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MS: No Updates for Virtualized Windows

By David Worthington and Nate Mook, BetaNews

February 21, 2005, 2:05 PM

Microsoft's Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) validation initiative has set off a firestorm of protest throughout the open source community after programmers uncovered a special function in the software dedicated to detecting Wine, a compatibility layer for running Windows programs in non-Windows environments.

WGA authentication is set to become mandatory for all non-critical Windows updates starting in the second half of 2005. Customers must run a program that verifies their Windows license, or they will not have access to Windows Update or the Microsoft Download Center.

According to Wine developer Ivan Leo Puoti, Microsoft has implemented "a special function in the program dedicated to detecting Wine. I found that GenuinceCheck.exe checks for the HKLM\SOFTWARE\ Wine\Wine\Config key with a call to the RegOpenKeyExA() function. If the key is present, a message box pops up with en error message." The program then exits immediately, according to Puoti.

Thus far Microsoft has not directly responded to accusations that it may be unfairly targeting Wine, but says the intention of WGA is to reward customers for having fully licensed copies of Windows over other operating systems, which include virtualization software like Wine.

David Lazar, Director for Genuine Windows at Microsoft, told BetaNews, "WGA differentiates the value of genuine versions of Windows XP and Windows 2000 from other operating systems, including virtualized versions of Windows, by giving them access to updates and premium content."

Although any initial impact of Wine's exclusion is minor, as Wine does not require the same patches issued for Windows, the open source community has expressed concern over updates to Microsoft Office. Legitimate copies of Office can be installed on Linux using CodeWeaver's Crossover Office, without requiring a Windows license.

For now, users can download Office updates without WGA authentication from Office Update. But in a January interview with the Microsoft Watch newsletter, Microsoft said it was considering adding Office and other software to the WGA program.

Microsoft's Lazar, however, dismissed the claims. "This is untrue. Microsoft has made no statements whatsoever indicating that. In fact, any user of an Office application, for example, could simply go to the Office Update site, and get the download they need."

"Microsoft says it will leave customers running Office via Wine a loophole: They will make most, if not all, of the Office downloads available to them on the Office Online Web site – and not require them to validate using the Windows Genuine Advantage mechanism to get them," explained Microsoft Watch's Mary Jo Foley.

"But this still does not address why Microsoft is intercepting customers running genuine Microsoft software on non-Windows systems in the first place. If the goal of WGA is to thwart piracy, as Microsoft has stated, why is Microsoft blocking all Wine users in the first place?"

Some Wine users likened the move to Microsoft's alleged plot to give customers the impression that Novell's DR-DOS was incompatible with beta versions Windows 3.1. When Windows 3.1 ran atop DR-DOS instead of the company's own MS-DOS software, users encountered bugs.

Today, over a decade later, open source advocates are fuming about error messages that are seemingly generated simply by the presence of Wine.

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By thepeggasus

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 5:20 PM

Since a specific key is targeted, it is clear that M$ intends to force owners of legally purchased software (i.e. M$ Office) to also own M$ Windows (a sperate product)in order to use their legally purchased software. I can see three potential outcomes 1)Users with another OS may wind up purchasing M$ Windows 2)Users with another OS may quit buying other M$ products 3) or Users may sue M$ for deliberately disabling legally purchased software. Does M$ gain from any of this? Probably only the ire of those who choose not to run M$ Windows in the first place.

Score: 0

By webworm99

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 8:36 PM

The reason Microsoft is blocking wine. Microsoft may be releasing their own Linux. I got this from the grc newsgroups.

(Which, I would like to know how the block is possible if wine is run from Linux?

Score: 0

By nightops

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 9:18 AM

Guys, stop flaming, it serves no purpose. MS is doing what it can to protect it's investment. Do I support MS, no...not really. Do I have geniune MS licenses, yes. Do I have Linux, of course. Which is better, MS or open-source? Open-source. If you don't like the fact that MS is guarding itself (considering 80% of the MS Office installations are illegal, and around 70% of the Windows installations are illegal in the world), then DO NOT USE MS. If you have to use it, then deal with it. Let it go guys, let it go.

