I always find these debates rather interesting.

Basically, the outcome of things like this always stem from a battle between the geeks (like me) and the casual user (like my wife, and 95-99% of my family and relatives).

No matter how much I can speak about enhanced image quality and sound, it ends up with how much it costs, ie TV set, DVD player, renting afterwards, borrowing and lending content with family and friends, etc...

It's sorta hard to win when we have a DVD player and VHS player, and she still buys films on VHS because they are so cheap. I mean, it's not like my kids see a difference anyway (which is true - I remember being a kid watching my favorite cartoon on TV with full of snow because we didn't have cable then (yeah, I'm getting old ;) )

I can understand Blue-ray as being a better format technically than HD-DVD, but I still see this format losing in the long run because it is for a very restrained target audience, as have been many of Sony's other formats in the past, which have faded and died.

As far as I'm concerned, I've adopted the "practical" approach when I go about buying something that will be used by everyone in the family - I stopped drooling and just go with what works in the long run. HD-DVD is the format I would go for *just because* I think it will win the overall market; not because it's better, but it will be good and cheap enough.

Vla

Good call Vlavlababa.

People always mention Beta-max - how about the wonderful MiniDisc?

MiniDiscs were announced in 1991 by Sony - and really NEVER took off, but they still semi-support the media. I would totally agree that Blu-Ray has the potential to fail becasue of a limited target audience.

Either way - the battle will rage on...I just hope there is a winner before the holiday season :-)

Same thing with the film studios that are dropping from the UMD format for the PSP.

It's too bad, really, because the PSP is a nice machine, but the format lock-in (and cost that comes with it) is killing that functionality of the device.

Sony has this habit of leaving their customers "stranded" with formats that are not mainstream which disappear all too quickly from the market.

Vla

Vla - I couldn't agree more. I purchased a PSP to try it out - very nice device with a really sharp screen. But the UMD lock-in is just plain "dumb", for lack of a better term. They even locked the consumer into the whole Memory Stick crap which has NO benefit over standard SD memory. I really hate Sony and I don't feel as though they care for the consumer either...

My thoughts exactly. It's not always the specs that decide the outcome, but what the consumer is willing to pay or can afford.

The winner will be the LG player that supports both. Just like DVD+-R/RW once this player is mass produced, there will be no reason for a consumer to choose.

It doesn't matter if someone makes a player which supports both (though it seems such a player would be VERY expensive so it would lose anyway). One of the formats is going to die, it doesn't make sense to have two different formats out there.

What really doesn't make sense, to me, is to let an inferior technology win because the other is more expensive at the moment.

jp_ext:
ladylust did not make a n00b comment - you did. You just said HD DVD is a lesser format and Blu-Ray has better specs - this is a poor comment and illustrates your misunderstanding of the formats. While Blu-Ray may provide more space, the Blu-Ray media will only be using the MPEG 2 format which is what current DVD uses today. Sony believes this format it the future. HD DVD will provide the choice of MPEG 4 or VC-1. I would much prefer the newer codecs as opposed to the same old MPEG 2 with less compression. Your comment about the cutting of production on standard DVD players is pretty 'out there'. Do you have a foundation for this hypothesis? You do realize that they are still selling VHS players correct? On the physical media side - the Blu-ray disc substrate will be coated with a 0.1 mm thick protective layer, which must be clean and optically pure (free from defects). This will be VERY interesting to see how these hold up (even with the new coating material). Has anyone rented DVD's lately? Looks like they were dragged from the back of a truck on the highway...

BTW - I have asked many non-geek folks and family members on which they would rather own HD-DVD or Blu-Ray and their instant response was HD-DVD. I asked why and they indicated the name sounds like HDTV, so HD-DVD just makes sense.

Personally - I have a very large, custom, front projection, dedicated theater. I am projecting onto a 100" screen with an Oppo DVD player and I must say everything looks great. Lost in HD looks great over Cox cable as well. I have seen the HD-DVD demo and it doesn't look THAT great when I compare it to an HD boradcast show (e.g. - Lost)- especially not worth replacing my entire collection. I don't think I will be choosing HD-DVD or Blu-Ray until this format war is over....

Did you also mention that Blu-ray discs will have better audio (more channels at a higher bit rate) than HD-DVD? By the way, if you want the movie and the extras on your disc, it might make more sense to go with Blu-ray. It can stand the test of time.

If we (Americans) keep buying into inferior technology, I'm gonna have to go live in Japan. They always have the best and most advanced technology. They just don't have a lot of room!

DVD costs more than CD. This doesn't mean that CD is BETTER than DVD.

Soon (1-2 years) both HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be cheap enough for everyday use (if one of them won't loose the battle completely).

