Microsoft should have make it an option if the user want to IE when they are installing the OS, but the European commision is still an ass. They ain't no better than the MS, they force themself onto other during their colonial heydays. MS should llayoff some of the europeans to pay for the fine if it does happen.

Targetting just one company ain't fair, if they are really interested in fairness, they will target all other company such as apple which bundle their own software such as safari on their OS!

Yeah...good luck collecting on that. I guess they could sick the UN on us...sends shivers down my spine just thinking about it. Twits.

Like I always say, screw the EC. :)

How could IE possibly have higher security? Anything that is tied to the operating system opens the OS up to additional attack and vice versa. NoScript and AdBlock make an excellent combo and NoScript blocks attacks that IE doesn't. What protection does IE have against XSS attacks (for starters)?

What? DB Ben!
You use IE exclusively or your online transactions, we'll I'll be turkey slapped. I'd like to see your security set up.
Me thinks you are having us on.

I have read some ignorant statements here, and this ranks right up there with them!

Indeed, as mentioned below/above. beside (or wherever the new utterly dysfunctional BN format puts it) , FF with NoScript and AdBlock run rings around IE.

Has Microsoft actually paid *any* of the previous fines? I could have sworn I heard somewhere that MSFT basically just laughed at them and hasn't paid a dime...

Tool, this is a strawman argument in an attempt to regulate trade.

Funny how they evidently aren't capable of choosing and using any of the myriad alternative environments that meet their oh so elevated tastes and standards.

But this entire issue has more to do with the victim mentality then it does anything to do with individuals assuming responsibility and choosing the environment that suits their needs best. And if that's not Windows, then they are free to use something that better suits those needs and desires. A pretty tough concept for some to understand.

And This is starting to bother me defending MS's right to design its products as they see fit. But then, the EU is not a free market.
Funny... you are not calling me a MS fanboy?????? Your silence is deafening. ;-))))))))

"you are not calling me a MS fanboy?????? Your silence is deafening. ;-)"

Bah... You have a ways to go yet before you can achieve such lofty goals. ;)

No, they haven't.
However, their contributions to NGO's (damned commie orgs'), gives them the opportunity to not only keep the ogres' away, but also obtain tax relief for those same contributions.
See! There is little difference it's all about the grease, and to whom you apply it.
And, contrary to the fart's whimsical notions, there ain't no such animal as a free market

So, applying the complaint equally to all, are they going to do the same to Apple because they bundle Safari or Redhat/Ubuntu/Suse et al because they bundle Firefox?

In fact, going back to Linux, Nautilus and Konqueror (which are also web browsers) are tied into Gnome and KDE far more than IE is into Windows. Try to uninstall Nautilus or Konqueror and you're told by the package manager that Gnome/KDE desktop must be uninstalled as well. It has already been proven with Win9x that you can uninstall IE and Windows still works.

MS should disentagle IE from Windows, that's all !
IE should be a program, an applications, not an entangled part of the OS.
At installation time, the user could then be asked if he/she wants to install the IE application or not.

Thus :
- IE "bundled" with Windows is OK.
- IE entangled into Windows is not OK.
Everybody happy : the user, competition, EU, etc...

Fine, and so should LookOut, and every other aspect of the OS. And now you can apply this same standard to every other OS on the market. Get going, you have a lot of rounds to make.

And then you can whine about different components not integrating with others. Oh...you mean that might be affected as well? But...but...but...

Its amazing that the EU is too technologically challenged to simply use IE to access and download any of the myriad alternatives available.

EU = the mentally handicapped parking spot of the world

Foxfyre, you're completely missing the point.

It's not about the fact that there are or there are not alternative means, it about loading the dice to deny open competition.

Compared to a more free-for-all system I'll take the EU actively attempting to protect & promote the consumer's interests any day of the week.

Far better that than really stupid recent disasters we've seen in the less regulated financing & banking sectors, huh?

LOL!

The EU is simply using this as a tacit regulation of trade.

And as far as the financial problems, you are an ignorant twit!

"The underlying reason for Europe’s vulnerability is rooted not in the U.S. subprime — that is only the proximate trigger — but instead in the importance of banks to the entire European economy. In the United States, the crisis might be contained within the financial and housing sectors alone, but in Europe, the close connections between banks and industry almost assure a broad and deep spread of the contagion. Unlike the United States, where the government has spent more than a century battling to break the links among government, industry and banks, this battle is only rarely joined in Europe. If anything, such links — one could even say collusion — between banks and businesses were encouraged from the very beginning of modern European capitalism.

