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Dueling Think Tanks Debate Fate of Windows on European PCs

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

September 24, 2007, 2:32 PM

Last week's ruling by the European Court of First Instance (CFI) upholding the European Commission's 2004 finding against Microsoft and its subsequent Statement of Objections, may open the door for the EC to take unprecedented action. Commissioner for Competition Neelie Kroes stated she's open to suggestion, and today one response came from the respected Brussels-based Globalisation Institute think tank: Force manufacturers by law to sell PCs without operating systems pre-installed or bundled.

"We decided that the best way to approach competition was simply to insist that operating systems are purchased separately from desktop and laptop computers," reads a white paper published by the GI this morning (PDF available here). "This, we believe, would have a significant effect on the market share of Windows, providing the competitive marketplace that Ms. Kroes has called for. Price conscious consumers, including many students, would opt for cheaper operating systems."

Windows' market share numbers have indeed been on Commissioner Kroes' mind. In a press conference on the day of the CFI ruling, she said, "The Decision upheld by the Court is particularly important because so many people use computers, be they individual consumers, schools, businesses or governments, and because 95% of the world's personal computers run Microsoft's Windows PC operating system." Later, she added, "Businesses and individuals are faced with no more choice than they were three years ago when the Commission adopted its Decision. Microsoft's market share has grown to 80% for work group servers - up from some 40% when the Commission's investigation began."

Kroes' comments have led to some debate over whether the true test of a company's competitiveness is the market share it holds. Although there are many - including the Globalisation Institute - who argue that Windows' dominance is due in large part to a lack of choice in the market, assuming the choice were actually balanced, any law which penalized the maker of one of those choices for holding an 85% share or greater might actually work against successful competition.

That's the point made just last week by the UK's Adam Smith Institute, whose research director Alex Singleton left two years ago to found the Globalisation Institute. In a blog posting last Tuesday, ASI member Alex Williams wrote, "This neo-protectionist economic agenda is forming a policy cloak for the anti-Americanism of many European Commissioners, and it is European citizens who stand to suffer from it.

"At a time when the global competitiveness of European firms is tumbling down the international league tables," Williams continued, "the Commission has decided to make investment in the EU less attractive. They thinly mask the old socialist aim of punishing success under the guise of defending competition. The European Commission thus displays a fundamental incomprehension of the nature of competition. Its insistence that small businessmen be assisted - and thereby competition preserved - by forcing Microsoft to share product information with competitors, demonstrates an unfortunate tendency to try for a pre-conceived economic outcome, rather than a valid process."

One example of a pre-conceived outcome might be a diminished market share number for Windows, which is clearly one aim of the GI's suggestion to the EC. Since computers have already become commoditized, its white paper argues, there's no reason for there not to be as many as ten different operating systems available for them.

In such a market, the ten OS vendors would be compelled to find ways to work together, especially to enable software vendors to continue to develop for a broad base of users. If the market were naturally competitive, compatibility would be a natural outcome.

"Or, to put it another way, if there are ten major operating system vendors, independent software houses are going to write their software using coding tools and 'programming libraries' that will enable their software to work on all the systems," the GI white paper continued, "rather than just one. Competition would encourage open standards and interoperability as vendors would, for competitive reasons, want their products to interact with other vendors' products."

PC vendors would then have the option of distributing any or all of these operating systems with their systems, though the white paper does not describe this form of distribution as "bundling." To activate their computers after purchase, customers would insert the DVD containing the operating system of their choice, and it would automatically install itself. The paper did warn that PC vendors would need to provide the appropriate base set of drivers in order that the DVD containing the operating system could actually be installed.

In this ideal market, the paper concluded, savvy customers - including college students - would choose the "cheaper" operating system, thus driving Windows' market share down. This presumes, of course, that Windows always remains the most expensive choice.

This morning, the GI report was blasted by JupiterResearch analyst Michael Gartenberg. "Unbundling would not reduce costs (and less than 10% of the cost of software over the life of a PC comes from software acquisition costs)," Gartenberg wrote, "and choice is a bit of a myth. Users want choice when what they have is lacking. Users can choose to use Linux or Mac OS, many do and many more don't."

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By Eeyan

edited Sep 28, 2007 - 5:41 PM

Unbundling makes good sense. Consumer will decide whether to buy Windows, Linux... or whatever OS they choose. Thus having a choice, rather than an imposition to use Windows. Another aspect is MS pricing... it varies too much around the world.

