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EU Expresses Concern Over Vista

By Nate Mook, BetaNews

March 29, 2006, 10:46 AM

The seemingly never-ending saga between Microsoft and the European Union took another turn on Wednesday as the EU Commission's antitrust division warned the software company not to return to its old ways with Windows Vista. The body is concerned about Vista's built-in Internet search functions and new document features.

While the Commission has not yet opened up an investigation into Windows Vista, it has asked Microsoft to respond to its concerns. If the EU finds evidence of anti-competitive behavior, a new case against the Redmond company could be made.

Still, the Commission is giving Microsoft the benefit of the doubt, spokesperson Jonathan Todd told reporters. "We assume Microsoft has its own interest at heart and it wants to launch another product without having to worry about the Commission instituting various actions under antitrust law because of this product," he said.

In a response, Microsoft assured European regulators it would open the door to third parties in Vista.

"Keeping the industry and regulators informed of our product development plans has been, and will remain, a priority," the company said in a statement. "We have worked hard to include partners and competitors in our planning so they can build products and services that work with Windows Vista."

Microsoft is set to meet the EU Commission in closed-door hearings scheduled for Thursday and Friday, where it will argue that it has fully complied with a March 2004 antitrust ruling against it. The decision ordered Microsoft to sell a version of Windows without its Media Player software, as well as divulge portions of Windows Server protocols.

A December Statement of Objections from the EU threatened Microsoft with fines of 2 million euros per day for not complying with the latter requirement.

If Microsoft is found not in compliance at that point, fines would be applied from December 15, 2005 and the date of the decision. The company could end up paying an additional 100 to 200 million euros in fines on top of the 497 million euros it was ordered to pay initially.

Microsoft's appeal of the original decision will be heard by the European Court of First Instance in April.

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By PC Rat

edited Mar 31, 2006 - 1:53 PM

...

"It terrifies me to think if Jobs were in Gatesy's position here"

...

Actually, he ~now~ is !

The Euro-Commies in France want iPod divested of it's propritoty format.

Gates should pull Windows out
of Western Europe, and Jobs iTunes
out of stinking France.

Let'em eat cake !
...

The Computer Rodent

...

Score: 0

By PC Rat

edited Mar 31, 2006 - 1:54 PM

...

"Communism is fatally flawed. People behave based on incentives - they have since caveman days. Communism only takes root under false promise, and only persists under authoritarianism."

...

~Exactly~ right !

The European anti-Microsoft Taliban wants
Bill Gates to forswear Free Enterprise and
kneel before the altar of Euro-Socialism.
...

The Computer Rodent

...

Score: 0

By davidtb

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 9:18 AM

It's not like MS held a gun to the EU's head and said buy this software.
It terrifies me to think if Jobs were in Gatesy's position here.

Score: 0

By john.new2

edited Mar 31, 2006 - 5:02 AM

Please add me in your google talk

john.new2@gmail.com

Score: 0

By imtoomuch

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 4:36 AM

Wow here's a story that doesn't shock me one bit. The EU's hobby is to hassle Microsoft and get money out of them.

Score: 0

By Frostek

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 5:51 AM

I think we'd prefer they conduct their business in a seemly and lawful manner, respecting what their customers are asking of them in the EU, rather than some cash. We've got plenty, thanks for asking, given we won't be paying off crushing debts for the next century.

If you want MS to have Windows the way it is in the US, then we've got no problem with that at all. This is solely an EU case. What you do with MS in the US is not of interest to us.

Score: 0

By drumcat

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 12:26 PM

If they're so unruly, why isn't the EU all Mac?

Score: 0

By GoodThings2Life

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 9:37 PM

If more companies worked with Microsoft than against them, and if those same companies spent as much money on their own marketing campaigns as they do on lawsuits against others, then there is no doubt that they would be as successful or more-so than Microsoft. Tangible evidence, you ask for? Meh, I don't have any, just my gut instinct as a business man and educator and tech guy.

Score: 0

By spef

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 3:26 AM

Maybe an experiment could clear all of this. Why not install Firefox instead of IE with Vista. I'm curious how many people would bother to download IE.

Score: 0

By Fickleflame

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 12:35 AM

You may be onto something, and you may not. The problem is that Microsoft often makes it hard for companies to fully utilize the Windows operating system. The EU isn't trying to shut Microsoft down, but force them to "work" with other companies in the EU, and give those companies the latitude they need to create software that works, and functions on Windows like a Microsoft application would. Could you imagine how cool it would be if every application you bought worked as well on Windows as a Windows app?

Score: 0

By Silentmaster101

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 11:35 AM

but there is no logical reason that they should have to, if a company decides to make software that will rely on windows and microsoft's hard work you should be at the mercy of whatever microsoft decides to give you. deal with it, when those companies have their own operating system that they have worked hard to make then they can make their programs work well with it and shut up.