Score: 0

By solojunk

edited Aug 2, 2006 - 5:22 PM

(considering 80% of the MS Office installations are illegal, and around 70% of the Windows installations are illegal in the world)

where do these numbers come from? When I see stats like these without references, a big ol' red flag raises.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 4:43 PM

ya, just let it go - dont stand up for what you believe in. Government & companies will just do what they want, especially if you just let it go.

just be submissive

Score: 0

By fwet

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 12:31 AM

Only a complete moron would expect MS to support it's programs so they can be run on Linux. MS makes programs for Windows. MS makes programs for Apple. Deal with it.
There are enough anti-MS babies in the world.

Score: 0

By rijp

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 9:20 AM

OK, if you are going to berate someone, first have the decency to at least illustrate what they were wrong about. And second, get a damn spell checker, newb. You look totally silly posting that response, for one, all you did was call them "stupid".. amazingly you spelled it right. But you aren't smart enough yourself to even list what they did wrong. Perhaps it is you that works at Burger King :)

Score: 0

By Tom_W

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 1:34 AM

If you only knew what you were talking about, you could possiably post a message to this forum that wasn't toatly stupid.. Here is some advice, if you don't know what your talking about .. You should keep your mouth shut or you will look stupid!
Someone with the IQ that you posses probability
cleans the rest rooms at a local burger joint anyway.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 6:41 PM

He is just doing a really bad job at trying to be me. ;)

Score: 0

By fwet

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 3:31 AM

You are *possiably* wrong... no I mean *toatly* wrong. It is you that *posses* the I.Q. of a hard-boiled egg.

Score: 0

By genblood

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 10:13 PM

Microsoft has the right to check and see if
their SW is valid and if its running on a Windows
based system. I hate when people or groups of
people complain about MS products. If you don't
like it don't use it. The people that use wine ...
so they can run windows apps or MS-Office ...
should switch back to a MS OS... Linux has its
good points and bad ... I prefer WinXP or Linux
any day ... I still use Linux, but only for work.
Microsoft spent 100s on millions on windows design

Linux needs to get together and pool its resources
together. Wine isn't that good in the first place,
it needs to be redesigned or scrapped in my
opinion.

What needs to be done is have native linux apps,
that match the windows apps. Linux is getting
more users by the day, but if people still relie
on MS products. Those people will go back to
the MS OS before you know it ....

Bottom line ... MS should be able to test if
their products are running on Linux systems...

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 2:35 AM

all microsoft has a right to do is check to ensure you are running a legal copy of whatever software you are using that bears their name, windows, office, games etc.. they have no right to check to see if you are running a microsoft app on microsoft windows. They dont have to support such a configuration but they cannot legally require one to do the other. Wine isnt the only instance what will be hit with this snafu. There was a project for IBM OS/2 Warp called pe2exe or something like that that attempted something simular.

and you contradict yourself in this post as well. You state " I hate when people or groups of
people complain about MS products. If you don't
like it don't use it." well, those who hate windows are doing just that, not running windoiws. However, in the same breath, they may like office so they DO run office.

"Microsoft spent 100s on millions on windows design" your point? I am sure that Ford spent millions on the design and research of the edsel, that didnt make it any better of a car :).

"Wine isn't that good in the first place,
it needs to be redesigned or scrapped in my
opinion. " good thing the linux community isnt relying on your obvious MS bias for their linux apps :)

"Bottom line ... MS should be able to test if
their products are running on Linux systems..." maybe so and maybe not.. but it goes against court rulings dealing with their "monopoly" status to require one to run the other

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 10:26 PM

I hate when people complain about people complaining. Nothing changes if all the sheeple get in line and keep their mouths shut. If no one complained we would still be owned by england.

Think about that for a few minutes before you go spouting your worthless babble about people looking for change to something that doesn't work right.

Score: 0

By Pipewrench

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 5:09 PM

Personally I think it's funny.

