Mozilla needs to level the playing field by offering their own OS if they don't like they way MS does business. As Sam (from Burn Notice) would say, "What a bunch of whiny little b****es."

Mozilla and whoever else needs to get a grip. Windows is a microsoft product. And thus they should be able to include whatever they want. The user has the option (being it's not rocket science to download a program) to get whatever else they prefer. This wonderful computer world we live in is due in large part to microsoft. You dont have to like them, just stop acting like a child. Firefox is nice and has many good features, but i dont like useing it. Just cause it's not what i like. I use IE the most and sometimes Opera.

sure put a ballot screen ms but if i was you, you should charge for each install that you complete on the behalf of each of these companys and send them a bill

your going to include there setup i would guess seein that not evey one installs with a internet connection .

thats space used on the disk dont forget to charge for that

i can see a money making deal right here

When I change my default browser, I want to change my DEFAULT browser.
We shouldn't be bothered with all that IE s*** hanging around when we don't want it!

You know what you do with things you don't want, you get rid of them!

Does Firefox offer Bing by default or even at all? STFU Mozilla.

Change your start page to bing.com

Stop the whinning already...you make Microsoft sympathetic again...

They need to include more browsers minus Opera and FF.

This is seriously getting annoying. I can not believe all the whining that has gone on over this. Microsoft has gone beyond what they should have done. Way beyond.

IE on my windows!? yes, its a no-brainer since IE comes with the OS. want diff browser? great, go for it... what's the big deal with this decade long topic??!!

customers do NOT care if IE comes w/ OS... but the competitor browser CEOs are awfully upset :)

Why should MS separate browser from OS. Will Apple do it ? Will Google do it ? No...why should MS ?

I still think it was the EU that gave the decision and not SC. And I believe it's wrong...It's like telling Apple to provide Opera as the default browser in Touch or iPhone...

That's just plain wrong. You just need common sense to see that. I guess not many people have it, do they ?

"Because MS is screwing over HTML! "

*laughing*

HTML is a standard completely out of Microsoft's control.

"and ActiveX is the Information Superhighway to YOUR Hard drive! "

Agreed. ActiveX sucks big time.

"The EU wanted MS to provide a fair way for the other browsers. "

No, the EC wants to "force" one product to advertise for competing products. If it was *only* about "fairness" and "choice", they'd force the issue for *ALL* OS vendors instead of singling out *one*.

Shut up Mozilla. You are acting like a first grader.

Build a OS, give that OS a market penetration of 98% and then talk about IE being "uniquely privileged"

I hereby make this official request to Microsoft to drop FireFox from the ballot screen. You have IE, Safari, Opera and Chrome.

The way MS recieved 98% market penetration was through piracy of its own software and through unscrupulous exclusivity contracts with resellers and oem pc makers...

do we REALLY want to drag another company through all that litigation ... again?

I don't like the way Microsoft is forcing its app's to users, this is how it works :
Microsoft forces IE to users >> Microsoft uses IE's popularity to make its own standards >> designers, developers and everyone else suffer

end-users don't care what browser they use, many don't even know about the existence of other browsers, they simply want a computer that can surf the web, and Microsoft uses this to its own advantage and to destroy everything good.

@eunichman, do you think the OEM pc and retailers were stupid to sign up with Microsoft. Show them something better and they will sign up. Hey, this is capitalism.

Trust me, if Mozilla has something good enough to challenge Microsoft, they needn't beg, cry and act like a first grader. People would have just bought it.

Like I said above, this is capitalism. What I or you think doesn't count. Even I think there are lot of things wrong with this world we live in...starters...I believe Health care is a birth right...

And if end-users don't care about what browser they use is because for them IE allows them to write email, see email, send email, chat and browse...they don't need to know if the browser has passed 100% on Acid3...thats you and me...they care a hoot...talk to them about all these...and you are wasting THEIR time...and not only yours...and Microsoft knows this and uses this...just like Apple...who sell their sub-standard devices just because people think they look cool...

It was probably true 10-12 years ago. But it's 2009 now. If Microsoft does something with IE, it's to make it more standard-compliant in each new release. Can you name one standard they created for the web in the last 3 years that anybody suffered from? I don't and I'm a developer.

