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Blu-ray: Early adopters knew what they were getting into

By Nate Mook, BetaNews

January 8, 2008, 8:16 PM

Blu-ray may have taken a commanding lead in the next-generation format war, but the group has a big problem looming: early supporters of the format will be left out in the cold when the Blu-ray Disc Association introduces BD Profile 2.0

Unlike HD DVD, which mandated features such as local storage, a second video and audio decoder for picture-in-picture, and a network connection from the very beginning, the companies behind Blu-ray took a different approach. Initial hardware players lacked these capabilities in order to keep costs down.

None of the Profile 1.0 players can be upgraded to Profile 1.1, which was finalized recently, with the exception of the PlayStation 3 -- whose update arrived in mid-December. Likewise, Profile 2.0 is expected to arrive in October bringing Internet connectivity that Profile 1.1 players lack.

Representatives at the Blu-ray booth at CES told BetaNews that the PlayStation 3 is currently the only player they would recommend, due to upcoming changes to the platform. But Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic and Sony have all been selling standalone Blu-ray players to customers.

In order to allay confusion, the BDA has adopted special labels that will be placed on Blu-ray movies. Those with a "Bonus View" sticker will require Profile 1.1 players, while those with "BD Live" will require Profile 2.0.

In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0. This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.

When BetaNews asked developers of BD Live whether they were concerned about a backlash from early adopters who supported the format from the beginning, we were told: "They knew what they were getting into."

BDA President Andy Parsons echoed that sentiment at the Blu-ray press conference Monday, telling BetaNews that it's normal for new technology to change and older hardware to become obsolete. He added that early Blu-ray owners can continue to do everything they could in the beginning: watch movies in high-definition.

Still, the confusion will only likely further alienate existing and potential customers of the nascent format. One key Blu-ray developer told BetaNews that although he builds discs for studios including Fox and Lionsgate, he did not buy a Blu-ray player for personal use.

When BetaNews asked why these manufacturers rushed out players that were not fully capable and potentially buggy due to their BD-J implementation, the Blu-ray partner pointed blame across the room to HD DVD. "We should have waited another year to introduce Blu-ray to the public, but the format war changed the situation," he said. HD DVD was already coming and the BDA had no choice but to launch Blu-ray.

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By palm060

edited May 8, 2008 - 12:14 PM

Andy Parsons is a complete and utter ASS.
I can not afford to spend $1000 + on a Blue Ray machine to be told after a year that it is no good any more.
I want a REFUND or at least a discount on the new tech.
Andy Parsons is totally unethical irresponsible and disturbing.
What ever happened to common decency?

Score: 0

By The Fuzz 53

posted Jan 22, 2008 - 3:09 PM

SONY HATES YOU!!!

http://www.thebestpagein....net/c.cgi?u=sony_bulls***

Score: 0

By johnboy11-1

edited Jan 18, 2008 - 10:18 PM

Well well well. Its amazing to me the lack of knowledge on this whole situation. I work in retail, (electronics); The clientel that we deal with are ordinary everyday people, such as most of you are, and have absolutely no clue as to whats been said here or more importantly how its affected their entertainment investment. There are some people out there that are saying EXACTLY what a lot of you have already put so eloquently, "I'm gonna wait untill the prices/dust settles down." I guess it will pay off in the end.

Fact: Consumers will be upset...very upset, pissed if you will
Fact: BD has "more" backing with major film companies that HD DVD. (BD = $$$$$$$)

So put yourself in these companies shoes for one second-
Do you:
A) Turn back on BD, loose your sales, pull your product off the shelves and reproduce films for HD DVD
B) SUE SUE SUE BD, Pray to the allmighty JEBUS himself that your company doesnt loose its a** in the process ~ no guarenteed solution is found
C) Make BD players with the proper format that are VERY affordable and perhaps offer the consumer some sort of reembursment for this hassle
D) Make BD/HD DVD COMBO or stand alone BD players with an upgradable format that is VERY affordable (price of a current BD player $450-$500) and something the average consumer could update in a 1/2hr at home (someone said PS3 before?!?!)

What do you do? Only time will tell.

I do find something very... "Deja Vou" about this situation.

Does anyone remember VCR and Beta?

Score: 0

By vermelho

edited Jan 16, 2008 - 2:41 PM

For everyone who has held out this long thinking about the format war, it's time to look at value and return and vote with your wallet rather than the paid off news media. If you have an HD set, there is no reason to deprive yourself of quality movie watching. The toshibas below and just above the $150 mark offer outstanding DVD upsampling. You get a batch of HD movies thrown in for a total MUCH less than the movies retail cost alone. What is there to think about!? OK, I'm not going crazy buying new titles yet either, but the studios deserve that treatment after making such a mess of this situation. If all the studios offered both formats now, blu-ray would disappear faster than a rat down its own hole. HD-DVD: better, cheaper, smarter. Just do it.

Score: 0

By rmatt12

posted Jan 25, 2008 - 5:59 PM

that what i been saying that why BDA snatched Fox and Disney on copy protection but to their disarray number of blu ray movies been hacked and pirated that why Fox was considering going to HD DVD until BDA threw some money in their face

Score: 0

By nycman25

edited Jan 16, 2008 - 10:39 AM

Wow. It still makes no sense to me why people are buying blu-ray players. I understand if you have a PS3 and you buy the movies but to buy Blu-Ray players at this point seems pretty crazy

Score: 0

By jay-jay

edited Jan 15, 2008 - 9:57 AM

I'm really confused as to why Warners and others accept this type of situation with this format. From day one HD-DVD was complete. Updates were issued periodically, but for all intents and purposes Toshiba delivered a full package at a lesser price.