Since the 19th century, European financing and investing has been coordinated between banks and industry, and encouraged by the government, because industrialization was a modernizing project led by the state that did not spring up spontaneously as it did in the United States. Bank executives often sat on the boards of the most important industries, and industrial executives also sat on the boards of the most important banks, making sure that capital was readily available for steady growth. This allowed long-term investment into capital-intense industries (such as automobiles and industrial machinery) without the fear of quick investor flight should a single quarterly report come back negative.

The most famous example of this type of cozy link are the ties between Siemens AG and Deutsche Bank, a relationship which has existed for more than 100 years. An overlapping and intermingling of interests results from this type of arrangement, insulating the system from many minor shocks like strikes or changes in government, but making the system less flexible in the face of major shocks like serious recessions or credit crises. Therefore, in times of a global shortage of capital, European corporations are left with few financing alternatives they are comfortable with. (In contrast, while banks are an important source of financing in the United States, corporations there depend much more on the stock market for investment. This forces American firms to compete ruthlessly for capital and constantly seek greater and greater efficiencies.)"

Yup, they sure are swooft! But ignorance is always bliss, as you so eloquently illustrate.

Yup, the EU simply cares so much about YOU! LMAO!

Oh, and don't forget who was the driving force in opening up the sub-prime lending market to include all of those who ordinarily could not qualify for loans! I mean, what part of "those who ordinarily could not qualify for loans" escapes your understanding?

Sub-prime lending was pushed heavily by both parties. A lack of loans to minorities was decried as racism and there were several major pushes to loosen minority lending standards. Combatting true racism was good....loosening standards for people with the right skin color was taking things too far.

This is a free country, take responsibility for your actions. If you got a mortgage you couldn't afford...some of the fault is yours. How many mortgages were truly *bad* and not just walked away from when payments still could have been made or that other spending habits doomed the possibility of making the mortgage payment.

Banks got greedy and so did investors. They got burned as bad as anyone. But that is what you get with unsecured loans. What part of "unsecured" do you not understand?

I get tired of people making this into a political issue and also trying to lay the blame at the feet of one party or another. Also, if you want rights to do what you want but not face consequences...that's not how things work.

FartFox,
Are you the original authour of this little gem?
"That guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community', which we defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality …'
"'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."'

Am I the author? Sure, of all of the parts that were not QUOTED!!!!!Dumbf-x

Google the source, genius. Sorry the concept is so kompleekated for someone as swooft as you. But then, you are so mentally bankrupt that you reduce all of the world's problem to one source. So, using Google may be just a bit too difficult for you...

Sorry if your "the US is the cause of all of our EU problems" doesn't quite holdup.

Foxfyre

I don't know what politico-economic propaganda BS you read (though from the looks of it it's pretty laughable stuff).

The fact is that the continental EU states - whilst undeniably facing problems - do not face anything like the same level of "financial meltdown" as their Anglo-US cousins.

It was the 'liberal economic market' Anglo-US financial 'model' that created and built up this catastrophic & totally insane mess; almost entirely thanks to their lunatic 'derivatives market' which is the real creator of this horrifying looming economic slump.

Whoever gave you the impression that this disaster was all about 'sub-prime' (other than the ex-champions of 'practically no regulation free markets' now trying to cover their tracks......as they try to escape all responsibility along with their grotesquely disproportionate & ill-gotten gains)?

Sub-prime was merely the catalyst.
Had this been merely confined to even the entire sub-prime mortgage market going t!ts-up it would have left a nasty - but perfectly manageable, eventually - headache running into the few hundred billion $.
A mere fraction of the total annual productive value of the US economy.

Unfortunately for the tellers of that pathetic fairytale the sub-prime market is utterly dwarfed by the real problem. The 'derivatives market' which has racked up losses in the several hundred trillion $.

Wake up.

I think there is more innovation because of IE's pre-installed position.

If I want to entice you to use my browser, I have to offer something different, something 'better'.

Alright.....who the hell is Steve Jobs sleeping with over there to have Apple be seemingly immune from this sort of thing? For YEARS Apple computers have been sold tied to the Mac OS and proprietary hardware. Even now that things are being mixed up a bit, OSX is shipped with Apple software, predominantly. OSX is even somewhat locked to Apple hardware still, in spite of attempts to get them on PCs.
How do they get away with it when MS is penalized for everything?

