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Could Google Gears Make 'Cookies' Obsolete?

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

May 31, 2007, 4:29 PM

In what appears to be a serious and genuine attempt to take the lead in the growing Asynchronous JavaScript market - which was recently joined by Microsoft - Google may be trying to invent something that has already been invented before, perhaps several times: a way to implement a local data store for Web-based and remote applications run through the browser.

But what Google seeks to accomplish with its Gears toolset, released into beta this morning, may not be the invention itself but instead something all of its predecessors have failed to achieve: the establishment of an accepted standard.

Documents released by Google today show the company wants not only to develop a standard database mechanism for local clients using Web applications, but to encourage the rest of the industry to follow its methodology.

The key obstruction to the success of online, distributed applications over the last decade-and-a-half of the Web has been that there has been no single, accepted, reliable, and secure method for data to be maintained on behalf of local users, locally.

Users generally prefer for their personal data not to be stored on often unknown servers in frequently foreign countries. At the same time, they also prefer not to leave open any files to outside inspection, for fear (rightfully so) that the same mechanism that opens those files could open any others as well.

That said, Google Gears does not specify a new protocol, nor does it implement any security for transactions - for the latter, it relies upon session layer security, coupled with an adherence to the "same origin policy." Essentially, this means that no other identifiable resources are to be trusted for queries or requests other than the one which is running the local application to begin with - like a permanent blacklist.

Although this may seem contradictory to the whole notion of a distributed online application, realize that modular applications have varying scopes and contexts, and the functionality within which the Gears toolkit runs should be separated from the Web at large.

For example, Google's first application re-engineered for the Gears toolkit is its Google Reader application for maintaining simple RSS feed aggregation. You just can't store the user's repertoire of RSS feeds using cookies - the notorious small repositories for server-specific data on the client side - because cookies are typically pairs of data items (a name and its associated value) rather than lists of records.

It's tempting to create a text file on the client side which contains those records, but that would require access to the user's local file system - access which is typically blocked, with good reason.

Besides, for the running application to know for certain where a textual database file would be located, it might need to store that location in a centralized system file - for Windows, the System Registry. Giving any remote Web application even limited access to the System Registry is extremely dangerous.

So Google Gears' local store creates a data file that is accessible only from within the running Web application - only from the client side. Specifically, it can only respond to requests from the local application, placed using JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) - which is already well-utilized.

The Web doesn't access the local store; the Web application does. Therefore, there is no data interaction between a remote server and the local client's data store that isn't expressly specified by the JavaScript or AJAX application. A Web server may still request data from the local application, but it does not place the request to the local store directly - and the security of the entire architecture rests on this extra layer of abstraction.

Google's architectural model for Gears suggests that developers create an intermediate layer for handling data calls from a server, called a "Data Switch Layer." The poor naming of this concept alone is testament to the fact that all the other good names were taken, by concepts which have tried this before - most notably the data broker, which is a concept employed by both CORBA and Microsoft's Component Object Model.

In fact, besides its architecture and some more of its typically limited-vocabulary nomenclature, Google's principal contribution may not be technological at all, but rather a kind of unilateral movement to finally get browsers to implement a local data store in a rational way. And this time, because it's Google behind the movement, it could work.

A local data store would feasibly eliminate the need for cookies. Since cookies are very simplistic records, any type of server-side code could call upon them for purposes of tracking or recalling data about their user's behavior.

There's no way on the client side for software to ascertain whether a remote call to a cookie is being used for a purpose other than what the user might willfully permit, which is why anti-malware programs such as ZoneAlarm Pro and AdAware identify probable unwanted cookies by their origin rather than their presumed purpose.

If a Web site could instead place sophisticated database calls to a user's local store, conceivably, future client-side software could ascertain the nature of such calls, and perhaps permit or deny access according to policy-based rules set by the user.

So from a standpoint of security possibilities, the Google Gears scheme may become more preferable...assuming Web sites would be willing to open themselves up to being blocked on account of doubt on the part of their users. That's a big assumption, which may be why services that perform user browsing habits analysis using cookies, for instance, may stick to doing so.