Score: 0

By rsx508

edited Sep 25, 2007 - 9:28 PM

Here's an idea: How about putting this to a public vote for EU citizens to decide what THEY want? Or Microsoft should just pull out of Europe altogether? Yeah, that's a solution (not!). The EU is just bent on being a pain to the US, even though we continue to bail them out war after war after war.

Funny also how nobody gets upset at how Apple bundles all their stuff on OSX. Double standard.

Score: 0

By Eeyan

posted Sep 28, 2007 - 5:34 PM

"even though we continue to bail them out war after war after war." Go read about the business dealing some US companies had with the Nazis prior to joining in the war. Plus you too may have had to live under Nazi or Jap rule if the US hadn't become involved.

Score: 0

By foxfyre

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 12:51 PM

The EU is simply continuing in their restrictive anti-trade maneuvering begun with ISO9000.

Its a shame they can't compete.

Oh, and the Mac has not been deemed a monopoly, thus bundling products is no more a violation than is bundling with Linux.

But as the EU deems iTunes a virtual monopoly, they HAVE gone after their proprietary format! Oh...

But the tractor blockades of EuroDisney sure are kool. And they do prevent a few folks from buying a ridiculously overpriced EuroDisney tshirt that cost $85 back in 1994! So they do accomplish the goal of saving us from ourselves.

But hey, the EU doesn't complain about those prices, cause after all. how else will they pay for their failing socialized social programs (aside from declaring themselves entitled to MS and Apple's profits???)

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 7:01 AM

i agree, if this is going to be the rule, make it for everyone, no goose and gander sub rulings

Score: 0

By Marth

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:12 PM

Lol - like this will make any difference. for the very budget minded, it'll be great. People will use BSD or Linux.

For those wanting to play games...they will buy Windows.

And if they do this, this also means that Apple cannot sell OS/X on their systems, and will have to sell it separately. People will buy the apple for the looks, and install Vista/XP on the system for functionality...

I love this idea - simply because it won't do much of anything.

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited Sep 26, 2007 - 12:33 PM

"Lol - like this will make any difference. for the very budget minded, it'll be great. People will use BSD or Linux."

If only (as I love BSD).

And they can save even more money on apps! Made easier by the fact that they can't find any... LOL

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 2:25 PM

um i just thought of this, recovery cds for perepherals... this is HUGE for the average customer, to have a recovery cd..
if you have linux, OSX or Windows, the drivers cd/dvd are going to be different..

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited Sep 26, 2007 - 12:39 PM

A "recovery disk" for a peripheral?
Huh???

Oh, you must be referring to the CD/DVD that comes bundled with the peripheral containing what is most likely an out of date driver that you need to update from the manufacturer's web site.

You already have one. Is that working for you? Obviously not.

Yup, its gonna be "Huge".... ROFLMAO

Next...

Score: 0

By foxfyre

edited Sep 25, 2007 - 1:48 PM

Eliminating the necessary bundling of the OS with the machine is a good thing.

But will it make much of a difference?

In your dreams. ...Like my mother has been chomping at the bit for a reason to try Linux. ;-)))))

And as far as lowering costs? Perhaps for those X% who run Linux and are still trying to find apps and drivers. But are there some new viable OS alternatives of which we are unaware? Nope.

People can buy machines with Linux bundled now. So anyone wishing this can already get it.

Nope, the only change will be seeing more clueless folks lined up at the Best Buy service counter paying ridiculous prices for someone to stick a CD/DVD into the drive and pressing a button.

I would love to see several of the large US compnaies simply say "OK, EU. You don't like it. You don't have to buy it. And by the way, we expect you to be just as vigilant in stopping software piracy and eliminating unlicensed copies in businesses."

Watch the EU whine then!

One wonders just when the EU will actually produce something original of value instead of simply deciding how much of others' efforts they self-righteously declare themselves entitled?

Maybe the EU can start by demanding to pay for their share of the UN costs...and by reimbursing the US for the expenses in stopping the genocide in Bosnia...

Score: 0

By Lawrence01

edited Sep 25, 2007 - 12:05 PM

I wish they did this in the U.S. If consumers had to purchase windows separately, then either Microsoft would have to lower the cost of its o/s or lose market share, which is a good thing.

Score: 0

By Marth

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:13 PM

No it's not - because most people play games on their pc's...and 98% of the games on the market for PCs are for Windows.

do the math.

