This is great! Look at everbody just plain out smart each other for there seperate cases. Bravo America, and the rest for showing we can all come together and argue about something so trivial and meaningless like this; but not for something of importance like why do are the French such b****es and refuse to protect there own? Why is gas still $2.40 when we are consuming less right now? Doent that seem more important?

P2P would be great if people who used it only shared their personal files... such as their photos they took with their digital camera, or a movie they took with their digital camera, maybe they have some word documents they want to share, or maybe they wrote a few good jokes... or maybe they play an instrument and recorded it and want to share that too. I'm willing to bet $5 bucks that 95% - 98% of the people who are using P2P programs are not using the P2P programs to share these kind of files no they are actually sharing the music and other files that are copy right files, so in effect the folks who actually ruined it are the actual users of the programs.

So a P2P is responsible for what their users do.. Ok that seems legitimate, however now that this has been done lets look at more revelant issues.

-Gun manufacturers are now responsible for Shootings causing death/robberies.
-Knife manufacturers now have the same problem.
-Automobile manufacturers are now responsible for drunk drivers
-Electronics manufacturers (those that make video cameras) are now to be held liable for pirating movies.

Wow there's gonna be good money to be made if you are a lawyer.

well, if you look at limewire, atleast they're attempting to make it as legal as possible. Limewire has made it so they cannot be liable. Limewire stats that downloading unlicenced music, movies, software etc is ILLEGAL and not too unless you own a licence! whereas grokster was not, they did not take any action what so ever to tell their users that this program may only be used for downloading items that they own licences for. I have Limewire myself, I have downloaded many songs BUT the songs I have downloaded I own the CDs, You see I like to leave my CDs in my car, but I want somthing to listen to inside of my house, so rather than taking my CDs in and out of my car everytime I go somewhere or come home, I downloaded the songs onto my computer so I can listen to the songs, but this is perfectly legal because I own the right to the music I have downloaded, but I have the right to share the music I downloaded with other users that also own the right to download the music. if someone that doesn't have the licence for a song they download from me, I am unaware of this, so I cannot be held liable, because as far as I know they own a licence.

Gun Manufactures - Guns may be used for hunting and self defence purposes only, any other use is unlawful and any other use for the weapon is illegal and the user may be put in prision

Knife Manufactures - Hello, how are we suppose to cut our steak? not their fault the users used it to stab someone! this is common sence!

Automobile Manufacturers - They cannot be held liable in the first place, Alcohol companies on the other hand can be held liable, BUT Alcohol companies warn their customers not to drive while drinking, if you do so it's your own risk (you sign that agreement when you purchase the drinks)

Electronics Manufacturers - Same thing, they state in the manuals that the purchase you made may not be used to illegally copy material. hence they cannot be held liable.

Now there are ways to sue, like the McDonalds suit about the hott coffee, yeah it's common sence, BUT the company should have used a warning label. McDonalds again, on the "FAT" lawsuit, yeah this is stupid and common sence, but there are stupid people out there with no common sence that need to be notified :P

everyone is out there to make money, there are people out there who earn it the wrong way and I hope the burn in hell :)

what would happen if say MS reduced their prices to and acceptable levels where everyone can afford to buy it legal ..not some stupid price of X hundred pounds

even go down the shareware prinsipile of once bought its free for life theirs no upgrade
fees every year or so .... put that in your pipe and smoke it maniakmx3

There ARE other options to Microsoft Office Pro, Like the basic editon which is about $169 vs $300, and there are freeware office programs outthere, no one says that you HAVE to use MS Office, but Microsoft is making office for a profit, not for you to download or steal, it's in the pipe, and it's smoked :)

like the way things are going, the next thing you know, you'll be calling multiplayer gaming "gang rape" since file sharing is labelled here as stealing or was it copyrighted files sharing! huh!

