market and your only competitor is ready to unveil to the public then you have to get your product in there or else the competition will be overly one-sided. As all the early adopters will only have one choice.

I see your point, but wouldn't it make more sense overall to stop pouring good money after bad on a problematic system, and try to find a way to work with the one that's complete and ready to go?

Sure you lose the immediate investment, but by avoiding releasing an incomplete product to the market, you stand to recoup that cash, and gain plenty more in the long run.

How is it a bad analogy?

HD-DVD forum put out a format that was FEATURE COMPLETE and READY for market.

Blu-Ray wasn't finished yet so they put out buggy players with a bad implementation of features at a HIGHER cost, and you find my analogy "fairly bad"???

I think it's Spot-ON for what happened.

Blaming the competition (HD-DVD) for you (Blu-Ray) not being ready to play the game isn't their fault, it's yours (Blu-Ray) for not being ready!

That's how business is supposed to work, you try to beat the competition to market with a completed product. Why is it HD-DVD's fault for the "format war" when Sony has a HISTORY of staying out of standards and muddying the market with their own? SPDIF and CD are the glaring exceptions to that rule, but then we have BetaMax, MiniDisc, Memory Stick, UMD to prove it.

Thank god the DivX/DVD war ended FAST after people realized how bad the DivX format sucked for consumers in general.

Blu-Ray will never be in my home. EVER. I will stay with DVD upconverted before I'll trust Sony ever again. Rootkits, DRM, artificially high prices through their shady licensing, hell, have you ever seen how they screw up MMORPG's? SWG? EQ? Sony is very anti-consumer in a lot of ways.

I left EQ after 4 expansions. I should have left after the first...

I guess they learned their lesson with the PS3 vs Xbox. The problem is that in doing these changes now, they are violating good faith. DVD doesn't have backwards compatibility problems; at least not like this. You can pretty much put a DVD from today and put it in an early version DVD player, and it's kosher.

New features, so be it. But movie backwards compatibility is expected!

Drumcat, don't let this story fool you.

Backwards compatibility has always, and will always be available.

The only thing that might get lost is the ability to do special features like internet interactivity.

"In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0. This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly."

The only people promising that the movie itself will still be accessable, are the BDA. I'm sorry, but with the public statements from Warner, at the end of last year (and Sony's attitude towards backwards compatibility in the PS3), people have the right to be skeptical.

Read what the article says. "In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0. This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly."

It might not have the power to play the films properly that is more than the extras you are talking about. Screw Sony and this crap. I hope they get sued.

"It might not have the power to play the films properly that is more than the extras you are talking about."

"might" "perhaps" - These are just speculations and nothing more. There is NOTHING concrete about these statements. So until proven otherwise, ALL MOVIES WILL PLAY IN ALL PLAYERS.

...and I quote:

they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.

No might there. No maybe there. The only perhaps in front of it refers to it being supposedly more important than the BD-J issues.

...special features that have been available on HD-DVD since it's initial release?

Oh, how special of them to allow us to pay more for that feature on a format that *already* costs more.

?? you can't quote something mid sentence. You are then redefining the meaning of what you quoted.

PERHAPS plays a big role in the sentece.
"This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly."

You sure love to sell teh spin

I thought in an earlier comment you said it would play all films, but now you use a quote that states it doesn't?

Hmm

No, you are incorerct.

The "Perhaps" modifies the "more importantly", and that is all. It does not in any way affect the implied possibility of "they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly".

Learn to decode sentence structure.

Now, that said, you are more than welcome to disagree with the fact that they indicate that it is a done deal that it will *not* play on older players as they provide no sources. But arguing the implied possibilities isn't helping you, when you've incorrectly interpreted it to begin with.

"the perhaps refers to it being possible more important, not to it being true or not."

Ok I see what you are getting at...

You are right about the PERHAPS, BUT, the MAY still refers the the entire sentence and not just the first part of it...

But ultimately regardless of sentence structure, it's still just speculating that the movies will not play.

You are right about the PERHAPS, BUT, the MAY still refers the the entire sentence and not just the first part of it...

Again, I disagree. (This is turning into an English class...)

The second "they" removes the application of the "may" to what follows. Had they said,

"This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly."

It would have applied. With the second "they", the modifiers before it no longer apply. This, of course, assumes they intended for the meaning they achieved, (and the whole sentence isn't an affront to proper grammar) which is debatable considering the nature of the topic...

But ultimately regardless of sentence structure, it's still just speculating that the movies will not play.

As no source is provided, I would have to agree. :)

Here's a fun one:

An English teacher gave his class the following sentence and told them to add the proper punctuation:

"Woman without her man is nothing"

The guys, overwhelmingly, made it into this:

"Woman, without her man, is nothing"

The girls, again overwhelmingly, made it into this:

"Woman: Without her, man is nothing."

