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Gates: Blu-ray DRM is 'Anti-Consumer'

By Nate Mook, BetaNews

October 17, 2005, 2:04 PM

As part of a speaking tour at universities across the United States, Microsoft chairman Bill Gates sat down with Princeton's newspaper to discuss the road ahead. When asked why Microsoft chose to support HD DVD over Sony's Blu-ray format, Gates replied that Blu-ray's copyright protection scheme is "anti-consumer."

"The inconvenience is that the [movie] studios got too much protection at the expense consumers and it won't work well on PCs," Gates said. "It's not the physical format that we have the issue with, it's that the protection scheme on Blu-ray is very anti-consumer." Gates also questioned how much next-gen DVD formats will even matter, saying content will soon be streamed directly or stored on a hard disk.

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By njking

edited Nov 23, 2006 - 10:14 AM

BLUE RAY VS HD DVD

Listen up Ladies this isn't the issue. Bill gates supporting HD-DVD isn't the issue. Nor is Blu Ray and it's Large price tag.

The real issue is simple.

In 1997 the first ever dvd player was released. and the price tag was forget about it.

The picture was amazing crystal clear. (can you believe we thought that dvd's were the greatest) and we all wanted one but most of us waited and that's a fact. Vhs still ruled the world, as bootlegers bullied the work with camcord like quality and momo like sound. nothing offical of a quality bootleg.

but the battle of vhs vs dvd was a joke! i mean we all new the dvd would win, and finally vhs would be a thing of the past. but here's where the real issue comes in to play.

in what year did companys stop producing vhs?
will the movie indusrty just stop making them.
well darn it's been 8 years since dvd movies and players have been out and the winner is dvd. if it took 8 years to decide who won out of vhs and dvd. how long will it take to see who's going to will out of

dvd vs hd dvd vs blue ray

When dvd's first came into affect the price tag made us step back, but Sony and it's ps2 let us go on dvd buying spree. For 299 you got yourself a state of the art video game console plus the power of watching dvd movies. and that's the reason why dvd stand alones came down in price. Once the movies starting flying off the shelves they didn't have an choice but to cut back prices. Plus they made there money off the thousands of people that spend 500 or 600 dollars for them in 97-98.

So what happens now, how do figure who's going to win the war, lets put it like this, if you don't own a ps3 or 360 the winner for the next 8 years it's Standard dvd players with HDMI. And i'm not saying 8 because it took 8 for vhs to lose. i'm saying 8 because of this

it's almost december of 2006, in 2008 hdtv becomes the new standered in tv. So in one year all new tv's bought will be atleast hd ready. So everybody living in the past or just waiting for this moment for the biggest gain will now be atleast ready for the for the next gen.

then we have the issue when you buy that hdtv your old dvd player is going to look like crap, and after you shell out 12 to 1600 for a tv your not going to want to pay an additional 300 to 800 for either blue ray or hd dvd player. And i know this to be true when the salesman shows you that hdmi player that needs one wire hook up and it's going coast 80 bucks with a simple one wire hook up, and it'll play your same old movie, and make them look better. Plus you won't have to pay 30 or 40 dollars for the movies (because even if the players lower there price the movies will coast the same)you'll take the hdmi just to get you started because it's your first hdtv.

Now that covers the first year. 7 more to go.

now you have your hdtv and either cable or satellite you'll also have a hd dvr.
and with every channel being hd and having hbo showtime and all the rest broadcasting new movies that were made in true hi def, you can afford to wait another two years maybe before really having the need to buy that
hd dvd or blu ray player

so that three years covered. 5 more to go.

HDTV HD-DVR now it's time to use your computer.
We haven't even spoke on blu ray and hd dvd camcorders yet. if hd dvd keeps the 60 gig cap. some might lean toward blu ray drives. to have the power to store maybe 100 gigs of family video at hd quality! or even blu ray quality! all you believe that. to take have a 160 gig hard-drive but spend 60 dollars for a pack 20 hd-dvd disc and store every movie they downloaded ripped. lets not forget about the brandnew hd-dvd pc games that'll come out really soon. it'll be amazing.

then you have blu ray with it's smug proof surface that's ideal for parents with young children, carelsess children that uses there computer and ereases important documents, damages there movies music and cds. all your most important information can be on a disc that won't be lost because your child drop dvd behind the computer and it sat for weeks until you came home one day and started cleaning and your dvd got sweept up into a dust pan before you ever knew it was missing. thank God it's blu ray and it's not lost for good.

and those choices might take another year or two to make. so here we are to the last and final 3 yrs

in these last years it comes down to price quailty and push.

if your talking about movies like Bill gates then copyright won't be a issue because only a small amount of people copy movies for a living, odd job, or for fun. the majority of us buy bootleg, or borrow movies. think about it, when you work 40 hours a week come home cook dinner check homework deal with the kids yelling and screaming at one another just driving you up a wall, copying movies you rented isn't really on the top of your list is it?

as movies are concern it comes down to what movie company are pushing what titles to what format.

if hbo pushes it's next big tv series like the sopranos on blu ray

and abc pushes it's number shows like lost and desperate housewives on hd-dvd. we have a choice to make.

we haven't had a war like this in over 30year concerning tv formats. for the longest time every tuesday vhs and dvds had the same movies in both formats.

now if this war get personal and companies decide what format they wanna choose then it comes down to personal taste. and that's why i say this war could last for 8 years and for 8 more years the only format we know every title will come out on is just a plain dvd.

now on my last note. BLU RAY will win the battle on the pc/mac. it's just to powerful storage isn't like anything we had before. unlike dvd's it's ability to keep adding space is amazing. the fact that it's smug proof makes it the clear winner. and in 8 years blu ray disc will be as cheap as 60.00 dollars for maybe a pack of 20 and that's the same price i think hd-dvds will coast.