Score: 0

By xprizex

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 4:54 PM

This is for Bill Gates, if you reading this here's what you should do. Strip the living daylights out of windows. Just give them the Windows kernel and that's it. Not even a GUI just black console screen with a blinking cursor. And charge them for every addon. Give them that linux experience without the easy of use ;-)

Score: 0

By GoodThings2Life

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 9:37 PM

Heck yeah! Give these whiners something to whine about! :)

Score: 0

By Frostek

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 5:39 AM

They couldn't do that - since they've programmed Windows to be monolithic, not modular.

Looks like you missed the entire point.

Score: 0

By John_Bedin

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 1:31 PM

The UE can't afford to buy Vista our euro is too strong

Score: 0

By wincement

edited Mar 30, 2006 - 6:58 PM

Who's the UE? =p

Score: 0

By John_Bedin

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 11:49 AM

The second coming of the Roman Empire and Microsoft will bow in homage to it's mighty currency.the euro.

Score: 0

By drumcat

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 12:28 PM

Ha! Now that cracked me up. Work on your punctuation, Centurion!

Score: 0

By The Man

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 12:27 PM

I understand the EU and their cause, they look at microsoft as an outsider trying to bring a product into their country and they just want to make sure its something their people can work with, not something thats going to push programs created in europe for windows out the door. just try to remove windows media player completely and replace it with say...winamp. or even better, remove IE completely and replace it with firefox.

Goes for more than just software companies, i'm getting sick of these car company's messing with their stereo setup's, making it impossible to upgrade the deck, with their hidden crappy amp's.(just an example)

Back to the point, i think you should be able to choose weather to install these "extra's" or not when you do the initial install.

Score: 0

By Frostek

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 5:53 AM

All *I* want is an uninstall option for browser, media player programs and some other sections that actually works.

That's not really a lot to ask, given MS charges quite a bit for their OS, which apparently I don't even own once I've bought it. Licensing... pah!

Score: 0

By PC Rat

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 9:58 AM

...

"what these EU communist are trying to do is simply stupid"

...

~That's~ exactly it, isn't it ?

The contention ain't over technology, or "anti-competitive behavior".

It's Communism versus free enterprise.

The EU would prefer a government computer operating system a' la the old Soviet Union.

Statist totalitarianism.
...

The Computer Rodent

...

Score: 0

By John_Bedin

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 11:50 AM

nibble on some communist french cheese you rat

Score: 0

By Fickleflame

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 12:46 AM

Wow, your right!

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 5:17 PM

Wow you may actually have something there.. they are still pissed the quakers moved to the USA!

Score: 0

By Frostek

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 5:46 AM

I'm really beginning to think you lot don't have the faintest clue as to what goes on in the world outside your own countries borders.

And EU as communists goes to show you have no idea what communism is, except your opinion that it must be the opposite of whatever you believe in.

(Communism is the best polictical system by the way, if people weren't selfish. Unfortunately, they all tend towards selfishness so it's sadly unworkable on a large scale.)

Also, re : the Quaker comment. The Quakers moved to America to escape religious persecution. Shame the US has more religious nutballs now than we ever did.

Score: 0

By John_Bedin

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 11:56 AM

I hope you are european like me ;nonetheless you stated the truth . there is no communism in the UE

Score: 0

By drumcat

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 12:32 PM

Again, what is the UE?

Communism is fatally flawed. People behave based on incentives - they have since caveman days. Communism only takes root under false promise, and only persists under authoritarianism.

As for Microsoft, no one is forcing anyone in Europe to not go Mac or Linux. Has MS abused its position before? Yep. But in this case, your unreasonable demands are not consistent with all OS manufacturers.

You can't have it both ways.

Score: 0

By ZInsider

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 9:47 AM

If EU has so many issues with Microsoft. Then why is that we dont have any issues with Microsoft in US. It's difficult to understand the EU problem.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 5:18 PM

You just answered your own question.

MS is an AMERICAN company.. that's their problem..

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 7:55 AM

Everyone jumping all over the I hate the EU bandwagon should probably keep reading the news first.

"He said Kroes' letter to Ballmer came after Microsoft asked regulators to set out any possible antitrust problems with Vista, stressing that it was not the start of any formal probe into the new operating system."

- http://seattletimes.nwso...2002898668_vista30.html

Microsoft ASKED the EU to express any concerns.

Now back to our daily dose of uninformed hate ridden comments by folks with less than 1/2 a clue.

heh

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 5:21 PM

Yeah the same way you ask if there is anything else you can do, after helping them for 3 hours.. its a courtesy, you don't REALLY expect them to have any concerns. Its a way of aquiesing, knowing full well they are still going to complaing given every opportunity.