Where there's smoke there's fire, and Sony has been paying off huge sums of money and making considerable discounting to the major studios to keep BD alive and perking. They sold Disney and Fox a bill of goods about the features that Blu Ray could promote. Most of which are now causing considerable problems for stand alone oners.

There have been and still will be tremendous sales on HD-DVD players. These people deserve the right to purchase the new movies Hollywood is offering. The studios should at least remain neutral until the end of this current year to determine how the war is going.

Gerald Jay Schatt.

Score: 0

By whn

edited Jan 27, 2008 - 11:57 AM

THE REASON THE STUDIOS ARE GETTING TOGETHER IS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CONTROL THE MEDIA LIKE RIAA WANTS TO CONTROL MUSIC.

read about the 1948 PARAMOUNT DECREE

STICK WITH HD-DVD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU

HAVE

BEEN

WARNED

STICK WITH HD-DVD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Score: 0

By jc2170

edited Feb 19, 2008 - 12:49 PM

You do that and add that HD-DVD player to that stack of laser disc, Betamax, and 8-track player.

Score: 0

By GeneralAccount2K

edited Jan 15, 2008 - 7:55 PM

"Initial hardware players lacked these capabilities in order to keep costs down." - I find this statement ironic, given that Blu-Ray hardware has been priced almost twice as high as the HD-DVD equivalent (even with lacking features). I'm with folks (including the developers themselves) that are simply sitting this war out until the dust settles.

Additionally, I'm not sure how this news is a surprise to anyone. Money and bottom line aside, Toshiba split from the group for a reason and I have a feeling this is only the first revealing step in a long and bumpy road that will expose what Blu-Ray-backing companies really think of the consumer.

And finally; I realize that folks have continued to remark that there are companies other than Sony involved with Blu-Ray and in fact, that the technology was developed by Panasonic; however, "they knew what they were getting into" sounds remarkably like Sony... as does the pushing of PS3 by Blu-Ray representatives.

As much as I hate to admit it, that's just marketing genius!

Score: 0

By Dreldan

edited Jan 15, 2008 - 11:36 AM

How iggnorant do you have to be to buy a bluray dvd player instead of just buying a PS3? Same price with way more options, you can buy a 25 dollar remote that is just like any other dvd player remote. You can get online and download updates and trailers for other movies, you can store pictures movies and music on it and play it on your t.v., and thats all stuff not including the GAMEING part of it.

Score: 0

By Forrestp

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 5:08 PM

I was all happy when HD DVD finally took a nosedive. But you have to admit, all of the HD DVD models can utilize all of the special features released on discs. I have a brand new Samsung BDP-1400 just three weeks old and now it's already outdated? I think there will be a backlash from consumers and I don't think "They knew what they were getting into" will suffice to people that spent $1000 or more on a DVD player.

Score: 0

By TZZDC

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 11:10 AM

Get ready for another round of lawsuits if this is the case. I'd be PISSED if I'd bought a standalone for $400 then had someone from the BDA say well tough.. you knew what you were getting into. If I owned a stand alone I'd send it back and tell em they can either keep the player I'm sending them and send me a new updated one or expect a class action law suit.

Score: 0

By thenet411

edited Jan 14, 2008 - 3:50 PM

TZZDC - You're missing the point. You bought a player that didn't have the hardware capabilities the later ones were going to have. You saying that you would sue is like saying that because your current computer can't do what the computers of the future can do you are going to sue the manufacturers. If you don't have the money to be part of the early adopter club, then you simply don't get to be a part of it.

Score: 0

By TZZDC

posted Jan 17, 2008 - 8:46 PM

Thats actually why I got a PS3 to avoid that whole problem. Of course the added bonus was the console for gaming but thats besides the point. Speaking of computers sure your computer may not be able to run the software as fast as the newer ones do but hell you're still able to run the software.

I doubt I'm missing the point really never have I encountered a set top player that is out of date because new software features. That'd be like me buying a VHS deck back in the day and six months or a year later its like ohh you cant play any of the newer movies because you're decks too old.. But it can still play VHS tapes.. ohh thats too bad they changed how the video is held on the tapes.. sorry have to buy a new one.

I mean seriously the way the blu-ray people sound is exactly like a bunch of greedy corporate CEO's at Sony that don't give a damn about the consumer but care about the almighty dollar. Yeah you bought a player for $399 or more, tough s*it.

The last comment just begs lawsuit I'm sure companies have been sued over poor implimentations of software/hardware before and it like well you rushed your product out the door facing competition.. shows you how much the corporations really care about the consumer.

Score: 0

By thenet411

posted Jan 18, 2008 - 1:22 PM

You can't compare VHS players to today's Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players. VHS and Beta players were mechanical devices that couldn't do much outside of playback and record TV signals. Today's DVD players are basically specialized computers. Computers are upgraded, continuously modified, and their capabilities expanded. Thats how it is in the 21st century. So, YES, you are missing the point.

Score: 0

By giromide

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 11:32 AM

Such is the price of early adoption. Though I'm itching to make full use of my 1080p LCD, I'm willing to wait until the format war is over and the winning format is mature enough to meet my needs.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 7:16 PM

That's the thing though... HD DVD has been mature from the start. Sadly, not enough people realize this.