Score: 0

By aventura_alex

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 11:31 AM

It only reminds me of Bill Gates paying not much attention to the internet years ago as much to the point of having to rewrite his own book. Of course only time will tell which standard will stand, but for now, it only seems a game that Bill's willing to win.

Score: 0

By Xelion

edited Oct 19, 2005 - 4:11 AM

Streaming a high-definition film costs more than buying it. Bill is a bit deluded I think with his grandeur thoughts of future technology.

Anyway HD DVD and Blu-ray, both long-winded names by the way, are the fallout of the DVD technology evolution. They haven't even manage to come up with a sequel to the abbreviation of DVD (eg, CD then DVD, there should be a new one since it is a new format). Still at a size of 12cm, and composed of polycarbonate materials and dyes this technology remains to be outdated. Maybe if the disc became 8cm and was capable of storing 20GB (single sided single layer), that would also become more environmentally friendly.

Anti-Consumer laws. Heh, copy protection is great, only to the extent that it does not interfere with the movie itself. Why would you want to copy a movie, or stream it(size issue)? And creating a backup simply isn't a good enough excuse! Only an idiot has the capacity to scratch or dirty a Disc to the extent it becomes unreadable.

If both formats are accepted it is unlikely some plugin will read both, hardware will probably be required, as for two LEDs that may also be a possibility.

Where-ever this situation leads to it will be in the consumers best interest if they follow their advice.

Score: 0

By aretzios

posted Oct 20, 2005 - 8:09 PM

Why would you want to stream a movie???? Is this really a question? I think that you would like to do it because, like today's music, you would like to store the movies you own on your PC (and soon, 2 or so TBs of storage would be rather common) and watch it through you media center in any of the HDTVs that you may have. Is this a good enough scenario for you? If Blue-Ray would not allow this, then it is dead and gone, despite the paid journalism that Sony is disseminating (see stupid triumphalism such as "Blue-Ray has won")

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

edited Oct 19, 2005 - 5:59 AM

So you have never damaged a CD or DVD so that it won't load/play properly? I find that hard to believe - most of us are not quite that perfect! I guess that 95% of the people are idiots, right? Your smug condesention rings false: perhaps you don't know what you're talking about. More evidence supporting that view - no "plug-in" is going to support both formats, as they are hardware incompatable. Read the specs - they don't even use the same type of laser! This means that even mulltiformat drives (similar in concept to the present +/- drives) are highly unlikely, as such a drive would probably require two totally independant laser assemblies, with their associated mechanical support systems. Even if such a drive was created, reliability would almost certainly be in the toilet.

About Bill's comment about streaming: #1- he has so much money that I doubt he thinks about things like the relative cost of streaming vs. disk and #2- Bill is misjudging the average customer's perception that, costs being equal or close, disk (a physical object that you own, more or less) will always present better value than a streaming (ephemeral) download, especially if the download is wrapped in protection that prevents duplication as needed (not an allowance of two or three duplicates that conform to strictly defined parameters).

Frankly, I'm amazed that after all this time the suits still don't realize that copy protection doesn't work and never will, and all they're doing is annoying their customers, entertaining the protection crackers, and supporting a parasitical industry of protection coders who inflate the cost of the product while cutting into the bottom line!(Not to mention degrading performance....)

Score: 0

By Xelion

posted Oct 20, 2005 - 5:59 AM

Have I damaged a CD/DVD, NO! What I said earlier I meant, and its not smug. I hardly think 95% of the people actually scratch or dirty their CD/DVD(s), the percentage is much less I would think. A lot of people are just generally dirty, AND THAT IS PROVEN FACT! For example a relative of mine has borrowed CD/DVD(s) in the past (of course no more :)) and if a forensic investigator were to inspect those CD/DVD(s) borrowed they would easily get his entire set of prints. You don't have to be perfect and neither close to it but if you use common sense you won't damaged your discs. Heres a guide of what you DON'T do with a disc:
1. Drop them
2. Leave them upside down on any surface
3. Expose them to sunlight for long periods
4. Incorrectly hold them
5. Purposely rub them on a surface with intent to scratch (This usually occurs out of spite)
6. There are many more don'ts - use common sense!

I don't have to read specs on a technology that follows the disc evolution since I've done a report on CD/DVD(s) and if you know about Shuji Nakamura you'd know find out even more. I know there are different formats that may/may not use the same hardware, but even if its expensive now it'll be cheaper later, and a prime example of multi-format combination is the Panasonic DVD drive which is able to read both DVD Standard and DVD RAM.