Its still rediculous. The EU is taking this MS thing too far. Everytime MS does what the EU asks, the EU raises the bar again and again... every time MS gets over one hurdle, the EU finds another hurdle.. they are looking for any excuse to keep MS occupied, because they want to make them jump through hoops.

This isn't a hate EU problem, this is a semantics, the EU needs to get their head out of their ass, and quit being moron's problem.

Score: 0

By fewt

edited Mar 30, 2006 - 5:51 PM

Really there is absolutely no proof that they have complied other than what Microsoft has told you. They also sent letters to AGs from dead people so they have TONS of credibility. The man that was picked out of a list that Microsoft created says they are not complying.

Why this blind love for a company? If RHAT had acted in this manor you would probably be up in arms over it. I know I'd be pretty irritated, just like I am with this whole Microsoft fiasco. They should just comply with the letter of the ruling and be done with it.

Requesting the EU look at Vista is a step in the right direction since they have been found guilty of monopolizing an industry what THREE times now?

oy vey, should have just broken them up all those years ago when it was still an option on the table.

Score: 0

By GoodThings2Life

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 9:32 PM

Actually, fewt, I'd be thrilled to death that another business was capable of generating as much business through marketing as Microsoft does... rather than generating capital through lawsuits... people at this point only sue to get money, not because they have merit.

Score: 0

By spef

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 3:01 AM

This whole thing has nothing to do with the way MS is earning their money!!
This hasn't anything to do with a lawsuit because it's a criminal investigation.

Lawsuits in the EU are, unlike in the US, less likely and judges are reluctant to set unproportional high fines for the most stupid things. That a lot of American companies earn money this way that's a pity but don't go telling that's our interest in this case.

Score: 0

By Jim

edited Mar 30, 2006 - 7:54 AM

Time to through my long time opinion in, its Microsoft's OS, some of it they made themselfs, some of it may have been baught from others, but its still theirs, and they should be able to add in any functionality they want, it shouldn't be illegal for swis army knifes to come with bottle openers.

Someone below posted that windows should include no browser and people should use ftp to gain one. To this I say stop Microsofts monopoly on console-based windows ftp clients! It shouldn't be bundled with windows either.

Seriously though, I can just picture my dad with his glasses hunting and pecking at keys ....one ....key..... slowly... at... a... time... as some manual says or isp tech support guy tells him what to do over the phone. Mistypes one key and starts all over again.

Now it would be very easy to get into what "I" think they should do, but so long as your not forced to use media player, IE, etc, and they're not *preventing* you from using other software, its just customer feedback.

The Law, someplaces or everywhere may not agree with this, I'm just stating my moral opinion. Unless they are decieving, wrongfully taking something from you or directly preventing you from using competitors products I don't see anything wrong with it.
/Rant

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 5:22 PM

that's the way I feel too Jim. It is customer feedback.. but other customerd disagree, so they get angry with MS for giving the majority customers what they want..

If people want to point fingers, they need to start with their neighbors.

Score: 0

By nitramsen1

edited Mar 30, 2006 - 8:13 AM

I’m myself is from the EU (Pleased to say that I am not living in the EU anymore) and what these EU communist are trying to do is simply stupid.

Who would benefit from Windows without a mediaplayer, anti-spyware and published knowledge of the inner workings of Windws? Not the consumers.
I think EU citizens and corporations need to begin asking questions about why EU tries to limit their computer experience, security and who is sponsoring these attacks on Microsoft and everyone living/Operating in the EU. If there was a real alternative (As in the early 1990) to Windows that Microsoft made unfair business practices against I would say do some thing about it, but as we all known today there is no alternative for the masses.
And for me an OS in 2007 should include all the products that comes bundle with Vista and maybe even more. Why does EU want us to take a step back?

I agree with a lot of people who say that the products that are bundled with Windows is limited in features (some products are even bad) and could be done better but this means that there are markets for others to exploit, which should be the only thing that EU cares about. And even if MS Windows was perfect why complain about it. As I see it why don’t IBM, Google or some of the other big corporations make a real alternative to Windows as according to Microsoft it only takes about 50 million lines of code which should be possible to do for about 3-5 billion USD and probably even less if you have no legacy to implement.

I find it some what questionable that all of these anti-thrust cases started up because they claimed that Microsoft was hurting innovation because of their monopoly. Today everything that comes out of the EU trade commission will only stop innovation by killing new good products that puts pressure on old products to renew them self if they want to exists.
What have really changed over the last 10 years in the virus killer/anti-spyware products?
I would say almost nothing and this is because the marked is divided and probably fixed between other mega corporations like Symantec, F-secure, Mcafee and etc.