Punctuation is everything. *grins*

Hehe I wish I had you as a english teacher 6 years ago :)

This has been fun! Please... continue! :)

"...(This is turning into an English class...)"

Hahahaha... This HAS been fun. With that Punctuation example... I admit defeat!

PC_Tool has officially schooled me!

PCT,
Gotta concede this one, quite brilliant! Are you sure you are not Scott, having a guffaw at the expense of we humble readers'?

I think the important point here for everyone - whether satisfied Blu-ray customer or not - is that such a cavalier attitude toward product quality and customer satisfaction is really unacceptable. Whether you support Blu-ray or not surely you must agree that such statements as the Blu-ray representatives apparently made are simply unacceptable. Maybe as an early adopter you personally have no problem with the features that were left out. But what if it was a different piece of electronics, a different device, and different feautures that were missing. Would you feel so cavalier about having to shell out another $1000 for those features that you wanted - features that could and should have been included in the original version (in this case as evidenced by what HDDVD apparently accomplished, and at a lower manufacturing cost)? Sure there have been problems like this before, but never have I seen such a nonchalant attitude from the perpretrating company/group. Unbelievable. I think it's a clear message that, no matter what format you support now, the companies involved in this alliance should not be trusted.

“whether satisfied Blu-ray customer or not - is that such a cavalier attitude toward product quality and customer satisfaction is really unacceptable.”

Precisely

When BetaNews asked why these manufacturers rushed out players that were not fully capable and potentially buggy due to their BD-J implementation, the Blu-ray partner pointed blame across the room to HD DVD. "We should have waited another year to introduce Blu-ray to the public, but the format war changed the situation," he said. HD DVD was already coming and the BDA had no choice but to launch Blu-ray.

Wow.

How awesome is that?

I'll be with DVD and HD-DVD until the last one is removed from the shelf.

Then? Then I'll go digital download.

No Sony for me.

That must be some tasty crow for all the BD fanatics who shouted "lies!" whenever everyone else claimed that Blu-ray was a rushed format.

While Blu-ray was rushed, and I feel it safe to say as a blu-ray owner, so was HD-DVD. Toshiba had and has alot to lose if the tech they are promoting falls by the wayside.

A large indication of that is the size and bitrates. I think if they had not rushed to beat out blu-ray they would have realized that a large size and more throughput would have benefited the format.

So to blanket blu-ray with greed like it seems many try to do, Toshiba and the DVD consortium are just as guilty and just as greedy as any one in the BR consortium.

Lets not fool ourselves here and try to make one look better then the other. Instead lets look at this war as what it is. Corporations fighting for profit with consumers in the middle. People who choose to back a format for whatever reason need to figure that the dollar is the one who wins in the end, not us.

This is amazing. So it's Toshiba's fault that the bluray format is not complete and it was released before it's time? I've never heard such a thing. I hope at the very least, if Paramount was thinking at all about switching to bluray these comments will make them think twice.

What this says to me is the following:

Blu-Ray was rushed to market with an unfinished (beta) product while HD-DVD was feature complete and ready to go, all because they had to get in the market so that HD-DVD didn't get a foothold before they did.

If that meant leaving features out that they knew would later become an issue for early adopters, then so be it, let the early adopters "pay" for being on the bleeding edge.

The problem with that kind of "planned obsolecence" is that it's the worst kind of "bait and switch" there is, and victimizes the very people that are your core business targets: technology-friendly people.

I saw this from the beginning: HD-DVD was ready to go, future-proof, backward compatible with DVD, with a fully thought-out and implemented feature set from the beginning. The real problem with Blu-Ray is that they left MAJOR features out (like Ethernet, which is unforgivable in today's connected world), versus the HD-DVD menuing system, and ethernet, etc...

So, in a nutshell: Blu-Ray didn't (and still doesn't) have an *affordable, feature complete product* out on the market in comparison to HD-DVD, which did, LONG before Sony.

We didn't NEED a format war. Sony could have jumped on the chance to work on a unified format instead of muddying the waters like they *always try to do* in order to get a monopoly on the market.

I can't imagine agreeing with a comment any more than I agree with yours right now. Well said... mirrors my sentiments exactly.

VERY well said.

My biggest issue with the early release of the format is: we're not talking about having to upgrade players 5+ years down the line. These were things discarded to get the players out asap. Worse still...even when it became public knowledge (at least in online communities) that these features would be implemented in the near future, profile 1.0 players were still being released...right up to the cut-off date.

I think it's rather telling that the BR die-hards are simply parroting these sentiments.

Right up to and after the cut-off date...

WeezulDK,
Quite brilliantly articaled, thank you!

My Blu-Ray Fanboy mate will no doubt find a way to put a positive spin on it.