"DVD costs more than CD. This doesn't mean that CD is BETTER than DVD."

CDs were never meant to be for Movies. Those are 2 different formats created for 2 different purposes. With Blueray and HD-DVD we're talking about 2 formats created for a single purpose.

ladydust:
Noob comment.. HD DVD is a lesser format and Blu-ray has better specs. Sony and Pioneer will create Blu-ray players (and stop DVD player production). PS3 will also have a Blu-ray player and the pr0n industry has chosen Blu-ray.. So go figure..

HD-DVD will rule the movie market. I dont think its a better format but just the betamax tape, Blu-Ray will follow in batamax footsteps. HD-DVD is easy to understand. The consumer will think - I own an HD-TV, I should own an HD-DVD. The simple fact that HD-DVD has the letters "DVD" in it will push the average consumer to its side. Blu-Ray sounds great to the average techno junkie, but to the average consumer it sounds like something you see in an aquarium. As for a computer platform I see a lot of promise with blu-ray. Perhaps HD-DVD will be the movie standard and PC's will move to Blu-Ray. This is all short term speak, in 3 years im sure we will see dual format drives and dvd players. The makers of both formats stand to lose a ton of money if they dont get together sooner or later.

No comments on the amazing quality of these movie releases?

I mean, "50 First Dates"? Gotta be one of the all time greats, right? Right up there with "Gone with the Wind", I'd wager.

The Fifth Element? Bladerunner doesn't even compare in terms of pure Sci-Fi enjoyment, am I right?

As for "Hitch" and "House of Flying Daggers", I mean....Can words even describe them?

Where's the PRON?...:P

Hehe, it's funny that you mention that.

I was starting to think that *I* was the one who just didn't know what the good films were.

I would have thought that although some classics would have been nice, such as some form of re-re-re-re-mastering of the "Star Wars" collection, I'm surprised that they have not come out with films that are just gorgeous to look at as to really enhance the "experience", like a "Lord of the Rings" high definition set, or something of the sort?

I'll just assume I know nothing in merchandising, and that "Hitch" is the way to go ;)

Vla

Oh yes, every pixel in higher quality pr0n counts! :P

Forget both of these and the PS3, LG is making a player to support BOTH formats. The best way to win the war is not be part of it :)

If I check my DVD player in my computer it supports DVD+-R/RW what a great concept :)

no the best way to win is to sell arms to both sides, and get fat and rich off of it:-)

like the lg player.

I got the goods,
It would really sux if Toshiba looses the battle, even worse it would sux for Sony cuz they are gambling everything on blue-ray. If blue-ray fails, ps3 failes and everything else takes a hit.

On the other hand, if Sony wins, I'm applying for any position they have :)

Blue Ray failure does not equal PS3 failure.

Myself, I see it the other way around. I believe if the PS3 fails blueray will fail. I really think Sony is depending on the PS3 to push blueray's adoption. Look at this way are most people going to be willing to pay $500 or $600 for a PS3, or $1000 for a Blueray Player. As for myself I'm not paying $1k for something that just plays movies when I can get something that plays movies and games for 400 bucks less.

That's a good and interesting point, and I would probably do the same thing if I were to go the Blu-ray way.

But, if people were to do that in general, Sony would benefit, but not the other companies that had agreed to join Sony in the first place to support the format.

I wonder how the other companies will feel when their own partner (and founder) cuts below suggested retail prices of normal Blu-ray players with the PS3.

Would they cut their prices and make less profit or simply back out and embrace another format like the HD-DVD?

Vla

It's my theory that the PS3 will end up alienating Sony's partners. The PS3 uses a software decoder allowing for the lower price. The partners are using hardware decoders which doesn't allow for much of a price cut....not this early in the game anyway. Sony's partners will end up embracing HD-DVD and blueray will become another one of Sony's lost formats.

Blu-ray is a better format in everyway with the exception of price for both production and the consumers.

160 companies are supporting BD's while a mere number is supporting HD-DVD's. I'm going with the one that has a higher potential of hitting the mainstream.

Last I heard, that "mere number" included more of the biggest companies than the 160 that support blue ray.

Cost to produce, and cost to buy definitely matter.

Other than holding more data...more than needed...how is Blu-ray better than HD-DVD.

Don't mind me, I am still waiting for HoloDVDs

"Blu-ray is a better format in everyway with the exception of price for both production and the consumers."

Even assuming that to be an accurate statement (which I am not denying)--price alone may be enough to determine the outcome. Beta tapes were much better in almost every way to VHS tapes, but VHS was cheaper.

The failure of Betamax had more to do with it being proprietary and there were also some licensing oversites as well.