Reliability has got to do with Brand Names, some use better components then others and tend to work better with more formats, more expensive brand names tend to be more comfortable in the market and so don't give s*** about improving or providing the best technology possible as much as other brands. Hey that’s just me and what I've been through and seen and it’s the truth.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 10:34 AM

Samsung did announce it would make a blu-ray/HD-DVD player in one drive just FYI, but correct it uses two different lasers and will likely be quite expensive.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 4:39 PM

Expensive and, I imagine, quite unreliable. Double the number of moving parts = double the problems. They'll be dropping like flies!

Score: 0

By Nilsy

posted Oct 18, 2005 - 7:02 PM

Hi from Norway.
Of course it's pretty damn obvious for all of us on this Forum to understand that regardless of whether it's going to be HD or Blu-Ray, they will get cracked etc inside my fried egg and toast is done.

But, I don't think that's the point. While regular DVD's will still have a good market share in the future, this is largely a question for the pro film industry.
They will be shipping out their High Res stuff to the stores for the High Res Plasma screens lining our bedrooms and living rooms.

The film equipment to start with is a fair buck to get, and then to tinker with it, and burn it out is of course something we will all want to do, and even if we don't see any quality improvement, we will still SAY it.
Just as burning a CD today works roughly the same as my old SyQuest.

The battle boiled down to price.
As this will.

I have already seen several FREE HD plugins for Adobe Premiere and Ulead "something" (think it was VideoSt. or MediaSt. or both?).
So, this will probably be a regular codec "thingy", once the input devices are readily available.
Output too of course, hence all this.

As time goes on, the quality of all of this stuff has become hugely better!!! It takes a galactic idiot not to see that.
Sure, if you look at a car wheels, its traction etc was figured out a long time ago, as was the physics around sound from loud speakers. All very physical attributes to their particular purpose.

But this is tech stuff, and bits and bytes Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission Radiation etc.
Call it a microscopic wheel if you really must, but the microscope just leaped a big step into the future. And I am glad I'm here to see it... I hope.

Bill seeing into the future you say?
Well, I recon he can probably see better into the tech future than all of us here, even if he gets stuff wrong from time to time.

Bill might be an a** etc, but, his stuff has worked well for me, most of the time. So, I don't have a problem with MS stuff.

I don't know enough about Blu Ray or HD to actually understand what the consumer problem is with it though.
But Windows is at least in my opinion extremely user friendly. But then again, so is anything once you're used to it, and thanks to his ability to market stuff, most people have it.

And before you all jump down my throat, yes, I am aware of the security issues etc etc etc with it. But this is not about MS, it's the High Res stuff.

We all went for the DV stuff when it came, regardless of the Super High 8 and all the other weird formats from the 90's.
Do any of you really think for a second that the next jump up is not going to be accepted?

Of course it will!
It's our "d***-Extension" of this centuary.
Get real.
-I can see the difference already haha.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 6:17 AM

You are mistaken about the "codec thingie". First, see my previous comments about the hardware. Second, you are making the common error of confusing the hardware and software layers of the technology. The plugins you have seen are software level format encoders, similar in concept to the mpeg1, mpeg2, and mpeg4 codecs we are all familiar with - these are used to format the content to conform with a general standard for playback which is independant of, and common to the two competing hardware standards, which function on the level after authoring - the physical pressing of disks and the associated playback hardware. The incompatability issues at this level have nothing whatsoever to do with that software level; they are akin to a set of identical VOB files existing in one case on a DVD and in another case on a hard drive. The hard drive ain't gonna be able to read the DVD and vise-versa, no matter what you do, even though the files themselves are identical and both play back through Power DVD or a similar program.

Comprendez-vous?

Score: 0

By pwogger

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 12:19 PM

I think something important is to realize that there are two forces at work here.
One is the ever changing technology that we just feel we need. People have survived for centuries just fine without it, but we feel that it is some sort of necessity. In the end, it is the demands of the consumer that will decide the fate of any advance in technology. Speculate all you want. Even Bill can't see the future... he may be right, but even his time machine would need a firmware upgrade to see the true future. Besides that, there is no way that digital media can be governed as long as it is possible to view it! There is always someone out there willing to circumvent any and all "protection" to get what they want. It all comes back to the end consumer. Is it worth it?
Second, this is not the only industry that changes and requires new formats and obsolescence. Car manufacturers have been doing this type of thing for a long time too. They change the way the vehicles operate and the parts they need. Sure, they claim that it is redesigned to improve your experience as a driver, but really, do you think that wheel bearings and brakes have really made a huge change. The electronics in cars have changed so you can't put a newer engine in an old car, unless you want to put a huge amount of work into it or replace half the car. We end up buying more because you can't get parts for older cars and even then they never last forever. We are slaves to the businesses. They control to a huge degree how much we spend and how often! The point is other markets exhibit the same problems as the technology industry does. Tech items change more rapidly so we notice it more, and unless you're willing to exercise your only real source of control on the industry by not purchasing something that comes out that's flashy and new, you might as well just flip your pockets inside out and zip your mouth shut.
In reality, if we as a society didn't want it, or we didn't think the advantages outweighed the disadvantages, it would not be there. So maybe we should just sit back once in a while and THINK about what we are really wanting and what we are willing to give up for it. There is always a compromise, we just have to figure out what it's going to be. In the case of vehicles and transportation there is the issue of alternate fuel sources! The benefits will probably be deemed as outweighing the drawbacks in the end. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what WE choose in the end.