What about MAC just because they have a product that **cks and now runs on Intel should they not be forced to allow the competition to run on their hardware?
I would say no, if they want to continue to develop nice looking hardware and not being able to sell it because they only allow crappy software to run directly on it so be it. I haven’t heard anything from EU about this, probably because this subject is not in the interest of their sponsors or maybe Apple can not be fined as much as Microsoft and still pay.

Regarding the Media Player:

Since no media player on windows today runs without DirectShow(and the filters) all media players running on Winodws are just GUI’s and I think most people’s needs are covered by the MS Media-Player GUI. More then that if someone out there really makes a GUI that makes a difference they will have a market and be able to beat the MS media player no matter if this is bundle with Windows or not.

I think the answer from Microsoft should be to change its strategy and bundle DirectShow with Media player and simply say no Media Player no DirectShow.
Then anyone developing a Media Player would learn what it means to develop a Media player and properly fail. And within 2 days EU would be suing MS to get MS Media-Player back and the consumers will get what they want.
Of cause Media players in 2006 also offers sync with other devices but is this a threat to anyone, I think that a lot of small companies that want to take up the competition with Apple will see this as a gift. Because they do not need to invest much in sync as they can plug into MS Media player. And for those who wants an IPod install the software which runs even if the media player is installed.
In the end I thing the only ones who will gain from Windows without a media player is REAL,Apple and Google. Do we really need to support these mega corporations at the cost of simplicity for the average user?

As for Microsoft integrating MSN search into the browser, I don’t care as their search engine **cks and I will still be using Google. Maybe for some users this is a problem because they are used to the Google search bar and can not figure out how to write www.google.com but this was a choice Google made not Microsoft. If they had made no search bar people would have had to use the browser directly and anyway Microsoft will still allow other software to integrate into IE.

In the end MS Windows has giving us so much and I for one want to have so much more then what is in Windows including the next version, but all of this anti-thrust **it is not getting me any closer to getting what I want.
To be honest I do not care if MS gets my money or some else as longer as I’m getting closer to what I want. And if it takes a pseudo monopoly to get a streamlined system that integrates with all the other technologies that surrounds me I have no problem with that.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 9:43 AM

Sony, HP, Dell, Lenovo, and the white box retailer around the corner would all like to work towards providing the streamlined multi media computer system of your dreams.

They just need to be free to take the best of the best toss the rest(IE) and deliver the systems their customer really want, without Microsoft telling them what they have to bundle.

If what you really want is 100% Microsoft I am sure you will always be able to find that. But real competition means you could also choose from PC's with other software configurations.

Score: 0

By nitramsen1

edited Mar 30, 2006 - 11:33 AM

I am sorry but Sony has been trying for so many years but never succeeded and they never will because they have lost their innovation and talent.

HP could maybe do it but they will have to gamble their existence on it. And why is it exactly that I should suffer to make it easier for HP?

Lenovo will be loosing enough money with their laptops and on top they are only stupid Box movers. The future is in software not hardware.

I think that you can choose a PC with the configuration you like and if you choose Windows you will get IE. I have never seen anywhere where is says that you most buy Microsoft.
Why should it not be Microsoft’s decision to decide what is shipped with their products?

Is it Microsofts fault that they made the best OS and everyone wanted it?

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 5:15 PM

Microsoft's OS was never the best. It was good enough and cheap enough that PC builders used it. It was open enough that developer's wrote software for it. When became ubiquitous and a monopoly, Microsoft decided it could bully PC builders and tell them what software they could and could not install on their own brand of PCs. Next Microsoft raised the price, and used dirty tricks to disadvantage other software companies. It was wrong and it injured other companies and their customers. That is why so many PC bulders and software developers are struggling and looking for relief, and why Microsoft has multiple criminal convictions around the world.

If Microsoft pulls out of the EU or Korea we will finally get a real international standard for PC hardware and software. Then we will really see who can make the best software. If they had not abused their advantage Microsoft could have owned the de facto standard forever.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 5:29 PM

What? Are you nuts? Look around you man, its the biggest single selling OS in the world. Its not the best? Get the F#$K out of here, goob.

XP is way better than any unix, linux, or whatever crap you can put on a desktop, with maybe the exception of Apple. XP is excellent, you wanker. I don't know what kind of machines you work on, but you don't know anything if you think Windows is simply some over rated software that does nothing more than a task launcher. You need to learn to actually use a product, and quit whining.