Of course, if the Gears methodology catches on, users may become more inclined to block all cookies from sites that aren't willing to evolve. In such an event, Google Gears may end up contributing to the evolution of Web applications one way or the other: by evangelizing the open source development community, or by setting up the existing order of the Web for a long overdue round of obsolescence.

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By imafurby

posted Jun 4, 2007 - 10:07 AM

I think it's time (the) Google should think about changing their name now, I'm sick of it.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 4, 2007 - 12:47 PM

Yes, obviously. Now that it's a verb and 98% of the global population recognizes the name, they really should change it to something else.

Who needs all that Brand recognition, anyway, right?

/sarcasm

Score: 0

By imafurby

posted Jun 4, 2007 - 1:07 PM

That it's a verb is kind of creepy, but what the hey.

Score: 0

By mo_mo

posted Jun 3, 2007 - 2:11 AM

interesting...
i'm looking forward to see how google is going to change the internet =)

Score: 0

By sydneyttmm

posted Jun 2, 2007 - 8:49 AM

Interesting, this is cool, nearly made my day. :)

DVD Software
http://www.hotdvdtools.com

Score: 0

By twosheds

posted Jun 2, 2007 - 10:22 AM

Nuke sydney and his girlfriend below from orbit, please.

Score: 0

By Julia00116

posted Jun 2, 2007 - 4:17 AM

Interesting, this is cool, nearly made my day. :)

Video Converter
http://www.allvideotools.com

Score: 0

By horsecharles

edited Jun 1, 2007 - 4:07 PM

Score: 0

By horsecharles

edited Jun 1, 2007 - 4:03 AM

When DotNet_Coder comes marching home again,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give him a hearty welcome then
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The men will cheer and the boys will shout
The ladies they will all turn out
And we'll all feel great,
When DotNet_Coder comes marching home!!!

The old church bell will peal with joy
Hurrah! Hurrah!
To welcome home our darling boy
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The village lads and lassies say
With roses they will strew the way,
And we'll all feel great
When DotNet_Coder comes marching home!!!

Get ready for the Jubilee,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give the hero three times three,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The laurel wreath is ready now
To place upon his loyal brow
And we'll all feel great
When DotNet_Coder comes marching home!!!!!!!!!

PS with all due & humble apologies to the other significant segment of our population:
just like you'd prefer going forward, rather than straight, towards your destinations...
the rest of us would prefer to feel glad or great instead.

God bless all those of good will!!!

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 9:11 AM

What the hell...?

Score: 0

By twosheds

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 7:31 AM

Dosage may need revision...

Score: 0

By horsecharles

edited Jun 1, 2007 - 9:14 AM

Dosage definition: http://www.chef-de-race.com/dosage/review.htm

But this dosage may be more helpful: http://www.collectivesou...bumID=113&TypeID=11

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosage_%28album%29

Score: 0

By DotNet_Coder

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 10:51 AM

I'm not sure if I should be flattered or frightened. lol

I really hope it's the former and not the latter... ;-)

Score: 0

By horsecharles

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 1:02 PM

You made such eloquent, informed, & incisive arguments...in such a classy manner to boot. If you ever wish to run for President, ya got my vote.

Score: 0

By DotNet_Coder

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 1:49 PM

LOL... no way... I don't think the US Government understands basic software concepts... like best patterns and practices or user acceptance testing... I could never work in such a disorganized environment. ;-)

Thanks for the vote of confidence though...

~dnc

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited Jun 1, 2007 - 2:00 PM

But just wait until the "developer community" delivers a "stern warning" to the government!

Oh, but wait, the "developer community" has been responsible for most of the flawed implementations of software apps and web based apps that have been directly responsible for a substantial amount of data breaches...

Yup, the developer's KNOW security. Besides, for convenience and TCO, they have all moved to remote hosted email. Just look for them on Yahoo. "Its Soooo convenient" one member of the "developer community" was quoted as saying...

Of course, another was overheard bemoaning, "Hey, its so unfair of them to hold us responsible, after all, the idiots should have known better and encrypted their data! Trust me."