Score: 0

By jugganutz

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 10:36 PM

Does Anyone still know if this holds true with the new 2.0 spec coming out and all?

http://www.engadget.com/...ers-who-hack-their-gear

Of course the looming next-gen optical format war about to go down between Blu-ray and HD-DVD might be kind of interesting if it weren't taking place, well, in your very livingroom. But with talks broken down and devices starting to crop up, it looks like the first blows will soon be felt—but aren't they supposed to be hitting one another and not the end user? Because this little bit in a Reuters piece this morning left us a little unsettled:

On top of that, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely.

Are they talking about PVP-OPM techniques and rejected HDMI keys, or something else far more sinister? Because apparently "A hacked player is any player that is doing something it's not supposed to do," which open to a pretty fair amount of interpretation—most of which egregious.

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 12:43 AM

I'm not sure. When you consider that 3 of the studios in the BDA (Fox, Disney, and Sony) love DRM, and Sony's patent to lock discs to machines, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Blu-ray isn't looking to offer the consumer a choice, so much as it is trying to control the consumer.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 6:54 AM

What are you talking about ? HD-DVD was not designed to be customer friendly at all. AACS is still DRM and Region Coding was approved for HD-DVD specifications as an update to be issued thru new firmwares.

Score: 0

By MikeTechno

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 12:14 PM

Come on now, do you really think that Toshiba is just going to lay down and die now with respect to HD DVD? They have multiple MILLIONS of dollars invested in this format. There is no WAY they are just going to throw in the towel now and call it quits on this format.

I think you are going to see some VERY innovative and VERY aggressive moves from Toshiba in the near future now that the pressure is really on them and the eyes of the world are all watching.

More excitement to come here soon I am sure.

Score: 0

By Emma03

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 2:47 PM

Someone who bought the Blu-ray was really unhappy with their purchase:

This product is disappointing from Sony. It is a very low end product; the load times for movies are 2-4 minutes.
Options for screen control are limited. Even though I have a wide screen T.V. (50 inch plasma), it does not fill the screen with the picture. You get the picture with a couple of inches of blank spae below and above the picture.
I have worked with tech support and all options and no resolution to the problem.

BluRay should be great, this is just another piece of junk.

More reactions from buyers here:
http://www.buzzillions.c...an-bluray-movie-reviews/

Score: 0

By Yakumo

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 11:28 PM

Just because your TV is huge doesn't mean it matches the aspect ration of what you are watching.

if the picture is reaching the sides to the left and right, and the people don't look fat, or squished, but have the right ratio, then the only way to get rid of those lines is either to

1.keep the aspect the same and increase the size of the image to fit top and bottom, but the sides will go off screen so your image overall is cropped.

2. lose the aspect ration and stretch top to bottom and make everything thinner than it should be.

most (all?) good TV's will let you change between scaling modes so if you don't mind 4:3 aspect stretched to fit 16:9 and fat people, or 2.39:1 stretched to fit 16.9 and over thin looking people, or your picture cropped in some way, that's up to you, otherwise, you have to put up with borders.

Score: 0

By absolutekuro

edited Jan 26, 2008 - 8:18 PM

The reason for the bars is the film your watching was filmed in anamorphic widescreen format which is an aspect ratio bigger than 16:9. It's a directors choice nothing besides the fore mentioned tips you can do.

Score: 0

By niyooh

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 10:51 AM

I agree, Toshiba is a huge company that makes a lot more technologies and does a lot for the consumer. There is alot more to come from them!

Score: 0

By liturgy_fio

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 9:16 AM

Just bought an Hd-DVD Player for 199 from BB. About three days before Warners' announcement. I have an older 1080i rear projection that looked fantastic with my pitifully small library of HD disks, heh. Oh well, it's not too bad. Colors and overall sharpness are improved on my regular dvds. If you can get a Toshiba at going out of business prices they might be worth it for the up convert alone. BR might be something to look at later when pricing comes down under a 100 on a deck or 60 for a pc drive. Besides, now HD is done might as well wait for the cheap writeable decks and those will be three years down the road. Sorry Hollyrock, those dvd sales aren't looking so hot for a long while.

Score: 0

By Sean*O

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 4:18 AM

So are they saying that they would have launched the PS3 without a Blu Ray drive were it not for the early HD DVD rollout?

Or would they have delayed the PS3 launch another year, thereby giving Microsoft a two year headstart with the Xbox 360?

I would really like an answer to this :)

Score: 0

By The-One

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 11:53 AM

I agree completely with you. They are blaming their own problems/failings on HD DVD. This is typical Sony crap, like saying people would flock to the PS3 even if it didn't have games at launch, or including rootkits because most people don't know what they are. Sony SUCKS!!!

I hate that HD DVD is dead, but any Sony lovers out there are going to get nicely screwed, but thats ok, its Toshiba's fault....

Score: 0

By MikeTechno

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 12:45 PM

"They knew what they were getting into"

This statement translates directly into "We couldn't care less about screwing over our loyal customers. We don't care about them, we never have. All we really care about is taking their money, as fast as possible and as often as possible. Anything else is totally irrelevent"

Funny how they are now wanting to put stickers on their new movies to tell customers important information about them but yet they didn't lift a finger put one single "sticker" on any of their early blu-ray players warning customers about how they wouldn't be able to upgrade to the new BD profiles. Funny how that works out, isn't it?