Filesharing is illegal, like PC_Tool posted the link for internet crimes. How could MP Gaming be "gang rape" ? I play CS, CS:S, HL:2 Deathmatch, BF2, Guildwars, WoW, and more! I enjoy it! there have been times that in a PVP Game that I have been ganged on, but it's all in fun and gaming! but atleast I PAYED for my games :)

ok...File sharing IS Stealing. If I buy a copy a Microsoft Office 2003, and let 10,000 other people install it on their machines, that's over $300,000 Microsoft loses! Software, music, and movie companies are here to make a profit, if file sharing wasn't illegal, then how would the companies make a profit? I mean hell, that would mean 1 person can buy a DVD and redistribute it around the world, that means the millions of dollars spend on making that movie, the company only made $14.99...That's a pretty big loss! I am a PC Technician, apart of the money my company makes is selling software such as microsoft products. I am losing money every day because a customer walks in and asks "How much is Office 2003 Pro?" "Oh about $300" then the customer laughs at me and says "hell, I'll just download it" boom, there goes my profit on the software! I have to work for my money, so I can buy the things I need, if everyone just goes off and shares it for free, I could go out of business, then I'll be at your doorstep asking you for a "copy" of some food because I can't afford to feed myself because of you a******s that steal from me! BOO ON YOU!

Actually M$ would lose 3Million for 10,000 copy's.... Only in the back alleys of HK will you find a $30 copy of Office... I hope your company isn't selling counterfeit software...that too is stealing you see.

My company would NEVER sell illegal software, I order everything through pcwholesale or our local wholesaler Dramen. We are not theives, and we do not encourage piracy. BUT to those of my customers who can't afford to spend $300 of Office Pro, or even $50 for PC-Cillin Internet Security, I direct them to places where they can obtain decent freeware, such as Free Office, AVG FreeAV or even Microsofts Antispyware Beta1. These programs work just as good as the ones you spend majior $$ on, you just don't get the support. oh and sorry for my mis-calculation, yeah it is 3million

I am Italian. You knee-jerk democratic Americans are responsible for killing the golden goose. Your fascist Supreme Court, interest groups like the RIAA and MPAA are mere reflections of your impotence as a people to speak up against blatant violations of your rights. Where is the spirit of 1776 ? I visit NEW YORK often. Why am I able to purchase any weapon illegally ? P2P will soon be extinct. Where lies the hypocracy? When will the RIAA realize that people who contributed to P2P also bought the music ? Why do you Americans download CD's at such outrageous prices from so called legal sources ? No European worth his salt would do so. When I buy a CD or any software I share them with my friends . In turn they share . Thus a network is created.
This is the reason the European Union is fighting Microsoft.When we do not agree with government policies we act. I hope some of your readers have been following the events in France ? I doubt it their comments are so disingeneous. They are such children of their age . Computer literate but socially without a cause.

"...blatant violations of your rights"

What rights do you have to steal music? If you try to stop me stealing your car, are you violating my rights? No matter what country you're in (I'm not from the US by the way) you have no right to steal music.

Shut up.

I am sick of people calling file sharing stealing. In programming terms:
Copyright_violation != stealing
Filesharing is breaking the law but it is the same way as if you would copy your family photo without permission of the photographer. It is NOT stealing. Filesharing got referred to as stealing by the greedy RIAA because it just sounds worse than copyright infringement.

Take heart, my friend the Italian, some Americans do follow the events in France. Unfortunately, our media has used the opportunity to criticize the "terrorist" Muslims, saying it is the beginning of a new jihad. They dont want to portray the events as the class conflict it really is.

Its not that its "right to steal" as it is just to disobey an outrageous law or sequence of court rulings. The record companies have been accussed of price fixing of CDs in the past; this goes against the capitalism America so loves.

A few years later, prices are back up where they were before the court settlements about price fixing. Since the consumers who were gouged in the first place did not receive their money back from the price-fixing scandals, it is their RIGHT, their OBLIGATION, and their DUTY to retaliate against the record industry.

How's she goin eh? Can't say as I agree with your thoughts there John and I am Canadian. I personally have no problem with private users sharing their private work amounst themselves... but it is a completely different story when you start sharing someones work that is not yours to share. If a man worked hard on his/her programs/movies or what have you, they have the right to be paid, and if you can't afford it than you should have to wait until you can.

I'd like to have a brand new Jeep but I can't because I can't afford it and it's not like I can run down to the local car dealer and say hay man give me a copy of that would ya...?

You work you get paid for it, you can't just walk into any old store and start pocketing everything you want... and it's the same way online. Unless otherwise stated as Freeware you must pay up or not use it. Makes very good since. I'd like to see you work for a week or so and than have you employer tell you that you worked for free for the week! Bet that would go over well...?