Maybe your OS sucks, because you have no idea what you are doing.. so you will experience crashes, because you don't know how to support it.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 6:46 PM

If I had an armored Hummer, a case of hand grenades, and my buddy crazy Steve riding shotgun I could win any NASCAR race even though I didn't have "the best" race car. Of course then I would face criminal prosecution and have to pay billions in fines and civil judgments.

Score: 0

By spef

edited Mar 30, 2006 - 5:05 AM

I've read a lot of comments in the "MS-EU topics" about the EU only being after MS because it's an American company and if it was an European company it would be left alone. I refuse to believe that! That's just plain silly.

On the other way around i believe that it would be a lot quieter over here if MS was an European company. It's WW3 in the making over here...

Score: 0

By iamtux

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 10:35 PM

Vista isn't even out yet and they are already pseudo-threatning them with another suit. Here's my advice to the EU...go to hell. use linux and shutup.

Score: 0

By Gerwin

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 3:03 AM

That's a stupid advice: Linux is not usable, so they cannot use linux. Linux is for masturbating geeks that have nothing else to do but tinkering with their amateur OS.
I have a better advice: Use OSX! OSX is good, windows is bad. Now go away.

Score: 0

By xprizex

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 5:31 PM

The EU is really starting to piss mi off. They might as well merge with RIAA. If you don't like the damn product don't ****ing buy it. I don't use windows media player, I never did. But it never prevented me from installing other media players. So what's the ****ing problem? Are the people in the EU so ****ing retarded they can't set their files to open to a specific programm???

Here's a thought, since the EU is being such a pain in the ass. They should be banned from using Vista. Anyone in the EU caught using Vista will have to pay a hefty fine or prison time. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. (but i'm not) heheh

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 6:46 PM

"The EU is really starting to piss mi off. They might as well merge with RIAA."

LMAO!!! Funniest thing I've heard all day!

Score: 0

By JacenSolo

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:55 PM

PUll out! Pull out! Pull out of europe.

Score: 0

By Das mod

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 3:59 PM

F.U. EU

Score: 0

By drumcat

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 3:05 PM

Just curious, but if they just offered two different installers to EU customers, wouldn't that work? I mean, why not have XPEU, which like I said would have the holy hell stripped out, a full install, and the ability to add stuff that consumers want? Maybe it'd be a more complex install program, but why wouldn't that solve the whole thing?

Browser ability within windows - check
Third party media players - check
Windows Media player - uncheck
MSN preinstall - uncheck
AOL preinstall - grayed out for sanity

I don't get it though -- people install crap all the time. MS has never disallowed an installation, right?

Score: 0

By Floodland

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 8:52 PM

Microsoft offered customized setups since Windows 3.0 (the first I used) upto 2000, I think. In 1990 you could choose if you want to install which components, flawless. They REMOVED from setup such options and that's a bad behavior.
I'm far away from EU court but I understand their worries.
For example: Windows media player is spyware and shouldn't be bundled at all. Internet Exploited is a risk for any living soul, M$N me$$enger is a pest. We should be able to, not uninstall but *NEVER* install such components.
European court seems to worry about their citizens and their rights, north-american seems to have another worries, don't you?

Score: 0

By Niro

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 10:36 PM

"Windows media player is spyware and shouldn't be bundled at all"

Spyware? You must have the wrong definition of spyware. Quicktime...now that might be spyware.

"Internet Exploited is a risk for any living soul"

So with the next version of windows MS should not include IE...then you can go and download any browser you like. Oh wait...you don't have IE how would you download another browser...I guess it's off to Best Buy to buy pay for a browser...

"M$N me$$enger is a pest"

You're entitled to your opinion...but if everything about windows sucks so bad...why are you using it??

"European court seems to worry about their citizens and their rights, north-american seems to have another worries, don't you?"

Oh they sure do...

MS: We've included a free media player in windows, you can always download and install a 3rd party one if you like.

EU: NO!!! Make our citizens pay for a media player! Do not give them one for free!!

MS: We've given you a free internet browser in windows, you can always download and installa 3rd party one if you like.

EU: Unacceptable!! Make them pay for an internet browser! We will not allow our citizens to have any sort of free browser!

Yea I can see where they are looking out for the interest of it's citizens...I'm definetly going to have to move there asap!

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 2:43 AM

"Oh wait...you don't have IE how would you download another browser...I guess it's off to Best Buy to buy pay for a browser..."

um, no. ever heard of file transfer protocol? before IE was bundled you could choose to install it seperately or FTP to ftp.netscape.com and download and install their browser.

"EU: NO!!! Make our citizens pay for a media player! Do not give them one for free!!"

once again, playing the FUD line I see. there are many free media player choices. you dont have to BUY anything

"EU: Unacceptable!! Make them pay for an internet browser! We will not allow our citizens to have any sort of free browser!"

what delusional world you live in? firefox is free, there are shareware browsers such as opera and others that you can use forever without paying a licensing feee - all that fee does is show support and unlock extra features.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 5:52 PM

FTP.exe is MICROSOFT's software for using ftp via internet/intranet. So in a perfect EU, ftp.exe will not exist either.

