Login:
Password:

Sophos on Symantec's Vista Complaints

By Scott M. Fulton, III, BetaNews

September 28, 2006, 3:57 PM

The scope of security vendor Symantec's recent set of complaints against Microsoft concern a future feature of Windows Vista entitled PatchGuard, which Microsoft describes as a facility that protects the operating system kernel against being patched or rewritten by an outside, unauthorized source - for instance, a rootkit.

"Patching fundamentally violates the integrity of the Windows kernel," reads an August 11 blog post by Microsoft kernel security architect Scott Field, "and is undocumented, unsupported and has always been discouraged by Microsoft." Without explaining exactly how PatchGuard will do this - for obvious reasons - Field makes the promise that, "If the operating system detects an unauthorized patch of certain data structures or code it will initiate a shut down of the system."

Ostensibly, Symantec's argument, as reported yesterday by the Associated Press, is that Microsoft is using this new mechanism as a way to entrench itself in the software security space - to provide a class of security feature that competitors cannot.

"Microsoft is using their dominant position," Symantec vice president for consumer engineering Rowan Trollope told the AP, "to regulate what security can be provided on their system and how that security is provided."

But the technical argument runs deeper. The AP report says Symantec is seeking certain interface information that Microsoft plans to use for its own Vista security suite, called Defender, along with other information. Symantec told the AP it feels Microsoft used to provide this information freely all the time, though now it only provides this information to partners.

Based on available data, Symantec may also be seeking information on PatchGuard, specifically to see how Microsoft plans to secure the kernel, under the theory that if Microsoft closes off the kernel to everyone, third parties such as Symantec cannot offer their customers alternatives.

No Symantec spokespersons were available for comment to BetaNews today, perhaps because the company may be making good on its threat - described in the AP story yesterday - to raise its new round of complaints to the European Commission, which is already investigating other Symantec complaints on different aspects of Vista.

But we wondered, if Microsoft's choice not to provide, shall we say, "interoperability information" about PatchGuard truly does hurt security vendors, then why wouldn't it hurt them all equally? Why does Symantec appear to be alone in this particular round of complaints?

BetaNews approached Sophos, which is a Microsoft "Gold Partner," and a member of a group that Symantec's Trollope characterized yesterday for the AP as receiving privileged information first, at the expense of rivals. (Symantec was a certified partner with Microsoft earlier this year, and that relationship does not appear to have been officially terminated, despite recent circumstances.)

"I think that the industry as a whole is trying to come to terms with exactly what it is that Microsoft is going to accomplish through its introduction of PatchGuard," Ron O'Brien, senior security consultant with Sophos, told BetaNews. "But from what we have learned in our dialog with Microsoft, which is ongoing, the objection on the part of some vendors is that PatchGuard will prevent access to the kernel, which is that very basic level of the operating system where people feel that they may need to go, in order to provide a total security solution."

Conceivably, if Sophos wanted to provide a "total security solution," given this new set of circumstances, wouldn't it need to understand some of PatchGuard's secrets? Surprisingly, O'Brien told us no. "At this point in time, Sophos does not see the need to be able to access the kernel within the Microsoft operating system," he said.

"If there is a point in time where the kernel becomes the subject of malware being written specifically to it, then I would expect that we would go back to Microsoft and tell them we need to be able to access the kernel. But at this point, it doesn't appear to be necessary."

Nothing about the way PatchGuard works, O'Brien reiterated, would hinder Sophos' architecture for an enterprise security suite. In fact, he argued, if Microsoft wants to use its own methods to close off the kernel, that's a good thing. There's no need for some other company, in the name of security, to pry it open again, just to see how the kernel can be pried open again, in order for it to devise a way to seal it closed.

As Scott Field wrote on his Microsoft blog, "We have also been asked to provide a supported way for 'known good' vendors to continue hooking the kernel but prevent others from doing so. Unfortunately, there is no reliable mechanism for us to distinguish between 'known good' software and malicious software. Moreover, we cannot prevent a malicious software author from 'bundling' purportedly good software in an attempt to thwart the system. Even if we could include such a mechanism, it's unclear if we could use this mechanism to selectively allow kernel hooking in a manner that provides an acceptable trade off between performance and reliability and security."