Here in Canada we are also watching the events in France... a bunch of young puppies with nothing better to do. And their whole point???? Go forth and let the dogs of war reek havoc! Oh now that's a good idea - Not!

"When will the RIAA realize that people who contributed to P2P also bought the music ?"

I'm sure they do. They're just not all that happy with them for sharing that music with 10000 others.

"Why do you Americans download CD's at such outrageous prices from so called legal sources ?"

Those of us who do, probably do so because we feel personally responsible for the implications and consequences of our actions.

"When I buy a CD or any software I share them with my friends . In turn they share . Thus a network is created."

And thus the artist loses any possibility of income from those who copied it from you.

"This is the reason the European Union is fighting Microsoft."

Hey, we fought them too. Ages ago. Nice of you to finally catch up.

"I hope some of your readers have been following the events in France ? I doubt it their comments are so disingeneous."

The riots, Looting, Death-tolls? Yeah, but I can only take so much idiocy.

"socially without a cause."

Are you implying your ethics of "sharing" are morally superior to say, someone who pays for what they buy anmd expects others to do the same?

God forbid we should expect anyone else to conduct themselves in a personally responsible fashion instead of blaming their flaws on "Society" or "Corporation Such-and-such".

Apparently, the ability to think outside one's own narrow view of society, or right and wrong, apply all over the world and not just the USA. That sucks. I was hoping there'd be some oasis of sanity out there somewhere.

*sigh*

Theft of Intelectual property is stealing.

http://www.usdoj.gov/cri...cybercrime/17-18red.htm

The legal ramifications are different, the term in question has been expanded.

Isn't it great that language can evolve?

Your comments sound schizophrenic to say the least. Knee-jerk Democratic Fascists? Huh? "No European worth his salt" wants to legally pay for music by your account. Interesting...Look do us all a favor pal, and stay in Italy. I don't like the idea of a hothead like you being in the position of purchasing guns, illegally or otherwise.

I wonder how the RIAA will divide that $50 mill up amungst their top dogs.... the damn rich keep getting richer....

I wish they would channel the time and resources into solving world hunger or health care. The "establishment" is only upset because it doesn't have a finger in the pie. If P2P networks paid a tax to the goverment for every kb you would be legally obliged to pirate.

I wish there was a smiley for being violently ill.

Just another example of how corporate America wins every time.

1. Cigarettes: absolutely no good use, slowly kills people and the people around them; addictive - completely legal!
2. Alcohol: medical use, addictive and completely legal to drink in obsessive amounts, enough to make you do really stupid things, kill someone else, or kill yourself - completely legal!
3. Guns: 5 inches of death - Legal, as long as you have a license to kill.

Then we have, Peer to peer, a great tool for new and emerging artists as well as a portal for companies to distribute their software without incurring the costs of hosting various websites, paying webmasters, paying admins, etc., but rendered illegal because people use it to steal movies and music.....I guarantee bittorrent is next.

Ofcourse, people use guns to kill other people, they also use vehicles to kill people, smokesticks also kill people - but alas, they're all completely legal...I mean, stealing is worth than killing someone else, right?

There's something wrong with the world.

Bravo, I heartily agree with you, something I've been thinking all along. I'm waiting on Limewire to be shut down now.

Killing someone while drunk = Prison, huge fines.

Using P2P legally = No fine, no jail time, but you have to switch when they close one down due to abuse by pirates.

Yeah, I can definately see the comparison there.

Not.

LimeWire isn't a network, moron...
Though, I do hate LimeWire.

I never said it was, b/c I know its not a network, I just simply stated that I believed it would be shut down as well.

I'll spell it out for you....I should have done that before because some people are bound to be a little slow.

Bars are not responsible for selling alcohol to the wrong people, as long as they are within age limites.
Shops/stores are not responsible for selling cigarettes to people within age limits also (yet, they are proven deadly/lethal)
Gun shops are not responsible for selling guns to someone who has a license, who then takes it home and murders his wife and kids.

Therefore, why is Grokster held responsible for pirates using it to download music and movies.

Get it now?

Age limits (x2)
License (x1)

We're assuming as a society, that folks at these ages can behave responsibly. There's no such assumption made about P2P users.

