Eh please let me know if i'm missing out on something. But If its not bundled with is are you not still forced to install it in order to download your preferred such as Firefox???

And also as some of you have suggested you will eventually be forced to install IE because you need it for a lot of stuff on microsofts websites especially the Updates.This has been implemented on purpose by microsoft to force you to use IE

well GeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeZ;
if they can gett it WITHOUT IE
then datz what I want TOO

Heiner looks so incompetent. You cannot impress the Commission with these moves and the public hate campaign. It is all a bit like you have molested the girls in the neighborhood, are put in court and castrate yourself. You were not asked to do that and that won't change your prison sentence. It only even makes you look more mentally sick.

The initiative is not upon Microsoft here. "Given the complexity and competing interests, we don't believe it would be best for us to adopt such an approach unilaterally.", how arogent he is.

Microsoft has to learn to play according to the rules.

Even if they make them up as they go along?

Show me where it states in *any* law that *any* company must include competing products *within* it's *own* products.

No such law exists. In a case of "unfair competition" due to bundling, if the company *removes* the bundled product...problem solved.

If the EC wants to levy fines or whatever for the past bundling, fine... MSFT will laugh quietly to them selves and won't pay those one's either. But ordering them to bundle *more* and *competing* software would be asinine, and probably initiate appeal after appeal because there is simply no justification for such a thing.

MS should go with that "ballot screen" idea but they shouldn't include IE, Opera, FF, Chrome or Safari. They should include Avant, Crazy Browser, Maxthon, Lunascape5 Genesis, Slim Browser, and TheWorld Browser. How's that for consumer choice? As stupid as this might sound I'd love to see them include these browsers with the more notable ones. That be awesome for the consumers to have 11 browsers to choose from. Would that be playing by the rules?

Sure, but totally asinine.

Since when do we force companies to advertise their competitors products? ...and once we start down that path....

I agree PC Tool. Just trying to be sarcastic. I don't think MS should have to add other browsers but I'd love to here what John von Tetzchner and the EUC has to say if MS said they were thinking about including the less popular browsers I mentioned.

This is ridiculous, if they are getting on Microsoft for bundling IE, they should get on Apple for bundling Safari.

This is getting to be stupid. Really stupid. Whatever happens with Windows 7 Gold in Europe, you all know (I hope) that SP1 or SP2 for Windows 7 will incorporate IE8 or possibly 9...

Microsoft will say: "yo Europeanos, go download all the security patches separately, or grab the convenient Service Pack which has IE built-in due to corporate demand; you DO have a choice, like your lovely American-corp-arse-humping commission so desires"... ;)

Once again -- stupid game.

I will re-iterate my suggestion to the US government: these EU "laws" cost *us* Americans money *and* progress since MS has to deal with this bulls***. How about you show THEM some middle-fingering by increasing import taxes on everything Euro, or just their MAIN export, which may just happen to be sick German fisting pornos... AWWW GODDDDDD

I shall, on principle, NEVER travel to any country part of the EU. Just like I will NEVER travel to Las Vegas on moral ground (prostitution, gambling). Though some may have difficulty comprehending my ethics as I vehemently support all kinds of piracy possible... I simultaneously support heavy penalties for pirates. In other words, don't make a law you cannot enforce, and if you CAN enforce the law, then the prices WILL become the true FAIR market-dictated prices for said product. And only then. ;) Until then, steal from the much richer than you and don't get caught. And share share share...

You Guy's do not understand the EEC , it's a bureaucracy, that depends upon it's very existence for ever more diktats, that will expiditionally keep their gravy train going , to keep on steam rolling us(nee taxes,here in UK and elsewhere).

Interesting the wording of MS's Statement, they will not include IE 8 in windows 7 E... Nowhere did they say they wouldnt sneak in IE 7 :)

Heh...

Never even thought of that, but I think it'd be more trouble than it's worth. :p

I wonder if the people complaining about Microsoft removing IE8 from Windows were the same ones complaining about IE8 being bundled with Windows.

What is bloody typical here is that they decide to do this just as IE is starting to support standards.

It's completely totally DUMB to remove IE8 - if you remove it then how do you download it or an alternative browser. You need to offer IE8 but ALSO offer alternatives. Why is this rocket science all of a sudden?

