What if (a.) The user has no method of internet connection to register (Still about 70% of comps on the planet) or (b.) The user wishes to make a major change in hardware i.e. (MoBo/Everything else)?

If the user has no method to access the internet, they will have phone lines setup for this purpose.

According to the current plan, if you change your hardware you must re-register. From what i've heard, anyway.

Hey,

I'd just like to start off by saying that the passion and intelligence with which most "arguments" are made is absolutely impressive! :)

Ah, and please humor me; I haven't slept in 24 hours! *sigh*

Here goes some random thoughts based on the content in the forum (and I just red-eyed the entire damn thread):

1.> If I'm really "leasing" software from Microsoft, then how about I get my money back when I no longer use the OS? THAT would be leasing. Otherwise, I own it. Period. End of story.

2.> Hmmm... Microsoft has a policy wherein they will support their products ONLY two (2) "iterations" behind. For example, when Windows XP is released, Windows NT 4.0 will be obsolete in the sense that Microsoft will NO LONGER support it. You see, Windows NT 4.0-->Windows 2000-->Windows XP.

...Okay, great. So now what happens to Windows XP users when it's no longer supported -- will the registration servers still exist? I wonder.

3.> The EULA is a joke. I believe there was a law enacted that allowed users of software (and audio) to make ONE backup of a CD/cassette/whatever for archival purposes. I don't think that law changed; I just think every frickin' software company on the planet is conveniently ignoring it for lack of better excuse than, "the war on piracy." Furthermore, what happens if I buy and open a shrink-wrapped piece of software like Windows XP, only to find I don't agree with the EULA? I'll reiterate a point made in a much earlier post: "good luck getting the store you got it from to refund your money." And sadly, it's true.

4.> Microsoft products are overpriced, period. What possible justification could there be to charge ****ing $350 for an Operating System?!? Not only is that ridiculous, but even more so considering how Microsoft products really are... buggy, among other, less sundry things. And yes, this even includes Windows 2000 Professional, which I BOUGHT and use.

4b.> How much money is being spent on these so-called "toll-free" lines? What's that "free" line being paid for with? Yep, your hard-earned money... not Microsoft's.

4c.> How about the money spent on the activation scheme? Ditto.

I SURE AS HELL don't want the already-bloated cost of a Microsoft OS going towards crap that frankly has NOTHING to do with me!

5.> I was one of the Office 2000 Standard (Academic Version) guinea pigs. After installing the product a mere THREE TIMES on the SAME computer, the "Internet Registration" told me I exceeded the number of times I could register, and that I needed to call Micro$hit. Surely the highlight of MY day *rolls eyes*. Guess what? I spent 10 minutes online... the second time I tried. They're only open something like 9 AM to 5 PM CST, Monday through Friday. Well, glad THEY get a break and don't have to be inconvenienced. Sheesh.

6.> Preventing the copying of digital data is IMPOSSIBLE, and the sooner everyone realizes it, the better off we'll all be.

7.> Just for the record, I'm anti-WPA, anti-.NET, and I think something should be done to Microsoft, and SOON, Lest They Invoke The Hand Of God And Get b****-Slapped Hard.

8.> I think I'm fergettin stuff, so feel free to remind me. Blah.

I'm new here, this is my first post, and I hope it's worthwhile. ;)

Ciao,

-ShAdOWmoNkX :)

I think I will humor you. By start off saying that you need to get some sleep because some of your post I don't agree with, and some of it is very uneducated. I will answer in the order that you made the comments.

1) You are not leasing the software from Microsoft. However, you are paying for the software AND for a personal use policy. If you rented out a room to somebody, would you want them tearing down the walls and restructing it because they are paying for it? A better example may be the usage for a bus. It is your public money that put that bus together. It is your public money that pays the driver. That doesn't mean that you can just take an entire seat out, or even throw the driver out of the window and takeover the bus. Nor do you even have to take the bus in the first place, but you still pay for it(think of that as a benefit of the MS Software-As-A-Service plan that if you don't use it you don't pay for it)

*Please note, .NET and Software-As-A-Service are different things.

2) As for the support, Microsoft said they would continue providing support for 'legacy' products until 2003(maybe 2004). As well, there are about 50,000 different Windows-Usage books out there that one can consult as well as the internet for support. Who even calls MS tech support anymore? Most definetely not myself. Hell, why not get on Sonicblue about the support for their older products? This exact thing happens in the industry all over, again this cannot be blamed on Microsoft.

3) That law is still in effect, they are not copy protecting the CDs for that fact. Microsoft even openly ALLOWS you to make that backup for the reason of the slipstream process. One can copy the Windows 2000 CD to another CD and pack in Service Packs using instructions readily available on Microsoft's website. As well, I'm sure if you called Microsoft within a few days of buying that product and explaining the situation to them, They'd actually refund the money for the purchase. That is of course, if you pay to send the whole box to them.

4) I must agree that Microsoft's Operating Systems are badly overpriced. I feel that if they expect to lower the piracy rate of their product they should definetely drop the price of it. That would stop MOST of the piracy of the software. As for the Software-As-A-Service scheme, if they ever expect that to be successful a price drop is an absolute MUST. Although I doubt it will be a big boom in the industry, and it will probably die out. Windows 2000 is of course buggy, All software is buggy. To claim software is not buggy is like to claim the software works 100% correctly in all aspects. It happens. When you have to make universal code, a set of code operations that work on one machine might not work another. I.E. maybe they have to code the window bar to align properly with set of drivers, and on another set that same code crashes. It happens at times, that's programs. NOBODY IS PERFECT. If you even read anything about XP, You would know that Microsoft has plans to release a Driver SDK, which will give you control over the drivers that are in your sytem. Nice little thing to have for those programmers out there.

4B) Toll free lines are paid for by the government, as well as taxpayer money. The amount that you pay on toll free line costs is infitecimal. As well, if you put it THAT way. Then your money is ALSO going to toll free pornographic lines for a bunch of sick perverts.

4C) The activation scheme. Do you even know what it is? It is nearly the same thing as they have had before. You register the product, however this time the product creates a hardware hash, sends that KEY to MS(along with the product code), and then the MS decoder server sends a key back to place in a setting somewhere. On boot, it detects to make sure that hardware is still in place. Hence the reason why you must reactivate it if you install new hardware. I have no clue how MS is going to handle these keys, because with this process sending in a hardware hash if you redo the components in your system will flag up MS showing that you tried to register it twice. Again, this is something that most likely end up being cracked. I'm sure crackers are out there hard at work on a keygenerating program as we speak. To me, it's a wasteful idea.

5) Installed the product 3 times on the same computer? For what purpose? Obviously I think there's something suspicious about that because if that were the case than you wouldn't have any problems with MS for it.

6) Read my above statements about this.

7) That's nice that you're Anti-everything. How about UCITA(www.ucita.org)? The other companies are sneaking right up in the dark with this one because right now the country's focus is entirely on Microsoft. According to an episode of SiliconSpin(TechTV), A guy who is entirely ANTIUCITA said that Microsoft had the BEST ideas concerning the user's rights when it comes to software, however he refused to state the worst.

8) I think you're forgetting to read the news and read up and even test the products(legally or even illegaly. personally I feel that all the testing MS can get with the software whether it be legal or illegal should be considered so as to relieve many bugs for the release date).

Hope this clears some things up.

~Mike

Mike,

1.> Uhhhh... read the EULA. They OWN the software, you ARE effectively "leasing" it.

...Yes, I know the diffs between .NET and SAS.

2.> HAHAHAHAHA... are you REALLY THAT suckered into believing Microsoft and their promise of support? Money is their bottom line, and it is NOT in their best interest to continue to support "legacy" products... it's their best interest to have everyone upgrade constantly, hence .NET and/or SAS. Those ideas will be in the trash bin in no time by their OWN action if everyone doesn't jump into the boat.

And frankly, not everyone will.

So, that said, I really think they'll just be making ridiculous "promises" but do what suits them best regardless... by that point, many people will have forgotten their promise and no love will have been lost.

Besides, the point is not JUST support, but the damn activation servers. If those go down, you can likely say "buh-bye" to unlocking your copy of XP.

Furthermore, sureeeee... it's okay that the majority of people who work in support are rude and don't give two craps about you. Yeah, that's okay *rolls eyes*. You're like the little kid who needs to be reminded of the adage, "If everyone else jumps off a building, would you?" I've dealt wtih plenty of Tech Support people, and guess what? Microsoft is the ONLY one that consistently sucks (then again, I don't rely heavily on tech support). HP is fine, for example.

3.> Wow, really? Then why is it SO HARD for the average user to burn a copy of one of their CD's, if the law is still in effect and they are abiding by it?? Hell, I wanted to make a copy of my BOUGHT Flight Simulator 2000 Professional Editon, and guess what? Sure, I can do it... but the average user using, say, Adaptec Easy CD-Creator can't. I tried it that way. So, uh, yeah. `Nuff said.

4.> Yep, it's overpriced, and yep, they've gotta lower it. Nevertheless, you still sound like an ill-informed Microsoft loyalist (and not just cuz you disagree with me). Yes, all software is buggy; I'm well aware of that. But NO, Microsoft's interpretation of "buggy" is NOT your typical interpretation. All of Microsoft's Gold Code products are effectively "beta" when compared to OTHER products in the same playing field. AOL used to be the same, but they've much improved (and I'm no fan of AOHELL). Microsoft's level of Quality Assurance sucks. I use the previously-noted comment about Windows 98/98 SE as an example.