I'd bet a huge amount of money that if Microsoft removed IE from Windows 7 completely, and put that ballot-screen there instead, most of the end-users would chose IE without hasitation.

This whole EU thing, the Opera and now Mozilla whining is ridiculous.

Unscrupulous... So PC makers, once their arms weren't twisted anymore, would have offered what? Linux? OS X? Please.

They are being intimidated.

MS to OEM: "You don't want to do the stuff we say?
Okay then we just end our contracts with you and do not provide Windows for you anymore! "

The way Mozilla acted is in this article greatly misinformed and exaggerated (the misinformed part).

"MS to OEM: "You don't want to do the stuff we say?
Okay then we just end our contracts with you and do not provide Windows for you anymore! " "

So why don't they just stop selling WIndows if it's so bad? Everyone keeps saying how many alternatives are out there and how much better than Windows they are...

What's holding them back?

Oh, right... 1.) MSFT hasn't operated in that fashion since what, 1995? and 2.) The alternatives are absolute *crap*.

Whose product is Windows anyway? Why shouldn't Microsoft have a more dominant position on the desktop? That's like telling Ford they have to have a Chevy steering wheel in their cars. Nobody's telling Apple they can't put Safari on their dock. Competition is fine and dandy. MS shouldn't have to give away their desktop location. Will Google in their new Chrome OS have a similar selection process? Considering the OS is built on their Web Browser I think not. Stop the wining Mozilla Man... On the screenshot you're listed as number 2. What more do you want?

Mozilla should shove it, I use firefox daily, but this sh!t they are pulling lately is rediculous

I have to defend Mozilla here. The people who are the most vocal about this whole issue aren't Mozilla, but Opera Software. And I have a feeling that no matter what Microsoft would do, Opera Software would still complain.

Opera's marketing shouldn't be Microsoft's job, but Opera's job. Something Mozilla figured out long ago.

Choice is great and I am all for it, but there has to be a limit as to how much complaining and whining one must read from these alternate browser.

I use FF myself, but this whining has to stop somewhere, somehow. I personally think MS has done more than most other companies in making choice possible. They even made it possible to remove IE8 completely from Win7. Yeah I know that MS is the big bad wolf because they have so much market share, (which in my opinion is because they produce good software, but thats a different story) but I would like to see for instance Apple do the same. At the moment they dont even allow any form of browser choice on the iPhone...

I used to be all for doing away with IE and get the masses onto alternate browsers, but somewhere down this road I feel that something isnt right here anymore...

its amazing what a quick jailbreak can do for ur iphone browser issue :)

Only an Apple product would have to be "broken" prior to it being made useful. ;)

I can't agree. Chrome just lacks way too much in the feature department to be considered "the best" (does it even have any kind of ad-block?). When it comes to customization Firefox is the king of the hill. Combine Chrome usability with Firefox customization features and you got the perfect browser in my opinion.

Cannot agree either. Chrome is probably the most underdeveloped and unpolished browser out of the "big 4". Its fast, but thats about it.

Who said Firefox users didn't possess a sense of humour ? Well who ever it was just needs to read the hilarious responses to my tongue in cheek post to see they were spot on. All we need now is the Opera and Linux gangs to arrive and our little group will be complete. Google rocks bro. !

Bah!

LIEZ!

Everyone knows OffByOne is the ultimate in browsing ease, looks, and performance. Hell, if you're using anything else, you're not even on the WEB...you're just faking it! That's why they don't include it in their benchmarks; They KNOW it would make all the other "Wanna-be" browsers look like foolish little school-girls (and we all know Opera, Safari, and Firefox *pay* Betanews to keep OffByOne off the charts!)

You and your silly Chrome... You wouldn't know the REAL web if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord singing, "Strawberry Fields Forever"!

You idiot! You are talking about something out of the dark ages of web serving.

QUOTE: "The Off By One Browser V3.5.d was posted on January 2, 2006"

Right off their website!!!

I guess some people still think IE6 is the fastest and most compliant browser ever made.

WOOSH!

Wow, man...I think *you* became the punchline for that joke.

Some people need to seriously work on their ability to detect sarcasm....

It Isn't?!!!!!

LOL!

Haha :)

PC_Tool "Some people need to seriously work on their ability to detect sarcasm..."
Could be an Opera user, or possibly a Linux guy, my money is on a Linux guy, Opera folk rarely, if ever leave the safety of their forums.