Score: 0

By Birdman895

posted Apr 11, 2006 - 5:36 PM

You stated,
>"They control to a huge degree how much we >spend and how often! "
You make this comment but then go on to say that we have the ability to NOT BUY IT. The second statement is true. We are not slaves to business's new products or the advertising that they use to sell it! I think that the first statement shows an underlying bias against business or perhaps even against free markets. This bias is far too prevalent in the world today, and is just the first step towards demanding the "Government" do something about it.
I am not a slave to any product unless I am being forced by government to buy it. A few consumers acting in concert can throw a wrench into any demographic theory that a company has. This is proven everyday when people decide that they have had enough and do something about it THEMSELVES.
Of course the focus would have to switch from demanding a new law, say, to taking action on our own. It would also mean going without the new product, so whats it going to be?
I will probably wait until a drive is available that will read both formats and is reasonably priced, like I did with DVD-RW

Score: 0

By bigsexy022870

posted Oct 18, 2005 - 11:31 AM

i dont think it matters much if Xbox360 supports HD-DVD or blueray. Let's face neither tech is ready to roll yet. Best estimates are end of next year. This year just isnt gonna happen. And Face it new tech is never popular. It will cost way to much and the Movies which this is all about wont even be out. Maybe a few at first, but nothing major. Blanks for us burning freaks will cost a bundle and will for at least 2 years. DVD is still going to be the main format for at least 2-4 years. The vast majority of america and in fact the world still have standard definition tv's. What good is a hi-def dvd if you cant watch it. Untill the day comes when hi-def tv's cost as litle as 400 for a 27inch model the mainstream will be unable to get them. Most people get cheap tv's and that wont change cause they cant afford more.
Now as far as this streaming video only world Bill Gates believes is right arround the corner. He needs to read my first statement. At best his little fantasy world is like 10-20 years off. And to be honest i think it will never really happen. No one wants to rid them selves of the physical movies or media product. It gives us security to have it somewhere so if are hard drives crashes all are movies wont be gone. Streaming content will be for the most part just like it is now. More or less a rental situation. Places like Blockbuster will go the way of the 8 Track. Which is where we are now with cable tv's streaming content.
As far as this copy protection thing is concurned. What have they ever done that hasn't been cracked. The pc industry boom was founded on the premise that copies and trading with your friends was the advantage of the pc. This is why i am a pc gamer and not a PS2 or Xbox gamer. I would rather spend 2-3000 on a custom built pc that i created and download a ton of free stuff. Where with a platform you can only play games and maybe watch a movies but who actually buys a xbox cause they needed something to watch striptease on.

Score: 0

By FidelCashflow

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 11:15 AM

IMO, any form of DRM is anti-consumer. You shouldn't be restricted on the use of something you bought with your money. It is in your possession and should stay that way. DRM should be something used on music, software, or movies you rent. If DRM is instituted in a majority of media and devices, hackers will have a field day with it.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 6:24 AM

You didn't buy it - read the EULA!

I totally agree with your views on protection. I also don't accept the legal fiction embodied in the standard EULA, but what can you do?

Score: 0

By dan-0

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 9:03 AM

By next year, the gov't of USA (at least) has made all tv's encrypt signals as well as dvd/hd dvd/BD ROM players. By encrypting the signals, they will attempt to defeat illegal copying. The Blu-Ray disks (at least) will carry a firmware that updates your player *if* you have played a copyied disk which will disable it until you call for support of the player. This will happen whether you purchased and backed up or ripped it illegally. Tell me, what is so consumer friendly about that? None of them have consumers in their best interest. It's all about money. Don't buy it, Don't watch it. Life is more than watching movies, surfing the internet and playing games. Go outside and play or travel. There are many things better than sitting on a couch that don't cost near as much.

Score: 0

By Doodlepants

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 7:47 AM

Without neither HD-DVD or Blu Ray, The Xbox360 is already OLD technology. Capacity to play HD movies... but no support unless you stream from another computer, THATS rubbish.

Score: 0

By Mr Opinion :)

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 11:25 PM

Hey Bill, what about Windows forcing me to buy a new copy when I update my PC? How "consumer-friendly" is that?
Hypocrite!

Score: 0

By shy_one

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 11:43 PM

How does he force you to buy a new copy of windows when you buy a new PC when it's the computer makers that buy it and put it together as part of the packaged deal if you don't like it build your own then you can choose to buy it or run linux.

He isnt forcing you to do anything.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 6:27 AM

I suppose you've never heard of product activation? Or do you still use Win 98?