"The impression that I have so far is that Microsoft is going to be offering a very basic level of protection," Sophos' O'Brien remarked. "In fact, PatchGuard is actually designed to prevent malware writers from being able to access the kernel... If there is a point in time in which the kernel and the accessibility to the kernel is compromised, then we would need to work with Microsoft to be able to access the kernel and correct whatever changes had been made by whatever malware was written to it."

Microsoft did not comment today on Symantec's recent round of complaints, and may be withholding comment until it learns what Symantec intends to do with the European Commission. But for now, at least its partners are helping to frame an affirmative defense for the company.

For years, security vendors have insisted that Microsoft do something to secure the kernel. Now that it looks like they may actually be doing that (putting aside all doubts, for the moment, with regard to how long it holds up), competitors are insisting that they be taught how Microsoft is doing it, the argument goes, so they can follow suit. But giving PatchGuard an "API," if you will, would be contrary to the purpose of the device itself - like attaching an entryway to a sarcophagus.

Sophos' Ron O'Brien was willing to concede the following: "Both Symantec and McAfee, frankly, have a very large consumer customer base, which would potentially be at risk if Microsoft were to enter that market. So I look at that as being a kind of extenuating circumstance."

Add a Comment (45 Comments)

BetaNews reserves the right to remove any comment at any time for any reason. Please keep your responses appropriate and on topic. Foul language and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Name (required):

E-mail (required):

Enter Your Comment:

By devinecutie143

edited Oct 4, 2006 - 3:41 AM

my personal opinion if microsoft wants to block any outside software from touching the kernal so be it microsoft should do as it pleases symantec is just worried cause microsft is offering FREE software and updates to protect out systems when on the other hand symantec is offering something simlar not nessasarily beter for a price. there just worried that theyl lose bussiness. "why would u pay when u can get it for free"

Score: 0

By I'm Batman

edited Oct 4, 2006 - 4:09 AM

[QUOTE]By Frostek
"Really? Perhaps you should check your dictionary and see what the word "replace" means.

Does IE or WMP become uninstallable, just because I install Firefox/Opera or VLC? No, but that's what I want. I want an OS where the browser and the media player are removable applications.

It's not a lot to ask.

There's also no real reason why they couldn't be removable, other than Microsoft's insatiable urge to dominate every computing market, by hook or by crook."[/QUOTE]

Why does the lack of ability to uninstall IE somehow "dominate" your computer?

If you don't want to use IE, don't use it... Simple!

Just keep in mind, if anything I'd say it's a good thing to keep IE uninstallable and free. It serves as your last method of accessing the Internet when you "accidentally" uninstall all web browsers on your system like I know some idiots will inevitably do.

Just think of this as a "safeguard" vs stupidity.

Score: 0

By nrusoni

edited Oct 4, 2006 - 2:25 AM

If AVAST and other AV's work then why the hell does symantec have a problem? Are they saying they cant protect a system from outside the kernel by not letting anyone in, instead of protecting from the inside?? They have a crappy suite of softwares and they are trying to gain some advertisement by blaming Microsoft, who actually are in the right this time around ( Rarely that happens lol ).

Score: 0

By UTAKER

edited Oct 3, 2006 - 9:09 PM

Totally agree with O'Brien's point of view

Moreover, I stopped using Symantec products because of them being memory hungry, whereas other products could do the same or better job while being less processor hungry and taking less memory.

For the companies who just whine because of any enhancement/progress in others product: "go make your own OS and make programs for it or deal with the reality about why computers were made in the first place"

Score: 0

By huttman

posted Oct 3, 2006 - 10:52 AM

i cried when symantec bought veritas :(

I sigh every time i run into a clients machine that has symantic AV installed, hell we have it here at work installed on our machines because clients do. The AV sucks in general. Im actually glad to see M$ rebel against them. Go Kaspersky

Score: 0

By betanewsjunkie

posted Oct 2, 2006 - 2:54 PM

The ONLY issue is whether the Microsoft AntiVirus products can change the Kernel through inside knowledge. If they can't then it is a level playing field, and let the best AV product win.