I know, off topic but I need to understand.

Back on topic....in some way I agree, but I can't help but feel like there's hypocrisy in these various companies. I mean, what vendor wouldn't bundle their own software with their OS? MS is getting bombarded because it's big and wealthy. No one can tell me that it's a huge step to go online, download firefox, opera, chrome (or the browser of their choice) and switch that to the default. It's not rocket science.
I can't think of what MS could possibly do to help this. Ship the OS without a browser and it's 'crippled' in this day and age. But how do you pick what to ship it with? I can't imagine that they can put all the other choices on there - it wouldn't be practical.
MS should just sell 'EC' specific versions of the OS. Rip out WMP and IE and let them figure it out.

"I can't imagine that they can put all the other choices on there - it wouldn't be practical."

And should they actually bundle additional browsers, can you imagine the accusations of intentional inclusion of older "outdated" versions of competitors' browsers? I can just see it, MS fined for not having new discs mastered and printed every time a competitor's browser has a "significant" revision.

Certainly - ir's absolutely normal that MS should bundle explorer with their OS. But they have also gone to considerable effort to make it difficult to use the system without it - and that is what I believe is what grates with a lot of people.

As for the MAC OS - if you sign up for products conceived by a by a brilliant but tyrannical aesthete what do you expect?

I understand that. I suppose it's a reasonable request. But I still don't understand how the argument that bundling IE is stifling competition works in there. I mean, lets play out a scenario.

I install Windows 7 Ultimate. I use IE to download FF. I make FF the default, and really, I never see IE again. I realize that IE components may be used for other parts of the system, but how exactly is that forcing me to use IE in a way that is unfair to FF/Chrome/Opera? I'm going to assume that WMP uses IE to look up and display music info/etc....is that really so horrible? So MS is to make everything in their OS independent of IE for competition sake? It doesn't make sense to me. I understand the 'IDEA' and the ethics behind it, but I don't think it's practical. MS makes and sells an OS - they should bundle whatever they want with it. If the user wants something else, they're free to replace these said components. Now, it would be completely different if the OS locked out installing other browsers/music players, but this is not the case.

Back on the Apple thing....seriously. With 13-15% market share, how are they still able to fly below the radar? That's either incredible luck or demon magic. I'm telling you...Steve sold his soul right before the Ipod and is on a gravy train to hell.

Just what I want. Software designed by a bunch of European judges instead of smart software engineers.

Microsoft should ship a version of Windows 7 in Europe that has no web browser at all. That way we will get rid of this and it will be like it was in the Windows 3.1 days where your ISP had to ship you a disk.

Absolutely! And then listen to them freak as they lack the means to easily access and download alternatives.

I can just see the masses trying to figure out how to independently try to source and ftp alternative browsers... LOL!

MS's strategy should be to eliminate whatever functionality the EU complains about.

The irony is the EU corporations there will eat the politicians alive when they have access only to crippled packages with limited functionality - but OH SO MUCH freedom.

Wake up.

The EU (Judges or otherwise) is not trying to devise software(s).

The point has already been spelt out clearly, Microsoft have entangled their OS with IE so heavily that it diminishes open competition (which is pretty ironic, considering all the predictable cracks about politicians state interference and all the rest).

No-one is saying Microsoft cannot ship their OS with IE.

The point is that they ought not be so entangled that it makes use of a competing IE software problematic and less functional.

You have to be dreaming if you think the big corps do not or will not naturally tend towards monolpoly (sometimes even with - on the surface - what looks like fair reasoning).

"The point has already been spelt out clearly, Microsoft have entangled their OS with IE so heavily that it diminishes open competition"

What utter rubbish. You are free to install whatever browser you want. Why aren't you complaining about Nautilus or Konqueror? They're tied into Gnome and KDE even worse. Try and uninstall Nautilus or Konqueror and the package manager tells you you have to uninstall Gnome/KDE desktop too.

Poor HocusPocus. Nonsense.
Computershack is right. But poor hocus poscus has so confused himself with his slight of hand and selfinflicted victimhood that he simply can't figure out how to solve a problem of his own making.

Nothing stops you from using Forefox or any other browser and simply not using IE except for internal file searches. (...well, aside from your own stupidity - which in the EU is evidently substantial.)

If I were you, I would worry more about LookOut.

And here's an even better suggestion.