Score: 0

By horsecharles

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 4:08 PM

http://www.cio.com/article/print/114550

Score: 0

By Alex Stevens

posted May 31, 2007 - 6:23 PM

No.

Score: 0

By RCS

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 9:18 AM

Yes.

Score: 0

By Alex Stevens

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 7:53 PM

No.

Score: 0

By adrian47uk

posted May 31, 2007 - 6:15 PM

Time to find another search engine, Google is getting too big for it's boots. at least with cookies, I know for sure that I have blocked the ones I want and even delete them off my computer.

This Google Gears thing, seem like another way of snooping.

Score: 0

By The MAZZTer

edited Jun 1, 2007 - 9:45 AM

Google Gears will ask the user if they want to allow a website to use Gears before it actually does anything. Even Google's own Gear apps trigger such a prompt.

Furthermore, Gears' local store uses a database. It's far more sophisticated than just cookies, and and any developer will tell you that large amounts of data (especially tabular data) NEED a database to be stored in. Cookies just wouldn't cut it.

Score: 0

By DotNet_Coder

edited May 31, 2007 - 7:41 PM

I fail to see how it is a way of snooping anything? I suppose that as a developer, I know a lot about the ins and outs of how browsers interact with the OS and the security wrapped around that.

Like I said below, IE has had this functionality for years and while not many people use it, it's there with all of it's security warnings and everything.

http://msdn2.microsoft.c...s/library/ms531424.aspx

So, aside from the fact that this is Google, and it's going to be cross-browser, how is it any different? well, first off, they are locking access to locally originating, client-side calls only. (http://code.google.com/apis/gears/security.html)

So, can someone come up with a VALID reason why this is so bad? Aside from the fact that it is from Google?

Score: 0

By athome

posted Jun 4, 2007 - 2:05 AM

I think the last comment gives us all the reasons why it is bad. They are merely a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Score: 0

By horsecharles

posted May 31, 2007 - 9:38 PM

I totally agree.
And we have to trust 'someone' in this world-- unless if we want a Ruby Ridge-type of underground life: no credit, no business grants, no job application--(or be able to lie like heck on each-- not just for privacy reasons, but to suit our nefarious reasons w/ no chance of getting outed).

Score: 0

By Program86

posted May 31, 2007 - 5:38 PM

GOOGLE is the BEST, Jerry... Its the BEST!

Score: 0

By The Dave

posted May 31, 2007 - 5:05 PM

Google is the Devil!

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted May 31, 2007 - 5:33 PM

Jerk.

You just had to do that didn't you?

Ruined my day.... :p

Score: 0

By The Dave

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 4:38 PM

It's okay to want me.......everybody does. :D

Score: 0

By horsecharles

posted May 31, 2007 - 9:34 PM

PC, i thought you were the devil...(grin)..,

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 11:31 AM

Only on weekends.

Score: 0

By horsecharles

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 1:08 PM

T.G.I.F. http://hurl.samples.dmpc...10006550&cid=600109

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited May 31, 2007 - 4:57 PM

"Of course, if the Gears methodology catches on, users may become more inclined to block all cookies from sites that aren't willing to evolve. In such an event, Google Gears may end up contributing to the evolution of Web applications one way or the other: by evangelizing the open source development community, or by setting up the existing order of the Web for a long overdue round of obsolescence."

Yup, we can block them bad old cookies in exchange for a ubiquitous Registry based repository just ready to provide vendors with much more personal information in a manner that cannot be easily screened by the user.

Sorry folks, but if you Ever had questions about MS scanning your system, you now have a corporate giant totally consumed with doing much more than that!

Google + DoubleClick... that has a ring that makes the concept of Big Brother obsolete...as well as any concept of online privacy.

Gee, in the span of just 7 years Google has gone from innovative to just plain unwanted.
And where are all of those folks who just several months ago were drooling over the prospect of online Google apps...but no! security wouldn't be an issue! It certainly won't if you have no privacy. It simply eliminates the need to download data!