If Blu-Ray wins the format war, that will be bad for consumers. Blu-Ray is proprietary, so the price of players and discs will always be artificially high. Blu-Ray is corporate friendly, not consumer friendly, meaning that Blu-Ray has much more copy protection schemes, so much so that you cannot watch Blu-Ray movies over a network. The RIAA and MPAA want as much copy protection as possible, that is why the movie studios are trying to go Blu. Apparently the uneducated consumer doesn't know these things and are going where all the flash and lights are, Blu. If people knew what they were doing, no one would be buying Blu.

on the flip side of that if you have a ps3 all you have to do is download the movie on your computer and play it over the network

sony showing their true colours. This is one of the reasons sony will never enter this household again. Funny how HD-DVD early adopters didn't have this bull to suffer, but then again Toshiba are not like sony and thats why the sony name is utter garbage imo.

This article is overblowing things. All movies will work on all players. Period. A few bonus features on a few movies won't be available on pre-BonusView players. That's the extent of it.

not quite, there is nothing in the bluray specs that gaurantee a base level of functionality.

I'm sorry I must of missed the bit that was overblowing things. Can you please highlight where they say movies wont play on all players?

Besides, its the superior format right? Is it too much to expect it to outplay all hd-dvd features?

Oh, by the way - your brand new V-8 engine will only fire on four cylinders!

Did you even read the article? Here's the paragraph that says they won't.

"In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0. This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly."

Not powerful to play the latest films properly sure sounds to me that there will be some titles that the early players won't play. Plus some of these titles take 3-5 minutes to load the stupid menu now. Just imagine when they get all the other stuff thrown in there.

Reread you sentence man, MAY have a problem... PERHAPS won't play.

May, Perhaps... Nothing concrete. They are just guessing.

Indeed.

This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.

You can say perhaps and may all you want, but this last part does not contain those little "gotchas", does it? The perhaps refers to it being possible more important, not to it being true or not.

Please, defend that, the rest, as you said, does appear to be guesses...but then again, until it arrives, so is your guess that it *will* work...

Ok I see what you are getting at...

"the perhaps refers to it being possible more important, not to it being true or not."

You may be right, BUT, the MAY still refers the the entire sentence and not just the first part of it... This is fun :)

"One key Blu-ray developer told BetaNews that although he builds discs for studios including Fox and Lionsgate, he did not buy a Blu-ray player for personal use."

Even the guys that created it aren't using it.

That's a VERY telling statement.

Spin that.

It's certainly been fun reading along.

The 'may' refers to the possibility of players having buggy implementations of BD-J. That's not saying they will, but perhaps more importantly, that's not saying they will not. :)

lvthunder, it doesn't say "Not powerful enough to play the latest films properly". EVERY BLU-RAY PLAYER WILL PLAY THE MOVIE FROM EVERY BLU-RAY DISC. PERIOD. The only thing the profiles affect is a small percentage of bonus content. For instance, instead of seeing picture-in-picture of the director during the movie, you would have the option to hear the commentary during the movie without seeing it, or hearing and seeing it full-screen rather than during the movie. You still get all the content. The main movie WILL ALWAYS WORK. The deleted scenes WILL ALWAYS WORK. The gag reel WILL ALWAYS WORK.

CJB110 claims "there is nothing in the bluray specs that gaurantee a base level of functionality." Of course there is. EVERY Blu-ray player must support all the video codecs and a full set of audio codecs which ENSURES THAT EVERY MOVIE WILL PLAY ON EVERY PLAYER. PERIOD.

F** Sony, F*** M$ these companies are just out to screw the little man! Wireless multimedia adapters are the way to go, anyone say popcorn hour??? F** this format war!

Anyone notice, all the comments are from people that don't actually own Blu-ray, by their own admissions.

Right now, I would prefer to be an early Blu-ray adopter, where some extras won't play, rather than an HD DVD early adopter, where all my movies are about to disppear off the planet.

The bottom line, is this is non news, as the vast majority of Blu-ray movie owners are PS3 owners, who get full Profile 2.0 (it was demod at the show, and doubt it will take until October like the buffoons at Betanews claim), the small minority of other Blu-ray owners, they players work in the exact same way they have always done.

"The bottom line, is this is non news"
I truely want to know how you can post this stuff with a straight face...

"October like the buffoons at Betanews claim"

Not just betanews for your information, and again - why are you here?

With an attitude like this, there's a very good reason that they haven't bought a blu-ray player.

I've got one, via the PS3, and I'm still pretty irritated at the sheer arrogance of this.

Maybe they don't own a blo ray player for just the reason the article is talking about. Why buy something that might not work completely in a couple of months. Maybe they don't want a video game system in their house. Maybe you are an idiot, but we already know you are so no maybe about it.

Tell that to the 500,000 that bought stand alones and are about be screwed with no lub curtesy of Sony.

You get your new player yet Joey?