If you don't like how Windows is designed (regardless of what part offends your whiny sensibilities), DON'T USE IT! Assume a modicum of responsibility for your actions, you dimwit victim! There are plenty of other alternative OSes that better serve your stated goals.

What's wrong? Can't figure out how to download or use them?

Or do you expect MS to solve THAT for you too??? Poor whiny victims who sit on their @sses and expect everyone else to solve their problems.

Next you will be demanding MS offer Office for Linux and modified versions (of course, in the forms YOU approve of) of all of their products for all of the competing platforms. And then install them for you. LMAO!

Soooooooo...where is Tool NOW when I find myself actually defending MS's options in a freemarket? LOL!!!

I think they *should* include a competing browser.

Lynx, anyone? ;)

lol there's the answer, include lynx!

Poor confused Foxfyre.

The whiney jerk sobbing for the whambulence is in fact you.

Suck it up.

If you want to play in the over 500 million strong market you will play by our rules.

I know that's news to the US and a departure from what you're used to but I guess reality can bite a little.

I hope when google comes out with their own OS that microsoft ask for Internet Explorer to be included in it. Doesn't all this sounds ridiculous? I think the EC wants another free handout from microsoft like they did last time.

True dingomutt.
The EC is mostly motivated for more money. The anti-American sentiment in Europe (and most of the rest of the world) simply makes it very easy to do this over and over again.
The notion of either not having any web browser on Windows 7 European Edition is attractive but likely to upset legitimate EU customers. An interesting idea is to officially sell all versions of Windows 7 via e-commerce through servers located in the United States and thus ignore the EU is also appealing. Due to the many assets Microsoft has tied up in Europe, it would have to divest quite a bit to simply tell the EU to go to Hell (or some more diplomatic equivalent).

The EU is mandated and required to do it's best to protect and promote the interests of it's citizens.
It believes (as supposedly does most of the rest of the 'free' world) that more open markets deliver a better deal for it's people.

The unforutnate truth is that xenophobia is being wheeled in because the basic premise is undeniable; Microsoft have a tendancy to favour their own product line within their own products.

It's not surprising and it's even understandable but nevertheless it's unacceptable in the EU.

I think you'll find Microsoft either change, reach a compromised agreement or pay up.

If anyone is going to be 'going to hell' it'll those who are silly enough to imagine that Microsoft are about to walk from the world's largest single unified market of well over 510 million people
(EU member states & EU associate members).

What's even more inconceivable is that the corporate/enterprise market will walk away from MS! Funny, the enterprise market is not whining about this.

Instead the EU is whining as they are a solution looking for a problem - and a victim - all in the name of trade regulation.

Otherwise, why doesn't the EU simply move to open source or another OS they find more appealing? Or are they incapable of doing that on their own without help? Hmmmmmmmmmm????

Such a whiny @ssed victim mentality. Oh we hate MS Windows SO MUCH, and its SO UNFAIR, but we can't live without our MS Windows. But we don't like their corporate colors including blue, we want it in fuschia...Waaaaaaa.

Don't like it or find it acceptable. Fine. Use something else. DUH!

Give us a break. The EU has more than its hands full trying to resolve the cause of its OWN financial crisis! But it sure is convenient to distract everyone as the EU points and yells "They went that way" in the face of actually addressing their own problems.

The whiner here Foxfyre is you.
Blubbing your soul out that anyone dared call a huge US corp on anti-competitive practices.
Boo hoo hoo.

As per you alternate between the usual confused ramblings about the EU.

On the one hand you just can't think outside the 'US box' and want to imagine it's relationships with the sovereign member nation states as something analogous to the US federal Gov - but more 'dictatorial & horrifying command economy 'socialist' or 'liberal'
(or whatever ludicrously inappropriate and laughably misapplied term is current flavour of the month).
Then you flip to dreams of a weak collective unable to agree much of substance at all.
Both laughably wrong.

In fact if you want open source you ought to look to the member states, many - including the UK - are now actively promoting open source.

Better luck next time.

"Compare this to the mobile market, where Microsoft cannot tie Internet Explorer to a dominant operating system,"

...yeah it does.

Windows may be running on the biggest share of smartphone platforms but it's not truly "dominant". From what I've read Apple sells almost as many iPhones as all the Windows smartphones combined. Then there's the fact that Windows is only on smartphones..that means no IE on all those data-capable Symbian handsets and the like. I suspect there are more people using Opera Mini than IE.