Score: 0

By DotNet_Coder

posted May 31, 2007 - 5:12 PM

"Yup, we can block them bad old cookies in exchange for a ubiquitous Registry based repository just ready to provide vendors with much more personal information in a manner that cannot be easily screened by the user."

Nowhere does it state that Gears is registry based. In fact, quite the opposite ("So Google Gears' local store creates a data file that is accessible only from within the running Web application - only from the client side. Specifically, it can only respond to requests from the local application, placed using JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) - which is already well-utilized."). Cookies have been notoriously insecure for years. As developers, we know it and would love to get rid of them. Your statement really doesn't make sense.

"Sorry folks, but if you Ever had questions about MS scanning your system, you now have a corporate giant totally consumed with doing much more than that!"

There is a little know feature in IE called the User Data Store. It's a feature that is turned off by default, but is almost the same in execution. Problem is, IE only.

All in all, it's a concept that has been tried MANY times and still has not been perfected by anyone. The only reason the cookie came into existance is because it was at a time when security wasn't that much of a concern. Now, most of us know better and a better, persistan store is required for the next wave of online applications.

If you are going to flame Google, flame away, but at least make sure that you know why they are behind this, what the technology is supposed to do and what the safeguards in place are.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted May 31, 2007 - 5:04 PM

Sorry folks, but if you Ever had questions about MS scanning your system, you now have a corporate giant totally consumed with doing much more than that!

Google + DoubleClick... that has a ring that makes the concept of Big Brother obsolete...as well as any concept of online privacy.


Translation:

Everyone who was paranoid before can now be even *more* paranoid.

The rest of us can actually start using better tech.

Score: 0

By DotNet_Coder

posted May 31, 2007 - 5:12 PM

LOL Tool... snuck in before I could... darn it.

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited May 31, 2007 - 9:16 PM

So Google is a major backer of the Web-hosted application model, which has been gaining momentum over the past year or so. And because applications are hosted by vendors, the premise is that customers generally spend less time, effort and money deploying and maintaining them than packaged software they install on their own servers.

Another perceived benefit is that these Web-hosted applications often are designed from the ground up to allow groups of users to share documents easily and collaborate on them online, instead of each employee working individually on a file on his PC and later using e-mail to gather feedback on it. A perception indeed...

However, real challenges exist for the hosted model, including concerns about the availability and reliability of vendors' servers and about the security of corporate data when it is housed externally on vendors' premises.

This exposure, which is REAL, and Google's purchasing of Doubleclick...& let just start with click analysis and then move up to the other levels and methods of scrutiny their service is able to 'offer'... and you have More than just a few concerns.

This combined with Google's recently stated desires to gather and actively harvest deeper levels of user data in addition to making available More customer data and you have what?

Greater privacy, security and autonomy? Right!

Let's see, can we put together what the right hand is doing with what the left hand is doing?

Better tech??? More convenient. More elegant. And much more ubiquitous. But unfortunately its all to Google's benefit and to the increased risk and exposure of the client.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 9:14 AM

Translation:

Google bought Doubleclick! Obviously their going to use this new power for EEEEVIL!!!

Give it a rest, man. You're starting to sound like Mermaid Man.

Score: 0

By DotNet_Coder

posted May 31, 2007 - 11:39 PM

"So Google is a major backer of the Web-hosted application model, which has been gaining momentum over the past year or so. And because applications are hosted by vendors, the premise is that customers generally spend less time, effort and money deploying and maintaining them than packaged software they install on their own servers.

Another perceived benefit is that these Web-hosted applications often are designed from the ground up to allow groups of users to share documents easily and collaborate on them online, instead of each employee working individually on a file on his PC and later using e-mail to gather feedback on it. A perception indeed..."

Yes, and the lowered TOC is valuable to anyone trying to save money. Obviously Google can't just do whatever they want with private data. I suspect that as these companies start using more and more hosted apps, they are going to come up with enforceable laws and NDAs to protect their data.

"However, real challenges exist for the hosted model, including concerns about the availability and reliability of vendors' servers and about the security of corporate data when it is housed externally on vendors' premises.