Score: 0

By eunichman

posted Oct 1, 2006 - 4:58 PM

problem solver.... no program including anything from Microsoft - will be allowed to access the kernel... so now noone can complain about anti-competitive behavior. kernel updates will be released as service packs not patches and instead of calling them service packs they will be considered major upgrades and labelled accordingly.

Score: 0

By Scotch Moose

posted Oct 1, 2006 - 11:31 AM

Microsoft is in a real pickle. They have a history of anti-competitive behavior and convictions on three continents for leveraging their monopoly to disadvantage competitors.

Now they are finally getting serious about their greatest failing, but it's 10 years too late. There is already a huge market for security products that patch up the holes in Windows. The only way Microsoft can do it right looks just like bundling to put competitors out of business.

When you are on probation you are not allowed to have a gun, even if you have snakes in your yard.

Score: 0

By crashoverride

posted Oct 1, 2006 - 12:17 AM

This the problem with being a parasite.

Score: 0

By Yakumo

edited Sep 30, 2006 - 11:14 AM

>dual post oops

Score: 0

By Yakumo

posted Sep 30, 2006 - 11:13 AM

hmm, symantec base a business model on fixing problems in someone else's product, and then get pissed off when the original manufacturer take steps to try and make the new version of their product suck less in the first place.

erm,
tough s***

Score: 0

By x-ray

posted Sep 30, 2006 - 4:41 AM

Try to patch a kernal with using money, it is called 3-part programs

Try to patch a kernal without money, it is called ' the next genration proctions systems '

Score: 0

By GS5

edited Sep 29, 2006 - 8:27 PM

It's always a no win situation for M$. If there was no patchguard people would criticize them for not having something like patchguard. It’s their OS and they have a right to protect it anyway they can. If they’re doing it the right way is a different story.

But does anyone really give a damn what symantec says? As far as I’m concerned they suck big time. They really need to step back look at their software. Maybe learn a thing or two from Eset's NOD32.

NOD32 rulez !!!

Score: 0

By Ramhound

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 4:20 PM

Flibbery, I agree Vista should restore a file if an change is made that isn't done by Microsoft. The problem is how do you keep track of said changes, that took place before it that were legit?

Even if Microsoft only allow changes to certain files, which is updated to include new protected files, how do you keep track of backups of said new files.

Here is the problem with said computers today, perhaps Microsoft after Vista will solve it, a drive that will has a .0001% fail rate that keeps track of said files. That can only be accessed by the OS itself, what I am saying is I suppose, a flash drive that is built into the computer but is never access by a human.

One could argue that Windows could connect to the internet, and compare the file, but what about those times when said computer does not have access to the computer.

I hope Vista will have some sort of feature, that keeps track of changes to the system that could be unwanted, and you could restore the original files.

There has to be a way to make a folder unreadable by any User within Windows ( future feature, I am clearly not saying it is possible, just from a design point of view ), that could be just the "core" files of the OS. Then within the "core" files a seperate folder that can be read and modified by the user.

Basicly saying, what system32 ( where the wga files are ) would be in another folder. Perhaps even the folder within that folder couldn't be modified. Trying to get away from hidden/fake/hostile process that look like legit files.

Anyways I hope Vista will make companies produce better software, since Microsoft I hope will have done the same ( ie Vista will be better then XP ).

Am I going to get Vista right away, I am not sure, depends on some factors.