By your comparison, you are saying there should be?

"Must be 18 years old with an IQ above 13 to use."

Yeah, I likey.

To bad you can't quantify ethical and moral standards, or the capacity for responsibility of an individual.

Ok, so that's just it....if you're going to assume this and that, then how do you give these places/items and people, the shadow of the doubt and then completely nullify that when it comes to the people who are using P2P programs? Not to mention that it still makes no sense, since some 12 year olds have more common sense and intelligence than 21 year olds, and some of the people who get licenses - I mean, REALLY...do I need to go on?

It's just a very 1 sided decision, that's all...and many people know it. Moral and Ethical standards aside, I think everyone can appreciate that.
It boils down to: Once the right person is getting money - It's A-OK
Once the 'right' person is losing money, or the 'wrong' person is getting it - It's against the law.

On this path, what kind of future do we really have?

And please don't get me wrong, I DO NOT condone the sharing of copyrighted work, it's just the principle I'm talking about here. I just don't think a P2P program IS or SHOULD BE titled as illegal (when there are things like guns, alcohol and cigarettes around), and I think it's unfair that the RIAA and MPAA are getting their way and having them shut down.

I use Yahoo primarily because I'm into trendy music, and find everything there. So this doesn't really affect me. But I can see a couple things happening if we keep going down this road.
1. when all 'illegal' file sharing is shut down. CDs will be 30, DVDs will be 40 and each song will be 2 dollars a pop. The writing's already on the wall.

lmao..

Did I say it was perfect? Yeah, idiots get licenses. Big deal. It ain't fool proof. but it keeps the vast majority of those who should not own guns away from them.

Regardless...

You are right, P2P itself should not be illegal. But when a service, any service, gets abused to such a degree, it needs to be shut-down and re-tuned to make it harder to abuse.

"1. when all 'illegal' file sharing is shut down. CDs will be 30, DVDs will be 40 and each song will be 2 dollars a pop. The writing's already on the wall."

1.) Illegal file-sharing will likely never be shut down. It'd be virtually impossible. But if it were to happen, we'd be back to where we should be with market driven pricing. If it's too expensive, they won't buy it and prices will drop accordingly.

Right now, demand-based pricing for this stuff is off the charts because there's absolutely no way to measure demand when half of the folks getting it are getting it by illegal means.

I'm just curious how they determined that this app was illegal, rather than the users being responsible for their own shared/downloaded content?

It is a tool, how you use it is up to you.

heheh on that note I think there should be more guns in prison... after all, they are the tool used for ther murders. if it werent for the guns, all those murderers in jails wouldnt have committed their specific murders !!

That's about the mentality of those headhunting the applications rather than those responsible :)

Wow, a network actually worth shutting down.

w00t

Man, they closed another file-sharing network. Do you realize that if there wasnt any private property we wouldnt have this issue? Intellectual property should just mean that we make sure that when the file is traded, it has the proper title and production information attached to it. Then no one would get sued and the lawyers might have to do something more valuable to society to earn their daily bread.

Say you develop some great program... and I give it a try think it's a great program too, I buy a copy from you for say $100 bucks, I turn around and give it out to a bunch of my buddies... wouldn't that just tick you off?

No, if I make a great program and share it and you share your great programs with me, then there isnt a problem. Just so long as the people you give it to know that my great program came from me and your great programs came from you.
The whole point is that everyone contributes what they have, no one takes more than they need or reasonably want, and then everyone HAS instead of dividing society into the HAVES and HAVE NOTS.
Besides, there are many many people working in the movie studios. Those who make profits off those movies are stealing from the workers themselves. I mean, the stage crews didnt see that money, now did they? Some exec who didnt work pocketed it all.

And no-one would ever make great programs...

See, unfortunately, if you aren;t making money, you generally don't have access to things like food, clean water...computers.

Ya need money for those things. Writing "really great" programs takes a boatload of time. How would you propose to make money while doing this for nothing?

Just doesn't work that way, my friend.

So beautifully said, brings a tear to my eye. Dude I'm gonna download and share the next 300 Million $$ blockbuster hollywood film at full bandwidth (6Mbps) for 10 days straight just for you!!

Given how the people who actually keep this country running make minimal wage and dont seem to be able to make much money, while those who do hardly anything make tons of money, Im surprised the country is still running.