Windows is Microsoft's closed source software. They can do what they want with it :) If you don't like it don't use it.

If Linux ever became a real threat to MS they would start giving their own stuff away free, or they would make their own Distro of Linux.

LOL. Wine is crappy anyway.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

edited Feb 21, 2005 - 7:16 PM

wow, you're an idiot.
Linux must be a real threat/why do i keep seeing anti-linux ads from MS? Why is M$ blocking updates to ligit M$ apps. They are doing what they want, and that is a big part of why they have M$ haters out there.

Score: 0

By Spinecast

posted Feb 23, 2005 - 8:07 PM

Hmmm...

These Linux losers hate MS, but use MS Office, or any other MS program on Linux...I don't know about you guys, but this makes no sense.

I guess, when it comes down to it, they finally realise MS is better.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Feb 24, 2005 - 7:30 PM

"Linux losers hate MS"

Had to throw "losers" in there, huh? I bet you feel like a winner now.

Score: 0

By Pipewrench

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 7:21 PM

Be a MS Hater. Who cares.

It's Microsoft's own software. If you want to use it buy it an use it. If not don't try to use it on Wine. It's designed and supported in a Windows environment. It is not supported under Wine or Linux. If you can get it working.....great. If not don't complain. They are not blocking Office updates. Just Windows updates.

Use Open source and rewrite whatever you want.

If you don't like MS stuff don't run it. Quit complaining about it.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 8:18 PM

"Microsoft says it will leave customers running Office via Wine a loophole: They will make most, if not all, of the Office downloads available to them on the Office Online Web site – and not require them to validate using the Windows Genuine Advantage mechanism to get them,"

"But... if the goal of WGA is to thwart piracy, as Microsoft has stated, why is Microsoft blocking all Wine users in the first place?"

The question still remains unanswered. You say use open source and make it work - that's what has been done - MS is purposly breaking that support WHY? We all know why, they fear Open Source.

Score: 0

By GBH

edited Feb 22, 2005 - 12:53 AM

if this site actually had moderators one would hope they would mod your "bottom" back to the stoneage.

I use wine a fair bit, Office 2000 works well under wine with very little hassle.

Edited because some people think a** is a swear word.

Score: 0

By Pipewrench

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 7:22 PM

You show your intelligence by using swear words in your post. Nice going buddy.

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 2:43 AM

wooo.. now use of "swear words" is a mark of a person's IQ? I guess the brains in mensa (which I am one of godd*** it) never swear? (Mensa is an organization for those in the top 2 percentile of intelligence for those who have no freaking clue)

Score: 0

By Pipewrench

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 10:42 AM

LOL. What a tool. Mensa is a joke. Easy to get into. You really don't have good sentence structure for a Mensa member. You simply make them look bad. Truth is, that the only people that join Mensa are fools that want to say "I'm a member of Mensa" and other idiots who want to seem smart. There are very smart people out there who make the Mensa members look like retards.

Go get 'em buddy. You smart guy you!

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 2:13 PM

I think you just contradict people for the hell of it. At least that's what it looks like. Oh, I just noticed that I said hell - oh well, I think you can deal with it and understand the point I'm getting across without thinking I'm an idiot for saying such a word - actually, you probably wont understand.

Score: 0

By yohimbe9

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 4:46 PM

On a partially related note, Apple explicity says you can only run OS X on Apple logo'd hardware.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 4:49 PM

that's pretty messed up too

Score: 0

By captainahab

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 4:30 PM

If you don't like Microsoft, don't use their software. Buy a Mac. Use Linux. But don't cry about Microsoft.

Score: 0

By Tom_W

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 10:00 PM

Hello All,

I would suggest that some people here read the Wine FAQ. And I plan to add a couple sections about Microsofts WGA this week.

I keep reading post, here as well as other forums
about how Windows sucks and why would anyone want to use Wine... Two years ago I added this to our FAQ.. You can check CVS if you think I wrote this yesterday.

http://www.winehq.org/si...#WHO-MAINTAINS-THIS-FAQ

[Q]2.6. Why would anyone want Wine? Doesn't Windows suck?