Score: 0

By AaronDobbins

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 12:51 PM

Pardon me eunichman, but clearly you do not know many computer users. While YOU may be able to easily fire up command line FTP to get to ftp.netscape.com and download the browser, my grandmother/grandfather, aunts & uncles, and most of the people I know that use the internet daily could not. Hell, I implement systems designed to be as simple as possible and we still get what sound like silly questions. In short, not everyone is an expert computer user such as yourself.

And just a question, since you are such an avid supporter of FireFox and its usage...did you use IE to download FireFox or did you yourself go out and ftp download it? How did you know how to ftp download it? Did you go to Best Buy and get instructions or did you use IE to go to Google and figure it out?

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Mar 31, 2006 - 2:00 AM

when i first got my foirst computer I was as clueless as most of todays pc users. I however like to be able to know what I am using and how to use it - in all walks of life. my appliances, my vehicles and my computers. I found ftp back in the old days of dos/win 3.1 (what my system came with) and os/2 warp connect (what a friend loaded on my computer at that time). laziness is no excuse for not knowing how to use your computer. I dont support anyone who is lazy in any way. You want something in this world you have to go out and work for it and get it. Lazy people shouldnt be permitted computers :)

and fyi? I downloaded firefox using my linux box :) no IE :) I used konquerer :)

Score: 0

By Floodland

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 10:34 AM

I mean that IE and Media player and M$N me$$enger should not be MANDATORY. Now you can't choose if you want them on your computer installed or not. In fact, if you go to control panel (after the OS finished loading alll their crap) to uninstall, for example the msn messenger, the control panel announce: Ok, is not there anymore. Now go to your program files folder and guess what? M$N me$$enger is still there! The only thing Microsoft removed is the shorcut. It's hard to believe that's just for compatibility reasons, no way! And also you can't uninstall IE without downloading a separate 3rd party software, got it?
After all, I was writing about we to CHOOSE what to install without have to build your own windows (nlite and such). That was already implemented many years ago, and was removed, WHY?
It's ok if MS wants to Offer windows spy player, internet exploited and every byte of crap they want, but give us, at least, the choice to avoid such crap to fall in our hard disks, choices, not give or not to give.
They have the right to include every single bit of dark software they want to, We should have the right to install them or not, or better, not install "problematic" components by default.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 6:22 PM

Where do we draw the line? Should telnet.exe be mandatory? How about chkdsk? Or how about winnt256.bmp? DEL.EXE? Should they allow removal of Recycle Bin? Apple needs to get the EU to sue MS for stealing their trash can idea, right?

Score: 0

By Floodland

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 10:19 PM

The line should be drawed exactly where we want to draw it, not where they want to drive us, that's the point, don't be fool.
About Apple, they should sue MS for so many things that I couldn't count them.
But Apple *could* sue MS if they don't make dark agreements like they do from time to time: Last I read here sounded like: We release more (buggy) Mac Office versions and you don't open your system to everybody... Of course it should be far more complex, but don't want to write a book here...

Score: 0

By nicobarengo

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 7:12 AM

Opera is a free browser, its not shareware anymore.

Score: 0

By JacenSolo

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:54 PM

Sadly, many programs rely on WMP and IE. I've been looking at the StopIE site, and apparently many Virus scanners use IE to download their updates.

Score: 0

By roj

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 4:12 PM

"Just curious, but if they just offered two different installers to EU customers, wouldn't that work?"

I asked someone very close to MS about this (useful euphemism for "ex-employee) because it's a pet peeve of mine. I LIKE choices. I was given the following eminently plausible explanation:

It's a lot easiery to support a single standard build rather than permutations of that build. Doing it this way keeps support costs down as opposed to the alternative."

I work in an environment where I'm responsible for the Corporate Condom (anti-virus / anti-spam / anti-malware) on 12K desktops.

I see his point - it's a purely business decision.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 3:59 PM

You are trying to infuse common sense to a group that wants to create havoc.

That would be WAaay to easy. I mean they are basically stating that people in Europe are too stupid to figure out how to do a custom install, and ONLY install features they want. If they leave it, and don't complain, gee that must mean it doesn't bother them.

This comes down to 1 guy in Europe with a hard on for MS. That's it. This is some guy with clout throwing his weight around, because he can...

Score: 0

By roj

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 2:49 PM

When will legislators learn to shut up and leave companies and the market to do what they do best? I'm SO tired of this "mother hen school marm" syndrome.