Score: 0

By flibberyGiveIt

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 3:35 PM

Shut down the system if it detects a change to the Kernel?
Sounds stupid to me: New HD, and this one program kept crashing. Eventually checked the disk surface, found that part of the program was on a bad disk sector.
I guess Microsoft has never heard of repairing anything--that is if the Vista can detect a change it should be able to change it back.
http://parchive.sourceforge.net

Score: 0

By Neoprimal

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 1:41 PM

What are they so scared of? There's absolutely no way MS is going to lock it up and prevent access by ligitimate AV and other utility software. Maybe they're scared of licensing fees for the right to access? I dunno'....but this only serves to incriminate Symantec, at least a little bit.

Score: 0

By freaktmp

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 11:59 AM

If Symantec is denied access to the Vista kernel, maybe we'll finally see some Symantec products that don't cause more problems than they solve!

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 2:24 PM

That's what I was thinking...

Score: 0

By guitardave78

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 7:45 AM

Symantec want to worry more about improving Norton!!
In the last 2 weeks I have been asked to help 3 people whose computer has died after installing Norton Internet Security.
The fact they have had to release an external un installer is proof that there are more things for them to worry about than Microsoft trying to make Vistas kernel secure!!

Score: 0

By kronix2

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 6:23 AM

Nobody can ask Microsoft to open up a hole so others can develop products which close the hole.

That doesn't mean Symantec's other concerns aren't justified. Windows Defender should be easily disabled or replacable with another product, for instance.

Score: 0

By xyzcb1

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 9:52 AM

Go tell that to the Judge to awarded millions to Real Network. Or tell that to EU that you can easily d/l another media player to replace WMP or get FF or Opera that replace IE.

Score: 0

By Frostek

posted Oct 2, 2006 - 1:46 PM

Really? Perhaps you should check your dictionary and see what the word "replace" means.

Does IE or WMP become uninstallable, just because I install Firefox/Opera or VLC? No, but that's what I want. I want an OS where the browser and the media player are removable applications.

It's not a lot to ask.

There's also no real reason why they couldn't be removable, other than Microsoft's insatiable urge to dominate every computing market, by hook or by crook.

Score: 0

By cousinkix1953

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 12:32 AM

I didn't have any problem installing an updated version of the free AVAST anti-virus on a computer using the latest VISTA 5728 build. Symantec looks silly claiming that Microsoft prevents us from using another product.

Why does the EU waste it's time refereeing the pi$$ing contests started by American companies like REAL and Symantec? Let them fight those stupid battles in a United States District Court instead...

Score: 0

By IceyKola

posted Sep 30, 2006 - 7:26 PM

Patch Guard is a feature only in the x64 version of vista. x86 is still open. That's what I read somewhere.

Score: 0

By L3thal

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 10:16 PM

This kinda reminds me of how law enforcement agencies are always talking about how they want a peaceful, crime-free society...while that would be great and all, they would also be out of a job. Symantec makes money from Windows insecurities, if Windows is secure, they don't make money.

Score: 0

By Joffi

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 10:01 PM

I'm one of those that usually cheers against MS in these suits and issues. However, in this I side with MS.

The integrity of the OS is at issue. Securing and maintaining that integrity is not only the right of the OS devs, but their obligation. An operating system core that is not as bulletproof as possible is one that is less stable and unable to BE an operating system.

Score: 0

By cranbers

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 9:47 PM

"Field makes the promise that, "If the operating system detects an unauthorized patch of certain data structures or code it will initiate a shut down of the system."

Haha, sounds like the perfect oportunity for a virus that restarts the system over and over and over. All you have to do is pretend to be a patch for the system. Make it apart of the start up sequence.

Score: 0

By ds0934

posted Sep 30, 2006 - 10:29 PM

Have you tried to do this with build 5600? I don't see how you could.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 29, 2006 - 8:39 AM

As stated below, any virus that can do that can simply initiate the shutdown API, so why bother trying to patch the kernel?

Score: 0

By divinelogic

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 8:27 PM

The "root" problem does not have anything to do with Symantec, MacAfee, Sophos, or any other security software vendors. The root problem is Microsoft.

Why are there so many viruses, worms, spyware, and the like for the Windows platform, compared to other operating system platforms like Mac OS X, Fedora, Ubuntu, Solaris?

Is it because Windows is less secure?