?Since when do you need Internet Explorer to download Windows Update or Virus Definition?
EU version will have extra program that helps do decide what program you want for Internet Surfing
if person has Internet connection then he can download browsers!!!
EU Commission tells Microsoft what and how to bundle!!!

"It's completely totally DUMB to remove IE8"

Problem: Bundling Browser with OS.

Solution: Unbundle browser from OS.

How is this rocket science?

"if you remove it then how do you download it or an alternative browser."

Apparently, you don't need one. At least, according to the EC. Of course, there is always FTP.

"You need to offer IE8 but ALSO offer alternatives."

Since when is the solution to bundling, to bundle *more*? (Hint: It never is or has been, by the EC's own history.) The problem is obviously *not* bundling...

Again, the EC couldn't care less that a browser be *bundled*...in fact, they suddenly seem quite adamant that a browser *should* be bundled. The problem here is that the EC wants to *force* Microsoft to offer choice (to advertise, include, and install competing products), when they have no right to do so. Never has this even been considered for, one would think, rather obvious reasons.

I'm a Firefox lover and user, and the only time i *ever* run IE is for windows update, and even i think this pretty ridiculous. how does the EU expect people to get a web browser? commandline ftp/telnet?

something about cutting off your nose to spite your face bla bla here...

It might be something along those lines. Maybe when they click a shortcut, it will take them to a starter/xml? page with different browser options and ability to directly ftp and download it.

Wait a sec there, FTP built in? Outrage! (sarcasm intended)

Might be worth noting that you can just disable IE in Windows 7 and it does fully disappear.

Which is all well and good until you need to do something that requires IE, say Microsoft Technet and you have to turn it back on.

"...Of course, they will also be free, as they are today, to install other Web browsers."

Why does he bother mentioning that?

...to make a point. No-one is forced to use IE. They never have been.

Never have been? Microsoft currently uses "Automatic Updates" to push IE8. I think that does constitute "forcing", no? I mean, sure you can customize Automatic Updates but out of the box the little bugger pushes automatically.

Okay...

What part of "USE" are you having trouble with? It is installed. You are not forced to *use* it.

Reading comprehension FTW!

Do you even use Windows? Even when it "automatically installs", it asks you before it updates. It does not force you to update in any circumstances.

Even if it did, you could turn automatic updates to notify only with just a few clicks.

Oh! darn, my mistake ;)

Heh...

'Sokay. We all have our "off" days. Some of us have them all the time, in fact. ;)

Absolutily pointless. The EC is a real shame.

1. How are ppl gonna be able to get any browser from the internet if thay don´t have IE to get it?? Telnet or hehehe
2. Doesn´t Mac and most if not all Linux have intergrated browsers.
3. Who´s to tell Microsoft what thay can´t put in theyr own soft.

The Mac comparison keeps popping up. But it isn't relevant. Mac doesn't have a (near) monopoly position in the OS market.

Linux one isn't a valid argument. Pretty much every distro indeed ships with a browser, but it's easy to remove and replace with the package management systems they include. In fact Linux distros are the place where not having a default browser would actually work: you can install them from the package manager.

And as already pointed out - monopoly power changes the rules.

...So the more successful you are, the more the EU has to castrate you?

Firefox's market share proves that MS is no longer a monopoly in the browser market anyway.

Actually, yes. And that is the case in any market. It just happens to be slightly more complicated when it comes to software.

*laughing*

Much ado about nothing.

OEM's will decide to include IE8 as the default. All this does it make it the OEM's choice instead of Microsoft's choice. Have no doubt...it will still *be* the choice. People expect IE to be there, and in fact many *depend* on it to be there. OEMs are not going to risk possible incompatibilities, user confusion, and all of the other crap that comes with "messing with windows".

(FYI: I do not use IE. I am a die-hard Firefox user...though Chrome keeps looking better)

Mmh...I'm not sure about that. I can see some OEMs installing Firefox instead. Then advertising their systems as being "safer" or something like that.

I'm with Morsel - I'd be inclined to install FF if IE wasn't a default part of the install. It's certainly something I'd be discussing with the team as an option.

If you like Chrome looks but safety and more addons in Firefox then you can always download Chrome skin or download Mozilla Labs Personas (you can create and change your looks yourself :P)

Morsel,

I would agree, but for the fact that the IE icon is incredibly familiar...to nearly everyone by now.