Score: 0

By xyzcb1

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 1:41 PM

MS will not lose any market share. The only loser in this case is consumers. PC maker are happy to sell you a barebone system. They can get rid of their technical support, which will save them tons of money. And MS will make more money, instead of sell OEM to PC Makers, consumers now have to buy retails.

Of course, the Mac has to give consumers options too by open up the system.

Score: 0

By Grazer

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:44 PM

Actually, MS probably would lose market share, but not because of more choice, but because of less of one. The average computer user will not be able to install their own OS, and will not want to deal with the hassle of taking their new machine to have an OS installed. This will probably decrease pc sales overall. If OS-less machines were required across the board, we would probably see at least a marginal increase in market share of the cheapest OSes anyways; but since this seems like it would focus only on Windows computers, other OSes that are allowed to be pre-installed would likely flourish, or at least show no decrease in their market...giving them a larger share of a smaller market.

And I really don't think PC manufacturers will be jumping with joy at the idea of their technical support departments having to add "Have you installed an OS?" to their list of standard questions to ask the caller...right after "Is the computer plugged in?".

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 10:54 AM

The EU wants to see the PC standard become a competitive platform again. That is a near impossible task. After more than a decade of allowing anti-competitive behavior that has most peoples data locked up in proprietary file formats there are not many competitors left. They might have better luck resurrecting the dodo bird.

The only hope for real choices reappearing in the marketplace is interoperability based on free and open standards that any vendor can, and every vendor should, implement.

Score: 0

By Grazer

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 1:39 PM

"The only hope for real choices reappearing in the marketplace is interoperability based on free and open standards that any vendor can, and every vendor should, implement."

If every company is forced to implement the same standards, and can't have proprietary innovations, what kind of choice will that really be?

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 2:54 PM

Nothing about an open standard prevents innovation or proprietary features.

That's like saying English limits the subjects you can write about.

Score: 0

By Grazer

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 3:20 PM

You think English doesn't limit what you can write about? Some languages have words for concepts that are almost impossible to express in English at all, and many have sounds that don't even exist in English. (I think some Eskimo language has 3 A's.)

I would agree that nothing about an open standard prevents innovation or proprietary features; but a forced open standard has a great potential to do exactly that. If some group or organization is going to force me into supporting some standard, I may not ever have the time to create a much better proprietary version...and even if I do, what is to keep someone from saying I am being anti-competitive by doing so and then trying to force me to expose the fruits of my labors for the public use.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 4:42 PM

No one has ever been "forced" to use a standard. But customers will require open standards to protect their investments.

It's a simple customer vs vendor problem. Open standards benefit customers and allow new vendors to enter the marketplace. Closed formats lock-up customer's data and create barriers to competition.

There is always room for better quality software and new innovations. Portable open standard data formats make it just that much easier to bring those new features to customers who can use them.

Score: 0

By Grazer

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:36 PM

PC_Tool responded to most of it as I would've so I'll just add that, in some ways, forcing MS to release internal documentation to help its competition could be viewed in some ways as accepting the "MS way" as the "standard" way and then forcing them to make it open. While I realise this does not necessarily fit the "official" definition of "open" in the sense we are talking, it nevertheless is not too far from it.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 4:58 PM

But customers will require open standards to protect their investments.


If this is the case, then it will happen *without* the need for government intervention. It's how the market works.

Problem is, the requirement, as you describe it, doesn't seem to actually *be* a requirement. :)

There is always room for better quality software and new innovations.

Of course. Nothing is perfect. The market will continue to serve the mearketplace demand for better and better.

Portable open standard data formats make it just that much easier to bring those new features to customers who can use them.

...as opposed to building on an existing base? Debatable. Building on the success of existing products, adding functionality, and improving the user-experience can be done arguably easier on existing products, not starting from scratch with untested and unproven formats/standards.

Score: 0

By robmanic44

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 11:30 PM

Do you suppose all those lobbyist in Washington are there to protect the "freemarket economy". They want a larger cut of the pie. Do you really believe that Rockefeller, Carnagie, and Morgan were freemarketers. Yeah, if they owned the market. Read a little history. Start back at the beginning of the industrial revolution. Then tell me when this freemarket economy existed. It's a myth.

You operate under the concept that our economy obeys the freemarket principle and you go out of business. Bought out or absorbed by some company that understands that you have to be the last man standing or you're nothing. Examples of this are all around you. How many grocery store chains which were once considered giant corporations are now the property of Walmart. You dominate your industry to the point that no one questions that you determine where your industry is moving. Sound a bit like Google, Microsoft, AT&T. There's no room for losers in this game.