LOL

"IE will still have a unique and uniquely privileged position on Windows installations."

Look stop complaining. I'm the first one to advocate choice and for you to get your browser on Windows is a major success - it offers choice to the customer. But stop your whinging right now! Of course IE will still have a unique and uniquely privileged position on Windows installations. MS coded Windows and MS coded Windows - when Mozilla bring out its own OS then you can decide whether you want to go further than MS have. But until then - button it!

"Choosing another browser as a 'default' does not mean that the other browser takes the place of IE," Baker writes. "For example, the IE logo ('shortcut') still remains unchanged on the desktop. The shortcut / logo of the browser the user has selected does not replace this, it is added elsewhere. As a result, the familiar location remains IE, not the user's choice."

Why should it? Does default mean ONLY? I'm sorry, but every browser has it's strengths & weaknesses, so why whould I only want the default to show & all others be hidden?I use IE8/Avant, Opera AND Fx (the proper abbreviation for Firefox), so should I have to jump through hoops & change default every time I need to use a different browser because the icons get commandeered by the current default browser? What if I want to use them all simultaneously? Who's next to join in the whinefest?

Fx has messed with my defaults, even though it's not my default browser, after it once set itself as default a few programs won't let go of it no matter what I try, it's very annoying.

I say the no browser idea is the only "fair" one, no way to say that MS "positioned" their browser more favorably & let 'em sort out for themselves how to install their browser of choice...being too demanding can have consequences, now go explain to your citizens how you just made life so much better for them (on their Euro at that). Let them resurrect the EU extension of the old Sneakernet Express! That or educate all the peolpe who don't even know what a command line is to Telnet or FTP to get their browser of choice...that should be rather interesting since most over or under a certain age range wouldn't know DOS, let alone how to use it if it bit them.

Why not forgo graphic browsers in favor of text based browser (of course they'd most likely throw a tantrum over which of those to make default too)?

Why not just extend this idiocy to OS of choice, Email client, Office Suite, etc., etc., ad infinitum as well, or are those next on the EC's agenda?

/whinefest (the EC should do the same)

I want a browser choice on my Wii. I don't think it's fair that I am stuck with Opera on there. I can't understand what Nitendo was thinking when it chose Opera. This violates every moral law known to mankind. Opera should have to pay a fine for such behavior. It's not fair. I also want a browser choice on all mobile phones. I want to pick the pilot who is flying that big jet I am riding in. I want to pick the people who harvest my vegetables to make sure they are clean. I want someone besides China to make synthetic vitamins. I want a bicycle made somewhere besides China. Impossible right now, but things can change and people can turn their anger toward unthought of places. Just ask Obama.

Does FF, Opera, Safari, Chrome, Etc. make themselves the default browser after they are installed? Do any of them offer a choice of search engines when they are installed? I don't know the answer to these questions. It would be nice to know these things so I can have something to b**** about.

The inmates are surely running the asylum.

This is BS!!! Why is Opera and Safari on here but SlimBrowser? What makes them so special that it doesn't get listed on the ballot screen?

This whole thing is stupid.

I guess people like the idea of a ballot box? Who decides who should get on this ballot box? What jusities Opera, Safari, or Chrome being on the ballot box over any other brwoser such as slimbrowser. What happens if in a year some other browser comes along and has a greater share than Opera? Do we force Microsoft to reproduce all its installs to add this browser? Or do we do a monthly ballot box so that people are presented with whatever the anti-IE crowd decides are the most popular browsers at the time. This whole ballot box is stupid.

For crying out loud talk about jumping the gun! All MS gave was a screenshot of the idea of a ballot system, nothing stated the system would be through a web browser. For all we know it could end up being a messagebox. They have stated really nothing beyond the mockup image. Let's not forget that Win7 allows the ability to "turn off IE". in other words the browser is disabled and the icons go away! Howabout waiting til MS actually presents the darn thing! Sheessh

Yes, and Windows should also wipe your a** and cook you a dinner. Stupid f**ks.
They'll never be happy no matter what they do. They'll always find some freckin' complaint.
I'm from EU and i couldn't care less about their mini wars against Microsoft. I, as a customer prefer Windows the way they are. I don't need some crippled s*** filled with nonsense. I can install whatever browser i want. And i also educate others how to do it. One is now using only Opera, another one is using Firefox. So, where is the problem really? There is always some local geek that deals with this kind of stuff so i really don't get it why they have to load this crap into Windows itself.