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 4:32 PM

It's because in their eyes they've "officially" won the format war. Now, their arrogance starts to show in full force.

Score: 0

By MikeTechno

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 12:07 AM

And you know, I don't even mind if they want to put players out on the market that can't later be updated to supporting the latest BD profile. That's fine. I am perfectly fine with that. But if you are going to do that, as a manufacturer, you have a profound responsibility to your customers to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is entirely aware of that fact BEFORE they spend their hard earned money on one of your devices. To just bury it in the specs in the back of the manual or put it somewhere obsucure on your web site does NOT cut it and it does NOT get you off the hook. Don't even start to think that it does.

All Sony and the other Blu-Ray makers would have had to do is put a nice big orange sticker on the outside of each box clearly telling customers what it was they were getting themselves into with these units before they bought them. They elected not to do that.

This was clearly a MATERIAL and SIGNIFICANT point that every customer had the right to know BEFORE they spent their hard earned dollars on one of these players. These manufacturers chose not to do that (or something very similar to that) of their own free will, and for that reason alone, I say that they have sacraficed all credibility with the people that pay ALL of their bills: their customers.

Score: 0

By palm060

posted May 8, 2008 - 12:24 PM

I Totally agree with you.
There are Know ETHICAL Standards any more.
This kind of thing will bite us all in the a** one day.

Score: 0

By Drayzin

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 2:35 PM

The consumer backlash against Blu-ray is going to be huge, and might switch them off of HD players and towards hard drive based HD content.

Give Microsoft another year with the 360 XBLM and we'll see how the HD format war is coming along.

Score: 0

By yhtomitb

edited Jan 10, 2008 - 6:25 PM

Nobody complained when "Stereo", VHS Hi-Fi, Super-VHS were added to VHS platform. Nobody complained when Laser Disc players added Digital Audio and CD capabilities to the platform. Nobody complained when DTS was later added to the DVD platform. Nobody complained when 480P Component...DVI...HDMI...were added later to the DVD platform. Everyone was pleased that these features were being added, and at a price that was lower than their original purchase. Nobody will have to worry about being able to "watch" a movie on their 1.0 or 1.1 player. If they want to add the functionality to do PIP, etc., with Profile 2.0, they can upgrade their Blu-Ray player when the prices fall...and they will! Newer capabilities will be added to the Blu-Ray format, just like they have been added to all the other video formats for years. People will be happy with the new features and the lower prices. Software will drop in price too and functionality will be added as well. Best of all, every Blu-Ray player sold will play DVDs and upconvert them for backward compatibility. Blu-Ray is here to stay. HD-DVD gave it a good shot, but the majority of consumers have spoken. Let's move on.

Score: 0

By palm060

posted May 8, 2008 - 12:25 PM

YES THEY DID.
Axx HOxle

Score: 0

By rmatt12

edited Jan 16, 2008 - 11:42 AM

NO big business decided you forget to mention that people didnt need to buy new hardware to enjoy those enhancements that the big debacle with blu ray players is that you spent all this money on a useless product. Because new blu ray disc will not properly function in old blu ray players and dont bring up laser disc no more that not a good look

Score: 0

By Katz

edited Jan 17, 2008 - 6:01 PM

get your finger out of your a...

Why do you believe old blu-ray players won't function properly?
They won't have the extras, but they will do what they were made for - PLAYING god d***ED MOVIES!
You claim they won't be able to do so?
You say big businesses decided it's going to be blu-ray and not consumers? well when the big businesses see that they sell 3 to 9 times more blu-ray discs than hd-dvd discs, they won't be prone to keep selling one of them at a loss, will they?

that's right! blu-ray movies have been outselling hd-dvds by the multiples and that's what made all those studios turn blu-ray exclusive. unlike the famous $120M pay-offs we've all heard of on the other side.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Jan 17, 2008 - 6:37 PM

*yawn*

Possibility of Profile 2.0 discs not functioning properly in Profile 1.0 or 1.1 Blu-ray players. This has been covered extensively here (even in this very article) and on other sites.

Multiples of what... one? Here in the U.S. they have only managed nearly a 2:1 lead over HD DVD. Again, covered several times here and elsewhere.

$120 million... I guess it's not that famous if you cannot seem to get your imaginary figure correct with the popular version of the lie that the rest of the Smurfs pass around. This has been debunked and never proven... here, elsewhere, everywhere. Try again. If you can manage to prove it, you'd be the first. Imagine how famous you'd be... I say go for it!

Score: 0

By Katz

posted Jan 18, 2008 - 8:12 AM

only 2:1 in america ?
well i'm talking about worldwide, because I don't give a damn about america. i won't go there unless i get a job offering from Ubisoft or another big gaming company. that is, after I graduate in my current university.
a "possibility" that profile 2.0 discs won't function properly on 1.0 players means it won't have any of the extras. again get your biased american mind together. blu-ray was meant to win, because it offers the consumer what he wants. I can't really imagine downloading a full hd movie from with my (average) internet connection, so online support isn't really what determines the winner.

again Blu-ray outsells HD-DVD worldwide and that's what made Warner turn Blu-ray exclusive.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 19, 2008 - 2:55 AM

Speculation, plain and simple... but I do respect your opinion.

I would definitely like to believe that's the real reason why Warner made their decision, but there are plenty of experts in the industry that suggest otherwise.