Score: 0

By Grazer

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 12:38 PM

"How many grocery store chains which were once considered giant corporations are now the property of Walmart. You dominate your industry to the point that no one questions that you determine where your industry is moving. Sound a bit like Google, Microsoft, AT&T. There's no room for losers in this game."

Well, in any competition, there must be a winner. I think a free market to some degree lends itself to developing monopolies. The company best supplying its customers with what they want is bound to grow, eventually pushing out its competitors. The problem is that eventually true monopolies must be broken up before the stifle innovation too much, but not too soon as it will deter the competition that motivates innovation in the first place. Why compete if there is nothing to win?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 10:14 AM

*laughs*

You are mistaking success with the failure of the market. You take a few examples of folks who tried to twist the market, and apply it to everyone.

Of *course* there will be successful companies. Of course a few will try to twist the market.

What, because 3 people attempted to crush the market, it's a failure? Wow. Have you ever bought a PC? I'd love to know who you bought it from, because I can't find a single company that has a 0% failure rate.

You overstate the minority of failures, completely ignore the successes, and based on that completely biased presentation draw the conclusion that the entire system is a failure.

You should be in politics.

Score: 0

By khetos

edited Sep 25, 2007 - 12:41 PM

one major problem, whos going to foot the bills of the companies that invent this free format?, who pays? tax payers? or ? and then the only difference is the interface? or?

Score: 0

By CT2001

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 10:31 AM

The EU didn't invent Windows, so they are trying to tear it apart and tear it down. Jealousy is such a petty thing.

Score: 0

By ogman

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 10:02 AM

Dueling think tanks?

Academics With Artillery.

Score: 0

By GS5

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 9:27 AM

That's just ridicules, 97% of the people out there couldn't install a OS to save their lives. They make sound like there's a whole OS market out there to choose from. We're talking Windows or Linux for PC's. And only 2% of users out there use Linux or is intelligent enough to use it;-)

What's next? No OSX on Macs?
Or maybe buying a nice cup of hot water at Starbucks and going somewhere else to buy the coffee.

Score: 0

By KSzostek

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 8:58 AM

This would affect the Mac as well.

Score: 0

By

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 8:30 AM

This is crap, Microsoft is at fault for abusing their position as the dominant OS manufacture, not for being the dominant OS manufacture. Forcing PC's to be sold without an OS, doesn't mean choice is going to spring up. It just means confusion for the users, headaches for the shops and hardware manufactures.

What the EU should do is make sure that IE and WMP, Outlook etc can be completely replaced by third party apps. So firefox should completely intergrate into Windows (which is doesn't at the momemnt in Vista).
The other thing the EU should do is actual help proper standards be enforced, so that MS can't do their embrace, extend and extigush thing. But that would mean the EU actually doing work...
They should also crack down on hardware manufactures that only support windows...in fact that would do more to erode Windows dominance, as it would *nix would be viable on whatever hardware you have.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 12:17 PM

ah, this is sooo true, i have linux, ubuntu, and i have windows, and i know there is hardly any support anywhere for linux, hence why i dont use it much, hardly any software, and no support from any companies, sept linux communities, but no average user knows how to get support form them.. they need a phone number

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 7:13 AM

ok i just have to say this, windows XP was around 350 for professonal when it first came out.. that gave you 5 years of an OS, with updates and the works.. one fee..

Mac on the other hand, is around 150 or so for OS X, and around the same for each expansion, so OS X.1 = 150, OS X.2 = 150.. if you went with all of them, i know they are optional, but they are upgrades to the current OS, wich microsoft releases for FREE(after purchase of Original OS), i know each has good or bad, but come on, windows is not as expancive if you do the math.

Score: 0

By foxfyre

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 1:31 PM

Just a small point of clarification.

Windows updates fix bugs and broken code, and precious little else (except more broken legacy apps!!!). They do not offer additional functionality, unless you consider closing security holes and retaining control of your machine as being functional...

Mac updates offer additional functionality.

...Not quite the same. But they are both called 'updates'.

Score: 0

By khetos

edited Sep 25, 2007 - 2:17 PM

windows also patches, yes, but also provides functionality, in SPs, like look atthe security center, and the direct x 10 patches.. these are all functionality... i know microsoft has micro holes but they add functionality too...

and why does mac osX 5 updates woth functionality.? likewhat do they include that somone needs to pay another 100 or so, for these functions? when you can patch windows to get the same functions?