When are you going to man-up and answer some of my comments?

So, basically, you would rather have a player which cannot access content because the company rushed it into production? And yes, I own a BRD player :)

That would mean admitting he got screwed. He would never do that because then you all would laugh at him. Lets do that anyways ;-)

I've never seen anyone as happy as you to get screwed over.

I own a PS3 (used mainly to play regular DVDs because there aren't any compelling games for which I really bought it for), so thank goodness for that. For everyone else that bought a Blu-Ray player for the specific purpose of playing movies though, do you really expect them to put on a smile while they get reamed?

One error in your logic is that any movies HD-DVD owners purchase or currently own will play on any HD-DVD player out there and for the foreseeable future. They will not disappear out of their living rooms as you claim; they will be able to enjoy their purchase for as long as they own their discs and players.

You can't say that for Blu-Ray, not even today. The buffoon is the one that sees excrement and eats it too. Open wide Joey for you are all happy to do it.

Damn.. now you have me concerned. Will someone be coming in and taking all my HD DVD movies away from me?!?!? That would really suck..

Ok, enough sarcasm. I own both formats - close to 80 HD DVD's and about 40 blu-ray's. I prefer HD DVD due to it having more features, combos and working with my logitech harmony.

Blu-ray was rushed and that's bad for the consumer. WB made a very poor choice and in no way made it for the benefit of anyone but themselves.

Anyone notice, all the comments that Joey won't respond to contain FACTS?

Right now, Joey is working on his new magic spell that will enter everyone's homes and dissolve their HD-DVD collections. I can hear him now chanting "bipity bopity".

The bottom line is a lot of people that bought bluray players just got bent over, and yet the spin doctors are still here selling it like it's gospel.

He even managed to miss the part that proclaimed that early bluray players weren't fast enough to play newer content.

How about that one Joey, are you gonna keep playing sit and spin or can you man up for once and defend your comments?

"...they players work in the exact same way they have always done."

Exactly... sub-par to every HD DVD player since launch.

BOOM headshot …. If someone tried to come and take all my hd-dvd’s away

But I don’t have any ?

Easy, Doug... easy now. :)

SGD writes "Tell that to the 500,000 that bought stand alones and are about be screwed with no lub curtesy of Sony."

How exactly are they being screwed? They'll continue to be able to watch every movie on their player. They'll continue to be able to watch all the deleted scenes, all the gag reels, hear all the director's commentary, etc.

Real talk its a shame that so many people got suckered and what blu ray player you have because I tell people to get a ps3 but some don't want a game system I only have a hd dvd add on i won and I enjoy it to the fullest and really don't know what blu ray have that is valuable because im getting a ps3 when metal gear comes out so is there any good movies for blu ray you can recommend

ROFL for you people who didnt know this. Its been there since the beginning. To the people who think its a rumor its not. They have said this over and over thats the upper edge HDDVD had. The menus since the beginning. In Addition, all HDDVD discs had the special menus, only blueray discs from this time on do. Resident Evil was one of the firsts. As for profile 2.0 really not needed since i dont want to use internet stuff on my dvd player i just want to watch a dvd.

hackztor writes "thats the upper edge HDDVD had. The menus since the beginning. In Addition, all HDDVD discs had the special menus, only blueray discs from this time on do. Resident Evil was one of the firsts."

WRONG. The only thing on Resident Evil not on previous discs and which won't work on all players is picture-in-picture as part of one of its many bonus features. Every prior Blu-ray disc has had menus, most of them pop-up. And if, as you say, you "just want to watch a DVD", the chance are you're not digging too deeply into the bonus content to begin with. EVERY BLU-RAY MOVIE WILL PLAY ON EVERY BLU-RAY PLAYER.

I appreciate the article. I had to reject shipment of a Dell XPS M1730 with blue ray due to the lemon blue-ray inside.

I have requested dell provide a statement to guarantee a 1.0 or 1.1 upgrade or upgrade path for low or no cost when 1.1 and 2.0 are available.

It is ridiculous to expect consumers to reduce inventory levels of what is effectively deprecated defective very expensive hardware.

In a laptop purchase scenario, laptops are not as easy to find parts for as desktop units. This cloud over the blue-ray hardware puts a real shadow over any immediate purchase of mobile hardware with blue-ray.

I expect that the first laptop retailer to resolve this will come out on top for yearly sales.

Man and I thought that Sony dropping B/C on the PS3 was retarded. This goes beyond... and here I thought this format war was finally over... this is just going to prolong it if there is any truth to this.

Screw it. I'm getting a VUDU. To hell with this format war.

This sucks!!! Man... Were going to be stuck with crap players and a crap format now!! I dont think HDM is going to survive this if Blu-Ray is the winner!!! in the end.
Hope HD DVD's massive press converence next week has some good news and possibly the release of the Triple Layer Twin discs & the Triple Layer 51GB.....