Score: 0

By Scary Guy

posted Oct 18, 2005 - 12:41 AM

I disagree. If you want to do business with computers you need compatability. The girl who does fliers does them in Microsoft Publisher format, which is stupid. I use another piece of software that cannot read them. Both run under Windows and only under windows. When windows stops supporting it's older operating systems and new software requires the new OS to operate properly, you get left in the dust. To have that application support you must upgrade.

Most companies however force you to buy the upgrade when switching major version numbers so his point is moot anyhow.

However your point about "build your own or buy linux" is even worse. Maybe he's forced to use it for compatability reasons. Also telling someone to build their own OS is like telling someone to build a house. It's not an easy thing to do and I doubt he's one of the few with such skills.

Score: 0

By aretzios

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 1:52 AM

Well, compatibility does mean specific choices are to some degree imposed. If Linux was the universal standard, I am sure that many would be b****ing about it as they now whine about Windows. One does not have to buy a new copy of Windows when one upgrades their machine, this is just a fallacy. One needs to reactivate the Win XP copy, not buy another one. I am sure that there are real issues with Microsoft but this is not one of them

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

edited Oct 19, 2005 - 4:41 PM

Microsoft does not want yuu to move your copy of the OS from one machine to a new one. Their stated policy is that you need another copy of the OS.

Score: 0

By shy_one

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 3:56 AM

I think you ment to write build their own PC:)

Some valid points there about compatability i will agree.

As far as builing your own PC goes parts makers are learning to include detailed instructions with lots of pictures to help make it easy not to mention many places will do it for you for a small fee and a few not many but a few will even install linux for you.

Then again his post could mean a couple of things

1. He buys boxed computers
2. He changes a bunch of hardware and does a fresh install and windows won't validate and hasn't figured out to call microsoft to fix the problem.
3.Just trolling.

Score: 0

By aretzios

posted Oct 18, 2005 - 1:58 PM

Even if you buy a boxed system and you think that you have a valid Windows license and you are willing to retire the old system, then you do not have to buy a brand new copy of Windows. In fact, a number of manufacturers, including Dell, would be happy to sell to anybody a "clean" system without any OS installed.

I think that people are not fully aware of their options or they are just trolling, as you did mention.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

edited Oct 19, 2005 - 4:42 PM

Many OEM copies of Windows contain an embedded "software tatoo" that reads a serial number embedded in the non-upgradable portion of the BIOS and will not install on any machine that does not contain the original motherboard they were sold with. This appears to be the trend among the large makers of boxed systems, at least in certain lines (the consumer ones).

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 8:53 PM

Any DRM is anti-consumer as far as I'm concerned. It exists to limit or complicate the ability to copy - music/movies/photos...

I have a portable music/movie/photo/text player and do not want to fight things that i've paid for just to make them compatable.

Score: 0

By drumcat

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 7:04 PM

It's very simple folks. I'm not buying HD-DVD or Blu-Ray until:

1) It's an industry standard
2) It's not impossible to rip
3) It's a practical device; i.e. the box is well designed.

I think Bill is right on this one. I think you're going to start seeing PVR's "rent" movies in the Netflix style. You download them over broadband, store them on a drive, and destroy them to get a new download.

Expect HBO to jump all over this. They're in the Comcast OnDemand thing, and I'd imagine that a network like that can see the end down the tunnel if they don't learn to deliver in that new way. They figured it out in the 70's, and they'll be the forefront again.

Score: 0

By Prodiniz

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 7:07 PM

Regardless of what you might think about DRM, Blu-Ray, or HD, Bill made an underlying comment far more important, "Gates also questioned how much next-gen DVD formats will even matter".

Fact of the matter is DVD and CD type medias in the future may very well only be used for commercial purposes only. I currently use a 80GB portable USB HD. It's about the size of one of the Motorola Razor cell phone. So what happens when we start seeing more USB accepting TVs, DVD Players, etc? Exactly, it won't really matter if you can store 50GB on one disc. You can just pop in a USB HD and stream your movies, music, whatever straight to the output device.

As digital media becomes more dominant everything has been/is leaning more towards one -unit digital data storage. It's only a matter of time till we see people carrying a portable HD to plug into their cars, TVs, computers. I mention USB only because it's currently the best plug n' play standard we have. That could very well change to something better and faster too.

Truth be told, Disc/Tape media is going downhill and as I said before may possibly only be used for initial distribution by companies, but I doubt will be used by the masses in the future.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 6:51 AM

I seriously doubt that most people will want to replace their TV because their computer won't boot or because their stereo rattles. Yes, there will be all-in-one devices, but their appeal will be limited to the college dorm set and people stuck in extremely tiny apartments and residence hotels. Also, companies that do a good job with video frequently do a terrible job with audio and very few people would buy a computer made by either. Most computers still have horrible sound, even though decent sound cards and speakers are available. What we are likely to see is the control center, i.e. the preamp/switcher/tuner, will become computerized, but the computer will be specialized and unsuitable for general computational functions, similar to the embedded linux system in a TIVO. The OS will be locked down and inaccessable to the average user.