Score: 0

By foxfyre

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 8:22 PM

What?

Complete nonsense!

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 7:21 AM

how many mac users need the extra functionality of the newer versions of MAC OS? how many need them, or how many want them? or how many buy them just because they think they have to have them for the pc to be up to date?

to me your stating mac os updates are just adding functionality? well why do they cost so much then? or why do soo many people buy them?

linux updates and features, FREE, windows updates and features FREE, mac updates and features PAY.

Score: 0

By huerix

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 6:31 AM

This is pure BS. The market system works. Windows is the best OS, this is why it has so much market share. Dell is selling Linux machines. There is nothing quite like Windows. OSX is getting better and better too and with Leopard will continue to grab market share. LEt the companies freely innovate without these absurd laws!!!!! Is this an homage to the Axis of Evil?

I feel sorry for MSFT and the Euros if this goes thru- FORCED to have no preinstalled OS? The vast majority will still choose windows, only they will be more inclined to pirate it without getting a cheap system copy. And noone wants the N version without media player. The Euros are smoking CRACK; I think Microsoft should turn the tables and revoke all European govt. licenses, then sue any of them that still use their product. Either that or experiment not selling Windows any more in certain countries... the consumers will demand it... enough is enough.

Score: 0

By hansen2

edited Sep 25, 2007 - 3:52 AM

*sigh*
Well, if they put these 500 Million bucks into development of free software, they might actually get real competition!
If that council would have made their homework, they would not keep streaming as WMV, send .doc-files per mail and use Windows themselves, but rather change their internal IT infrastructure to competitive OS and apps.

If not even the government acts against that monopoly, why should the average citizen care? If people *knew* about alternatives, we would have more competition.

It's still good that they won that process though. Small beacon of hope.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 7:18 AM

you sir are right, why spend tons of money, using their software, instead of using it to farm a new OS manufacturer. or do like google and others have done, make a 1 million doller prize, for a commpetitiive edged OS, that can do atleast half the crap windows can, and is just as cross platformed as windows, and as compatable.

show me 1 OS, that is as compatable as windows has been in its life time, and then show me all the software that you can opt into getting on that software that you can with windows.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 7:19 AM

honestly, its like stating, the toyota corolla and honda civic, should recall and change their body, and internal structure, becasue other car companies are not making as much modifications for their cars, and hence not selling their cars to that market of consumers, so were going to force them to change, instead of putting that money into a company to make modifications to other cars..

Score: 0

By DZNetworks

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 12:24 AM

Well looks like its on the outs as far as the EU goes for Microsoft. Oh well. They really dont need them anyway.

Score: 0

By kronix2

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 4:25 AM

The EU is a union of 500 million people, which could rise to 750 million people over the next 20 years.

It's the most lucrative software market because of its size, and the fact that we're tolerant of MS charging us 50% more (exc. VAT) than the US for the same software.

Quite simply, I wouldn't care if MS left the EU. Linux would take its place and then, perhaps, the major games publishers would start releasing Linux versions of their games.

MS leaving the EU would give us the incentive we need to embrace Linux on a massive scale. MS would be doing us a favour.

Score: 0

By Marth

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:18 PM

MS should pull out of Europe (or at least all EU countries), pulling all the Windows licenses with them.

Then they should start suing people who fail to uninstall the software. Individuals, businesses, governments. Sue them all. Then the EU "Competition committee" has to stand behind them, because they are doing it all legally, making money.

Then let's see what happens to the EU.

switch to Linux? lol - don't think so. They will get people in the competition committee that will fix the issue, let ms come back, and get rid of the retards who go to think tanks.

And what would embracing Linux do except piss off a large portion of your population who no longer will be able to play games? All MS would have to do is make some changes and make it impossible for WINE/Cedega to play games due to interface issues, and then linux gaming completely goes away.

Soooo funny.

Score: 0

By xyzcb1

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 8:29 AM

Linux will take over MS? In your dream maybe. Maybe give Linux another 20 years. The system is not user friendly. You really need a MS in CS to run that system.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 7:22 AM

um question for you..

have you ever thought of this?

everyone now that has MS, switches to Linux, and then what, linux charges more then MS becasue some asshat buys the copyrighted material, and sues anyone who continues to use it, and offers less features, and less functionality, and less support for more money.. and less expert chains, more uneducated people, and less software on the market.

think about it.

Score: 0

By Squire72

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 1:14 AM

Except the EU is a market with more than double the buying power of the US... running off that kind of money isn't a good thing for any company, especially not one that relies as heavily on user numbers as Microsoft.