It's too bad the BDA is full of it; they should have told people from the beginning that they would have compatibility problems with future movies. It looks to me that the BDA will be getting a lot of law suits over this trash.
HD DVD from the beginning is the format of choice for the consumer. Guaranteed compatibility for past, present & future HD DVD movies in ultra high quality picture & audio quality. Completed Specifications from the beginning with a lot more interactive features & internet connectivity to keep anybody happy.

Blu-Ray only looks out for their pocket, they will screw the consumer every chance they get, and this article is one example of that. Do you want a Profile 2.0 BD player? Fork over $1000+ for one LOL

I’ll keep my $199 HD DVD player thank you which does more than this profile 2.0 from the beginning.

The one reason to save your money and wait and wait till a standard is reached.

When will you know when that is.

Blu-Ray Profile 6.66 ;)

One of the BDA standards is that it is not a set standard, but an ever evolving one. Isn't that a hoot? Sony makes you pay extra dollars for a PS3 being able to have backwards compatability to the PS2 content so anything's possible with them.

What if Wintel decides to inhibit Blu-ray? That ain't impossible.

Oh how I can hope Betanews staff goes to Pioneer, Samsung, and Panasonic and ask them what they think about these comments. While they are at it they should pay Disney, Fox, Warner, and MGM a visit and ask for their comments too.

We've tried, and we'll keep on trying :)

Now that would make for an interesting read...

So if they delayed Blu Ray by another year, the Playstation 3 would be delayed too? That makes no sense since by releasing the PS3 in 2006, it still majorly lags behind the 360, so a 2007 release is like no-no.

I'm glad I haven't supported either format. HD DVD was much more consumer friendly (you are buying a complete player on day 1), while Blu Ray (with Sony's genius marketting machine) cheats early adopters into thinking that Blu Ray is superior. Aside from space, Blu Ray doesn't even have 50% of HD DVD functions.

I hope people still remember that the first 100 blu ray movies were vastly inferior in image quality due to Sony using its own licensed technology (mpeg2).

DVD FTW

"So if they delayed Blu Ray by another year, the Playstation 3 would be delayed too?"

Actually, blu-ray was the main reason for all of the delays in the PS3's launch.

"They knew what they were getting into."

translation:

we dont care. you're getting focked. enjoy

yeah, screw the trolls, screw the shills, sony sucks, end of story

WOW...just WOW.

I'm used to a certain amount of bravado from electronics companies (hell, the PS3 hype machine is the best example for this), but...WOW, I'm kind of stunned.

Where do I want to start with this article?

If the goal was to keep costs down, by not including certain features, then how was HD DVD able to implement them from the start (at a cheaper price point)? Let's ignore the secondary decoders for PIP, and just address the ethernet port. IT'S A FRIGGIN ETHERNET PORT. The only thing simpler to do to the machine should have been screwing the thing shut.

Onto the meat of this story. If I were Panasonic, Philips, or Samsung, I would seriously start to question my support of this format, especially when the BDA's reps wouldn't recommend any player except the PS3. That's nothing less than a kick to the 'nards.

And then we have the idea that stickers will clear up customer confusion. I can picture them now...if the person is bent at a 45 degree angle, you're only getting screwed by profile 1.1...bent 90 degrees, and it's 2.0

To have the audacity that early adopters knew what they were getting into...damn. That takes balls.

It's not a computer, it's a machine to play movies. I still have a VCR that loads from the top(!) capable of playing movies that came out 15 years after it did. My APEX dvd player (bought in 2000) plays DVD's that I bought last week. Anyone who bought this machine has the right to the reasonable expectation that it will play each and every disc, and all of it's content. To claim otherwise is a steel toed kick to the sack.

And people wonder why I would rather upconvert, rather than toss any more cash to these idiots...

OK...rant over.

but really, who DIDNT see this coming other than people who buy brand name sony because it "means" something to them. uhm, yeah, you're getting bent over. take your gay pleasures out of my living room thanks

The people that walk into the store and say I want to watch HD movies to the salesmen. That's who didn't see it coming.

when the "sony rep" walked up to me when i was shopping for a tv, he had about 10 seconds before disappointment set in. I was educated on the features, the prices, and what I wanted. He tried his damndest to sell me on blu-ray, but in the end I'm happy with what I got. I can't say the same if I knew I purchased a crappy BD player for $100 dollars more that would be broken in a years time by sony, not by a format war. If my HD DVD player dies because the format expired, I'm more ok with that than if it is absolutely guaranteed to be dead from the day I bought it buy the guys who made it and the people who sold me on it. At least with the HD player I know I have a chance.

pridewalker, your rant hurt in so many ways that I had to run for the ketoprofin after I finished reading it.... geesh!

Yeah...coming back to it after a decent nights rest, it is a bit more 'colorful' than I intended.