""Choosing another browser as a 'default' does not mean that the other browser takes the place of IE," Baker writes. "For example, the IE logo ('shortcut') still remains unchanged on the desktop. The shortcut / logo of the browser the user has selected does not replace this, it is added elsewhere. As a result, the familiar location remains IE, not the user's choice.""

These guys are supposedly intelligent, right?

Here's a thought, Baker: Change your installer to replace the IE shortcuts with Firefox shortcuts.

Duh?

It shouldn't any longer, but it always amazes me how incredibly stupid these people can be.

changing shortcuts does not mean that the other browser, I.E. isnt on the system... Go try to do a windows update and see what pops up :)

You are wrong about IE popping up during windows update. I did a windows update on Windows 7 and IE didn't pop up. Where did you test your idea? I don't think you don't need IE to update Windows 7.

Funny, automatic updates on all of my XP systems never once opens IE. It's only if I want something like Windows Search or Office Live to be added in (Optional Component) that I have to open IE in Windows XP. Vista and 7 have removed IE from the equation. Nice try thou.

When I change my browser to something I don't need all that IE s*** hanging around!
Even if Baker changes the shortcuts during the installation, windows can check if those shortcuts are gone and recreate them. What if I set my default browser back on IE and then on Firefox again for e.g. testing something? Then it won't work!

When I set my default browser to some browser, I want that my computer uses that browser!
Because, you know what? Because that's the reason to set a DEFAULT browser.
The people who still don't get the point, search on Wiktionary what default means.
We, the users shouldn't be bothered to change it ourselves.
MS can have it's deceiving default browser thing and choke in it!

Sounds reasonable? Duh

"Even if Baker changes the shortcuts during the installation, windows can check if those shortcuts are gone and recreate them. "

It can also format your drive or load it all up full of gay midget wrestling porn.... Can != Will/Does.

"What if I set my default browser back on IE and then on Firefox again for e.g. testing something? Then it won't work!

Wait, so they can replace icons, but they can't program a stupid ballot screen to recreate them? Please, for the love of God, try thinking before posting.

"When I set my default browser to some browser, I want that my computer uses that browser!
Because, you know what? Because that's the reason to set a DEFAULT browser.

...and? On XP: Set you default browser to Firefox or Chrome. Guess what? It's your default browser. The only difference here is that IE is even *less* integrated into the OS in 7 than it was in XP.

I wonder if they would like a little cheese with that whine?

Right now the browsers are ordered in popularity, with IE conveniently at the top. I hope the EU notices this and forces them to order them alphabetically or some other fair way.

And Opera, Firefox et al. won't rename to Aardvark at all, will they.

"And that comparison should include Speed, Security, Extensibility and more." You think it should be included because you care about it? The majority of the people don't care about it at all. They just care about being able to get online and access the websites they want. So if I care about the .exe file size should that be included as well? How about the fact that extensions break with new updates to FF? Should that be made known? Too much information can be a huge deterrent sometimes. It's fair enough that each browser gets to put a basic description and leave it at that.
" I hope the EU notices this and forces them to order them alphabetically or some other fair way" uhh..explain to me why isn't ordered by popularity fair? It's just as fair as other methods that's not random. If alphabetically is fair, why not reverse-alphabetically? Unless you display order by random each time the OS is installed, there will always be people that argue that it's fair or not.

That's AaAaArghdvark :)

maybe the time has come for American companies to realize that there is nothing they can do that will satisfy the EC. They protect their own (Airbus and other companies) and see American companies as cash cows.
My advice to MS is to ship the OS without any browser or APIs that allow for updating and then tell the EC to stick it where the sun don't shine. There are plenty of other markets to tap.
Oh, and maybe we should also tell the EC that the time has come for them to pony up and defend themselves instead of relying on American blood. Let's see how well that good old social net holds up when they have to pay their own way in defense. Screw the EC and the EU.
Face it- No matteer what MS or and other American Company does, the EC will find fault.