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 10:40 PM

For those that don't know, your local PC shop has been and will continue to sell you a PC without an OS for a reduced price. It's only the big manufacturers (Dell, HP, etc) that struggle to take an OS off their 'production line' PCs. That, and there is kickbacks in bundled software.

Buy local. Our local PC shop knocks $100 off the price of a system without Windows, and has no issue doing it all. Means less work for them, usually, not more. :)

Score: 0

By xyzcb1

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 8:33 AM

This is some false statement. Local PC shop always cost you more. The only reason they still exist is some customers still reluctant to buy over the internet.

They always give you craps too.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 4:09 PM

Mwave is a "local shop" in Cali. You'd be hard-pressed to beat their prices *anywhere*.

They even put newegg to shame quite frequently.

Score: 0

By wreckedchevy

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 11:19 AM

i spent 10 years running a local shop and every machine we put out will run circles around anything you can buy off the shelf and they'll last a lot longer most of our customers keep there machines for 5-7 yrs without any failures so you can kiss my (|) !!

Score: 0

By Marth

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:19 PM

Oh yeah? My shop people still use the PCs we built for them 20 years ago.

Internet statistics are made up 99 out of 100 times, because you don't have any proof.

So kiss my (|)

Score: 0

By phenomnaruto

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 7:06 PM

I hope they make Mac's come without a OS!

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 10:41 PM

Macs aren't monopolising the market though and breaching anti-competition and anti-cartel laws. And I'm not just saying that: MS has been convicted of it in both the US and the EU.

Score: 0

By terminalx

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 8:02 PM

The argument there is because since its mac hardware they are allowed to only sell osx on it.

Score: 0

By sjc001

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 10:06 PM

Until recently Mac OS was the ONLY thing you could run on their computers. ;-)

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 7:25 AM

what if microsoft just buys out a few of the pc chains then, and sells only windows on those machines, like steve jobs,

i mean come on theres other companies doing other creepy things, and such that others dont see...

what do you think, everyone else is perfect?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 4:08 PM

The problem is that MS would then be sued down the drain by the likes of Dell, HP, et al.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 7:23 AM

your probibly right, that no compitions would like that, and i dont know if i would buy one, but thats right, i also dont buy macs, i think its very close minded, to sell a box and OS, that nothing else could run on, and is not like linux or windows to make software for.(or was in the past).

Score: 0

By sjc001

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 6:20 PM

It was what actually made M$ in the first place. Gates wrote a contract that manufacturers, who used Windows, had to pay a royalty on each PC they made whether it included a copy of Windows or not. So, of course they included a copy of it. It definitely isn't because Windows is the best OS there is because it isn't.

Score: 0

By terminalx

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 8:01 PM

It was at the time and easiest to manage. Linux and Mac didn't have the usability that Windows had, now things are changed, but trying to convince everyone to move off Windows and start fresh. Not an easy sell, Vista is helping that but after sp1 that could change, we'll see.

Score: 0

By sjc001

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 10:09 PM

Windows was, and is, a copy of Mac OS which was a copy of Xerox's GUI. I remember Windows 3.0. It wasn't all that much. OS Warp was better.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 9:15 PM

LMAO! Yeah Windows 3.0 was real nice. Windows 95 was crap. Windows ME....ROFLMAO!!!!!!

M$ did not get anything even half way decent until Win 2k and even that was crap next to the Mac. Windows XP is by far the best they have ever had.

Score: 0

By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 8:58 AM

uh, dude, thats like saying linux is crap, just because the earily stages of the os was lacking, does not mean it was crap back then, it served a purpose at its time, and worked mainly for what it was designed to do..

its called evolution, its like saying thanks god, those damn amebas from 4500 years ago were crap! good work, you suck god, and should no longer be allowed to make beings.

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By Tenoq

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 10:38 PM

And Vista looks like the new 'ME'. At least they'll service pack this one though - and perhaps fix the numerous and vast problems still plaguing the OS.

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By sjc001

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:43 AM

I never had as much trouble with Win ME as I have had with Vista. Not even close.

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By Marth

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 5:20 PM

and I've never had any problems with Vista.

Funny how that works.

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By khetos

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 7:24 AM

the only problems with vista i find, is that well, most people who have pcs, vista wont run right with all the interface tweaks.

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By billweh

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 3:57 PM

And when all of the users decide that the only way they are going to be able to run their business is by purchasing Windows - what exactly will be different?