4B.> Not that I use porn lines (I'm not desperate, thankyouverymuch), but if they're such sick perverts, than how come A LOT of people use those kinda lines? Hmmm? Late-night television advertising? FWIW, the porn industry is booming. People like you, who think that they're PERFECT and KNOW IT ALL (and everyone else who doesn't fit your "standard of perfection be damned)... are annoying.

4C.> Of course I know what WPA is, d00d -- and obviously, YOU don't. It is NOT the same thing they "had" as before. And I reiterate, I have Office 2000 Academic Version, and damn, does it suck. Microsoft even said that Office 2000 was a test bed for WPA, and WPA is just a "revamped" version of it. WPA IS GONNA BE SUCKING WORSE... you can take that to the bank!

...What's a wasteful idea? Cracking or Microsoft's WPA?

5.> Uh, for what purpose? I formatted my computer three times, and I honestly don't GIVE A s*** what you think... let alone Microsoft. If I want to install MY OWN bought product on MY OWN computer three times, that's my business. I don't have to answer to Microsoft for something I BOUGHT and AM USING LEGALLY (note: I said the SAME COMPUTER). And I didn't have "problems," per-se, but taking 10 minutes on the phone after only 3 activations, and not being able to do it on the weekend sucks. I forsee bigger problems, however, if I register again (please don't even tell me Microsoft's support is getting awards, cuz I have my fair-share of horror stories... and I'm well within the boundaries of the law!).

Microsoft's idea of "support" is to pay them for everything. Ha, I was getting the Microsoft Platform SDK recently, and one of the files on their server had a problem -- NOT my computer -- I confirmed this. Guess what? They wanted me to PAY for "support" when it was a website/server prob. This was just recent example, and by no means the worst I've seen.

6.> Blah.

7.> I'm not anti-everything. I'm anti-Suckers Like You, though (who believe everything... yes, the sky is green, everything is a conspiracy, blahblahblah). UCITA sucks royal donkey... uh... privates... too. Wow, you're using someone else's quote in support of yours. I take it you didn't pass Debating 101?

It doesn't MATTER what someone else says... unless you're the kind of person who belives everything you read/see/hear. Think for yourself, then I'll listen.

8.> TEST the products?! Are you high on crack or just stupid? YES, I test them. I have the beta of XP. I have just about every version of Windows ever made. Please, don't try to insult my intelligence cuz I'm in a very large and prestigious technological college with Information Technology as my Major. Not that this = good students, but still... it says something. I know my stuff, thank you.

The only "things" you "cleared up" were that you don't know as much as you would have yourself and everyone else believe. The attitude you pulled, your obliviousness to it, and the fact that you didn't even know half of what you were talking about is rather annoying.

Later,

-ShAdOWmoNkX :)

1) Yes, I do read the EULAs. Personally, I also know that End *User* License Agreement stands by itself flat out telling you that it is NOT YOUR SOFTWARE.

2) Why pin just that on Microsoft? Do you honestly think that any other companies still support their products. A friend of mine owned a Packard Bell computer, tried to contact the company about resetting the bios password(since removing the battery didn't do a thing for it), and the support for it is NOWHERE IN SITE. Again, you should not pin that support problem on Microsoft because there are so many millions of other ways to get support that by wasting your time AND money calling Microsoft whom most likely WILL say "that is a problem with their software, call them. " is a totally pointless and ameteurish task. Many other companies as well do not offer great tech support, Creative Labs, for example. Hell, they don't even have TOLL FREE SUPPORT LINES. So not only must you wait 20 minutes for someone to talk to, you have to actually PAY FOR IT ON YOUR LONG DISTANCE BILL.

As for the jumping off a bridge, if everyone else jumped off a bridge I'd be sitting there partying and laughing saying "There is a God after all." I do not follow the crowds, to follow the crowd would mean go with Linux, hate MS, and hate Intel; for no obvious reasons(since none of the companies involved claim anything that you all people fed into their words).

3) The average user most likely doesn't need to burn a copy of the CD in the first place, the average user, I hope you do know, is quite dumb. That is where MS will fault and I'm sure you read that in one of my previous postings. Then again, I've had many more problems out of AECDC than just that.

4) Gold code doesn't necessarily mean NOT BUGGY. They go with what the market demands. The market demands more out of Intel, causing them to rush production of chips, and when they finally get them out it pushes AMD to rush chip production, etc. I'm sure if you took apart every bit of hardware in your system, and knew the whole schematics you'd probably be saying "why'd they do that? that sucks. that's just a work-around, that doesn't fix anything". Again in this area you are applying absolutely no thoughtful logic to the conditions of the programming of the software. As well, MS' official standpoint(at least from what I've heard) Bugs = "Unknown Features".
And apparently, Firestone's quality insurance sucks as well.

4B) People like yourself are the absolutely most annoying people that exist(aside from many other aspects). Because you completely down a product that you don't have to even use. You sit there and say how much the company sucks. That's right, the company sucks. The company is one of the largest, most successfull richest in the world and their company and products suck. To apply that to the rest of the industry would mean that every other major company who has been successful sucks as well. You don't get that rich and have that much power with crap products, that's for sure.

4C) WPA is of no obvious concern to any standard users until they go installing the thing multiple times. Then again, there's nothing wrong with that as they could call MS, and tell them their product code and be on their way. Yes, MS must revise this a little. And, the waste is the WPA, not the cracking.

5) Hmm, as I said before to complain after 3 registrations is actually quite fishy again. I mean, 3 registrations would probably cover me for a whole year if not more than that. Obviously I must disagree entirely with you "installing it on the same computer."
Again I feel yes, MS should revise this. I.E. if the system in which it is installing to matches the hardware hash that is kept on MS' registration server, It should see that and assume that you are installing it to the same computer, therefore saving time.

7) Yes, I am using someone else's quotes. Why? because quoting someone with a little more merit than yourself or myself at least 1) shows that I am actually concerned about these issues, and 2) their words are much better than yours in any case.

8) Damn, if you're very prestigious in college Hell I could beat not only your scores, but also do it on a full scholarship. You show very little knowledge about anything concerning ALL THE ISSUES related to this. You are one of those MS haters who just doesn't want their computer info given to someone else. Next thing you'll tell me is that you pay for your cable tv, electric, and telephone bills with a false social security # and a false name.

To the end I am no Microsoft loyalist, however I do defend people/companies who get a bad rap for no apparent reasons. You cannot tell me AT ALL that Linux is any bit as easy to setup as MS' products even WITH WPA. I bet you spend more time sitting there setting up a whole linux install, compiling the kernel, getting drivers to work, playing with .conf files, and then running it as well as setting up another computer for a firewall than you would with any MS product. You obviously do not understand which market it is aimed for. Windows is not aimed for the same market as Linux is. Windows is aimed at the average home user and to the new user market. The computer market(in just the US???) is only 60% of the population. That's still a long way to go. If you knock that down about 20% use Linux. Then there are probably the 10% of THAT that know how to use it CORRECTLY AND KNOW WHAT IT'S FOR. And you see why Linux just doesnt hit mainstream as much as I'm sure you'd like it.

Do not hold an arguement with pure passion without information because you will not win. You probably spend a majority of your time drunk off your a** to do anything even remotely concerning your college work.

In my experience, when something as controversial as Micorosoft's compulsory licencing arrangement stirs things up like this has, the reasons behind it are seldom what they say they are, or even what they seem to be. A licencing scheme to fight piracy that doesn't include a price break just doesn't wash with me. So what then?

Microsoft has stated that they want to move to a .NET way of doing business. By making customers register, restricting their use of the XP product and buying licences each year, what they are trying to achieve is an incremental re-conditioning of their customers. In other words they are softening us up. They are getting us used to the idea that 1. The software isn't yours even though you've paid for it. 2. You have to keep paying for it year after year after year. What? That's just like .NET isn't it?!!!
The public's current attitude towards computers and software is that these things are tools. Microsoft believes and is trying to swing our attitudes around towards a view that software it is proprietary secret that provides a service. (In other words, "That's mine. You can use it, but don't look at it, don't smell it, don't loan it out, don't have fun with it, at all costs don't complain if it doesn't work and last of all pay me what I demand for it's use, in perpetuity!) But the market place simply isn't ready for a rented software business. Dropped into the marketplace without preconditioning the masses, this .NET product would fall flat on it's face. So if this key move by Microsoft to make registration compulsory backfires and people reject the notion that they must pay for the privilege of using Microsoft products over and over and over again, then .NET would and should wind up on the scrap heap of history's stupid marketing schemes.

So ladies and gentlemen, after years of swallowing Microsoft's new and improved versions of Windows year after year only to find that it still doesn't deliver, these bandits from Redmond are now going for the jugular. Now you are seeing how a monopoly really behaves. They want total and absolute control over the software and the cash. They want everybody paying for it. All the time. Always. Forever.

Well, what is so different about this and museums? You have to pay each time you want to go into it. How about the public transportation. You PAY each time you use it. It's there for PUBLIC use, they loan it out, and you PAY per use. How about the telephones? Internet providers? Cable TV? Satellite TV? Credit cards!?!?!??!!?
It's all the same you pay in little bits over a long period of time. That's how it works. Sure, the price MS might ask could possibly be dirt ridiculous however it's just like what we use already. I honestly don't think software should take this turn, but it might just do it.

"So ladies and gentlemen, after years of swallowing Microsoft's new and improved versions of Windows year after year only to find that it still doesn't deliver"
In response to that, how does it NOT deliver? Can you play games on it? Yes. Can you watch movies on it? Yes. Can you make webpages? Yes. Can you boot the computer? Yes. Does it support your hardware? For the most part, Yes.