The programmer contributes great programs to society to help get office tasks, data analysis, and other things done. If he contributes his products for "free", as the internet makes increasingly more likely, then others will have to contribute their goods and services for "free". I put free within the quotation marks because they get something for their work, no one in the system actually gives away what they create for free and receives nothing in return. Its just there arent any profits because that would be stealing from the laborers and overcharging other laborers.

You're right, it doesnt work this way, but it could and should. And the internet is an integral part of this future system.

I have no objection to a true communist ideal. The problem is that it is simply not possible to achieve.

Ideals are great, but are limited to flights of fancy and not relevant in arguing facts.

An ideal not possible to achieve. I believe the almighty Greeks said something similar about dreaming of flight.

The only thing that prevents the realization of such ideals is people's comfort and belief that things should stay as they are. And that some people fail to see how a greater mass of people suffer to maintain their standard of living.

In feudal times, people thought the feudal economic system was the best. Then with the advent of industrialization people thought capitalism was best. Now we have a new invention, the internet, which allows for an immense exchange of information. Might a new technology force a change in the economic systems governing the world and the governments themselves? Maybe...the steam engine sure did.

As living entities we obey natural laws, and survival depends on our ability to ADAPT to new situations. Those who fail to do so, dont survive to tell about it.

Not really. The human species is simply not capable of it at this point. I'm not saying our ability to use use logic won't increase with time and evolution, but as it stands right now, it is completely impossible.

Take a look around you. If you can point out 5 people who would survive, keep their wits intact, and be able to function in such a society, you are in a much better place than I.

And
Another one bytes the dust! Another one bytes the dust!

This is just another useless effort by the riaa to pound there chest and yell. USE LIMEWIRE. This is a great p2p and will soon be gone. Remember we all have the right to do with OUR BOUGHT PROPERTY as WE see fit. If we want to put a song or movie or a (*^(* pic, we have the !@#$ right TOO!

Limewire still has spyware, does it not? (maybe they quit, I really want to know). As for the property thing...nevermind, I wont even bother wasting my time arguing with you.

The regular version of Limewire as Spyware. The pro version however doesn't. I use pro and find it to be great. You pay for the software.

Actually buddy you don't have the right to do that. Lets take this into consideration.
I joined a band about 3 months ago. We are working on some original music. Lets say when we release an album you say man i love that song gotta have it. So you go and buy the cd. Great. One cd cost you around what 20 bucks canadian. ok far enough. Then your friend asks you for a copy, and then that friend gives his friend a copy. Being a band of four people we make about 3 bucks off the disc, so really we made 3 bucks off 4 discs?... Now do you see the logic in this? I don't.

Thanks
MoRpHeUs2003

And who cares? There are other file-sharing programs out there SIMULAR to Grokster:

www.morpheus.com

Well maybe if I didn't have to buy the same thing a zillion times...
Favorite example: Boston's "Don't Look Back" album.
bought it on 8 track. wore out, bought another. bought 2 of the LP's for the same reason. Bought at least 3 casseste tapes for the same reason. Bought a CD cause wanted the new format. What...you think I'm gonna buy it again? HA! They've been ripping consumers and artists off for years...what comes around, goes around.

Old technology.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter what they say or do. Let's just say the fact is that P2P will outlive the RIAA/MPAA. These acts of desparation will only serve to make it that much sweeter when we all see the day of over 50% "piracy" of all forms of music/film etc.

RI/MPAA: You're the devil and you can't win, it's just not your destiny. Instead, your destiny is to slowly lose profits over the years to the point where you do something SO drastic, that you wind up really fscking sh*t up for yourselves.

Why was "piracy" born? Because people found out at some point that you could download stuff free and just continued to do it? WRONG. That was only a fortunate AFTEREFFECT of the sh*t YOU started with your scumbag business practices and unacceptable greed. Now, we're gonna finish you off like they did to Joe Pesci in Casino. With a g** d*** P2P baseball bat that will mark the end of you.

R.I.P. bia***es.

Wow. Why does this upset you so much? Does it hit a nerve? Grokster was already found liable by the SC back in June (or was it July?) UNANIMOUSLY (9-0 vote), so it was only a matter of time for them to be shutdown. Too bad you didn't read the actual article, as they will continue to use a LEGAL P2P service and THEY THEMSELVES ADMITTED that their old service was illegal.