HD-DVD is buyable NOW.. Tons of movies in the format, I can even get them with netflix. Blu-Ray is more expensive and HD-DVD just sounds better to the average consumer. Trust me.. Blu-ray = Betamax.

Betamax is totally irrelevent. What does it have to do with Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD?

Comparison: the act or process of comparing : as a : the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another b : an examination of two or more items to establish similarities and dissimilarities

Are PC based HD-DVD drives and blank media out on the market? Blu-ray drive's and blank media just released in Tokyo:

http://www.biccamera.com...RL=pcoption/i_drive.jsp

Drives around $700 (with discounts) Media 25GB $15 50GB $40.

Aside from data archiving though... pretty useless at the moment.

Wow. That's just stupid.

considering that sony had nearly the same set up with betamax as they do now with BD. they failed last time and whey will this time.

Never trust any Sony brand products, period!

I'll stick with HD-DVD, despite of the size differences.

Sony + Rootkits = Bad Company

Sony + EverQuest = Screwed Over Game

Sony + (Insert crappy product) = You get the picture.

PS3? The WHOLE company can't be bad.. just a few departments.

I'm looking forward to the PS3...as tens of millions are. Getting a gaming console that plays blu-ray and is a media hub for $600 is amazing. Better than the 1,000 bucks I'd have to pay for a single disc stand-alone blu-ray player.

"PS3?"
Guess we'll just keep waiting and see :)

Sony + Everquest = going on 8 years and still going strong. I been playing since 1999 and still love the game. With every new online game that comes out that thinks they are going to take out everquest.. everquest still and always will win.

Never trust any Sony brand products, period!

I'll stick with HD-DVD, despite of the size differences.

Sony + Rootkits = Bad Company

Sony + EverQuest = Screwed Over Game

Sony + (Insert crappy product) = You get the picture.

oh man these losers still around. get a life and move on

They don't call it EveerCrack for nuthin'.

*grin*

so what is the benefit to blue ray movies? Is there something special about them that would make them better than DTS 6.1 movies?

"While DVD (Video) used Dolby Digital and DTS (optional) in 5.1 and 6.1 modes and LPCM, HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be capable of true 7.1 playback using lossy or loss-less copression schemes."

"Dolby trueHD and DTS-HD have both been limited to 8 channels on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD players even though both audio formats can support more than 8 channels (16 to be exact!)"

Also...

"HD-DVD has a max capacity of 30GB using double layer media with prototypes as large as 45GB using triple layer media.

Blu-Ray has a max capacity of 50GB using double layer media with prototypes as large as 200GB using eight layer media."

But check this:

http://news.com.com/Simp...100-1041_3-5387732.html

woah.. 1 Terabyte on a DVD.. Cool! That would almost be enough to drive across country and put all my MP3's on..: )

Someone below made a comment that relates:

People started talking about 800 gig and 1 terabyte hard drives for personal use, that is just NUTS!

rij...something-or-other, I believe.

;P

You must be nuts. Welcome to the club.

Its 2006 going on 2007..that story is from 2004. A 1 Tbyte disk is nice, do you think you will see it any time soon? of course not.. they have to milk the consumer. 25 gb, 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, etc.. we wont see 1 TB disks for a very long time.. it would destory the hard drive industry.. We will have to have a 10 TB Standard HD before you will see a DVD writeable disk thats 1 TB.

Blu-Ray = Betamax of DVD's. Forshadowing .. they both being with a B. :P

One thing I don't get is why do Toshiba HD-DVD players only support two channel Dolby TrueHD lossless compression? Is this a limitation with the HD-DVD player itself or is it a limitation with the current HDMI spec?

Move to the UK and you can drive across the country on about 300MB of MP3s!! ;-)

Blu-Ray
Betamax

Look, the a is also in the same place!

no no you got it all wrong, this one has TWO capital letters
*smirk*

http://westavon-systems.co.uk/pd_pioneer_bdr101a.cfm

It's a player (and recorder) for £645.

Was there a point to this? What does Pioneer have to do with Sony?

It's a Blu-Ray drive. Priced well under what most speculation has suggested they'd be priced, from the look of it.

"Sony Pictures said Tuesday that the first Blu-ray movies would be released on June 20, coinciding with the release of the first Blu-ray DVD player from Samsung, and a Sony VAIO Blu-ray PC."

Samsung Blu-Ray player is not quoted by Samsung as being released on the 20th--in fact, the only thing even remotely close to that that I can find must be that report on Best Buy's website indicating it will be sold on the 26th. Other than that--only hard evidence indicates the first blu-ray player will be available in August, not June. Perhaps I missed something, but I believe Betanews may have missed it too.