Your response is total BS and it is biased beyond I don't know what. If it wasn't for MS doing this, I'm sure other companies would be doing the same thing. It's business tactics man, we are pawns to them. You are in less control of your life than you want to believe and you sit there naive as all hell.
Find me one place that it DOESN'T DELIVER WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS! It has webpage hosting, It has multimedia playback, it's easy as all hell to use. Howe does it not deliver what it is made for? It isn't MADE FOR security, NO program nor operating system has to be secure because that is not their prime directive. They do not make the OS and say "Here, all you hackers hack it up." That is something that is done outside.
The operating does what it does and it does a damn good job at it. If you really dislike the operating system that much, THEN DON'T COMPLAIN, BUY LINUX, DROP ALL MS PRODUCTS AND MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN OPERATING SYSTEM TO COMPETE WITH IT. IF NOT, SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND LIVE WITH IT!

Sure, the Software-As-A-Service is not a plan I favor but it might be the only way to go at this point in time. I mean, throughout history having a King/Dictator having a king/dictator worked for quite some time, and we eventually found something better. It will just take time. You can't expect it to happen over night the internet is evolving so rapidly we've experienced thousands of years of evolution in it.
From the time of small little sects, and a few of those having minimal links. To a worldwide Chaos, now to the dictating government. What comes next in History? We throw it all out, revolt, takeover, and create something better.

One of the more curious aspects of participating in discussion forums is the all too frequent problem of interpreting responses. You've completely lost me 4KO.

I actually thought I was pretty clear in my posting. Let me boil it down for you. For years Microsoft has delivered to us an operating system which I think fails to provide the stability required to really be considered a superior product. With each successive version, they have promised more stability and fewer crashes. I have run every version of Windows since it came out, and I find that no matter what flavour you want to talk about, all of them crash with similar frequency. I'm running ME now, and I think this has to be the biggest disappointment with my brand new system crashing at least once a day. Hence, my opinion that Microsoft has yet to deliver an operating system for the Home PC that works satisfactorily.

Now, if you can follow me a bit further, you will understand my cynicism when I suggest that with the impending introduction of XP products, of which an operating system is one and touted to be ROCK SOLID, I find it unbelievable that they would suddenly decide to introduce a compulsory registration and licencing system. A system that coincidentally could over time condition Microsoft's customers into a state of mind that would more willingly accept the .NET way of doing business which would doubtfully survive if it were introduced today. Do you not wonder at all how long Microsoft has been perfectly capable of delivering a truly stable operating system? How is it that Linux can, and Microsoft has only just in the last year or so introduced Win2000? How can Apple make an OS that runs circles around Windows? With all that money and a large customer base you might expect better right? Yet, now it appears that they are intent on telling us when, where and how their products are going to be used concurrent with a promise that it will be better than ever before. With the company's stated objective of moving to a .NET marketing strategy, I find these unanswered questions stick out like a sore thumb. Questions I asked to which you obviously could not respond to because clearly, you sir are just the sort of customer Microsoft depends on. You see, large corporations like Microsoft are very skilled at implementing long range plans and presenting them in such a way that is very appealing. In this case where they are creating so much controversy over a compulsory registration and licencing programme, their reasons seem to be to curtail the illegal copying of their products. On the surface, this sounds very legitimate and an honest man would have no problem with it. Nevertheless, they risk alienating a large segment of their market share by forging ahead with this plan, and to make a decision of this magnitude, you have to assume that the pay-off down the road must be significant. Dot Net. If Microsoft has plans to make this method of marketng their software the primary source of their revenue I imagine the rewards must be astronomical.

For my part, I like Microsoft's products. Most of them are very good. But, I don't like being herded like a head of cattle and there is a definite saw off between being treated like a servant instead of a paying customer with the intelligence to consider an alternative product.

As for your comments that I am full of BS and that I should sit down, shut up and live with it.... You would do well to learn some manners. You come across like an uneducated cretan who couldn't rationalize your way out of a wet paper bag.

This is what I like about you "Linux Revolutioners". You are just so, FULL OF KNOWLEDGE *cough* sh*t *cough*. (And no that doesn't go to any of you true-blue linux users that know HOW TO USE THE OPERATING SYSTEM and KNOW WHAT IT IS FOR.

Where should I start?
I read you stating that your computer crashes, a lot. Well, let me put it this way. If your computer is highly unstable, that's something you did, not Microsoft. I have ran every MS Operating system(except the NTs up until 2000) and I never had stability problems in my life that even once I could remotely blame on the Operating System. Hmm, Maybe I know how to correctly build a computer? Let me guess, you're running an Athlon system and you probably have at least 1 device overclocked.
The only instabilities I have ever encountered were if 1) I had a virus, 2) I had bought a defective motherboard from Intel(CC820), so they did a recall and I got a VC820 and free RDRAM. Since then, my computer has been stable with EVERYTHING that I put on the system. That includes Windows 98, AND Windows 2000(as well as RH7,W95 on vmware).
Major system instabilities cannot be blamed largely on the software, because it's more than likely your computer isn't hooked up right in some aspect.

To make the comparison vs. Linux cannot be made. And here is why.

Microsoft NEVER claimed Windows 3.11,95,98,98SE,Me to be MORE STABLE than Linux, EVER. Not a single posting. They have only made the claim that it is more stable than the product before it. Only in Windows 2000 have I ever heard of such a thing as Microsoft touting around how it is better than the competition for servers. Technically this statement is not very far from the truth.

Another reason why the comparison cannot be made, is because Linux was NEVER MADE FOR THE HOME USER. There is not a single Linux distro that I have seen, not even commercial products(so don't pull out Mandrake on me), that is anywhere near simple enough for a home user. Most true-blue linux users cannot even stand the GUI interfaces(KDE,Gnome,X) that come with some distros, and I don't blame them. The GUIs with Linux distros is a hell of a lot WORSE than Windows'. For one, it's a pain to try to find anything. For 2, 99% of all the applications are some form of Computer Monitoring tool. For 3, it eats up resources compared to Windows like I don't know what.
As for MacOS, Microsoft helped to bring Apple back, Apple was about dead and Microsoft helped the company on its feet a few years back. Apple isn't even in the same market group as Microsoft.

New Home User - Apple/Windows XP
Experienced Home User - Windows(XP)
Business Workstation - Windows(XP)
Small Business Server - Linux/Windows NT
Large Business Server - Unix/Windows/Novell

Look at the flexibility at that. Look at the stages in which Microsoft has a handle. There is no MacOS for high powered servers(I could be wrong, point me out a URL if I am) that I have seen, nor have I seen a Linux for home users. Microsoft has created an exceptional product that spans across multiple uses. Linux/Unix were not, they were made for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to work as a server. Honestly, they could be better than Windows as running as a server, but they are not as flexible and that is where Microsoft wins.

Selling the Operating System, Market dominance, a better product, have little to do with any operation/stability of the operating system. It has to do with versatility, it must appeal to the market in more than one way. That is what Microsoft has done, and that is what they are contuing to do. The market demands for an Operating system that they can install for a home user. Business demand a product that they can deploy across hundreds of computers with ease, All of that can be done with Windows. Linux, again just can't even touch that.

Windows XP is no different from any of these, to be honest, I happen to really like the OS. Sure it's just a tad unstable right now, but what do you expect for a beta release?

As for .NET, .NET is a promising technology that will more than likely somehow fall through or could work. There is no guarantee that it can. Hell, be thankful MS is the only one doing this and it isn't ALL the companies teaming up because we'd be up to our ears in sh*t then. At least with having just one company doing it, it opens the possibility that the others will never adopt this strategy.

As well, I think that MS is okay with this product Activation lock. What is wrong with it? Only a pirate could complain about such a lock. Personally, I do feel their current licensing scheme does not follow for the benefit of the user, but I'm sure enough b****ing and complaining from a mass user market will change. As i said earlier, adopt a 5 computer, single user, non-commercial use license for the $179 asking price(Since I'm 100% sure it will be that price because every other MS product is).

Being herded like cattle, you are only herding yourself like cattle. You just 'want to be different' by heralding Linux as this phenomonal OS when I can guarantee you, as well as anybody who truly knows how to test software for what it is made for, that it is definetely FAR behind on the scale of anything near usability for anything other than some form of server/firewall.

As for that, I must go. Enjoy
~Mike

And real quick, Maybe you should take a look at UCITA long before you even DARE complain about .NET

UCITA is much more worse than .NET ever could be, I live in one of the only 2 US states that adopt the current UCITA law, and I tell you what you'll really hate the rest of the companies for this one.
Microsoft actually has the best standpoint concerning UCITA.(www.ucita.org)

UCITA boils down to "Here is our product, if it doesnt work, screw you, you paid for it and that's it." At least right now you can return the product to the company saying that it is not what you desire.

I know I said I would be gone but I have a quick note that I thought of while eating.

This market dominance, that is supplying a product that can be used in many situations whether it be home user or corporate market, has been proven effective in MANY aspects of the computer Industry.

Monitors, being a major one. Flat panels, small, large.
Video cards, Nvidia dominated because look what they did, MX,GTS,Pro,Ultra,Quadro,3.
When you have a product that is scalable with ease to fit what the market demands, it just works. Just because a certain video card isn't entirely stable with a certain driver set doesn't mean that it's Nvidia's fault, does it? No.
It doesn't matter what each little user wants, just because I want a 64 bit processor to be affordable, doesn't mean Intel will drop that $4200 projected price for an 800 mhz Itanium. When the desktop market demands the 64 bit processors, the price will drop.

Now this time, I'm gone.

You don't BUY, and PAY your hard earned money for, the museum or the train. That's the difference Microsoft Hack.

Any piece of software that crashes is at fault. If your operating system ever crashes, it is that operating system's fault! A bug in a piece of software should never bring down the entire OS. When this happens in Windows, it is true that Windows did not cause the problem, but the specific program should crash, not Windows.