This exposure, which is REAL, and Google's purchasing of Doubleclick...& let just start with click analysis and then move up to the other levels and methods of scrutiny their service is able to 'offer'... and you have More than just a few concerns."

Granted, both valid points. But, when co-location was first becoming prevelant, the same concerns were brought up then too. Guess what? Lowered TCO and higher availability won out over the security concerns and continues to. More and more companies are moving to a centrallized model when it comes to the location of both data and hardware. Small companies, large companies, all the same. There is a trust that is established.

Sure, Google's purchase of DoubleClick is suspicious, but that is one facet of the company. 90% of the technology that Google backs or produces ends up becoming main-stream and accepted. Those are the facts. Even if Gears is a way for them to get at private data, there are litterally hundreds of companies that will examine every single line of code and see exactly what it is doing and how. If there WERE a way for Google to get at the data stored in Gears, it would be released, Google would be given a stern talking to by the development community and Gears would fade into history like most of the other endevours in this sapce. Like I said, look at MSFT's technology or countless others. The only difference here is that it's Google backing it and making it.

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited Jun 1, 2007 - 1:49 PM

"Like I said, look at MSFT's technology or countless others. The only difference here is that it's Google backing it."

Good. I really don't care who backs it.

"Granted, both valid points. But, when co-location was first becoming prevelant, the same concerns were brought up then too. Guess what? Lowered TCO and higher availability won out over the security concerns and continues to. More and more companies are moving to a centrallized model when it comes to the location of both data and hardware. Small companies, large companies, all the same. There is a trust that is established."

Spoken like a programmer who is totally uninvolved with Information Assurance.

I will have to remember to quote this in our next security proposal. And I will leave a copy for the company to add to their policies and procedures with instructions that they make sure the auditors read that they have established a "trust" relationship...based upon just that!...professions of 'trust'. Now if we could just get music to play in the background... Perhaps the auditors will be kept busy ROFLTAO and just might overlook other problems.

Bottomline, neither (assuming Gears is essentially identical) is compliant with SOX, HIPPA, ISO17799, nor COBIT security standards.

It may be convenient. But it doesn't pass muster from the security perspective.

And a "stern talking too" just doesn't quite cut it if sensitive or proprietary data is breached and damages are done to a company - either through the direct exposure of the data or due to more subtle compromise within the competitive market space.

But let's not forget the rest of the rigorous enforcement mechanism: they "would be given a stern talking to by the development community"!!! Oh no! Not by the "Development Community"! No Br'er Fox, PLEASE don't throw me into that brier patch!

Yup, by the same development community that has thus far failed to squelch the source of so many data compromises enabled by their less then perfect programming practices. So I guess that companies like Spy Dynamics should see their future as rather limited? Yeah, right!

But I love how Tool so easily and glibly writes off the potential for security breaches in the broad sense and you both so glibly reduce the ramifications to someone receiving a "stern talking to".

That may be appropriate in the 3rd grade, but in the real world, such draconian measures to control damage (you know, the ubiquitous fear of "a lecture"!) - especially after the fact when the actions are essentially meaningless. But specifying that folks who are responsible for malfeasance will receive a "stern talking to" should impress your auditors to no end...if they can manage to stop laughing. ("Gee, weese sooooo sorry! But we promise not to do it again! TRUST us!")

Let's just say that it falls 'a bit short' in the verifiable and enforceable categories.

Argue all you like about the ease and elegance of the programming model. Ease of programming is wonderful (and not surprisingly is the source of most data compromise - especially via web based application compromise), but real verifiable security seems to transcend those concerns.

And thus far the focus whereupon Google has spent Considerable monies, does not bode well for anyone for whom either personal or enterprise data security is concerned...regardless of how easy it is to program!

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 3:17 PM

And thus far the focus whereupon Google has spent Considerable monies, does not bode well for anyone for whom either personal or enterprise data security is concerned...regardless of how easy it is to program!

People (home users) can control what data they allow this central store to hold much easier than they can do with cookies. (Aside from the best practice of simply never giving personal data) Regarding Enterprises, this kind of thing can be either entirely unused, or secured from allowing any data to leave the local network / protected path.