I stand by my general point though. This is just one more example of the BDA's blatant disregard for their core consumer base.

Why anyone, even the most die-hard BR supporter (including those making equipment that the reps wouldn't recommend), would continue to support them, after comments like this, is beyond my comprehension.

Nah... I thought it was perfect, bud. :)

Pridewalker writes "My APEX dvd player (bought in 2000) plays DVD's that I bought last week. Anyone who bought this machine has the right to the reasonable expectation that it will play each and every disc, and all of it's content."

Except your Apex player won't play all the content on every disc. It won't play the DTS soundtrack on the many discs which have been released with it, for example. It'll still play the movie and the Dolby soundtrack, and you've been perfectly content with that, which is essentially the situation for Blu-ray owners of profile 1.0 machines. They'll still get to play EVERY MOVIE on their player. There may be a small amount of content on some discs which will be presented differently to them then to someone with a 1.1 player (i.e. as full-screen content rather than picture-in-picture content). It's really not the all-encompassing huge kick in the balls you make it out to be.

I'm sorry you were let down by making a choice for a format which likely won't be around much longer, but your remarks with regards to Blu-ray are way, way overblown.

I understand the point that you're making, but with all due respect, there is a difference.

DTS wasn't a promised feature when DVD first hit the market. It was an advancement, and the machines evolved with it. PIP, interactivity, and (to a lesser degree) ethernet support were things promised at launch, for BR...which were then quietly left out.

If the content can be accessed differently by a 1.0 machine (to use your example, as full-screen rahter than PIP content), then it's a little bit more palatable. However, considering the problems that many stand-alone players had with certain 'advanced' uses of BD-J, I'm not certain that this ability would last very long.

If you look at my reply to another poster, you'll see that yes, I did indeed acknowledge to being a bit more 'colorful' than I usually am here. I stand by the general point of that statement though: The BDA's comments show a blatant disregard for their consumer base.

Pridewalker never wrote he had HD DVD he just commented on how early Blu Ray buyers got screwed by not knowing what profile have the ability to do things that newer profiles will. Because it sucks that they left out dual decoders so your old player can't have PIP and leaving out Ethernet ports that you won't have internet connectivity is a scam and maybe people bought the systems just to watch movies and not care about the content. So ask yourself why make new profiles if the sole purpose is to watch movies. Because they sold people on joining the Blu experience and that experience is being bent over and taking whatever they give you and thats the shaft.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

GO BETA"RUMORS" GO!!!
Must fight with all the MISINFORMATION you can.
Must get all the negative SPIN out there that you can.
Must lie to help your beloved dead format.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Deny the truth all you want but it still remains the truth.

“HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!”
Getting a bit desperate now are we?

How about you start pointing out the faults so we can point out why you should not even be reading this site if you cant handle the truth…

you said the same thing yourself retard. "they knew what they were getting into." stop making an a** out of yourself

guys like this are why i wish i had a magical sterilization wand to wave at people i deem unworthy to breed

Yes I did say the "same" thing. I'll copy and past it here......

-------------------------------------------------------
Ok I'll bite...

I think a good response to this was made above by PUNTOR...
"...It all has to do with what blu-ray player you got, its not a scheme to make more money by the BDA or sony or any other blu-ray player maker(panasonic sharp etc...) Take a look at the PS3 you dont see me having to buy another ps3 for profile 2 or BD-live its not to make more money but hardware related, the ps3 sports a ethernet has a great processor and enough ram to make it run BD-live, yet its one of the chepeast blu-ray and earliest i got my ps3 at launch 2006 60 GB and i have only to do a 10 minute update for it to work and as for other blu-ray players, yes some people will have to buy another one for BD-live but some i believe can be fixed by a simple filmware update by internet since some have ethernet or wireless capability"

Having quoted that... Yes, some people will have to buy new players if they want PIP or internet connectivity. Though the PIP content can be viewed using the regular menus, the PIP feature will not be there.

But you kinda know that right? In today's day and age, consumers of electronics (especially toys) know that things get outdated quickly. New features come and go. You take that gamble. I have an ipod with no color and no video... It happens. I think that's part of the reason many people bought the PS3 or bought HDDVD for that matter... But because of the current trend in gadgets, you do run that risk.

Yes it does suck, but luckily, since the vast majority of Blu-Ray owners are PS3 owners, this doesn't hurt too many people.

- PapaSmurf
-----------------------------------------------------
You see the difference there? Both what I wrote and what Nate wrote are identically...
The only difference is all the Spin that comes out of Beta"News". It's not what was said, it's how it's said.