And yes, it is also hopeful speculation that all BD-Live discs will work at all in Profile 1.0 players... that is, if it does not have a PlayStation 3 logo on it. That does not pertain to just extras.

But we can disagree, and life still goes on. :)

Score: 0

By pridewalker

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 12:55 AM

"Nobody complained when "Stereo", VHS Hi-Fi, Super-VHS were added to VHS platform. Nobody complained when Laser Disc players added Digital Audio and CD capabilities to the platform. Nobody complained when DTS was later added to the DVD platform. Nobody complained when 480P Component...DVI...HDMI...were added later to the DVD platform. Everyone was pleased that these features were being added, and at a price that was lower than their original purchase."

Interesting and well thought out point. I'd like to point out the differences that make it invalid though.

The things you listed were an 'evolution' of the existing technology. Most (if not all) were not announced just months after the launch of those technologies, they were included as they were developed...in some cases years later.

PIP and Ethernet/web connectivity, on the other hand, are not new technologies. As illustrated by their inclusion in HD DVD, at launch, they were viable from the start. It's obvious from comments by the BDA that these were things intended to be included from the start, but they were dropped...with the intention of including them later...from the start. By originally hiding this fact, they misled their consumers.

"...but the majority of consumers have spoken." With all due respect, no they haven't; and that's one of the problems with this format war. Had both formats co-existed with equal support from all studios, and BR were still the leader, I'd agree with you. However, by choosing sides the studios...and not the consumers...have decided which tech should be in any HD living room.

Score: 0

By Yakumo

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 11:44 PM

It's even cheekier than that, they shipped movies that faked PIP by having 2 video tracks that got swapped between, one with the in picture video hardcoded, and made out like their system was as capable as hd-dvd.knowing that when real PIP support was added, the dual track disks would stop, and all 1.0 player purchasers would have to upgrade.

they've used every trick they can to push bluray out there, and HD-DVD dedicated players still out sold them, even a small majority of PS3 owners don't even realize it's a bluray devicem they still have market penetration though, though not as much as the 360's hddvd drive. The movie studios want to end things fast, and the most DRM encumbered system still appeals more to the studio antiquated business model.

Score: 0

By dchan

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 4:33 PM

That's because most of what you are talking about is either backwards compatible or did affect anyone. I could still play a DVD movie with DD5.1 even if it had DTS on the disc as well. Admit it, the BR group shafted early adopters buy putting out a platform too early. Ironically this is exactly what Sony complained about with the console war with Microsoft saying that they started the next generation too quickly.

Score: 0

By RvLeshrac

edited Jan 11, 2008 - 11:14 PM

Yes, but this has to do with the possibility that your Blu-ray player *WILL NOT PLAY NEW MOVIES AT ALL* due to a non-functional implementation of BD-J and insufficiently built hardware.

Consumers have NOT spoken. STUDIOS have spoken. STUDIOS have moved into the Blu-Ray camp, primarily because Sony has paid them millions to support Blu-Ray.

Your original-release DVD player will play modern DVDs fine. Your original-release Blu-Ray player will very likely *NOT* play future releases without stuttering, skipping, frame-dropping...

Since Blu-Ray encryption can be updated at any time, your original player may not play any new movies *AT ALL*.

Score: 0

By boberto

edited Jan 11, 2008 - 10:24 PM

"HD-DVD gave it a good shot, but the majority of consumers have spoken. Let's move on."

No, the studios spoke. Consumers had very little say, and still do.

Score: 0

By The-One

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 11:56 AM

I agree, I hate Sony as a company. I do like Blu Ray as a technoglogy, though. I really didn't care about this stupid format war. However, according to Sony, consumers didn't speak, so we get what we deserve.

Score: 0

By siryak

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 9:17 PM

In all of those times they weren't playing catch up. These features did not exist whenever the player was created. This is not the case here. Also I am not sure, but I don't think that they knew the features were coming, nor did they come this soon.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 11:17 PM

I like your points too good work.
Except that hardly FRACTION of consumers have spoken about either format yet.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 7:53 PM

I will say that you mention very valid points about enhancements to previous formats. Bravo.

However, I do not believe the majority of consumers have spoken. The majority of studios have apparently spoken for us.

Score: 0

By aredo

edited Jan 10, 2008 - 8:05 PM

It's a fact that Blu-Ray discs have been selling almost 3 times more than HD-DVD ones.
And Blu-Ray burners are falling in price (LG latest Blu-Ray burner with HD-DVD reading capability is selling for less than $350-400 now) pretty quickly as well as BD-R 25GB single layer media ($12 and falling). And that is thanks to many early adopters and more new customers that prefer Blu-Ray over HD-DVD.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Jan 10, 2008 - 8:31 PM

One small correction, and that depends on where you live, aredo.

Here in the U.S., Blu-ray title sales have consistently led HD DVD by nearly a 2:1 ratio, and that is fact. That is not "almost 3 times more".

Score: 0

By dchan

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 5:24 PM

Also, compared to regular DVD sales both HD formats combined are a drop in the bucket.

Score: 0

By aredo

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 6:55 AM

Which means nothing, people were telling the same when the DVD was introduced on the market.. there were people like you telling that VHS tapes would have lasted till 2010 or more... Nowadays we live the proof of how silly those statements really were.