Score: 0

By Neoprimal

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 6:13 PM

Some of you are so dense. DRM only seems to negatively affect thieves. I'm all for it - but I'm not for it if for instance, I can't stream my DVD to my PC, or through my network because of their DRM scheme. That's what he's talking about. It's Anti-Consumer meaning it limits you, THE OWNER of the product to THEIR specifications. I love the capabilities but what's the sense if, say I get a blu ray burner, burn 50 gigs of software to it, but then have to take it to 100 computers in order to use the software on it (since it can't be streamed through a network).
This has nothing to do with the Xbox and the PS3. He's just stating one of the reasons MS decided to go with HD, rather than Blu.
And I don't get how anyone can call DRM anti-consumer? Look at it from the other side of the looking glass - would you like it if 10 million people loved your work, but only 1 million purchased it because the other 9 stole it? You not only hurt the artists/actors but everyone involved. DRM is simply a way for technology to help physically protect intellectual property. You wouldn't buy a single mp3 if downloads were legal. So yeah, work hard to make a product that people like, and then have trailer park high school drop out cousin boinking people with a computer steal your album/movie and then complain that it's illegal to do so. Ugh...

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 4:59 PM

I personally know of a case where a person purchased a $1200.00 audio editing program after downloading a cracked copy to try it out. Before downloading said copy he would never have even considered purchasing such an expensive program.

The truth is that piracy is good free advertising if the product is of good quality, regardless of what it is - software, music, or video. It only hurts the sales of inferior junk that should never have been released to begin with.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

edited Oct 19, 2005 - 5:02 PM

(response to Neoprimal)

Wrong. DRM does not limit pirates (what you refer to as "thieves") They simply used cracked versions with the DRM disabled. DRM only really impacts the honest straight arrow user who buys into all the industry propaganda. I have known people who will buy a legit copy of a program but actually run a cracked version just to be free of the negative effects of the protection. By criminalizing software cracking the government has done all users a huge disservice. The pirates are the ones least affected.

Score: 0

By everygamer

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 10:36 AM

I think the problem is this. DRM is an over-reaction by the media industry because of the Napster/MP3 music revolution. I large number of studies of the late 90's when Napster was being used by 30+ million people to download music shows the music industry did not loose any money, in fact their sales were higher and were still showing growth. Napster pushed music out to a large community of people who usually would never even buy music in the first place. Thus they listened to more, found music they really liked, and then would actually buy the CD's. Napster was actually helping the music industry. The problem is, the music industry did not control Napster.

We are now seeing the same thing with Movies. The sad thing is, the number of consumers who have the technical knowledge, software tools and patience to download/rip movies is such a small minority that DRM is basically a waste of money and time. But the industry is paralized by the fear that they are going to loose money. They site the decrease in movie ticket sales too people downloading, instead of looking at the soaring ticket prices as the root of the problem. Poeple would not download, if it didnt cost $10+ to see a movie in a theater these days. Ticket prices rise, people then start picking fewer movies to see over the year, because of the cost, less tickets are sold.

I have more than enough knowledge to rip/download movies. I don't because it takes just as long to rip a movie as to watch it, and even longer to download it. I don't want to watse my time waiting. In the past I have gone out of my way to see every summer blockbuster when they are released. Now I just wait for them to come out on DVD and get it through Netflix on my HDTV. Even though I said I dont want to wait, and I have to wait a few months for a new movie to hit DVD, I am not waiting to watch a movie in my living room. At any given time I have 2-3 movies I have not seen sitting on my table wating to be watched. I save hundreds of dollars a year, and see more movies, what else could a consumer ask for.

Score: 0

By tipsyboy

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 6:43 PM

Yeah - and go on forcing the consumer to buy new disk drives, new graphic cards, new displays and let them on top of all that pay for my costs of development as well. Not to speak of a needed new OS - VISTA, of course . . .

This is all ridiculous: HDMI has been claimed to be broken by a guy in the Netherlands in 2001 (HALE2001) - Niels Ferguson. He said he would need 50 players and four computers and about two weeks to break it.

Good God! Go and learn about what you're commenting on beforehand

Ugh . . .

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By erwinb

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 6:06 PM

I don't consider MS to be the king of DRM, I bet there are more illegal versions of Windows on this planet than illegal copies of any other movie or game.
I don't see the link between commenting on the blue-ray DRM and the PS3. If I would want to bash the PS3. The PS3 will most likely be the most compatible blue-ray player available.

Not that I'm an MS fan. their software is mediocre, and they charge ridiculous money for their crap. However Bill's perception/vision on the market is usually quite okay.

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By Mark Gillespie

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 5:28 PM

Bill: "Hmm, OK boys what can we say to damage Blu-Ray and thus Sony's PS3? Lets spout some stuff about DRM on Blu-Ray, even thou we are the kings of DRM."

Seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.. Nothing more than a thinly guised PS3 bash. They are really scared of Sony and the Playstation might, or perhaps they know how poor the 360 is gonna be...

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By blaxpear

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 5:22 PM

Let Time exhibits show that all DRM, proprietary formats, and all other efforts as such in this industry have never survived widespread consumer choice. Regardless of how many collaborations, meetings, contracts, etc.