Look, I’ve said it many times before. I don’t come here solely for Sony/MS/PS3/XBOX news. I know what I get when I come here. I know there is spin going on and that you people will never agree with me and that I will not agree with you (well sometimes I do). I know I get bashed when I come here. I don’t get mad; it doesn’t hurt me. I actually really like Hollywood__, he is a funny kid that cracks me up sometimes. I think it’s hilarious that he reminds me so much of the character name Holden Caulfield from my favorite book of all time (Catcher in the Rye).

This site is fun… and for that I thank all of you.

There's a few differences between what you said, and this piece.

First of all, your's is based on conclusions drawn from the information that was available. This story was written after talking to people on the CES floor. No offense, but these are the people on the 'frontline' (so to speak) of the format war.

Secondly, you're saying, "Well, I researched the purchase, and when all was said and done, I decided that the PS3 would be the best option for me." As surprising as it is in this day and age, remember...some people buy things from salespeople without doing an exhaustive amount of research on line. These are the people who are most screwed by the "You knew what you were getting into" mentality.

The BDA knew from the start that they were releasing the format while it was still incomplete. How many people who did do the research didn't know about the various profile upgrades when they made their purchases?

You're right, the vast majority of BR players owned are PS3's, but does that negate the fact that early adopters who opted for something other than a games system were (in some cases) mislead?

Lies? Misinformation? I think not.

This article addresses many very valid and genuine concerns regarding a format that quite simply was not ready when it was brought to market... and is still not finished.

I do not deny whatsoever the potential greatness of the Blu-ray format. In 1 or 2 years, who knows? It may finally be too hard for me to resist by that time.

I would have much more respect for all of the members of the BDA if they pushed the format as hard as they did without the apparent necessity to screw the people they relied on the most when the format launched.

Not one single early adopter of any HD DVD player would have to worry about that possibility.

I believe the ones who "knew what they were getting into" were the ones who actually did do the research beforehand, and chose to support the format anyway in spite of its shortcomings and disadvantages compared to HD DVD. In that sense, no... I do not feel much sympathy for them.

However, the ones who relied on (sometimes extremely biased) salespersons to recommend the best option for HD... those are the ones who did not know what they were getting into, and got screwed in the process when (or if) they finally realize they bought a player that would not do all the things they could be doing with it later down the road (if they so desire, that is).

By the way, I hope no one in retail takes offense to the 'biased' remark. I used to work in retail, and I know all too well the pressure that sometimes comes from management (or higher up) to place emphasis on promoting and moving certain brands or models over another (for several different reasons). The bias is sometimes indirect and not the salesperson's own, but nevertheless exists.

Hence why I will never invest in either HD format. Planned obsolescence was always in there. Lest you think 2.0 is the last... it ain't.

"...because it is the song that doesn't end; yes it goes on and on my friend..."

Bring on the unencumbered digital distribution, please. :p

One need look no further than playsforsure and google video to see the flaws in that strategy. both are pretty much abandoned formats by the current generation of online/offline players.

That settles this issue for me. I've been sitting on the fence waiting for something to happen. Unfinished standards rarely do well especially when a competitor has almost all the as yet unfinished but promised features. The PS3 hass never recovered from the pasting it got at release by the 360 and later the Wii. Don't expect it to just because it has Blu. Great ideas litter the dusbins of history, only execution counts.

Sony knows its customers are just a bunch of masochists, they don´t mind gettin screwed.

"They knew what they were getting into" could be applied to everything from Beta, minidisc, UMD, PS3, etc.

That's really stupid.
But it's quite true.

I got lots of Sony stuff, with couple exceptions, they break wonderfully after the insured period.
But I still buy Sony stuff.

like the first Gen NetMD I bought,
it sounded cool at that time, it sucks horribly now.

and really, aside from the price point of the hd dvd players, what other reason would you need to buy an hd dvd player. at least if you're helping win the battle of retarded consumers vs educated consumers it's worth SOMETHING...

I bought in because i wanted transformers on HD and an upconverter and I got it for 200 with 5 free movies. WIN. but seriously, i have zero regrets with this purchase. IF I had bought a blu player I'd still be kicking myself for being one of the countless asshats that helped this format do what it's doing.

At first, I was like "eh, blu-ray has more space. That's good enough for me." but right now, I care less about the space and more about the features, the companies, and the end result. If it was BD without the sony with all the features plus everything they could get away with (like the 200GB discs) i'd be like EFF toshiba, but it's not. It's the minimum effort they can put in to compete with the maximum EFF YOU CONSUMER without being noticed.

HD till it dies. *chest thump*

"In order to allay confusion, the BDA has adopted special labels that will be placed on Blu-ray movies. Those with a "Bonus View" sticker will require Profile 1.1 players, while those with "BD Live" will require Profile 2.0."

Thats going to stop the confusion? LOL!!!!

If companies knew that Blu-Ray rushed to get to market, and that some customers are just about to be alienated, why in the hell would they go with the format?