Score: 0

By MikeTechno

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 4:13 PM

A previous poster makes a really good point here. What Sony and the Blu-ray camp have chosen to do recently makes a very strong case for not buying ANY manufacturer's Blu-ray player and sticking with a simple, reliable, stable standard upconverting DVD player that can be purchased now for one SIXTH the price of a new Blu-ray player.

Nice work guys. Way to shoot your collective selves in the foot here. Well done. Very impressive.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 8:02 PM

You don't know what you are talking about, really. Do you own a HDTV 720p or 1080p plasma,LCD panel or a projector ? If yes then watching upscaled SDTV content on it is a realy waste compared to watching full 1080p content. The difference is huge and if you haven't watched a few hours of movies and such on a properly setup display/equipment you obviously can't see the difference.

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By Setian^Stalker

edited Jan 11, 2008 - 1:15 AM

I can say with honesty I noticed the difference in shops. But upscaled dvd still looked somewhat impressive to me too, the difference isn’t enough to make me go out and spend s***loads on getting a ‘decent’ player on either side

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By yountmj

edited Jan 10, 2008 - 8:40 PM

Funny that you suggest that one of the most knowledgeable and level-headed members of this forum doesn't know what he's talking about, considering that he deals with this technology on a daily basis, and more importantly, deals with the consumers of said technology.

Perhaps most importantly, he knows what he's talking about within the context of the "big picture"... and that is, most people are (or, like myself, will be) happy up-converting their vast library of existing DVDs until they are convinced that their hard-earned dollars aren't wasted on a Blu-ray player that may not be able to play all of the features on any Blu-ray disc released in the future.

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By aredo

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 5:01 AM

Which means nothing. Telling people that any upscaled SDTV video would look the same or better than a true HDTV 1080p one is a silly statement.

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By pridewalker

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 1:00 AM

Miketechno said nothing of the sort. He pointed out that until the BDA has profile 2.0 players on the market (and all of the bugs worked out of the system), that it might be a wiser choice to stick with an upconverting DVD player. The technology has been proven sound over the last 8+ years.

It may not have the same picture quality as a BR disc, but until the BDA sorts itself out, and finally has a completed product on the market, why would any sane consumer pay to test their 'staged' feature release?

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By siryak

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 9:22 PM

He is not saying that. What he was saying is the majority of people are happy with their 480p DVDs until they know that their player is not going to become obsolete in a few months.

Also hate to burst your bubble, but 1080p is severely over hyped. Unless you are sitting really close on a really big TV you can not even tell the difference from 720p, and even then you may still not be able to.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 12, 2008 - 8:46 PM

You might not notice any difference between 720p and 1080p BUT people do see the huge quality difference.
It's like telling that on a PC monitor, nowadays all LCDs practically, there would be no difference between 640x480 and 1024x768 resolution... and that no one would notice.

Score: 0

By siryak

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 7:21 PM

"That's changed in the last couple of years. Most 1080p sets are now capable of fully resolving 1080i and 1080p material. But that hasn't altered our views about 1080p TVs. We still believe that when you're dealing with TVs 50 inches and smaller, the added resolution has only a very minor impact on picture quality. On a regular basis in our HDTV reviews, we put 720p (or 768p) sets next to 1080p sets, then feed them both the same source material, whether it's 1080i or 1080p, from the highest-quality Blu-ray and HD DVD players. We typically watch both sets for a while, with eyes darting back and forth between the two, looking for differences in the most-detailed sections, such as hair, textures of fabric, and grassy plains. Bottom line: It's almost always very difficult to see any difference--especially from farther than 8 feet away on a 50-inch TV."

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6810011-1.html

Maybe not the most reliable source on the net, but they have valid points. Hate to break it to you aredo, but 1080p is nothing but a way to get more money out of the consumers pocket unless it is bigger than 50in(which most peoples TVs are not).

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Jan 13, 2008 - 2:34 AM

Using LCD monitors is an incredibly bad example to use when comparing the quality differences between different resolutions, especially on a PC.

They are designed for one specific optimal native resolution, and when not using that resolution, the detail and quality of the on-screen images goes down the crapper.

Likewise with your comment, simply because you claim that you can see a "huge quality difference" does not mean that most people can.

I'm sure that since so many people are deciding to simply upconvert their existing DVD library as opposed to purchasing a Blu-ray or HD DVD player suggests they do not see a "huge" difference between upconverted standard-definition material and true HD... let alone a "huge" difference between 720p and 1080p.

I am not claiming the difference does not exist, for it truly does. However, anyone who claims that it is a huge difference is in the minority. Otherwise, I believe we would see a much faster transition to true HD players versus upconverting SD players than there is right now.

The vast majority of consumers are not video- or audiophiles, and cares not for trivial things such as compression artifacts. The tremendous market for digital music downloads should be proof of that.

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By yountmj

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 8:23 AM

I agree... which is probably why nobody made such a silly statement.

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By Setian^Stalker

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 7:23 AM

The only time I have noticed that 1080p REALLY stands out and looks bloody impressive is on very large TV's
Other than those its easy to see why people dont see a worth while improvement.

Score: 0

By aredo

edited Jan 12, 2008 - 8:49 PM

This is pretty misleading. If that was the case then now we would all still be using 640x480 and 800x600 resolutions only on PC monitors. There would have been no need for manufacturers to push CRTs capable of more than a resolution of 1600x1200 pixels in the past. And at the time the biggest screens were in the 24inches range... far from big. Did people not notice a huge difference between a 640x480 capable CRT dispaly and a 1280x1024 one, perhaps ? Even on small CRT 17" and 19" the difference was pretty huge. All professionals were buying very expensive CRTs like the EIZO and Sony Trinitron monitors that were capable of those high resolutions at high refresh rates.