Also, I can't believe that you would ever even think to say that your Windows doesn't crash! You are a very unique, I must say.

More in reference to this topic at hand, none of these activation whatever efforts matter. Millions of people spend many hours trying to crack such things. A crack will be available soon after release without doubt.

About that MS Hack business: What do we do with cars? We buy them, you keep paying a price for it(i.e. insurance). It breaks down, you FIX it. OR you pay someone else to fix it.

How about houses? You buy those too, you settle into that house for a while, a few months. The drain gets clogged. Whose fault? Not the people who built the damn house that's for sure.

As for my Windows not crashing, I consider a complete system inoperability A) when it doesn't respond and there is no way to get by it but to reboot; B) when it blue screens; C) when explorer goes down with the crash.

Very rarely have I ever seen any of those happen on a PROPERLY CONFIGURED computer. I guarantee that you have SOMETHING conflicting that causes those crashes to happen. Hey, as well...Nobody said softwrae is perfect. It's just like every other piece of software why can't it crash? Being a programmer and having to program the thing to fit every single piece of hardware is actually some work, How about you go try it? Make a largely GUI OS that does NOT CRASH. Linux doesn't crash because it's still in those DOS-like days, the command prompt typing.I guess so it doesn't crash.

As well, to blame the whole OS for the crash is very ignorant of the fact that the OS might not've crashed at all. Okay, computer freeze. OS crash? Not necessarily. How about, software sends instruction to processor, processor doesnt like instruction, processor halts and wham, whole system.
This is very common with video AND sound hardware.

About Windows XP: Don't bomb the OS w/o trying it first. And I don't mean take a beta, try it, it crashes, and say how much crap it is.

That is also why there IS a choice. Choose to use Linux, have more trouble than a Windows user when it comes to setting it up, software, AND HACKERS. 99% of the time the reason people in Windows get hacked is because they have either A) downloaded a trojan, or B) downloaded a virus of some sort. In my eyes Linux is just as insecure as Windows because it CAN BE HACKED. If you know anything about services and the like, I bet you Windows 95 with DUN1.2(I don't mean running scripts in IE to allow access to the computer, either.) is much more secure than a RedHat 7.1 default install.

Windows XP will NOT make it into the home user market as well as Microsoft thinks it will. Nobody is going to just rush out and get Windows XP as soon as it comes out. This also is not helped by the horror stories running around the internet. They are going to have to make it look MUCH more enticing for people to want to buy it, and even then it will be most difficult for people who have never had major experience with a computer in the first place. I know this could be helped by stating "UPGRADE WITHOUT LOSING YOUR DATA! IT'S THAT EASY!", However such statements would be not true in 100% of the cases. As well, for those people really scared to upgrade their operating system, They should set-up Upgrade Stations in which people can take their computers to get it converted over to XP. This will as well help feed it into the user base. In my eyes there is nearly absolutely NO reason not to switch over to the operating system. It finally bridges that gap that has been hanging over Microsoft's products for years, it's about damn time.

Now, to get to the Product Activation. This feature in NO WAY is a problem for those users who LEGALLY buy the software. However, the one thing that I have a problem with is the cost. See, You buy the software and you get it for ONE computer. Which I totally disagree with enforcing activation in that fact. I believe that since I am a legitimate buyer of a product, I should be able to install it within my household for all personal, non-commercial use PCs. Since many households now have more than ONE computer, that old licensing applied is never going to work. If you register the product, Microsoft should give like, a 5 computer HOME USER license for their product. Not many households need more than a 5 user license. Or even work out some form of deal, but Definetely DO NOT charge for the extra computers to have it installed.
Other than that, I honestly don't have a problem with product activation as it CAN BE 'worked around' or 'disabled' in one form or another. I know MS is totally saying they don't wish to try to stop the professional crackers out there, however, I think they need to worry about those guys more than a friend passing his copy of the product off to another friend.
The old "1 book to 1 reader" license just cannot work in the computer software market anymore. It has grown to enormous proportions and something new must be worked out. Not Software-As-A-Service.
I also think badly of iD software for what they did with the Quake 3 CD keys, further promoting the "1 book to 1 reader" licensing scheme.

Bottom line is this: Microsoft and the other companies better start to be come flexible on licensing or else noone will buy their products. I have read the comments about testing the software in other countries, but they absolutely MUST understand that the United States culture is a much more openly 'free' one than the others. Even if we aren't, we still flaunt it around with the thought of "we can do whatever we damn please."
As for Linux, I feel that right now it is currently well out of the home user market. I agree with Microsoft computers should tailor themselves to the user(Okay, now WHERE ARE MY WINDOWS 2000 DRIVERS FOR THE CREATIVE LABS DXR 3 DECODER MS AND CREATIVE? HMM? HMM? GET 'EM OUT AND TAILOR YOUR SOFTWARE TO MY HARDWARE NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!), hehe but they still have a while to go before that is anywhere near success(such as old hardware is more than likely not going to work with XP, if it isn't compatible with 2K don't even think about XP). Operating systems should be the least of your configration problems, and Linux is still filled with many of them. I know, you linux users will say "But all you gotta do is this, this, this and this", but that is still overly complex for what an operating system SHOULD BE. The more time you waste on configuring the system is the more money lost in the business, which is why Microsoft appeals to a lot of businesses. As for the home user with that, there are still many users out there that don't even know what kind of video card and soundcard they have(these are among the first things I check on a computer I've never played with in Device Manager). So you cannot expect them to be able to install Linux let alone even know WHAT drivers to get for the hardware.
All in all, it's just not going to work with today's market and the XP project will FAIL, if the home user base doesn't switch, the companies don't switch, and then the OS has no support. It's a great operating system it just needs to be more flexible and have more support.

Hi, let me introduce myself, I am a programmer of 11 years, I've spent a lot of time in both DOS, and Win32 environments. I have seen windows evolve from the point where Trumpet Winsock was our internet connection, and we all loved netscape. I currently have a Dell Inspiron 4000 Laptop, I love it, it's got great hardware, unfortunately a winmodem but I can deal with that. I run Linux, RedHat 7.1's laptop install + extra RPMs I selected. The only reason I mention this here is because I had a painless installation, everything worked out of the box with the exception of the winmodem, which is to be expected considering it's specifically designed for windows, however, I did install an unsupported driver made by lucent + 3rd party developer, and I'm using it to post this reply right now.

I'd like to note a few things I've read in this thread of discussion and comment on them to express the needs of our current state of computing.

- For one, many people comment about using an OS besides windows. I would certainly hope you want to do that for more than just, getting away from windows, I personally have a dislike towards microsoft's marketing strategy, and I feel uncomfortable supporting a product that they produce, on the other hand; I really like the speed and versatility of the linux based OS, and the fact that it comes in so many flavors from so many different sources, 95% free, it's hard to beat. It's not the only free OS, or alternative OS out there, it's just the one I am interested in.

- Windows bad/good GUI/OS. here is a little (but really widely) known fact about windows: It is NOT original. Microsoft did not invent the basic layout of "windows" they only played on something already invented several times over for xerox and macintosh years ago. Most of the current computer users now don't even know what monochrome screens on a macintosh looked like, h3ll most people don't even know what a macintosh looks like now! My biggest issue here is with the general public's ***FEAR*** of trying something new/different. I made myself a checklist of things I did in windows, to make sure I could do all these things in Linux, i'll briefly list all of those items, and note, all items were successfully implemented in Linux 100% legal, I am not using any pirated software, the entire installation cost me 11 USD, 1. Internet Access/Email 2. MSN Messenger/AIM/ICQ Chatting 3. GUI for convenience. 3. Development tools, and RAD tools. 4. MP3 playing. 5. DVD movies (albeit in the early stages, LinDVD will be released soon, and OMS is looking good, my drive decodes CSS, so does yours.) 6. 3D Accelleration support for my ATI card (OpenGL) 7. Quake2 Online gameplay. 8. support for my laptop's special powersaving features 9. network card and other special hardware support (iR devices, etc.) and the list goes on, everything I did in windows, I can do in Linux, so I switched, I didn't have a pirated copy of windows, it came with my computer, but I didn't like supporting a company which I felt is monopolizing and of low quality. Sure, windows is paid for so it definately has more support, but, you can't expect a project to become user friendly if the users are not friendly to the project. If you are not the audience, then, you will _NOT_ be entertained. I am a software developer on my own time, and a tech support agent to pay the bills. Linux wasn't made for me, I'm not using it to be cool, I'm using it because it cost me 11$ and installed EASIER than windows does, plus I didn't have to register it, it is working just fine and it's more secure, I can lock up my files from others, and I feel more comfortable that way esp. with a laptop computer that can be accessed more easily by potential data theives. I challenge any other person to come up with a viable reason NOT to try another os, and the age-old excuse of it being too difficult to understand, ... don't even get me started( :) ), people who cannot understand 5 lines of instructions, and how to put a cdrom in the drive should have webTV not a f*cking pc, this is why consoles are the next generation PC's not 1.7ghz p.o.s. intel processors, notice that Microsoft isn't releasing a new version of their consumer level windows? I doubt they plan to, XP is in the range of NT/2000 and is intended to work as a business application. Welcome to our horrible world where everything will be paid monthly, and entertainment is a utility.

-Zachery Jensen
-cybereal@hobbiton.org
http://cybereal.hobbiton.org/
-----------------------------
Powered by me.