[A] First Wine is not about running Windows but about running Windows applications.

So if all your computing needs are fulfilled by native Unix applications, then you do not need Wine and should not be using it. However, if you depend on one or more of the tens of thousands of Windows applications, then Wine is the best way to use it without giving up on Unix. Let's look at the alternatives to see why:

The most obvious alternative is to dual-boot. This is the solution that provides the best compatibility. However it requires that you acquire a Windows license and then dedicate a good chunk of your hard-drive to Windows. But the worst is yet to come. Each time you will want to use that application you will have to reboot to Windows. This is especially significant if external factors dictate when you must use this application (e.g. credit card to process, email to retrieve from a Lotus Notes server). Then you will find yourself forced to close all your Linux applications just to run that one Windows application. You may quickly get tired of this, or will find that such a situation is impossible to justify in a business environment.

The next solution is to install virtual machine emulation software such as VMWare, Win4Lin or Plex86. Then you can use windows applications without suffering such a big disruption. But it still requires that you acquire a Windows license and dedicate as much disk space to Windows. Furthermore you will pay for the added convenience: if using VMWare or Win4Lin you have to buy another license, and more importantly you now have to dedicate a good chunk of your computer's memory to the virtual machine. Performance will take a significant hit too.

Using Wine lets you avoid all of that overhead: Windows license, hard-drive space required by Windows, memory and performance hit taken by emulated virtual machines. Now you can start your Windows application straight from your regular desktop environment, place that application's window side by side with native applications, copy/paste from one to the other, and run it all at full speed.

Tom Wickline

Score: 0

By degauss

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 5:33 PM

Ahab,

Apparently you don't understand.. WINE users don't like Windows, hence they use Linux. However, they still need to use Microsoft Office, et. al. That's why they use WINE. So, when you tell them to stop whining and use Linux instead, you're kind of preaching to the choir..

Score: 0

By captainahab

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 5:36 PM

Why would someone *need* to use MS Office on Linux? Couldn't they just use OpenOffice? StarOffice?

Score: 0

By l0cks

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 3:23 PM

"Why would someone *need* to use MS Office on Linux? Couldn't they just use OpenOffice? StarOffice?"

They *need* to use MS Office because of compatibility with other companies. I'm mostly talking about word type documents here. Sometimes, depending of the formatting and options, a document made with OOo or SO and opened with MS Office, gives weird results.

The day it will be 99.9% transparent for MS Word as for how the document was created, a lot of people, including me, will push to make the switch to Open Source alternative.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 7:21 PM

Because they have a choice - or are required for work related things. This reminds me - my manager uses staroffice - He installed ms office, which disabled staroffice. Star wouldn't open at all. He said all he did was change the binary from "staroffice.exe" (or whatever the real name is) to "winoffice.exe" and it opened right up.

Score: 0

By oufc_gav

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 4:11 AM

Office and Star Office work perfectly well together on my pc without renaming any exe's. Sounds like more anti-MS lies without fact.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

edited Feb 21, 2005 - 4:58 PM

What are you talking about? Nobody said they dont like M$ - it's clear that there is an objection to what they are doing though.

You are at a site where people talk about opinions and facts. If you can't deal with it, then don't.

Score: 0

By sbisson

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 2:52 PM

There seems to be a serious inaccuracy in this piece, as WINE is Windows emulation - not Windows running on a virtualisation layer...

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 4:46 PM

I guess next step is to make it part of the license agreement that you can only use M$ software if you pay for M$ windows, and run only that paid for windows to install non-windows software.

Ever notice that M$ always does stuff like this until they get taken to court over it. "I'll see what I can get away with" sorta philosophy. He is not being sued enough in these lawsuits to actually be hurt. Just chump change.

M$ could stop doing this crap, charge less for windows, not be sued, and probably end up with same amount of money - then again, it's probably not about the money.