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By wreckedchevy

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 1:51 AM

i bought a cheap upconvert phillips from walmart and tried same movie upconverted and without and couldn't see any difference at all. tried the same thing with my a20 and i will say it is a vast improvement over sd dvd or atleast enough of one to keep me content until the bda pulls there collective head's out of there arses and finalizes all there profiles...

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 7:55 PM

Yep... that's why the Oppo DV-980H will get a lot of use in the next one or two years (possibly even longer) in my home.

Score: 0

By slinkys_delsol

edited Jan 10, 2008 - 3:34 PM

If they are backing out I see Paramount and Dreamworks continuing to support (Not push) HD-DVD, but I would imagine that you will see them getting their hands into BLU-Ray as well and eventually after "Fore filling their Obligation" pushing into the BLU-Ray Market.

I still think HD-DVD can have a purpose (Storage Media, Games for XBOX 360, Etc. Verbatim just announced the release of HD-DVD-R AND RW Discs, 15GB in 30 Minutes) things of that nature. But with that Microsoft even stated that they woudl put a BR Drive in the 360. Lets remember, Microsoft is a software compnay, not Hardware. It may have thier name on it, but they

would rather have soemone else build the XBOX360 and they will just deal with the games. They lose $$$ on every 360 they product, but the game is almost entirely profit.

I own a PS3, but own no BLU-Ray movies. I really wanted to see what was going to happen before I started spending $$$ on something that was either going to be the next wave or a Collectors Item.

I would think by XMAS 2008 their current library of BLU-Ray Titles which is small in both the Movie and Game Genre's will be expansive with what has happened.

BLU-Ray is still an expensive media market overall (Players, Recordable Drives, Media). And now that a decision has more or less been made, BLU-Ray will be in Demand and when there is a Demand, the prices will stay High.

The $399 PS3 is still the Value Item in the BLU-Ray player market when you think of it, and this will push that as well.

The PS3's 1.2 Million in Sales over the 2007 Holiday Season helped make this decision for the Movie Studios. The WII can't play BLU-Ray / HD-DVD or Regular DVDs. XBOX needs an accessory to play HD-DVD's. PS3 is ready to go on all fronts and is updateable when new Firmware comes out unlike most Home Player Units.

Overall, Media failures on one front do find homes on others. When the DVD came out we all wrote off CD's when in fact it was not DVD at all that is making CD's go away, Broadband is what is making CD's go away.

BLU-Ray can take one lesson from HD-DVD, soem HD-DVD Sets comes with the HD Version on one side of the Disc and the Standard DVD on the other. BLU-Ray should consider this as well rather then making 35 Editions of each movie.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 7:59 PM

Actually the cost of Blu-Ray movies, blank recordable media and hardware is way lower than that of DVD units just a few years ago. And prices kept falling and are going to fall at a faster pace than what happened to DVDs. This despite the fact that while DVD was a single standard and there was no format wars going on, the Blu-Ray had to get accepted by customers and the BDA alliance with Sony as its leader had to estabilish a customer base in order to win the format war.
Both me and another 4 friends of mine bought a PS3 each for watching BD movies on plasma, LCD panels and projectors. Just me and one out of those 4 added an XBox360 HD-DVD addon drive to our HTPCs for buying and watching some exclusive to HD-DVD movies like Transformers, Bourne trilogy, Heroes. But we never invested much into HD-DVD movies, whenever a Blu-Ray version was available we bought it, although the Warner releases have been practically the same on both formats so far, but now I hope they are going to make full use of the available space and higher allowed bitrates.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 9:01 PM

Blu-ray has consistently outsold HD DVD in software sales around the world. Never in 1½ years has there been a serious claim that Blu-ray has won the format war until this past weekend when Warner announced abandonment of HD DVD. All of a sudden, news sites the world over started declaring "the writing's on the wall", and "the death knell has been sounded".

The studios decided the outcome of this format war, no differently than the war between Betamax and VHS. The fact that Blu-ray only managed a steady 2:1 lead over HD DVD, coupled with the fact that HD DVD stand-alone players consistently outsold Blu-ray stand-alone units by a large margin in retail and online sales suggested strong demand for HD DVD in the U.S. by serious movie enthusiasts.

Consumers apparently had little say in the outcome of this format war. Large sums of cash and under-handed tactics by large corporations are usually great determining factors.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 5:06 AM

And for you the fact that Blu-Ray titles sold twice as much as HD-DVD ones means nothing ?
Toshiba didn't sell more HD-DVD players than BD ones on the market, even if you took into account the XBox360 add-on. You can't forget the PS3 units, that's where the Blu-Ray customer base is, everyone bought the PS3 for watching BD movies other than gaming.

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By siryak

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 9:29 PM

WRONG! Most people bought a PS3 for the games.(Which they aren't buying that many of either) Then considering the fact that it already has a Blu-Ray player they thought they might as well use it. Some didn't even use it and the attach rate clearly shows this. I have used my PS3 for Blu-Ray exclusives just like any normal person would do, but that is not what I bought it for. So hate to burst your bubble, but people aren't choosing Blu-Ray. They are being forced to buy it in order to get their game console.