Uhm.. started off as "intelligent" but rapidly devolved into a rant. Picking something at random that shows that you have no idea what you're talking about: XP is both a consumer level OS and a Professional OS. Hence then "Home Edition" and "Professional" versions.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." Part of the parable of Stalinism from GeorgeOrwell's, "Animal Farm,".
Fortunately, we don't have to accept an Orwellian dictum: "All bits are equal, but some are more equal than others." We don't have to work for the winner of this game. Standards exist. Tools exist. Networks exist.
If we're still eating out of nose bags in the years to come, it's because we were afraid to take them off........

As someone (well probably quite a few have) has mentioned...

"The great thing about Standards is that there are so many to choose from."

"BN: If the user upgrades exceed the allotted times will he or she have to re-purchase a copy of Windows?

AN: No."

what, did they just "forget" to add this in the beginning? or did microsoft read this and get unhappy that people don't like what they are doing, so told betanews to add in that little phrase to reassure people? i'm not trying to be cynical or anything, but don't any of you find it odd that somehow an interview happened to have an addition made to the MIDDLE of it?

Allen Nieman "messed up" when he was answering these questions. So BetaNews corrected the article according to the answers that he intended to submit for publication.

David Worthington
BetaNews

listen ok ... i Love the fact that linux is Stable ... but i also love Microsoft's GUI ... ok ok ok i know what you're thinking ... it might be unstable and crash a lot .. but as a GUI it ROCKS ... amd that's why people use windows over linux .. now ... take KDE and GNOME and look at them ... you're gonan tell me they're as user-friendly and simple as the windows gui? .. start menu, a couple od quicklinks a taskbar and a system tray .. now THATS a gui ... not 6 million icons showing you cpu usage and stuf .. i mean i know its good to have and it would be cool to be able to add these things .. but for the general population how may of us care how much cpu usage we use up .. i mean cmon id rather have my 5% of desktop space back thank you very much ... i mean i tried linux ... and the one turn off i had with is is the GUI ... the windows GUI (windows 2000 and windows XP ala plain vanilla setting) is head over heels better than KDE and/or GNOME...

now here's what i tell you ... build a freakin gui on linux that is like the windows gui and then and only then will linux appeal to the masss market ... once we get that done then we could try and improve upon it by gettting user feedback etc.

so my cry out to the open source world has been made ... now gather yourselves up and lets get the ball rolling for crying out loud ... KDE and GNOME will NOT take us there ...

please post your feedback.

get the best of both worlds: download vmware. run windows inside of linux. makes it a billion times more stable, you can run linux apps, and you can run windows/linux at same time with one standard linux formatted hard drive. works great. i love it. wish i knew the url to it, you could probably find it with any decent search engine.

I think that Ibm's offer of one of thier 10 cpu Mainframes with 2.1 Terabytes of storage to the Linux community will help.

www.vmware.com hehe

It is quite obvious and unfortunate that you have not used kde recently. The days of having your desktop cluttered with cpu usage and such are more than over. If a user wants these things they can easily install them, but they deffinately don't have to. Maybe take another look at an up to date kde release and see what you think.

Geoff

So you don't want the activation key??
Well instead of b****ing about it or waiting for a crack why not think of what you can do to make it a problem for M$? or make it go away, fail, whatever.

Refuse to use the online activation. Why? Because who knows what information they are sending? (yes I know there are many watchgroups who will ensire there is no funny bussiness there) But it's your right to activate it by whichever method you chose. More importantly it cost M$ more to use the phones.... And hell if they're gonna make your life miserable why not return the favor?

How about calling M$ daily to get your activation key??? Bog down the phone lines and if you don't get through, complain loudly.... or sue. Whatever.
eventually they might get the message... of course you have to buy a copy to do this..... don't you??

Please do me a favor!! Get a subscription service for the little people. Here's what I want.. Office and Windows for about $300/year. I'll make monthly payments.. Get a pricing scheme with different levels. Such as
XP Home and Works $120/year ($10/month)
XP Pro and Office $240/year ($20/month)
XP Pro, Office, VS.Net $480/year ($40/month)
--------------------------------
I would gladly pay the fees and not worry about 1 time huge purchases that I can't afford. You know what it is going to cost me to get .net and XP... geez!!
Comments?? email: chris@pensoft.com

I'm trying to work out whether that's meant to say "Message FROM Microsoft", or if you're being sarcastic, or if you have more money than sense, or if I missed the point entirely. Please enlighten me :)

I'll say this though... if they did charge that much monthly for the "pleasure" of using Windows, then I'd fall off this fence I'm trying to sit on - in fits of laughter. I'd be repartitioning my disk to be 100% Linux, regardless of Everquest or any other Win-game, faster than Gates can say "Bugger, that was stupid"

Good job it isn't too likely to happen :)
(Giving credit where it's due, I think MS have a lot more sense than that)

haven't you heard of vmware? run other operating systems INSIDE of linux. makes windows like 400% more stable, and then you can use the few windows programs that you can't use directly inside of linux. and i'm doubting many programs will be made specifically for windowsXP too quickly. i'm yet to see a program that is made ONLY for windowsMe, and its been out for quite a while.

Are you serious? It makes no sense at all to a sane person.

I am trying out VirtualPC, from www.connectix.com. You can check out the public preview, so you can run windows in windows, linux in windows, whatever. Give it a go too, see what you think.

James
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

if it is indeed true that "we do NOT require the customer who acquires their Office XP or Windows XP licenses through one of Microsoft's volume licensing programs, such as Microsoft Open License or Microsoft Select License, to activation those product licenses", then all one has to do to pirate software is get one of these copies. No need for crack or anything.... Also, if you sell pc's, then just buy 5 copies of windows, and use those to install on your hundreds of systems, and you just saved yourself hundreds of dollars. I think all this will do is turn the "casual copier" into the "Internet piracy-er".

And as a PC builder, if you are selling the PC's you are doing that with, you violate the license agreement. The way I get the OEM OS CDs I get one OS CD per system. If I do NOT give that original OS CD *plus* the OEM numbers to the customer buying the PC with THAT OS and oem numbers on it, I will be nailed for software piracy.

James
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

this coming from the guy who charges $35/hour for comp work and built his webpage solely in frontpage.......

Personally, of all the software I could think of/want to use illegally, the OS would be the least attractive to pirate. It's not like an FTP program that you might use once a week or something you run a crack on just because you're annoyed by the nag screen. It's the core component of your system. If you pay a couple of hundred dollars for the OS and then use $10,000 worth of illegal software, isn't that a "fair enough" trade-off? I know few people who'd regularly try to get updates for their pirated copy of 3D Studio Max, but I know plenty who are freaks about checking for upgrades. (Hopefully, this response was coherent...it's early yet)

I dunno why you guys b**** so much about MS and Bill Gates. We all know that he built his "evil empire" copying from someonelse's ideas. But isn't that what the so called hype term Entrepreneurial Spirit is all about? Being an entrepreneur is getting something new or old and try to make the most innovative way to produce, market, etc. People are b****ing about having to spend few minutes to register a program in order to use it(of course, that's a phony reason). This is the same people who wait a whole day for a cable or phone company to install something, or stand in line hours to renew a driver's license. Then comes the issue of wanting an initial product (OS) to be completely perfect with no bugs at all from the go. Our daily lives are filled with disgust and imperfections...see Fyrestone Tires, Bush Election, success of the BackStreet Boys, Pam Anderson screwing Kid Rock, etc. I'm not here to defend MS or Bill, especially because it's impossible to become the richest dude in the planet being always a nice guy...that doesn't exist. I'm just trying to use logic thinking here, and understand the system. I read some dude saying that, unlike phones, we don't have to use PC's in case Bill goes Fidel Castro on us...can you guys really exist without a daily shot of internet and PC? I couldn't...heroin is like a latte compared to our addition to this. Well, i know, my point is: The are no other people with enough balls or brains to take on MS or Bill, and capitalism is about that...he can't help it if there's no bright people to face MS and take them down, and he has the right to protect his products and market. I think that, most of the people complaining, including myself, took a nice free ride on the back of Bill until now. He came using his brain again and now it's time to pay up or shut up.

Luv always,

This is for those who might not have read this post april 10 ,2001
windows2000 magazine. I am sure most have seen it but here it is again
http://www.win2000mag.co...dex.cfm?ArticleID=20621

Just recived Office XP on Volume Licencing, and guess what it still requires product activation, although this does only have to be done once, we are required to phone Microsoft to activate the Volume Licence Agrement and recive a product key, which then has to be entered upon ever installtion of office. Time consuming?.....yes!

Previously we had a thiry day evaluation period on all Microsoft products under the Select CD agreement, although with office XP we can't even do this without having to contact Microsoft first.

I know why microsoft are doing it, but it makes life far more compliated when we preform office installs/reinstalls on a daily basis.

Question: why would you have to do office installs/uninstalls on a daily basis?

James
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

probably because they work in a company that routinely has to restore machines that are trashed by their users. it gets old having to go behind user that think just because they have a computer system sitting in their cubicle/ or where ever they work, that they can install and run anything they please on their system. Most administrators use a disk imaging program to make a master restore disk that they can use to "ghost" or clone a system back to pristine shape, and by the way office xp and potentially windows xp's new activation process is going to work, they would quickly deactivate if deployed on multiple machines without unique activation processes. Granted office xp is supposed be available with a multiple licence process but some companies just won't pony up the cash to pay for a multiple license when they can get prebuilt systems from companies with bundled copies of officexp and or windowsxp at a "bargain"

anyway that's my two cents. sorry if I don't make much sense. it's been a long day

Cheers,

LC

Office XP with an Open License/Volume Licensing is keyless (just click next) and the key and activiation are only required for Network Administrative installs (setup /a). Time consuming no.