No!
It's because 75 to 85% of all the computers in the world are ran by Microsoft Operating Systems. Therefor, those who do write viruses or try to hack into systems concentrate on breaking this platform.

Vista's not going to be any different.
There's still going to be viruses, worms, trojan horses, and spyware that will affect Vista, because those who write the scripts will learn the ins and outs of Vista, and eventually break it, as they have every other Microsoft operating system since Microsoft's acquisition of Dos (Bought outright for $50,000).

Does this mean Mac OS X, Solaris, Fedora, Ubuntu, Suse, Mandrake, or any other Opensource code is more secure?

No!
It's so easy to hack a Mac, even a 5 year old could do it. All you have to do is put the Mac OS install CD/DVD in the disc drive, reboot and press C, and go to the utilities menu to reset the master password.

If you don't have a Mac OS CD/DVD, (like an iBook or iMac won't boot to retail Mac OS Install Discs), you can boot into single user mode by pressing "Command - S" from boot, and use the following commands to gain access to the Mac.

/sbin/fsck -y
/sbin/mount -uw /
rm /var/db/.AppleSetupDone

What this does is delete the file that tells the operating system the setup is done. After deleting the file, you can reboot and it will go into the second part of the install phase, where it asks for the name and password of the master account. This will give you complete access to anything you need.

Sure, there are programs out there you can download and install that will enable password protection in single user mode, or from booting to CD/DVD, but you can easily bypass all that by removing the memory sticks and replacing them.

This will remove any openfirmware password.

I have successfully done this on the latest patched version of Mac OS X, 10.4.7.

My reason for mentioning all this information is to prove what I have said above.
It's not a 3rd party software problem, it is Microsoft in general.

Too many people know the Truth about Microsoft, and that is why no matter how hard they try, Microsoft will never have a completely secure operating system.

I do not condone Hacking, but I know how to, it's a part of my job!

Score: 0

By btn

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 9:25 PM

divinelogic: In general, you're pwned if someone has physical access to your machine. Apple does let you prevent what you describe:

http://docs.info.apple.c...icle.html?artnum=106482

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 9:15 PM

Err, it takes about 15 seconds to reset the Administrator passwords in XP... I think Mac still has a 'one-up' on that one. But we're not talking about physical access to the machine - it's a moot point then, because accessing just about any system is relatively easy.

Nor is the issue remote hacking - if a skilled hacker really wants in to your home machine, then they can probably do it.

What IS the issue is spyware and all it's related malware. These are the ones that create bot-nets, steal confidential data and reap millions (billions?) in advertising money. And Windows is THE platform to do it on - regardless of WHY (insecure OS or just the most popular). The fact remains that if you are using the minority systems like OSX or a flavour of Linux, your risk is practically zero when it comes to this kind of threat. Thus, these OSes ARE actually safer for home users.

Score: 0

By ds0934

edited Sep 30, 2006 - 10:33 PM

Holy cow. That's very short-sighted. Can you imagine the "average" home user trying to install an app on Linux? I don't care how dumbed-down the system may be (Ubuntu 6 for example), some things require some real effort to make them work. The average home user that only touches their PC to do eBay, Travelocity and maybe Turbo-Tax, already believes XP is too complicated. Now you're saying Linux would be better for them?!?!?! OSX maybe, sure, I could buy that. But Linux?????

Even with OSX, they'd have to toss out their hardware and buy new hardware. 99.99% of "average" users won't do that.

Score: 0

By rayz66

edited Sep 30, 2006 - 3:44 AM

The fact remains that if you are using the minority systems like OSX or a flavour of Linux, your risk is practically zero when it comes to this kind of threat. Thus, these OSes ARE actually safer for home users.

That's some pretty weird logic there.

Stop using Windows because it's popular and well supported?

What happens when everyone switches to Mac or Linux? They will become more popular and the attacks will increase.

But if we stick with your line of thinking, the best thing is for home users to STAY AWAY from Macs and Linux; this will prevent widespread adoption and keep the platforms virus and spyware free ... for the low numbers that currently use them.