Security concerns aside (which I am sure will prove to be a bit less of an issue than you make it out to be) this tech is far more useful on todays web than cookies, which have far outlived their usefulness.

Score: 0

By DotNet_Coder

posted Jun 1, 2007 - 3:07 PM

First off, let me apologize in advance for flipping between the hosted applications argument and the Gears argument.

" Spoken like a programmer who is totally uninvolved with Information Assurance.

I will have to remember to quote this in our next security proposal. And I will leave a copy for the company to add to their policies and procedures with instructions that they make sure the auditors read that they have established a "trust" relationship...based upon just that!...professions of 'trust'. Now if we could just get music to play in the background... Perhaps the auditors will be kept busy ROFLTAO and just might overlook other problems.

Bottomline, neither (assuming Gears is essentially identical) is compliant with SOX, HIPPA, ISO17799, nor COBIT security standards."

I work for a large financial company and deal with Information Assurance daily (my current project is writing triple-pass AES encryption routines). Believe me when I say we are very much involved with SOX, HIPPA and COBIT compliance. We have very detailed contracts with both our DR site owners and our Co-Location owners. Were any data to be leaked or lost, the consequences would be severe, to say the least. In the move to distributed applications and even hosted applications, those same contracts would be applied and updated to reflect the new environment. Most companies will not just ignore the details of a binding contract protecting their customer’s data, especially a company as large as Google. The consequences would be too severe. Were we discussing some small operation that was offering to host and store sensitive information, obviously this discussion wouldn’t be happening. Given that my company is SOX, HIPPA, and COBIT compliant and we have both internal and hosted applications with a host provider, tell me how this violates security? We test and scrutinize every application that we develop and we acquire for shared hosting. We then certify those applications if they pass. Guess what? We are not alone out there. There are many companies that are doing the same exact thing.

As for the topic at hand, who’s to say that Gears doesn’t pass the security muster? Have you personally scoured through every line of the applications personally and traced each and every call between Gears and the browser? Has anyone on your security enforcement team as of yet? Until that point in time, it is ridiculous to just assume that this is another attempt to expose or capture sensitive company data. Also, let’s not forget who’s really going to start using this technology first. It’s going to be internal applications which are *usually* protected behind heavy corporate firewalls (the ones that aren’t and are storing sensitive data needs to be breached or educated, or both), and first adopters looking to enhance their shopping carts, or just showcasing what can be done with it. We are not talking about companies moving their financial reporting software and analysis tools to the web. Also, cookies in and of themselves are even worse than Gears. How many companies are making millions off of the whole “remove your cookies because of security risks” racket? Until someone comes up with a truly encrypted storage, encrypted transport scheme for client-stored data, there are going to be risks. At least Gears has the encrypted storage part down. Can we say that about cookies?

“And a "stern talking too" just doesn't quite cut it if sensitive or proprietary data is breached and damages are done to a company - either through the direct exposure of the data or due to more subtle compromise within the competitive market space.

If the company hires developers that are stupid enough to store sensitive information in client storage, then that company deserves to be breached. Any enterprise developer above the junior grade level has been taught and knows instinctively not to store sensitive information in a compromising situation. If they do, then the company in question needs to have a hard look at their hiring and interviewing policies and hire better developers.

“But let's not forget the rest of the rigorous enforcement mechanism: they "would be given a stern talking to by the development community"!!! Oh no! Not by the "Development Community"! No Br'er Fox, PLEASE don't throw me into that brier patch!”

Where do you think at least 80% of the things that you do on a computer gets their first acceptance? The development community at large drives companies to produce better technologies because the development community is usually the early and first adopters and also the ones who manage to get those technologies into the mainstream public’s use. When a company gets chastised enough by said community, it *usually* changes its actions pretty quickly. Take Microsoft, for instance. In the past 5 years, they have completely changed their development methodologies to include and design their products based upon the massive feedback they get from developers. Countless other companies are doing the same thing. Gears is an open-source product and as such will require the acceptance of the development community to be a success and if it doesn’t pass the muster, it will fail and just be another fatality on the long highway of client-storage technologies.