Business isn't fair.

Some competitors will fail.

That's life.

Deal with it.

If MS wants to put everything in the OS, LET THEM. If it's good, it will endure. If it isn't then someone will build something better and try and sell it or open source will produce it. We don't need Mommy or so-called "professional do-gooders" stepping in at every turn.

The Market Will Decide if it's left alone to do so instead of being subject to incessant meddling by government.

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 2:46 AM

get used to government meddling. this is just one area of many the government sticks their nose in because they can and there is nothing you can do about it :)

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:00 PM

mother hen.. that's funny..

I like it.

Score: 0

By shy_one

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 3:54 PM

The Market Will Decide if it's left alone to do so instead of being subject to incessant meddling by government.

Exactly if any one is to be blamed blame Apple and the Linux comunities the other OS choices for not providing better competition for Microsoft.

Score: 0

By Frostek

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:09 PM

There's no way anyone bringing out a OS better than Windows would succeed as Microsoft would use their billions and existing market influences to put it out of business.

Great business sense, but a shame for us consumers who might have benefited.

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 2:47 AM

agreed

Score: 0

By shy_one

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 12:42 PM

eunichman

I posted my replay before you agreed so how about you try to atleast try to put up a proper arguement about how the othe OSes are to blame.

Or could it be that i am right and your just too anti-MS to admit it.

Score: 0

By shy_one

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:35 PM

Microsoft put Linux out of buiness thats the funniest thing yet considering most distros are free even Microsoft with all it's money and power could not kill Linux if they wanted to.

So again blame the other OSes for not providing better competition for Microsoft.

Score: 0

By roj

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:14 PM

...and if they did, THAT'S BUSINESS.

This is not a school dance. It's dog - eat - dog.

BeOS was great. It died. Next...

Score: 0

By JacenSolo

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:59 PM

BeOS lacked features IMO... It had nothing preinstalled.

If Windows was like BeOS, it would die too. The EU is trying to kill Windows. Personally, I think the EU is breaking the law.

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 2:53 AM

LOL the EU is breaking the law. that's funny. Like MS never broke the law? who's law? US law? who cares, the EU isnt the US and they have a right to have their own laws seperate of US laws

Score: 0

By Frostek

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 9:46 AM

Since this is an EU thing only, why are all you Americans so upset about it?

You can still have XP and Vista just the way you like it - with a monolithic OS where Microsoft decide what tools you'll use.

Score: 0

By shy_one

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 12:54 PM

First i'm not american.

Second how about you go to the top of the page and click on where it says FileForum look at all those nice programs Microsoft is not deciding what i use at all other than the ones i choose to.

Score: 0

By wincement

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 1:51 PM

Made the mistake of commenting. I should learn to stay away from these stories.

Score: 0

By John_Bedin

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 1:26 PM

I'll drink to that

Score: 0

By wincement

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 6:55 PM

lol

Score: 0

By spef

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 4:52 AM

Yup, that was the first thing i thought but i never seem to be able not to reply when a lot of bulls*** is posted. Everyone is entitled to have an own opinion but a lot of the comments are just crap.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:54 PM

It's hard not to post your opinion on stories like this. Everyone's opinion is so different that it makes for interesting "conversation".

heh

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:51 PM

How is this asinine? Maybe if they chose a legit path instead of gaining their monopoly illegally then there would still be competition and governments wouldn't have to force them to behave.

Score: 0

By wincement

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 1:54 PM

I agree with that statement, but I don't buy it for a second that the EU thinks this is the best way to do it.

I'm getting out of here before I get too involved. My first comment was a knee-jerk reaction. My apologies. Bah. It's a Wednesday. I never could get the hang of Wednesdays. =p

Score: 0

By John_Bedin

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 1:28 PM

Have another drink on me

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:53 PM

"Still, the Commission is giving Microsoft the benefit of the doubt, spokesperson Jonathan Todd told reporters. "We assume Microsoft has its own interest at heart and it wants to launch another product without having to worry about the Commission instituting various actions under antitrust law because of this product," he said.

In a response, Microsoft assured European regulators it would open the door to third parties in Vista."

There is no problem. ;-)

Score: 0

By Adrian79

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:31 PM

windws media player is wayyy better than alot of other crap....they can remove it from there OS..i'll still download it for free from there wesite....damn haters!

Score: 0

By sztosz

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 2:13 PM

I can't say it is a lie, but on the other hand having Media Player Clasic for Video, and foobar2000 for Music, Windows Media Player seems to be a crap :|

I'm from Poland And I don't see why would WMP be anti competitive? The people are just stupid don't trying to get info about the alternative. M$ may look like "evil" company, but only becouse most of computer users are half-brained :(

Score: 0

By spef

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 4:43 AM

You said it yourself. Most computer users are half-brained. This is where MS profits from. So there should be some clearly understandable setup routine where users can choose the programs they want.