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By siryak

posted Jan 13, 2008 - 7:23 PM

*pen drops*

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By hackztor

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 3:21 PM

Actually aredo the menu system is really cool. Once u used it you wonder how you lived without it. Thats why I prefered HDDVD until blueray profile 1.1. The internet part is way overrated but menus a def most have.

Score: 0

By aredo

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 8:00 PM

I prefer having a low quality static menu and even no menu at all to getting a lower bitrate main feature movie on the disc.

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By aredo

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 1:52 PM

No one other than Microsoft/Toshiba employees and supporters really care about interactive features.
Way less than 10% of people using DVD players actually watch any making-of and/or behind the scenes special features.
What really matters is video and audio quality and Blu-Ray discs and format allow for the best results, way better than what HD-DVD could ever provide.

What Sony and the BDA really have to add to Blu-Ray specifications, maybe with the next 2.1 specs or 2.5 maybe... is full support for upcoming 4-layer 100GB Blu-Ray and 6-layer 200GB Blu-Ray discs. The BD specs should be updated to allow for way higher overall muxed bitrates at that point, 1080p 60Hz H.264 support should be added as well.
These are the kind of things that the BDA and Sony must add.

Score: 0

By Yakumo

posted Jan 14, 2008 - 1:10 AM

Rubish, one has more space per layer, the other can do the same with more layers, so what.

and HD movies are far, far smaller than the disc capacity, and will remain so till long after even 1080p is surpassed.

visual and audio quality wise they're both as capable as each other, they are only seperated by features, and bluray is playing catchup on that and shafting their early customers in the process.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 11:22 PM

Also remember that the blu-ray camp constantly bashed and downplayed hd-dvd’s interactive superiority – until they caught up.

Score: 0

By uberfly

edited Jan 10, 2008 - 7:53 PM

"Way less than 10% of people using DVD players actually watch any making-of and/or behind the scenes special features."

Way less than 10%? Where do you get that figure? The extras are the bread and butter for the DVD sellers. It allows them to re-release special editions over and over. Disney, as one example, is a master of this. You may get dizzy at all that new resolution, there it's only part of the story. The extras aren't going anywhere. Besides, "way less than 10%" is a pretty dubious figure. I'd say a few more than that dare click over to all that extra "junk".

Score: 0

By siryak

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 9:32 PM

Exactly. I may not always look at all the special features, but I pretty much always look at the deleted/extended scenes.

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By aredo

posted Jan 11, 2008 - 5:10 AM

1) Putting the extras/special features on an additional disc allows for higher video/audio bitrates for the main feature on the first disc. This ensures an higher quality overall, that's the main reason why people prefer studios putting any extra feature on additional discs.
2) Special features 2-disc releases are collector's items and as such they can sell more--at least to those wanting to collect originals instead of downloading ripped and DiVX downscaled versions.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 7:56 PM

Exactly. That's why "double-dipped" DVD releases sell so well, time and time again.

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By pridewalker

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 3:39 PM

"Way less than 10% of people using DVD players actually watch any making-of and/or behind the scenes special features."

I agree with you on that statement. I rarely, if ever, looked at any bonus material (not including deleted scenes) on a DVD.

However, HD DVD changed that for me. By making it interactive (via PIP or the 'In Movie Experience'), some of that material became interesting. I'll admit that it started as a novelty (that 'check this out' kind of thing), but in a short time, it became something that I genuinely appreciated having. I'm not going to claim to watch every single piece put on a disc, but I do look at a much larger portion of it then I did on S-DVD.

Blu-ray (prior to 1.1) offered me nothing of the sort. All of the extra content sat on the disc, in a similar fashion as it did on DVD...which means that it largely went unwatched.

Both formats claimed to offer a next gen movie experience, and until recently, only HD DVD delivered more than the same content as DVD, with a better picture.

Score: 0

By ingram091

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 1:37 PM

Yea right!!! All I have to say is I KNEW what you people were going to see from day 1, that why I didn't buy them at all. My uncle fell for this garbage even with me telling him he is wasting his money, Just get a doubler and be happy with what you have... But NOOOO he had to spend $1400 on a Panasonic machine that has now had to be updated manually at least 5 times for new movies to work on it, and each time it gets more and more unstable. Lucky if the thing loads up at all anymore...

Sorry but this mess is Betamax all over again. Oh buy this machine its the best, wait no 6months later no no it was an early adopter thing get this instead but you people that paid a fourtune on the platform cant see it unless you buy a new machine now. Oh wait, Next year we will have other options that will play it all plus another new feature. So Wait for it...

Bla bla bla blady bla.. Whatever...

Do yourself a favor stay away from ANY of these, and get yourself a good line doubler or video scaler for your DVD. The media is cheaper and the machines are stead fast and proven. Problem solved.

Score: 0

By CorporateGreed

edited Jan 10, 2008 - 6:35 AM

This is your superior format people? Get a clue. You will be able to add your BluRay players to your collection of UMDs, Betas, MiniDisc. They don't care about you. Since you can't really enjoy all of your features on your disc, instead of buying a $700+ bluRay 2.0, buy a $200 HDDVD and I promise you will get all of those features and the capability of getting new features with the internet connectivity. Always has been that way always will.

Score: 0

By MikeTechno

posted Jan 10, 2008 - 5:12 AM

"Early adopters knew what they were getting into"

Are you freaking kidding me? I can guarantee you that is a lie because I sold many of those early adopeters their new $900 to $1,200 Blu-ray players at the retail store I work a