“Yup, by the same development community that has thus far failed to squelch the source of so many data compromises enabled by their less then perfect programming practices.”

Granted, there have been many developers in the past who have failed to rise to the mark of total information assurance. No argument there. But, the current trend has been that training and business process management is on the rise. Developers are being more educated about how their actions directly affect others and can compromise security practices. How many years did it take the car to become fully safe? Oh, that’s right. We are still on that path. The same can be said of application development now and going forward.

”So I guess that companies like Spy Dynamics should see their future as rather limited? Yeah, right!”

I fail to see how this is relevant. Network monitoring and remote control has to do with this discussion how?

“But I love how Tool so easily and glibly writes off the potential for security breaches in the broad sense and you both so glibly reduce the ramifications to someone receiving a "stern talking to".”

Tool and I have never once written off any potential for security breaches for ease of use. If this current attempt by Google to bring new technology to user community were wrought with security holes and even the slightest possibility of data compromise, I would be the first one to argue against its use. Given that no one has yet to have a chance to really test it and post the security implications, then isn’t your bashing of it a bit premature?

“Let's just say that it falls 'a bit short' in the verifiable and enforceable categories.

Argue all you like about the ease and elegance of the programming model. Ease of programming is wonderful (and not surprisingly is the source of most data compromise - especially via web based application compromise), but real verifiable security seems to transcend those concerns.”

Again, where is your proof that this application in question falls short in being verifiable and enforceable? Yes, the programming model is easy, as it should be. As for being the source of most data compromise, I would have to say “spoken as a true end user”. Data compromise happens whether or not the programming model is easy. It happens because companies are still learning how to enforce development processes and teach developers about security, protection and how to leverage it. As programming languages evolve, language level security is becoming more and more prevalent and enforced.

“And thus far the focus whereupon Google has spent Considerable monies, does not bode well for anyone for whom either personal or enterprise data security is concerned...regardless of how easy it is to program!”

Where is your proof of where Google has not focused any considerable amount of money into security of their product offerings? Has there been some report of one of their hosted offerings being breached? If so, I have yet to hear about it. We again have no proof that the acquisition of DoubleClick is going to prove to be harmful to end users and/or users of their hosted applications. How about their acquisition of Green Border? (http://www.betanews.com/...ecurity_Firm/1180472343). Does that suggest that Google wants to destroy security now? Following your logic, it would seem so.

I still disagree with your allegations of the lack of security in both this technology and of hosted applications in general. Both can be secure when deployed with common sense and enforceable policies.

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited Jun 1, 2007 - 4:49 PM

The irony is that self imposed developer communities initiatives have failed to adequately drive security.

Otherwise incredibly expensive and intrusive legislation such as SOX would not have been mandated.

And whether or not your company is compliant with security procedures is Not a measure that a technology you may be interested in is! Especially as your company doesn't have the choice any longer! Unfortunately it took SOX to FORCE companies to undertake this with MUCH kicking and screaming! And ironically the kicking and screaming seems have been even worse withIN the IT development community! But in any regards, being subjected to security requirements is not the same as developing and testing them.

And talk about what MS has done in the last 5 years. When you look at their entire history with which this issue has been an issue, its FAR too little too late! And Vista fails to even address Web based appls!

And SPI Dynamics is simply a network security? You might do well to investigate their application and web-app development security tools.

The bottom line is that Google has just engaged in one of the largest buyouts of a company whose entire purpose is to track, report and discover user data and usage patterns. And to a large degree these activities are diametrically opposed to the maintenance of individual and enterprise security. Be it their data, their usage and communication patterns, or even with whom they are collaborating online.

And between Google's explicitly expressed desire to expand their active participation in this realm, and DoubleClick's checkered past doing exactly such, there is no reason to suspect that either will radically change their approach. In fact, there is every reason to expect an increased demand for more exhaustive capabilities.