Consumers value convenience and if they cannot break Blue-Ray to fit their needs, they will forget about it. Just like most things "Sony" it looks destined to be nothing more than a niche market... think MemoryStick, BetaVHS, UMD, etc, etc...

The market will have the final say.

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By bourgeoisdude

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 5:10 PM

It has little to do with copy protection--it's 1. Compatability, 2. Expense, and 3. Deployment. HD-DVD is coming before Blu-ray, blu-ray costs nearly twice as much *PER DISC*, and blu-ray compatability will suck since it will depend so much on firmware to match. I still think Blu-Ray won't make it--sony formats rarely do. Still--technology is so darn unpredictable, only time will tell.

Score: 0

By tipsyboy

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 6:27 PM

" it will depend so much on firmware to match" - well, dude, you seem to know not much about HD-DVD protection.

You got the same in that technology: firmware will play one of the important parts in that protection too. Have a look at www.aacsla.org and see that their efforts are pretty recondite - but that goes for both BD and HD DVD. They all will bring the consumer non mature solutions, because of their stupid tech-war. And the costs for all the development the consumer will have to pay for, of course. He will need new HDCP capable graphic cards, new disk drive(s), and new displays - cause all this will be included in the new protection systems.

For the engineer the BD is the better solution, while the merchant will certainly choose the HD DVD. BD has more storage capabilities and higher transfer rates - but as the production costs are higher, they will certainly have not much of a bite of the markets.

Anyway - both protection systems deal with the consumer possibly ending up with buying hardware that won't play HD content, if it will play at all.

This is the one step too far in any of these upcoming technologies. Freedom seems to be just applicable to what big business declares it to be. In reality the new technology shows what the remains of the human society will end up with: TYRANNY, to what ever aspect of life you look.

And don't forget: the more technology you use, the more they have you under their thumbs.

Score: 0

By erwinb

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 5:03 PM

I think Bill has a point.
If I interpret the story correct, the blueray format has the DRM protection integrated in such a way that the content can not be streamed via IP.
Bill Gates and many others believe that content can be much more valuable if it can be distributed via networks. For example to other players in your household. The way they see the Xbox as a general purpose device to 'play' content (games but also movies, music etc) from a (maybe locally) centralized server is considered added value. If blueray prevents this, then it prevents a potential future market from happening. It seems that Bill Gates thinks that this is a big market, and when it comes to market valuation, he hasn't been wrong that much in the past.
(I would be a consumer in the market described above).

Score: 0

By Bugbite

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 7:03 AM

But you can stream Blu-Ray over a local network. This was mentioned to counteract the rubbish when Gates opened his big Fud-cracking mouth to eliminate interest in the product.

I tell you, I am still amazed that so many people still cling to Microsoft FUD. You are supposed to be technologists yet you fail to investigate!

Also, Microsofts DRM can be just as restrictive as anything Blu-Ray creates.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

edited Oct 19, 2005 - 11:12 AM

Agree with that too. No matter your opinion of Bill or Microsoft, Gates isn't a 'Johny come lately' folks--he knows what he's talking about here.

EDIT: BTW Bug, me saying Bill isn't a Johny come lately doesn't mean I have blind faith in what the guy says--I checked the facts and now I agree with him. Also one of my points below about the firmware--you are correct. I meant more to imply that Blu-Ray will constantly update firmware to prevent any "new attempts to copy protected material". Saying that Blu-Ray requires compatible firmware is not a false statement, though I didn't realize HD-DVD would have the same restrictions when I made the statement.

Score: 0

By crashoverride

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 11:26 PM

Translation, he's not willing to feed money to the company that competes with his beloved XBOX. That's all their is to it.

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By Maxwolf

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 3:16 PM

If someone can make copy protection then I don't care what anyone says you can always tear it back down. Screw the MPAA and the RIAA.

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By zridling

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 3:16 PM

Lots of worry for nothing. Blu-ray's consortium only needs to write good drivers and sell their hardware and discs cheap, and the market will take care of the rest. That is, if they're serious about competing beyond just getting Microsoft's contract.

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By Adrian79

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 3:12 PM

let's just hope that no matter what happens there will be some genius hacker that will create another "anydvd" type of thing ;-)

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By JacenSolo

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 3:01 PM

All DRMs are anti-consumer, your point?

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 5:59 PM

Not true. What he is saying is the protection scheme benefits the movie company to protect their movie, doesn't matter if it works well for the customer or not. DiVx that came out a few years ago, was also anti-customer. It required you to pay for movie for a limited period, then resubscribe, but only if the service was available as a dial-up. If you couldn't get the unit to dial or if the service happened to be down, the customer was inconvenienced. That is what is meant by "anti-consumer"

Blue ray will be protection centric and will not be user friendly. That's what the problem is. You don't care, because you haven't used it yet. HDDVD will be much more user friendly.

Sony has a long standing tradition of proprietary formats which are not user friendly, betamax, magicgate.. Sony is interested in security, not whether its easy for the user.

Score: 0

By JacenSolo

posted Oct 18, 2005 - 3:59 PM

I don't care about protection. I want to be able to create backups of my movies/games/audio. I don't want to have to go the long way around, just to use my RIGHT to create a backup.