Is there anyone with a non-biased opinion who can clarify when the first living Blu-Ray player will be available to the public?

Who cares? I'm not biased, but even if someone knew when it was due to be released, it probably will change again, it's changed no less than 4 times since this time last year.

Why would anyone be gripped to their seats when this is going to be released? It'll be expensive, likely laden with a rootkit, and likely overpriced by 300%.

was waiting for someone to mention rootkit.

I doubt you even know what a rootkit is. Just like dropping it in sentences to make it sound like you know what your talking about..

Damn, do you like attack everyone or what? you have a very negative attitude..

Did your step father molest you as a kid or what?

BTW "sentances" is spelled s-e-n-t-e-n-c-e-s

I find it to be very unlikely that a rootkit would be a potential issue---remember that it is Samsung's player that's coming out, and it was Sony who had the rootkit issues to begin with...that is, unless you believe that there is a conspiracy to build the all-important rootkits of doom into the autorun feature when blueray hits PC...? Quite frankly, I don't understand the hype over the new product; we haven't even touched the surface on the 3-layer-2-sided DVDs yet, a product which hold something like 28.2 gigs of imformation FYI...why not use the technology already available to us?

Sure I know what it is, I experienced one secondhand.

A home user came to me, again, with a Windows XP box acting funny. ALL of his CD-ROMs stopped working on the machine. He paid me to find out what was wrong. It turned out the rootkit Sony installed on his machine through legit purchase of a CD-ROM, for whatever reason, was preventing access to other CD's through Windows Media Player. I removed it, and everything worked again. I told him to stop buying sony products (that was my technical advice, not my social advice) and he'd be set.

Comments like that simply make you look like an idiot, Mr. Gillespie, and quite frankly, your spelling/pronoun/punctuation errors reinforce the validity of that statement. Please be constructive or just stop posting.

mj.. don't give in to this a******'s comments. We all know you are a smart guy.

He is trying to drag you down to his level.

Don't even dignify his lame posts.

*.. touched the surface on the 3-layer-2-sided DVDs yet, a product which hold something like 28.2 gigs of imformation FYI...why not use the technology already available to us?*

The same could be said about a lot of products, sadly. People started talking about 800 gig and 1 terabyte hard drives for personal use, that is just NUTS! Who needs that much space at home.

At any rate, thanks for pointing this out. I like the idea of 28.2 gig on a DVD. Now its approaching useful for backup.

Or you could have told him to turn autoplay off.

It depends if you want to give professional IT advice to your customers or make huge blanket statements and appear as an elitist computer nerd.

"Did your step father molest you"

-- ouch... !

My two cents: Sony can die on a holiday. Their first Blue-Ray Laptop is gonna debut at $3500. WTF kind of sense does that make? Im sure plenty of you will no doubt TELL me, but bottom line is, both toshiba AND sony are a******s for not swallowing their pride and coming to an agreement early on. And im next to positive that it was because sony has the bigger ego. They always HAVE to be first in the format wars... Beta, Dual-layered CD-R (remember those?), minidisc (mini-who?). They cant agree to support someone elses media so they lose out, and i hope they lose this time too... serves em right

People who use their PC's as media servers. When a DVD takes a few gigs alone, that easily adds up.

Who needs that much space at home.

Moi.

Movies, music, games, backups of installation media (not to mention the backups of the DVDs and Music).

Remember, not everyone uses lossy codecs for their music collection. 1 of your songs, at 5MB is closer to 35MB for me. Take you entire music collection, and multiply the space it takes my 6. :)

1TB doesn't seem that ridiculous anymore...

BZZZTT, wrong. A rootkit is a METHOD of stealthing itself to other programs or the host operating system.

Rootkits are not viruses.
Rootkits are not spyware.
Rootkits are not even necessarily bad.

A 1TB Disk sounds very ridiculous when a 1TB hard drive is about $400-500.00. A 1TB Mass produced writeable DVD would destory the hard drive industry. You wont see a DVD like that until hard drives are pushing TB's standard on most computers.

An optical unit it's far different from a HDU. No writable optical unit can match HDU performance and usability.

Not bloody likely when the speeds would very well be *far* short of that of a hard drive. Besides, kinda hard to operate cache from a writable DVD...

Size isn't everything. ;)

CaptainObvious was right.

"Did your step father molest you as a kid or what?"

How uncomfortable would you have been if he said, "No, it was my biological father."

I want to put a smiley but that almost seems going to far

um no actually you are a moron.

a rootkit is malware that MAKES USE OF a method of stealthing itself from the user and operating system.

you are an complete idiot.

meh i think they just want to create a standard so they can charge/sue other companies for using their standard.

edited Jun 14, 2006 - 2:50 AM