I've still to hear of one business that decided to swap their entire desktop set to Linux. There have been a few that decided to switch to MAC - but then why isn't Apple being forced to not sell their OS with their machines? Doesn't exactly seem fair to me.

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By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 9:25 AM

what the difference is is instead of the end user paying an extra 50-80 dollers with their pc, they will have to spend instead 300 or so, wich makes microsoft even more money. directly from users.

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By imafurby

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 4:47 PM

Is it possible to run anything other than Mac os on a Mac? I'd be interested to know.

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By mrow

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 9:09 PM

Yes, since all Macs are now x86 based, they can run Windows, linux, etc. However, since all Macs are now just commodity hardware inside, why would you buy one just to install Windows or linux on it, outside of maybe the nicely designed cases? Mac OS is a large part of makes Macs worth the purchase. That is why I'm getting a Mac for my next computer, the nice case and the ability to install Windows just in case is simply a bonus.

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By swattz101

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 11:41 AM

I would just like to "legally" run it the other way around, ie: run OSx:x on a windows machine, or under virtual. I have heard that is has been done, but not stable.

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 4:06 PM

Not stable, questionably legal, and certainly not intended by the developer. We'd all like to see more *quality* competition in the PC-OS field.

I've been waiting patiently for ages for someone to come out with a decent OS/Suite/API for the Unix/Solaris/BSD oses, but I ain't holding my breath.

The main problem with Linux is the license. If you develop a suite/Desktop/api for it, you can't easily protect the IP that went into it and thus, none of the major players are even considering it. It's also why I like the idea of a "google" (or other company) cross-platform desktop replacement to make the choice of OS virtually meaningless.

Pipe dreams, I am sure.

Linux folks, feel free to flame away. :)

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By khetos

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 7:26 AM

i herd i think it is AIX - it is a very nice Linux, or ubuntu, but i have only just actually installed ubuntu on my pc, i have yet to boot into it :)

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 10:04 AM

i have yet to boot into it

Do. It's a good learning experience if nothing else.

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By imafurby

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 11:27 AM

I thought that might be the 'case', so to speak. Cool.

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By pafinator11

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 4:54 PM

Yes, all new macs are X86.

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By lvthunder

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 3:49 PM

So they want to make it where the individual has to buy Windows. I'd rather it come from the PC manufacture because he would get a better price from Microsoft by buying millions whereas I would only be buying one.

Then they also want 10 different operating systems that run the same software. Like that is ever going to happen. Look how much trouble it is with web standards. Just try to get your page to look the same in IE, Safari, Opera, and Firefox.

I'm so glad I'm an American.

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By khetos

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 7:28 AM

yes, i hate that, i create a page to look beautiful, in FF, IE, and netscape, and looks like crap in safari, and not only that, it does not function properly internally..

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By Paul Skinner

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 3:59 PM

"So they want to make it where the individual has to buy Windows. I'd rather it come from the PC manufacture because he would get a better price from Microsoft by buying millions whereas I would only be buying one."

I think that would still happen, it's just that you need to select yourself that you want Windows to come with your PC on the Dell site (for example).

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By PC_Tool

edited Sep 24, 2007 - 8:07 PM

Again, I'd be fine with that, but forcing, for example, Dell to do this, you're not hurting MS, you're hurting Dell.

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By khetos

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 8:52 AM

i agree, this actually could make microsoft more money, becasue instead of the average windows user buying the pc bundled from dell, they need to spend an additional fee directly to MS for the licenace...

and it hurts manufactures because these average new pc users, may find it very discurraging to buy a new pc, that lacks an os, and therefore not get one, or buy one, not know how to do anything with it, and return it for their money back.

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By sjc001

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 10:11 PM

You do know that Dell is starting to put Ubuntu on some of their systems now and they're not being forced to either?

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 12:05 PM

*gasp*

Really?

ZOMG!

Yes, of course I know that. You totally miss the point...again.

Now put on your thinking cap and try again...

It's not a problem with offering alternatives. I have *no* problem with that whatsoever. It is being *forced* (by the government) to offer them that I have an issue with.

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By Paul Skinner

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 3:17 PM

"Force manufacturers by law to sell PCs without operating systems pre-installed or bundled."

YES!

This is what I have wanted for bloody ages.
Ok, it's useless for the average person, but it's good for me!

AND it'll create a job for I.T. people: installing Windows on PCs for idiots!