And you mention of their attention to internal security is moot. What they do to insure their own security is not necessarily the same as will be afforded to others. And you can be sure that they are not keen to subjecting their data and resources to the scrutiny of other companies engaged in the same activities with which they are pursuing nor are they casually employing distributed web based apps that, while you state MAY develop policies and procedures that are verifiable and actively enforced, do not currently exist. So the 'woulda, shoulda, coulda' talk is all well and good. But at present it is nothing but air. And a heartfelt "trust me". Add to that that most critical data breaches are not of customer data as most think. They are not the compromise of SS# or credit card numbers. It is the trafficking in strategic information which provides others a competitive strategic advantage. And you never hear about these!

And the use of remote hosted services, rather than being the norm, are severely restricted in MANY environments for precisely the risks they portend, despite your prognostication of their rosy future.

In each case you refer to security measures that may be developed in response to such technologies. The problem here is that security policies and effective management schemes are not being developed concurrently and at a fundamental level and relationship with such technologies. And history has consistently shown the vested interests of each group to be diametrically opposed. And to date we have yet to develop a schema where such communication of authorized information is balanced adequately and 'easily' by effective security mechanisms. And this is no different. And simple assurances that there will be policies and procedures developed is inadequate.

SMBs may indeed find them convenient. But secure environments are not employing them. Heck, remote access is still an issue made easier only by the advent of SSL based VPNs offering extremely granular control in conjunction with extremely complex additional tools. But if you have had the unfortunate duty of writing Protection Profiles fully compliant with TCSEC and Common Criteria for Trusted System compliance, you would know that. And you would also know that in the 'top secret' realms common in government and many government related endeavors, this practice is strictly prohibited.

My concern is over the general movement of a large entity to effectively control such capture and dissemination of data. But moreover, I am concerned with how such data can be used 'unofficially' if the desire presented itself.

And unfortunately your simple assurances that industry conferences and trust and stern warnings, while they may ally SMBs and others who are posting college term papers - most of which are technically comprised of others material to begin with, are inadequate to satisfy existing standards that already relegate many of the convenience features you tout moot.
And like it or not, GEARS is only a very very small part of a much larger trend in a much larger context embodied by enterprises such as Google. And it is this trend that is of much more concern.

So I enjoy your 'security is here now if you want it' approach. Unfortunately there is a much larger world out there, and just a few folks in it either don't share your rosy prognostication, and still others are betting against it! And the move to remote hosted and provisioned apps, with policies and procedures to come, and security oversight yet to be even developed, let alone included in an integrated fashion with input form independent security agents as opposed to simple users, relegates the promise of the technology to just that... Lots of claims of convenience without the verified security tools and assurance that are necessary for wide scale verifiable and enforceable security compliance.

"Granted, there have been many developers in the past who have failed to rise to the mark of total information assurance. No argument there. But, the current trend has been that training and business process management is on the rise. Developers are being more educated about how their actions directly affect others and can compromise security practices. How many years did it take the car to become fully safe? Oh, that’s right. We are still on that path."

OK, so with that bit of insight we are simply now supposed to jump on the new technology by virtue that some of the same idiots are being retrained - but the process by which this technology is being brought to market is the same as in the past and an integral security model has not been developed as a fundamental aspect of the package. I guess those ActiveX folks are still in re-training. But when will the process be modified to incorporate security as a fundamental concern? Assurances and trends are not quite enough to make me forget reality and suddenly get in line for the next "I'm sure it will work... I think... Trust me" environment. Or heck, if it doesn't, they will develop some policies and procedures afterwards!"

And your statement that questions "allegations of the lack of security in both this technology and of hosted applications in general" simply ignores reality.

LOL! The allegations are more of 'secure' access, as insecure access is the norm! It is the exceptional environment where remote access that is truly secure! And remote apps and storage and ESPECIALLY web based apps are traditionally by far the easiest resources to compromise! After all, even you are suggesting that policies and procedures "will be" developed. Quite a band -aid, that. Not exactly a security from the bottom up approach!

We'll wait until a more mature model is proposed - one which endeavors to include fundamental security safeguards from inception...not promises that someone may choose to develop them at a future date.

Score: 0