Score: 0

By JacenSolo

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 5:03 PM

MS isn't evil cause their dominant. Their evil cause their software is hell buggy.

But personally, I'd use WMP over Real Player and IE over Netscape any day :( :P

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:18 PM

Sounds like the EU is doing their job and MSFT is trying to work with them to satisfy their concerns.

I don't see a problem here.

Score: 0

By wincement

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:43 PM

...you wouldn't

Score: 0

By fewt

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 1:46 PM

Perhaps because there isn't a problem.

LOL

Score: 0

By JacenSolo

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 5:03 PM

There isn't.

Score: 0

By spef

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 4:38 AM

Allright then.

Score: 0

By shy_one

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:08 PM

Fair competition fair competition wha wha wha

As long as Microsoft allows third party software there is fair competition just because it runs faster and better because it's built into the OS so what they earned that advantage because they made the OS and if you don't like it build your own Linux and Apple ring a bell.

Score: 0

By imafurby

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:00 PM

Ah, let 'em invent their very own EUROTRASH O/S they can use that. Who give a crap?

Score: 0

By Mystiqq

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:04 PM

And another...

Score: 0

By artisanicview

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 11:58 AM

So, wats the poin with the acid comentaries around here? EU want COMPETITION and not MONOPOL. I total agree with the EU point of view! Im from Europe. When is monopol, we need someoane ore somewhat to reestablish the eguality of choices. And Im sore EU have this tratement around microsoft not beacouse is an EU company. Recently the same EU comission has asked the EU mobilephone companies why they have unjustified werry big prices for minut of conversation. Werry soon they will make attitude whith this companies who AR EUs. (Vodafone, etc.). So, in conclusion, microsoft dont have an special tratement beacouse isnt from EU. WE WANT FAIR COMPETITION!

Score: 0

By TanNg

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 12:26 PM

Fair competition is not about dictating what feature the OS should have. Fair competition is about letting MS to innovate without abusing it monopoly power.

What EU is doing now is protecting MS's competitors, not ensuring fair competition.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:22 PM

There is no fair competition if you are allowed to stamp out all of your competitors.

Go read up on the anti-trust act for example.

Capitalism doesn't work in an anarchist society. Capitalism works in America (and elsewhere in the world) because there are laws that provide checks and balances. Without them Capitalism would fail.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:54 PM

I agree with your statements again--that's twice in one week! Man this is freaky...

Score: 0

By fewt

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 1:56 PM

heh

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 12:54 PM

I remember when an OS was just an OS, no protocol stacks, no GUI, no applications, just a platform to build on.

Isn't there an old proverb about building your home on shifting sands? Windows is more like quicksand. If you build anything good it will be swallowed up.

Microsoft should let the people that build and support the computers decide what to install.

Score: 0

By spef

posted Mar 30, 2006 - 4:32 AM

MS made the PC more accessible (and popular) for a larger group of people by developing GUI's, easy to install programms, easy to add hardware, etc.

That this accessibility comes at a price (i.e. security risks) is the downside. But most people just wouldn't know what to do with Linux (some distributions are improving but aren't quite there yet).

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:02 PM

Yeah, progress sucks, eh?

Back when an OS was "just a kernel", no-one used computers. It wasn't until MS, IBM, and others started making them useful that they became popular.

A kernel isn't going to do my parents 1 bit of good. An OS with a media player, a browser, an email app, and a decent interface just might.

Want a stable platform to develop from? Great, any nixish OS will do. Apparently, the consumer wants something else...

Score: 0

By roj

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 4:19 PM

...and lest we forget, IBM wrote the book on monopoly and so-called "unfair practices".

NO ONE does FUD as well as IBM.

No one at all.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:32 PM

"the consumer wants something else..."

As if the average consumer actually had a choice.

I look for the day my parents can choose to buy a new computer from brand A, B, or C each with a different software stack. If choices scare you, just stick with brand M, they will keep you locked in, safe and snug.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:16 PM

Untrue, back in the C64 days computers were as popular as ever. Now, MS IBM and others revolutionized the industry for sure but computers were popular long before Microsoft was a household name. (Though, they created the BASIC OS on most of those computers including the C64)

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Mar 29, 2006 - 1:57 PM

The C64 was not anywhere near as popular. Just about every home in america has a PC or Mac. How many of those houses had a C64 or Tandy?

Sheesh...

Score: 0

By fewt

edited Mar 29, 2006 - 2:11 PM

Enough for it to make the guiness book of world records.

The C64 was the most popular computer of all time

I do