HD DVD has supported these things since day 1, and no early adopters are getting screwed in any updates to the format... On top of that, they don't have to have any special stickers and labels to differentiate 1.1 and 2.0 format specifications.

I don't get you Hollywood!

LOL.

Sony will be reaming you guys for a long time. But, you seem to enjoy it. So, Enjoy!

WOW, this is AWESOME.

Where are the anti-everythingbutblu folks now?

I bet they are camping out at Walmart RIGHT NOW waiting for delivery while sharing basement life stories, and drooling over the hope of getting a new 1.1 player.

blublood dweeb powers activate!

"blublood dweeb powers activate!" Form of...a sheep!

Seriously though...we'll see the 'negative spin' and 'rumor' claims soon enough.

Oh wait...there's one already.

I guess that is one way to increase sales force expensive upgrades, nice going.

Keeps the cost down is crap. A netword card costs what like 3 bucks and one gig of flash like 5. And that is consumer lower quantity prices. It all boils down to planned screwing the customer.

What exactly does "keep costs down" mean?...since both HD and Blu ray came to the market in the $900+ region.

So you mean while the players cost HD DVD (FOR EXAMPLE, since I don't know the numbers) say $500 at the time, they only cost BR in comparison, say $300 to make? So BR knowingly decided to fu^& over their early adopters to save themselves money?

And I'm sorry but how dare you say "They knew what they were getting into"?....that's just slimey. I'm extremely happy I don't have money like that to throw down on emerging tech' because I'd probably be pretty sore at this sentiment.

At least HD is consistent.

I mean no matter how you take this, it's pretty messed up.

I would be positive that the movies will still play in the older players, they just won't be able to access those 'features'.

I bet most would not care either way. I know I do not. If you do care then this must be your first foray into bleeding edge. Most people who live on the tech edge realize that they take great risk 'betting' on new technology. Look what apple did with the price on the iphone.

In all seriousness this is just an attempt to make blu-ray look bad in what could be the end of the war.

Talk about screwing people over.

...and they're going to keep screwing people over. Wait for profile 3.0, and 3.1, ad infinitum. It's the format that is never finished.

lol, yes it is.

I think it says alot, when they don't even try to hide it anymore.

So basically they're saying hey everyone look at how badly the ps3 is selling so we need to give it a boost by saying that that is the only blu ray player you should be buying at the moment.

It seems fair. Now both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray early adopters must buy a new player!

With all the current and future compatibility problems it may look ridiculous for the studios to be dropping HD DVD in favor of blu-ray, but the reason is quite simple, copy protection.

Blu-ray has a far stronger copy protection scheme and it gets stronger with every update of the blu-ray spec. It's impossible to rip the latest blu-ray titles right now and we aren't even close to profile 2.0. The goal is to get everyone on profile 2.0 and have their player connected to the internet. Then if / when the security is compromised, a new patch can be pushed out to lock it up again. This will work much in the same way as satellite does now, with hacks and shutdowns and bypasses ad-infinitum.

Security is the only reason that the studios are dropping HD DVD. And security is the only reason that the manufactures keep updating the spec and making players obsolete every month. Not a single update since inception has made the picture look better or made the players easier to use or more compatible.

The studios and manufacturers are forcing the law abiding consumer and supporters of the format to pay again and again for copy protection that will never end piracy and may well kill the format.

It's offensive to make me throw out my first generation player that cost $1200 because the studios want to keep updating the security. They should be forced by law to trade in all players for new models at no cost. I paid about $1000 for my first VCR and $1000 for my first CD player. Both of them played their respective formats just fine right up until the day they died, even 10 years after introduction when new players were $50.

Yeah, HD DVD was released as a finished-spec format and Blu Ray is the "superior format??" Please. This is what happens when you trust Sony. I'm sure there will be much screwing over of the consumers in the future once Sony has even more control over the hardware AND the media. I believe that had the playing field been equal (movie studios releasing on both formats), HD DVD would have "won." HD DVD is CLEARLY the superior format, simply because it was released in it's complete spec with all the features that BR will be adding in the future...and don't forget it is quite a bit less expensive than Blu ray.

They better have a player that doesn't need to be connected to the internet, or they can kiss my derriere. There is no way in hell I will connect my home theatre equipment to the internet, ever. It's not even a matter of remote disabling (which is almost certainly illegal - what's next? You turn on your TV with the front panel switch so they disable your remote?)... it's a matter of my not wanting my movie watching habits being zapped over the net to some marketing research scumbags. It's very much a privacy thing.

If they make an internet connection required, I simply won't buy disks or the player. I have about 800 titles on regular DVD and two perfectly good players. That's enough to last a long time.

Thank you Rorge for putting light onto why Studios support Blu Ray I just want people to understand that the reason not of consumers wants. I know studios hate that HD DVD are region free it hurt the foreign market that get paid to translate movies to other regions.