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 2:49 AM

I remember reading a few days ago on another website, that MS has paid close to 3 BILLION dollars to either buy out companies or to pay fines for their actions...

Imagine how cheap their apps would be if they started taking a decent moral attitude towards their development?

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 10:29 PM

They already do, try downloading Media Player 10.

Score: 0

By sasquatchll

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 11:05 PM

I don't hate M$ but it bugs me that when I stop at a page with M$ video with my legit Win XP and Media Player it won't play because I'm using Opera 8.0. If I.E. was as good I'd use it, till then I just skip M$ video.
This new idea of verifiying Windows might get me though as I run a lot of beta software. I love it, it's kinda like why I got into computers in the first place. The challnge, exploring new ideas etc. But it means that my XP and Office are almost never validated because I'll usually have a fatal crash before I need to validate (30 days).

Score: 0

By cool_guy

edited Feb 21, 2005 - 4:41 PM

You are wrong. [W]ine [I]s [N]ot [E]mulator

WINE Is an open source implementation of Windows APIs

Score: 0

By AntiochMedia

edited Feb 21, 2005 - 4:46 PM

Hey, I wanted to address the 'Emulator' vs. 'Virtualized Layer' statement.

If you weren't aware, the acronym 'WINE' stands for:

[W]ine [i]s [N]ot an [E]mulator

You have to love silly acronyms like -- LAME -- [L]ame [A]'int an [M]P3 [E]ncoder.

I'm not too thrilled with WGA -- [W]indows [G]enuine [A]lienation?

Software Piracy 'hurts' the industry, but as Microsoft has admitted before, many people have computers there were unknowingly purchased with unlicensed copies of Windows. It's difficult to penalize these people and more-so, it's better in the long-run to provide security fixes and updates to ANYONE using ANY copy of Windows so as to globally minimize hacker exploits.

If Microsoft really wants to stop software piracy, it needs to be hardware based, perhaps with a USB key card required to boot up Longhorn that securely contains your activation # etc. I am --NOT-- a fan of the idea of attempting to 'lock-down' and 'protect' existing software.

Windows Update for Windows 2000 - XP2 should always remain open as I believe that it REALLY is in Microsoft's best interest.

WGA should be initiated with LongHorn and related only to Longhorn and future releases of Microsoft Products. Longhorn should be handled in a similar fashion to OS/X where there are two sets of applications -- Legacy and Longhorn. Longhorn applications can subscribe to M$'s new verification service. Leave the legacy application support alone.

Score: 0

By nate

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 2:56 PM

Windows running on a PC virtualization layer is not affected, as it is still Windows. PC virtualization is different from virtualizing or emulating Windows.

Microsoft considers Wine one of the "virtualized versions of Windows" and thus, it is not supported with WGA.

Score: 0

By drbillbailey

posted Feb 21, 2005 - 9:42 PM

If you are using virtualized Windows, you are still running Windows, they are just screwing their own customers as usual. (Simply because they are "loyal" and are "deigning to use Linux.") However, if you use Win4Lin, for instance, Win4Lin recommends NOT doing the Windows Updates anyway, as they (Win4Lin) have modified the Windows system files somewhat and don't want them replaced. Also, you are running on Linux (underneath) and are more secure than Windows alone in any case.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 6:45 PM

I've used it for years and have never heard that. Do you have a reference? The first thing I have always done when I've needed it was to patch it.

Score: 0

By GeorgeSantayana

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 2:58 PM

I've heard that Win4Lin is having a closed beta test for 2000 and XP. Any idea when they'll support either?

Score: 0

By fewt

edited Feb 22, 2005 - 6:44 PM

Having been a Win4Lin beta tester in the past, I would guess that if they are in Beta then it's probably only a few weeks/months out now.

Score: 0

By GeorgeSantayana

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 7:21 PM

I need to keep up with the news. They released Win4Lin for 2000 and XP on 2/16/2005.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Feb 22, 2005 - 7:46 PM

I think they announced it, but it isn't available yet. hrm, now I have to go look. lol

Score: 0