The Firefox icon on the other hand, is virtually unrecognized by most of the world by comparison.

How many calls do you expect Dell will field asking where the Internet Explorer icon is before they start loading it again? ;)

Meh. Saves Microsoft the inevitable fine and it's not like there will be *any* copies of it sold.

They should make it and then make it the only version available for the EU itself to use ;-) Then let's see them load a browser without having to contact their IT dept.

Hey, if it give me a job for easy money then sure, I'm all for it.
Plus, it'd educate people how to actually use their computers a bit more in the EU.

Since that's not happening: I really couldn't give a damn about this announcement. It's completely inconsequential.

Agreed. I wholeheartedly concur. Unbundling IE will do nothing for the end user in europe and I guarantee this version will stagnate like the Windows N versions. Oh well, the EU is happy and Microsoft wont have to pay....Until the EU says Microsoft didn't do it the way they wanted.

Personally, I feel MS should not HAVE to include anything in their OS which advertises or offers other browsers. That is just stupid, IMPO

Let's see how much support from MS for those OEM vendors decided to offer other browser than IE.

Absolutely retarded.

Why should MS be prevented from bundling free MS software with their OS? It's not like it's difficult to download Firefox, Chrome, Safari (though who would want to), or Opera (though no one does). All this will do is make more work for manufacturers and customers who are forced to use the explorer-less version of Windows.

May be the Notepad syndrome could be an explanation. I know a lot of Windows users who only know Notepad. And don't laugh, there are even senior programmers among these persons. And yet there are a lot of freeware text editors which are much better but people don''t use because Notepad is already pre-installed.

You may say that advanced text editors are too complicate. It's is not true, even when you use none of the advanced features, the color syntax, tabbed interface and more flexible searches require no learning.

When you start IE for the first time, it asks you to configure, for example select the default search engine. The same mechanism could be used when Windows 7E starts for the 1st time. Asking the user to select a browser then Windows will just download the installer and launch it. What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with that... Why should they have to? They make a product, and sell it. Bottom line. Why should anyone force them to do anything to it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.

If you made speaker boxes and woofers and then the EU says you can't include the woofers with the speaker box becuase other woofer makers can't sell any woofers... WTF!

Firefox and all the rest are trying to make a buck too, they chose to make a program for Windows... why should MS be forced to give them any space right off the bat? It's absolutely ridiculous.

But its notepad and I simply do not care.

I think you made my point for me.

Notepad is good enough, it's not ruining the market for the better text editors, most people just don't need a better text editor. Similarly most people are happy with MS Paint, the built-in calculator, and Solitaire. None of these apps are destroying a market by being included with Windows, they have just defined the level of excellence and features required to deliver to a market who isn't satisfied with those offerings.

By the same logic the EU is using in forcing the removal of a bundled IE, we next could see Windows Explorer itself an "option" you have to choose after installing the OS. There are other file explorers, and some that are (arguably) superior. But the sane person realizes that most users just want to get to their files without a hassle. Similarly the average user just wants to get some website without a hassle. End users don't care about tabbed browsing, addons vs activex, HTML support, JS loading speed, or any of the other comparisons we computer geeks use to determine what browser is superior.

What this really comes down to is Opera using the fact they are a EU-based company and MS is a US-based company to try to gain some traction in a market that simply doesn't care about Opera. Google, Mozilla, and other entities just jump on the train because why not?

"They make a product, and sell it. Bottom line. Why should anyone force them to do anything to it? If you don't like it, don't buy it."

Great truth, if someone wants to buy the drugs that I offer, which do not. But I do not understand because I do not allow the sale

Sorry for my bad English

Good that they will give more chance for other browsers , I wonder if they add all browsers...

3months after October 22 final release date they will give the final language packs , Vista PCs in Europe made old people confused cause they thought they bought with native language not English OS with new PC and only ultimate version allowed to install language packs

This is really mad action. Why EU is forcing to a company like that. I'm not IE fan, I use firefox but in some cases it's good to have IE. If my firefox get crash or if I unable to open or if it slow, I use IE to check whether everything is going normal. Users already have choice to choose what they want to install. This is something like disabling Microsoft by EU. Which company/ Product next? Windows 7 is a property of Microsoft.