You shouldn't have to pay any extra money to share data of any kind on a P2P service.

Exactly. Who the hell cares about "legal" P2P services as they're all totally 100% GAY! "Illegal" (using their bs definition) is where it should be because that's the whole appeal of the g** d*** thing, which is "power to the people". The ability to passively make massive slow-moving inhuman faceless evil entities so afraid that they start sueing children, elderly, and even dead people, is a really wholesome and warm feeling.

Makes me feel good everytime I keep my money in my pocket, and make them slowly pay for their greed over the years. Welp, bottom line for me is this: I will continue to help people to learn how to share WHATEVER they want, and give them the tools/knowledge to be able to quickly teach others ways around the neverending technology and legal barriers the RIAA/MPAA keep sprouting like pop-ups gone mad in crappy Internet Explorer.

The futility of what RI/MPAA are doing is just mind-boggling and beyond me. Are they even really making the slightest dent? Sh*t if I know, i'm finding more sites and results every single solitary day I do a search. :: shrugs ::

Correct. So if you want to make a P2P file sharing service that will constantly check to ensure no copyrighted material is flowing through, please do. But herein lies the problem: Grokster KNEW they were used primarily as a portal to share illegally, and it is wrong for them to continue providing their service when they da*n well know that it is being used as such.

To c4p0ne: Argue all you want, Grokster wanted to have illegal P2P sharing, and thought that they could get away with it because of your mentality. They didn't, and all 9 Supreme Court Justices of the United States agreed. Take it up with them (er, the 7 that are still there...)

"The ability to passively make massive slow-moving inhuman faceless evil entities so afraid that they start sueing children, elderly, and even dead people, is a really wholesome and warm feeling."

I think you mean:

"To get what I want for free, regardless of how it affects anyone else, because I can't be bothered to waste my time on such unimportant ethical and moral considerations."

Sharing music using P2P should only be illegal if the music quality is equal to the original CD. When it comes to music, audio quality is the only thing that matters and most people who download a few songs from P2P eventually buy the CD anyways due to the inferior audio quality from P2P.

By the way, the record companies are not losing any money because of P2P and they never have.

That was so yesterday - the world has moved on to other P2P solutions. As long as open source lives there will always be ways to get around DRM and P2P crap. Why do they bother anyway... give the music away...sell the concerts.

never knew they were still around. I though they went under after the big grokster/kazzaa incident a few years back

Even though I never used that service its still a punch in the gut.

so who's left?

Usenet, Bit-torrent, and I'm sure there are other, less popular (less likely to get stomped out by the MPAA/RIAA), solutions.

Though I believe both BT and NNTP will stick around for many years to come, due to their roots/legal usefullness.

BitTorrent usage is being monitored in other countries though. An ISP was taken to court in Australia for not doing enough to stop it's users from downloading illegally using BitTorrent software.

i mean stuff like grokster etc. I find it hard to grab a song on p2ps nowadays. I hear it on the radio and i want to have another family member hear it. mm

some of what i hear is very hard to get to purchase so yeah. I mean, who cares about Ernst Horn?

Well you have...

Emule and Limewire at the moment, Soulseek is still up and running if you are really struggling to find what you want. I see some of the supporting services for emule that you can use to check for fakes etc are down...

As soon as one service is shut the users migrate to another one and that becomes popular and then that gets shut and so on and so on. It's a pain but no big worry as another one will be along shortly.

R.I.P. Gorkster, Kazza, WinMX .......

iTunes, AllofMP3, Usenet....

All of these have good music, in order from most legal to least. (also from most expensive to cheapest, but that's sadly not an issue for most folks here)

There's been like 100 other comments since the one from John_Bedin but that guy is genius!
I'm European (British) and im highly anti-american (kinda stupid saying this on an american site) but its true american people dont take an interest in politics thus they get a really cr**** goverment e.g. the bush administration. Long live Europe!

p.s. if anyone wants a video of george bush looking extremely stupid please email me at jtwithextracheese@gmail.com

That pretty much encompassess any video ever taken of the guy....

I feel bad for ya man. Hating an entire society based on the actions of one or two out-of-control companies is, well....

Just plain sad.