Microsoft will always have to be fighting itself since enterprise installations are keyless or may require mass distribution through ghosting, intillimirror, sms... The next generation of XP should still be bound by the ease of legitimate distribution that these corporate products require.

The ability for a network admin to network boot a new computer (via a floppy or an intelligent nic) with an unformated harddrive and have it install the OS and a few basic applications with minimal user intervention is something that is also in demand and something that was available in NT4, is vastly improved in 2000, and will be required with XP and beyond.

I was an unwilling test subject when I bought office 2000 academic edition. I, like any user who deals with the microsoft operating system, have had to wipe my hard drive periodically. Every single time I've had to call them for the activation code (2 or three times)they've questioned me and given me a hard time. IMHO this PR is bulls*** and this will be a big pain in the a** for anyone that knows the difference between RAM and ROM. I would avoid product activation at all costs.

I purchased the academic edition of Office 2000 and have had no problems reinstalling it. Every time I just entered my info, hit send and voila.

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Microsoft always said the reason their software is so highly priced was because of all the pirating?

I just know they're not going to even think about lowering prices on XP even though they have effectively eliminated 99.9% of all casual copying and a good portion of the other forms also.

It dosnt really matter how much they charge for it theres always a back door somewhere its just you have to find it. I wont pay for XP theres no way in hell i will, but i will shell out a twenty for a copy. :)

What a bunch of lame bone heads. "I refuse to pay my own way!", "I refuse to pay for music.", "I refuse to pay for Operating systems.", "I refuse to pay for support." What are you idiots going to do when you discover that society is not going to pay for YOU!

hmmm. . . looks like it already is and has been.

what are you talking about? society pays everyones way. its called "wellfare".

I'm willing to bet, that even if you do crack your installation of XP Final, which you probably will 2 days after it's released, chances are, Microsoft is going to try to make it a pain in the *** to run a cracked install.

Windows Update, one of the better features of Windows, will probably have some part in checking up on installations.. You never know what could really be in that "Critical Update" do you?

Just as Game Developers release patches to prevent cracks and trainers, is it not unthinkable that maybe Microsoft might just be planning something similar?

After all, they may have a team, ready and will to find, and defeat all known cracks for XP. Then, quietly slipping those fixes in with updates via Windows Update.

From my point of view, it looks like a perfectly good idea, and chances are, they will do something like this. Just think, you spent hours downloading you final copy of XP off some guy via IRC.. You burn it, install it, crack it. Simple, right? You then goto Windows Update, like many people do after a format, you download that latest Critical Update, reboot, and upon re-loading Windows, your suddenly shown a screen telling you, in simple detail, that you copy of XP has been de-activated.

Please keep in mind, I'm not against warez, in fact, I haven't paid for an MS OS since Windows 95. I'm just stating what will probably happen, and why I'll actually buy Windows XP Professional, instead of cracking it.

-RaGe

Ok, Tell me this dude doesn't work for Microsoft.

Microsoft has been great at illegally ridding themselves of competition. If anybody is stupid enough to buy XP, which promises to deactivate LAME and other mp3 encoders as well, then they deserve the OS. Microsoft killed Beos, so Linux has become the only alternative.

ok.....'he doesn't work for Microsoft' =)
What makes you think he works for Microsoft? The fact he admitted he hasn't paid for any version of Windows since 95 (which probably came with his computer)?

Your dumber then you look.. XP isn't going to disable other MP3 encoders/decoders.

-RaGe
www.outrigged.com

I don't work for Microsoft, trust me on that.

Actually, the last OS to come with a computer I bought, was Windows 98. I don't count that, lol. I actually paid for the full version of Windows 95.. Every version after that, I have "acquired" from various places.

First of all, Windows XP does NOT disable mp3 encoding. WMP8 adds mp3 encoding functionality though it limits that to 56kbps. You can edit your registry and remove this limit.

Second, Linux killed off BeOS, not Microsoft. People who might have bought BeOS were lured away by Linux being free. If they were thinking alternate OS, they weren't thinking Windows.

This is sad really because BeOS was much better than Linux ever can be. Linux is 30+ year old UNIX technology updated through patches upon patches upon patches. BeOS was a completely new modern OS without all the extra baggage UNIX comes with. It was portable, and compatible with just about evey device out there. It was POSIX compliant, much like Windows NT/2000, which meant most UNIX apps could be ported with relative ease. Most importantly, it has a consistent GUI that did not burden your system resources like those eye candy hogs KDE, Gnome and Enlightenment.

I understand why Microsoft is incorporating product activation on WindowsXP, however that does not mean that I agree with it. Who can blame MS for protecting there assest? I put locks on my doors to protect my assests. I personally disagree with IP (intellectually property) but captialism is the name of the game and IP is fair game at this time. What is really against a capitalistic system is monoploization of that system. That is what MS has been allowed to do thus far. It wouldn't be so bad if Microsoft actually produced a reliable OS to begin with, but MS charges too much for low quality OS's especailly. As I suggested ealier I think the biggest problem with MS is that it has been allow monopolize the market. Since MS has been allowed to do this other alternatives have not been created to serve average users. For most average computer users Windows is the only choice. Sure there's VAX, Unix, Linux, MAC OS, BEOS and a dozen others, but lets face it those OS's don't have the backing of the programmers because the average consumer doesn't use those OS's. Where the masses lay there is money and that is where programmers will be, where the money is at. Since this monoploy has already started, its hard to introduce competition in a market that has already been dominated. When telephones started to become a interegal part of everyones life, Ma bell was forced to allow other companies to use its phone lines and equiptment. That is why you have a choice of different long distance carriers today along with DSL. MS should be forced to relinguish some if not all of its source code of windows OS's and applications etc. to other parties, because computer are now a intergal part of our daily lives. Just to show you (for those who don't believe that MS is not a monoploy) one example out of many, where MS has clearly taken advantage of monopolistic position is with Win98. When windows98 first came out there where numerous problems that I and thousands of other can testify to. It was a lemon as in defective in a big way. MS knew this from the negative feedback it was receiving, but what did MS do? Instead of taking responsiblity and correcting the major problems of win98 free of charge (which would happen in a competitive market) MS comes out with a win98SE a completely redesigned version of windows98 and charges ppl for it. For god sakes it you couldn't even upgrade your existing windows98 because win98 was defective to begin with. Sure MS came out with a service pack to correct errata in the first win98, but once MS saw that was a lost cause and was too much work for the pay they recompiled a new os calling it win98se and charged for it. If there were another competitors in the market of making OS's, some ppl would have migrated over to the other competitor thus causes MS to lose its influence over ppl's decisions to purchase an MS product. I'm sure most of us would hate it if BellSouth was the only choice for broadband DSL. They could get away with providing crappy DSL that is overpriced which would influence your decision to stay with them, but because there are other DSL providers BellSouth by law has to allow 3rd parties to get in on the action even though Bell South owns the equiptment (phone lines etc.). Sure MS is trying to protect the IP (intellectual property), but they are doing it the a manner that does not serve the public, or our system of capitalism. Instead of trying to extract dollars out of the public any way they can; they should be winning the loyalty of their customers by producing a quality product. If MS remains a monoploy, there maybe a day when your computer may become a service that you will have to subscribe to via internet. Almost like subscribing to cable or satillite TV. Don't think MS can't do it, because they are already @ large and are able to over charge you for an OS that is sub par compared to what's out there and are about to be able to make you activate WindowsXP in order to use it (wow that was a runon). This product activation looks like it could be the ground work for a subscribion based computing and since there are no competitors MS can get away with this. I know most of you are saying, " no way in hell am I going to pay for that. Its my computer and MS has know right to control it in such a way to allow my pockets to be drained each month". I hope all of us keep that attitude, because that will be our voice against MS.

Syirrus

"subscribion based computing".....it's called .NET, most people either know something about it or have heard of it....nothing new. We all know Microsoft wants to go there and at least some of the reasons why.

"I personally disagree with IP"....you disagree with IP? How can you disagree with it? If you have thought up of an idea, shouldn't you have the right to own that idea rather than some bigger company coming up to you and taking your idea since they have the money to implement it? Just as the assets in your home are yours because you bought them, everything you think up is your intellectual property. how can you possibly disagree with this?

"MS should be forced to relinguish some if not all of its source code of windows OS's and applications etc. to other parties"....I won't start on this one again mainly because I cannot think of and have never been told of a single good reason why Microsoft would want or as you say should be FORCED to give their source code away. If they make such low quality OS' and other products, and all the other products out there are of so much better quality, why in the world would you want MS' source code? Windows is MS intellectual property which they shouldn't be forced to do anything and giving a reason like "because computer are now a intergal part of our daily lives" doesn't cut it. Should Adobe be FORCED to give away source code for Photoshop since everyone uses it? It's their intellectual property and as such have every right to protect it.

BTW, paragraphs are wonderful things.

ATTN: Chris_kabuki

Thank you for you patronizing belligerent comment, "BTW, paragraphs are wonderful things".

Okay, now with that said I will address some of the issues you didn't obviously think about. I'm glad you think you should be able to sell ideas. I don't intellectually speaking because; MS didn't create Windows out of thin air. MS's took ideas from apple, Amiga, and commodore in order to derive Windows and MS DOS. Another reason why I disagree with intellectual property is because it’s too easy to duplicate the process. I could see if 1's and 0's where tangible items like a chair, TV, or fan, but they're not and can be duplicated easily because we all have computers which serve as the factory for producing software. If you going to create software, don't complain and cry that ppl are duplicating it because creating, manipulating 1's and 0's is the very nature of all computers. That in and of it self makes trying to own certain patterns of 1's and 0's on someone else’s computer asinine. It’s to know avail why MS can't stop the theft of their so call "intellectual property".