This can only be good for people wanting part time I.T. work.

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 8:06 PM

While I would not mind The big 3 selling OSless systems as an option, I do not think it should ever be forced.

I could only see that hurting the retailers. People will still be asking the IT guys to install Windows, and they'd be pissed off at whoever made them sell it without the OS.

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By swattz101

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 11:52 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing them forced to sell OSless pc's alongside with PC's with a base OS on them. Just not OSless only. Give the buyer an option. Like someone mentioned earlier, you can go to your local shop and get a barebones PC, but not from the lead online shops. Then again, most of us here would never buy from one of the big ones as we would rather build our own.

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 12:02 PM

The problem with that is you have a government entity forcing a business to offer a certain product a certain way.

Now... this isn't a horrible thing in *certain* circumstances. When the product must conform to certain power requirements, hazard requirements, or could be harmful in certain configurations.

This is not the case.

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By swattz101

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 2:31 PM

I see your point. A good example, my dad is against Helmet laws for motorcycles. He think you are stupid if you don't wear one, but would rather not have Uncle Sam (or the European equivalent) sticking his nose into it, telling him he has to wear one.

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 4:01 PM

My thoughts exactly. Your dad is dead on. :)

They may be idiots, but it's their right to be, and their lives they are taking into their hands. It has no effect on anyone else (other than their close family/friends when the gray matter meets the pavement)...

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By khetos

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 7:40 AM

well then what about seatbelt laws? or cellphone laws? .. i mean yes, i think the laws are very stupid, but there are some that arnt well, how do i save, have common sence, and i think the laws are there to protect them? or atleast thats how i have brought myself to look at it.

i mean my phone rings in my pocket when im driving, i get my GF to get it, and answer it, if its for me and important, i have her put it on speaker phone.. - common cence, but somone else may drive into about 12 people before they get the phone out of their pocket...

think of it like, warning labels too, do not iron while wearing, states a warning label on a shirt.. why? becasue some dumass did it and sued the company, stating it told me that i needed to iron it, but not how, and now i hurt from burns.

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By PC_Tool

posted Sep 26, 2007 - 10:00 AM

*laughs*

You assume too much.

well then what about seatbelt laws?

I'll wear a seatbelt because I believe it makes me safer. I do not think the government should be mandating it. Same with helmets. Not wearing them won't present a danger to anyone but the idiot not wearing them, eh?

or cellphone laws?

Prove the majority of cell-phone users present a clear and present danger to other drivers on the road, and I'm all for it. Sure, you can point out an idiot or two, but that is *far* from the majority of users. Sorry.

Common sense is wonderful, and I firmly believe people should try it sometime. But the government is not (or should not be) in the business of determining what is and what is not common sense. They are generally very lacking in that department themselves.

but somone else may drive into about 12 people before they get the phone out of their pocket

...and you might get hit by lightning, get hit by a bus on the crosswalk, or slam your Beamer into a fuel truck. Tragedies to be sure, but the rights of the many should never be seen as less important than the safety (or security) of one.

think of it like, warning labels too, do not iron while wearing, states a warning label on a shirt.. why? becasue some dumass did it and sued the company, stating it told me that i needed to iron it, but not how, and now i hurt from burns

Darwin should take care of that quite nicely. Remove the labels, throw the lawsuits out. The problem will eventually take care of itself. :) It is not the companies responsibility to train you on how to iron, blow dry, or bathe. If you fail at those... Good riddance.

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By terminalx

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 3:25 PM

For business this would work, for the average consumer, not so much.

I see this never happening on the consumer level as it will destroy bundled software and anyone who wants to keep making money will never agree to this.

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By terminalx

posted Sep 24, 2007 - 2:59 PM

Well, you can buy barebones pcs with no OS, they just don't say Dell, HP, Gateway on them.

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By khetos

edited Sep 25, 2007 - 8:54 AM

wich the average pc user, not expert or gamer, the average windows user, would hate, having to pay somone more moeny to do this?

its like buying a car without a dash.. would you want to buy a car and then buy your dash? and pay somone to isntall it? uh, no thanks, but if u are a gamer, or a expert etc, and you want to change that os, then you can, you can install another dash, but it will take work.. if your interested.

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By swattz101

posted Sep 25, 2007 - 11:48 AM

I don't know if I would go as far as saying without a dash, but maybe like a barebones car with no radio, ac/heater whatnot. Yeah, they exist, but try going to your local large conglomerate dealership (GM, Ford, Dodge) any by someth