Score: 0

By GCoder

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 5:53 PM

Peers from the green side of the fence...

Score: 0

By Galway

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 5:47 PM

With a more secure kernel, the need for Symantec to unleash there products to prevent system access by viri, Trojan and spy ware seams to be not needed. Antivirus can concentrate on being lean, mean killin machines and not the bloated, resource hogging monsters they have evolved into. The evolution of AV software has seen the big guns desire to go for the kitchen sink approach to integrate everything into a product that has grown into a product that stands on allot of toes. AV, AS (Antispyware), firewall, resource monitor, heuristic scanning, malicious code scanning …. It is big business. And now it appears the windows platform is evolving into a beast that does not seam to need as much code to protect the kernel, therefore allowing them to concentrate on detection/ prevention and if all else fails cure and all of a sudden Symantec don’t like it LOL

Just because company A makes a good AV, doesn’t mean it makes a good AS or firewall. To be honest I prefer to choose each component separately since I believe this to make more sense

Sophos seams to manage itself well, we a good update and integration system that has been protecting out domain for a while now, including the laptops not part of the domain and to be honest I like it allot.

I welcome a more secure kernel … I commend MS for this step in the right direction.

Score: 0

By joeshmoe7

edited Sep 28, 2006 - 5:19 PM

"If the operating system detects an unauthorized patch of certain data structures or code it will initiate a shut down of the system."

Woahhh!!! So someone could basically write a virus that, continually tries to write to certain data areas and windows will basically keep shutting down as soon as this happens. Denial of service ... maybe?

BTW i hope they don't give anything to NORTON.. ... man what a mess they have been making of windows for all these years.

Score: 0

By sfield

edited Sep 28, 2006 - 6:40 PM

Keep in mind that if an attacker has access to attempt a kernel patch, they can just use the existing usermode InitiateSystemShutdown() API instead. Patchguard is not creating a new DoS attack here.

Score: 0

By joeshmoe7

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 11:24 PM

yeah, it was weak lol

Score: 0

By pjlasl

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 5:48 PM

i was thinking the same thing when i read that sentence...continuous restart!

Score: 0

By Ramhound

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 4:58 PM

I am torn how I feel about what Microsoft is doing. There are two sides of this story. The first is that of Microsoft trying to kill the 'old' way of hurting a user's system, by using the kernel itself against the user ( malware, that sort of thing ). On the other hand, by having the ability to communicate with the kernel itself themselfs, is unfair to another company. What I hope can happen is, they provide enough things to work with, so another company can upgrade their current software. Perhaps not the same features, I mean do we really want programs to detect Malware in vista, wouldn't it be better if the OS itself could handle it?

I know my answer, I just hope these companies can break away from the last 8 years, and find things they can add to their products.

I hope vista is the end of SpyWare, one can only hope.

Score: 0

By Hellcat_M

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 4:34 PM

If Symantec got what they wanted they would just screw things up. Their anti-virus sucks, slows things down and when I used it last it messed up my system so bad I had to reinstall (probably because it did something to the kernel). I think what MS is doing is a good thing, don't give everyone the combination to your lock because thats what keeps your valuebles safe.

Score: 0

By TomA102210

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 5:43 PM

"If Symantec got what they wanted they would just screw things up."
---------------------------------------------
How do you account for the fact that Symantec across the board has many, many satisfied customers? While I haven't used them in years, when I did I was quite happy with them. I know many individuals who are by no means "noobs" but rather experienced computer users and some who even work in the computer tech field who are pleased with Symantec products.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 4:58 PM

Right, the *last* people I want digging around int he kernel is Symantec.

They can't even handle the registry properly, lord only knows what Hell they'd wreak upon the kernel itself.

Score: 0

By KingMotley

posted Sep 28, 2006 - 7:34 PM

Please to be keeping all 3rd parties out of the kernel. That includes Symantec, Creative Labs, Nvidia, ATI, and definately MorePopups4u.

Score: 0