Now if you carefully read what I typed in regards to what MS should do, I stated, "MS should be forced to relinquish SOME if not all of its source code of windows OS's and applications etc" We know founder Bill Gates stole code/idea's of DOS in order to profit from it. Bill Gates stepped on many ppl in order to get where he is so don't act like windows was his conception alone. I bet you think its okay to steal someone’s idea, as long as its legal? I am I right? Would you stab your friend in the back? If anyone is a thief Bill Gates is the biggest one of all just like the rest of us. I don't know why you seem to think, "everything you think up is your intellectual property” Idea’s don't come out of thin air. Idea's spawn ideas and are caused by other ideas. Now just in case you’re wondering I just explained to you how I can disagree with your idea.
You ask why I or others may want MS's code even if they make such low quality OS' and other products? Well that’s simple to allow others to refine windows much like Honda has refined the 4 cycle gas powered engine which is credited to FORD. It would be stupid to try to tear down existing computer infrastructure if most of the world is still dependent on it. That's like completely scraping the idea of a nuclear energy in hopes of creating better without taking any knowledge away for methods that are already in existence.

Syirrus

Syirrus, first of all that wasn't meant as a 'patronizing belligerent' comment. People seem to read far too deeply into a few words. I made that comment because it's dreadful to read that much text all in one clump. Don't you think that your reply is about 10x easier to read than your earlier post?

Anyways, getting back on topic. "MS didn't create Windows out of thin air. MS's took ideas from apple, Amiga, and commodore in order to derive Windows and MS DOS." This is something I guess you and I will have to disagree on. IP doesn't just cover 'inventions', it does in fact cover 'innovations' as well. As an example let's use Pepsi. Using your argument Pepsi shouldn't have an IP rights to their formula since they 'stole' ideas from Coke. Obviously IP doesn't work that way else we would all have the formula for Pepsi and and other Cola drink available. Obviously you could take this further and say Coke 'stole' the idea of making a fizzy drink from someone else but that's just stupid and going too far, I just wanted to illustrate my point.

And you make a good point regarding IP in that it is difficult to prove someone stole your idea/process and the whole IP law is in fact difficult to work with. Nethertheless I believe it is important that we do have an IP law. I'm sure that if you came up with a brilliant idea (wether it's a new invention or innovation) you'd want to protect it, in the same way that companies spend millions on R&D. If we didn't have IP companies like Kodak wouldn't spend millions on R&D to develop new patents etc just so a rival company could say "Thank You..." and run off with their work.

"Bill Gates stepped on many ppl in order to get where he is so don't act like windows was his conception alone." I don't....Windows is the IP of Microsoft not Bill Gates alone. Is it ok to steal ideas? Define stealing ideas? If I write an FTP client am I stealing someone else's idea on how to transfer files? Going a bit far aren't we? And no I wouldn't stab a friend in the back, but that's got nothing to do with the topic at hand.

"Idea’s don't come out of thin air. Idea's spawn ideas and are caused by other ideas.".....ahhh where did the very first idea come from that you speak of?

And finally I'm not sure why people keep comparing Software to Cars...there is no relevance there and you may as well be comparing apples and oranges. Just because one thing applies to one doesn't mean it has to apply to the other!

SO if you want MS to be FORCED to release SOME if not all of the source code to Windows and it's other applications....does this mean you always want every other software company to be FORCED to release SOME if not all of their source code as well? Do you just want to suddenly turn to all the companies and say..... "Look, you've been making ok/good/great money on your products but I have now decided that you should show everyone your source code because I think it will be better that way. You probably won't make anywhere near as much money if any at all this way...but I want to see your source code"?

I have a potential solution to the whole monopoly thing. Microsoft wants to move to .NET. So let them. But then re-evaluate the OS portion of the company. Enough of America relies on the OS, so we can assume that the OS has become a utility. So now that the OS is a federal utility, you can treat it like telephone companies and ILEC/CLEC's.

So Microsoft includes .NET with future operating systems, but when someone goes to sign up for a .NET product, Microsoft must allow any 3rd party provider to post their products on .NET. This would allow a customer to simpley, easily and freely choose any 3rd party product as well as Microsoft's applications. You could force it to go enven further that Microsoft would have to unbundle accessories into .NET applications such as: Windows Media Player, their zip archive utility, backup software, internet explorer, outlook express, etc.

The government could slap serious fines on Micoroft if they resisted or initentially attempted to limit the ability for 3rd parties to eitehr create .NET products, or to produce viable Windows based applications.

I know there are a million and one possible problems, especially with the behind the scenes coding, poor api documentation, etc but if Micorosoft was monitored with serious penalites, that may be able to make it work.

I am curious about feedback, so feel free to flame if you think this idea is out in left field.

Just one comment to be made this time (first time for everything!) =)
Definetely agree that anyone should be free to write programs or provide services for .NET. Not sure the current status on this, I'm sure MS will want to have as much control over it as they can, but I figure if anyone can write programs for windows they should be able to do the same for .NET without any hassles/control from Microsoft. If you're going to be using .NET you should be able to choose what programs you want to run not let MS choose the programs you can choose from. But I think .NET was always going to be free for all...it's to be seen how free it ends up being.

I do however disagree about unbundling accessories from Windows/.NET etc (and note this is just my opinion). MS should be free to include whatever additional programs they want to 'give away' (so to speak) with Windows/.NET and let people choose wether they want to use them or download something else. I do obviously realise this is also a good tactic by MS as your average 'Joe/Joanne?' (not to be sexist) isn't going to go out and get another program if they already have a program which does whatever they want it to do. However, if I can install Windows and have it come with (what is currently...) the best web browser and a media player then that saves me having to go out, find another player and download it then that's great. Nothing would piss me off more if we went back to how it was quite a few years back now when you had to find and download every single internet program you wanted. Of course this means nothing to those on dsl and cable but some of us still use a modem. No I don't use WMP because I find that winamp and powerdvd suit me better (and I have gotten used to them), but I'm not upset that it came with windows, all the better that it did. I don't half of the programs that were bundled with Windows but some of them came in handy at one time or another and those that do not want to purchase a zip archive utility or a backup utility are happy to have those programs there. But I guess in the end it is a personal decision. Also incase anyone does make a point about why MS doesn't include Netscape or any other competitor's product on the Windows installation CD.....well the answer is fairly obviously.....why the hell should MS support a competitors product?

The guy that wants to make a case of the phone company vs Microsoft is missing one thing. You do not need a computer at all in life. It is a toy for most. Is it really nessary? No.
A phone is nessary to have to call the police, or fire department. The state of computers and all the ISP's, software, etc can not replace the reliable phone for real problems like your house is on fire.
I was around when the phone company was all in one piece and we were better off then. We have flaky DSL providers that fold like a house of cards, and history of places like MCI changing your long distance with out your knowlege. Also why the hell should the phone company that paid for all the poles, wires, buildings, etc have to give these other idiots the right to the stuff they paid for? You want to be a lumberjack handle your own end of the pole. Put up your own poles and wires, or make a deal like the cable guys did and rent the poles to put your wires on them.
If any other company is so good, let them make an OS. IBM tried and failed. Apple could try with OS X, but they won't.
You have every geek in the world trying to make Linux work easy for the masses for how many years now? People that go through all that monkey business to make Linux work would cut their noise off to spite their face.
The guys that really get me are the ones that take, say 800mz chip and overclock it to around 1100mz. They spend more on high dollar coolers (ZAP there goes one of those water units now), high dollar memory chips, and lockups here and there when they could have bought a 1200mz chip for a lot less with out the misery. All that over getting something for free (the differnce of the price between the 800 and the 1200 chip in this case).
You can tell the age of the posters here, the kids want everything for free. They think it is some right. Well the real world does catch up in the end and you better get used to it. Remember the snotty 20 somethings with all the dot bombs in 1999? The real world caught up with most of them, and the rest is only a matter of time.
Bottom line is Microsoft is the only company that can make an OS for the masses. If you and your Linux buddies think you can do better, then do it. You have been trying for years and not even close yet.
If you were so smart you would be worth millions like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry, Scott....et all.

unbundle everything? why?! why should microsoft be the only OS supplier that doesnt bundle apps with their OS? I mean, look at all the cr@p that comes with the average linux disty these days, pretty much at least one version of every type of app available, from every kind of server product (db,mail,web,etc etc etc) to every kind of client app (irc,im,web browser,word processor, spreadsheet etc etc etc). OS-X and apple in general bundle whole apps with their OSs now as well I believe (itunes etc etc).

So microsoft should be the only developer to NOT bundle apps with their OS? lol that would end up with an interesting role reversal in an antitrust case in a few years time dont ya think?

Everyone seems to still be having a go at MS bundling things because they got the idea first, but now most other OSs come with a big selection of bundled apps, why is everyone still having a go at MS?

Same goes for the "integrated browser" arguments, microsoft got there first so everyone cries "oh they cant be allowed to do that! thats sooooo unfair, lets take them to court".

But now, look at the work KDE and how Konqueror is slowly being integrated into it, same with GNOME and Nautilus.

People just seem to b1tch about M$ because microsoft generally gets their first with good ideas, (incredible example is how they didnt think the internet was going to take off, ignored it, and how look at how it features in their products).

Their might be some good programmers working on linux and other OSs, but who cares when all the programmers with good IDEAS are working for microsoft.

When was the last time a Linux distribution included applications written by the distributor? I don't see any RedHat, Slackware, Mandrake, Debian, etc applications bundled with those distros. How would you like to buy RedHat, and only get applications written by RedHat developers and nothing else as an option in the distribution. Your argument doesn't make sense. Allowing 3rd parties to supply applications via .Net would be virtually identical to selecting packages under a Linux install. The only problem I see with this is that a customized version of a Windows install could get quite complex if you had to start choosing from hundreds of competitive applications to install with the OS.