Score: 0

By Bugbite

posted Oct 18, 2005 - 11:19 AM

So, have you used HDDVD? NO! So how can you say that it will be more user friendly. You can't. You are just agreeing with FUD!

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By bourgeoisdude

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 11:15 AM

That I can agree with. The final format is not out yet so heck, Blu-Ray could cancel using the DRM copy protection at the last minute anyway (not that I think they will).

Score: 0

By everygamer

posted Oct 18, 2005 - 10:47 AM

The movie industry doesnt really need to protect their movies. Their spending more money fighting piracy than piracy looses them in the first place. 95% of people would rather drop the extra cash to see something right away, then have to wait for software to rip/download it.

Has anyone ever thought to look at the root of the problem. The more it costs to buy a ticket, the more likely people will download a bootleg. The more it costs to buy a DVD, the more likely someone will borrow it from a friend to rip it to a new disc. Maybe the industry needs to really re-evalutae their pricing schemes.

Would you download or buy a bootleg if you could stream a new release movie the day it was released to your TV at home if it only cost you $2-$3. If you cut out the manufacturing, shipping, storage, materials, etc invoived with a physical product like a DVD, all of those costs are gone. One file could feed millions, and then its just bandwidth which is very cheep since they overbuilt the fiber networks in the late 90's.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 4:49 PM

Amen!

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By kholdstare

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 2:39 PM

i always though HD-DVD was the worst in anti-piracy. I heard that the HD-DVD players may need to be connected to a internet connection or phoneline to authenticate the DVD's but do not know if they will go threw with that. I hope not

Score: 0

By itanshi

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 2:20 PM

streamed...direct...nintendo revolution? yeah revolution does this allready

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By elftyrrell

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 2:16 PM

Well... I guess it takes one to know one. Bill Gates ought to know a lot about anti-consumers.

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By Homa

edited Oct 17, 2005 - 9:30 PM

lol, exactly.

When I see this, the only thing come put to my mind is that this is just a marketing speak, Gates used the word "Anti-Consumer" on Blu-Ray to make people turn away from Blu-Ray and favor HD, for XBox Sales.

Instead of saying "Ani-Consumer", you can always say "Artist Friendly"

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 7:16 AM

Artist friendly? SAYS WHO? The majority of artists (other than a few high profile clowns) are opposed to the DRM schemes applied to their work. Artists want to expand their fan base. DRM works in opposition to this. Funny thing - the only artists you see supporting DRM (Gartyh Brooks, Metallica, et al.) are those who are so big that their fan base can't grow any bigger - the upcoming artists - the ones the industry CLAIM to be protecting - are generally opposed to it as a limiting factor on their careers. The only ones the RIAA and MPAA are trying to protect are themselves.

Score: 0

By DeadFly

posted Oct 17, 2005 - 2:15 PM

I would read this as meaning that the DRM scheme isn't useful for Microsoft to protect their software from priacy.

Score: 0

By Ivan Overkill

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 4:51 PM

In reality, no DRM is useful for protecting anything.

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By Hengest

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 5:22 AM

I doubt it would be considering that the blue ray DRM is for protecting content like movies etc., and _not_ software.

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By Solymnar

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 9:11 AM

Blu will go the way of Betamax.

In fact it may not get that far. Ignor the anti consumer bit and consider instead that while HD-DVD is backwards compatible on DVD players (thus both forms of content can be written on an HD-DVD) it also has proven to require minimal modifications to fab lines in order to produce HD-DVDs as well.

On top of that HD-DVD has already proven their capabilities in finished products.

Blu by comparison is a joke. It would require MASSIVE modifications to a fab in order to produce them. And like every other proprietary pice of crap that sony makes (memory sticks, betamax, minidisc) is not backwards compatible or compatible period with anything other than a blu ray player with blu ray media format.

But the real kicker is IT DOESN"T WORK!!! They have yet to make a physical disc that can do what their paper figures suggest it can do. That's the biggest reason microsoft and intel said screw blu. They can only get rudimentary preformance on blu ray discs, no where close to the advertised specs on paper. HD-DVD by comparison has already surpassed it's paper specs on a real physical finished product.

If you were investing...would you invest in figures on a sheet of paper? Or would you invest in a proven product?

Enough said.

Screw blu and sony's latest attempt for more proprietary bull crap.

Score: 0

By aguilpa1

edited Oct 18, 2005 - 10:26 AM

Blu Pink Brown whats the diff, pirates will have a work around quicker than you can blow your nose thats a given.

All these encryption algorithm, blocks and shields up do nothing but screw with the common man who actually bought the stuff.

Statistics of pirated stuff are blown outta whack anyway. It takes skills to get hacked products to work, movies, games whatever, the average Joe can't do it or to lazy to try.

The average hacker won't hurt your bottom line its the institional pirates in Eastern block or Asia that hack and distribute to the average Joe that hurts. Hit them, not your common guy.

These people are all wrong.

Score: 0

By jerrico

posted Oct 19, 2005 - 2:26 AM

i like the idea of bluray just because it stores more.

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