To anyone from the Ec or Eu, I sure hope I didn't offend your fragile egos:)

What are you talking about? I don't see any American army defending Europe, more like endangering it with its foreign policies, and as for the other BS about EU protection, they buy as many Boeing planes as Airbus, another hillbilly that has no idea what’s going on in the real world, I agree that the EC are full of dumb people, they make dumb laws for the Europeans as well, but saying MS shouldn’t sell in the EU is just as dumb, what a great idea, lets rule out billions of Dollars in sales, you would last about five minutes in business, why do you care anyway? You are not even involved in this if you live in the USA, you’re poking your nose in where it doesn’t belong, typical of America.
I hope I didn’t offend your thick skinned American ego
Oh and I agree, I actually want IE8 included, and will be buying Windows 7 from the USA if they remove it from the EU version, but they have yet to even rule on the ballot screen, this story is about Mozilla, you can moan away if the EC reject the ballot screen and I will be happy to back you 100%, maybe we can get back on topic now

rtwnt, always a pleasure to visit, have a laugh and a joke, and then a silly billy like you arrives and spoils it.

I have to give you a credit for an obsure reference to William Frederick or "Silly Billy"; 15 January 1776 – 30 November 1834. Heck, I'll even give you a thumbsu up for that one.
Let's break this down: on-topic-
The insanity of all this with the Ec would be laughable if it were not costing money. Are the members of the EU (look back in history and see the genetic inbredding of the European nobility) reallly going to run on a platform that basically says that " The European people are to stupid to use IE and download the Browsers of their choice and then make that their defualt browsers? I wonder how many votes that candidate would get. The simple fact is that IE in no way interferes with a person RIGHT and FAR use of any browser they want. Can the said be said about other OSs.
I assume, since Baker didn't get his "windows for Dummy book" yet when he says:"r example, the IE logo ('shortcut') still remains unchanged on the desktop. The shortcut / logo of the browser the user has selected does not replace this, it is added elsewhere. As a result, the familiar location remains IE, not the user's choice.", he means as Scott Fulton thought, a shortcut. Well guess what? you can delete that shortcut. I, myself like FF without the idiotic number of add-ons and don't use IE. the Ec never had a case just as they never had a case in the WMP flair-up.

the defination of choice is one's ability to add or subtract what you want. You got that now with IE and you had it when the WMP issue came up.
Ballot- Screen- Let's be honest here, no matter how MS configures this some browsers company is going to get their panites all bunched up and file another complaint against MS with the EC. It wil be the EC because this would be laugh out of court in the U.S. So we can expect a whole another round of lawyers making a lot of money on such a silly issue. Sturgess (Grasshopper), have faith in the Europeans to be intelligent enough to realize:
1) I can use IE to d/l my browser.
2) I can delete the "Logo" ( laughing shortcut) and I promise MS won't come in the middle of the night and do bad things to you.
Finally, as to my remark on Nato- I deserved the hits because it was off topic but I have long advocated as many military leaders to close our RAF bases in Briton and other bases in Europe-
The only purpose of NATO was not to rubRussia's eye in their defeat but to defend against a S.U. attack. the threat is gone and those American assets can be better used elsewhere and I assume that the Europeans have evolved enough to settle their differences at the table and not on the battlefield.
My grandparents came from Ireland and still have a knne-jerk re
"

rtwnt, too long.

you're right. When I went to edit, I didn't realize that Betanews had put in a "beat the clock" so when I tried cutting most of the end, I was met with "Sorry, time's up."

rtwnt "I was met with "Sorry, time's up"
With your stuff we are indeed thankful for such interventions.

I'm all for interventions..usually takes a case of Guinness Extra Stout to get me to agree.

"usually takes a case of Guinness Extra Stout"

Yum. Ok, you can't be too bad. :p

Waaaaaaaaaah.

I think Linux distros should be forced to offer a similar choice. Oh wait...that's EXACTLY what google wants.

I believe the EC should institute a Browser Selection Directive to ALL OSES. Force 'em all to do this. Choice guaranteed. Problem solved. No single company gets singled out.

(actually, I think they should shove this nonsense where the sun don't shine, but failing that, this is as fair as it gets.)

holy fa*k, me thinks they are nitpicking now...

I never understood this. Windows is a Microsoft product, who is to say what they can and cannot give you in the way of browsing the web, not one single other OS is forced to do this. I'm sure this is repeating what has been said over and over again, but that is my 2 cents