The Mac is a different story, but I have never really used the Mac enought to address the way they sold their OS/PC.

All of Microsoft's previous piracy-protection features have failed, so why worry about this one?

i have mac0Sx on my commodor 64 and it owns! its not slow and graphical like linux with stupid internet explored or text based with ansi color muds like windows that uses perl n s***. I heard windows Cement was comming out soon and i think i might get that/.1 but also im a hacker so ill hack u with my c:\format c:\ hack in windowsnt cause windowsnt has great dos support which means directary of service attack on the mainframe OS. Some of you n00bies maybenot know what im talking bout cause ur n00bs and OJ can hack more then u hahahah hack hack hack on Nicole ouch! so if you want linux with the dumb mp3 program like napingater that downloads mp3s from that windows server or something witht he beta testering. then get that, ummmm mac0sx rules because it has great cd-rw support which i use to burn illegal copies of WormS Amegeddon and burn illegal coppies of "Linux ME" which i distribute at a local warehouse, dont make me own u some mpore bia*** wit ur microsoft redmon apache web processors using perl intsead of 1 and 0 damn newbs.

This guy is scary. I'm scared. What are you talking about exactly? This discussion is about Windows Activation...

Is this meant to be some kind of attempt at a joke?
It failed miserably.

Either I'm weird (cause I *really* don't get it) or you're weird (cause you wrote this babble)... I wonder which it is :)

Somebody's been reading a little too much JeffK. (http://www.somethingawful.com/jeffk/)

Someone have this information ?

For the Full ? Update ? Home/Pro ?
The Update of Win98 to WinME was only about 68$ this will be the same from WinMe to XPHome ?

I have no problems with the majority of you that are pro anti-piracy. There is nothing wrong with your beliefs. Yes, stealing is wrong in every form. Yes piracy is stealing. Yes, because Microsoft is a huge corporate giant that doesn't mean they should give software to home users or others who can't afford the software. I agree with most of these comments.

But Microsoft is crossing the lines of anti-piracy. They are invading our freedom of choice. This topic would not even exist if there was a viable alternative to Windows. Yes Linux exists, but for the majority of businesses and home users, Linux is not a viable alternative. Do you think for one minute that all these people complaining about Microsofts anti-priacy plans would hesitate to switch to a competitive product if it existed?

I am pro-consumer. We are the ones being screwed. Consumers as home users, as businesses. Many of us do not want to put up with Windows Activation, and we are being thrown head first into the fray without option. These are actions that mimic monopolistic practices.

I as a consumer do not want to be told what and how I need to do something and I will fight tooth and nail to defend my freedom of choice from any corporate giant that attempts to alter this freedom in any way.

right on gfunk!

As paying customers we shouldn't be treated like thieves.. As a MSDN subscriber I find it very offensive that I can't be trusted with a piece of software and I'm very surprised more people don't feel the same.. This same thing has been going on in the game industry for years now.. With all this copy-protection schemes on CDs.. I have to d/l and use cracks to run software I paid for! Is this what we'll have to do with Office/Windows as well?

I don't believe at all that we should eat this activation as a condition for using MS products.. It doesn't matter that it is easy or that most people won't notice.. It's the principle! And it is principles which earned the US its freedom from England. If we are gonna pay our MS tax then we should have a say. We as customers should be able to tell MS what to do! We pay their salaries they have every obligation to listen to us. Of course someone will chime in and say "then don't buy it".. Well what else can you buy? This is the problem that faces us today because of MS's position as a monopoly.. We have no choices.. Though Linux is making strong surges forward I still think it is a couple years out before normal folks can benefit from it..

I'm just waiting for the inevitable class action suit that will arise when people can't get the activation to work.. heh

"As paying customers we shouldn't be treated like thieves.."...this is unfortunately not as simple as that. First let me say that I disagree.....well not disagree, that's not the right word....'i don't think that's how it should be but it is'...if that makes any sense.

The world works based on the average or quite usually below average individual. Laws, etc are based around average or below average individuals. Just because you or I may not have it within us to kill someone doesn't mean that everyone is like that. Better example is what we can and can't watch on tv. Everything is limited so that we don't see porn, overly too much violence, too much swearing etc. Now you and I may be pissed about all of these things but they were brought into place to 'protect' those people that cannot handle those things or react badly to those things or think that they can go out and do those violent things (i.e. giving them ideas). Here in Australia (as you migth have heard) we had a law passed banning the possesion of any guns. The reason for it was a mass shooting in Tasmania (one of the states). Now as much as I don't argee with this personally the reason it was brought in (apart from many political reasons) was to stop the 'd***heads' in society from being able to grab a gun and start shooting. What this meant is that people who previously had a gun for recreational reasons (i.e. clay shooting etc) weren't allowed to do it anymore.

Therefore it's not as simple as saying, "I paid for the product therefore I shouldn't have any protection on it". The anti-piracy protection isn't there to directly inconvenience you, it is there to try and stop the non-paying customers. Now unfortunately that means that everyone has to suffer, but that's how the world works currently and as much as you and I may not like it, there's little we can do about it.

I am not sure if this comment was posted in reply to pencilneck's comments, or my thread in general. But, to re-iterate, I have nothing against anti-piracy. These reasons for anti-piracy have been stated over and over again on this forum.

But, when anti-piracy schemes can influence, control or restrict my future choice on purchasing products as a consumer, then they have gone to far. I think I have stated enough valid reasons in other posts of why Windows Activation has the potential to influence, control or restrict my consumer choices.

yeah i hear ya man..

I guess its to be expected in this country built for the lowest common denominator..

The stupid thing to me is that all this stuff is gonna burden the honest people but it still won't solve the problem with the crooks.. Warez kids are still gonna crack it and get their OS, and i would says only 25% of casual copiers will be stopped.. the rest will just say oh win 98/2k is good enough for me.. i think if MS wants to stop casual copying they should offer home user pricing, kinda like the academic program. The reasoning behind the academic program is that your not making money from using the product and i doubt neither is anybody else by writing letters to aunt betsy.. I think this new pricing scheme would help with most of the casual piracy because i don't think most people would have a problem justifying the purchase of office or whatever at the academic price but a family with 2 kids a car payments and whatever would have to decide between office xp and timmy's braces..

Buy a Mac and strengthen Apple! Quit whining about Microsoft. Just go away with your OS of choice and enjoy it! The more people who run alternatives to MS the stronger those OS's will become.

why do I have to buy a Mac? so i can replace OS dependance on MS with an OS >and

my previous post was cut off..

so you suggest i replace my dependance on MS for my OS with a dependance on Apple for my OS AND my hardware..

great..

Notice the lack of concrete answers. Not just the ones sidestepped for "security" or number of hardware upgrades before activations run out, but on the "If the user upgrades exceed the allotted times will he or she have to re-purchase a copy of Windows?", Nieman doesn't even attempt to answer the question.

excellent analysis . Yes titghtening the grip is what is in the internal debate at microsoft. They haven't decided on the numbers yet I assure you. Right now I do believe the test with wpa is building a database on what they are seeing in with the previewers. I have never gotten a concrete description , only rumors. at first it was beyond 4 changes. It kind of reminded of the open carrying permit here in florida pertaining to how many movements to get to you weapon being legal. It is deeper than that though. Anything that might have a permamnent stamp =mac address seems to trigger a need for reactivation
however in the testing there are many of us who have by avoiding motherboard or nic changes literally replaced the entire machine and no questions asked. No reactivation needed. some people have done other things for instance striking up several instances of the software on various drives on the same machine all using the same key. again no problems. some have put it on 2 machines identical to each other and then still others have just simply put it on a couple machines regaurdless and no problem there. It is all being looked at to see where to draw the line. I think microsoft wants to be fair considering they are the makers but they stated the statistics were high in the casual copying so that is where they will focus. Our biggest argument with them has been what are they willing to do for the casual copyers to keep them honest. It is still up in the air but their only solution is going to be a single liscence and maybe even a 3pak instead of 5pak only and it will have to be at a reduced rate since just the key will be provided for the extra liscenses. This has carried heavy debate from day one and I bet Paul T. at the winsupersite has just about gone certifiable after hearing this same question at least 15 or 20thousand times within the first month of the preview. Now with that all said let us wait and see if microsoft plays ball. There is no time limit on the software "xp"that you will purchase. You in fact own it and they have taken it upon themselves to say they will be responsible in keeping you up and running as a legal owner with keys. If they do offer price reduced low volume liscenses it will be better. 1-3 being low. I dont know if they will go there >the talk was still at 5 last I heard.
Sure it is going to cost them more money but generate more jobs but at the same time it will generate more money to pay the people who have the jobs. Quality control of those jobs will be paramount resting on the repuatation needing to be johnny on the spot. they have done quite well so far.
I am sure most of you have thought that maybe if it was palletable
for the casual copier to come across it might be just a little easier to track down big piracy. signs at winbeta were showing with pages shutting down.Sure they know they will never completley win but that might not be the object of this excercise either. just an observation but one I think is not far off base. You see I have seen the fear in their words and I have seen the boldness in the words of the others trying to hold it together. It will never end but then again that might not be in the big picture.

You Wrote:
"Notice the lack of concrete answers. Not just the ones sidestepped for "security" or number of hardware upgrades before activations run out, but on the "If the user upgrades exceed the allotted times will he or she have to re-purchase a copy of Windows?", Nieman doesn't even attempt to answer the question."

But you obviously did not read the interview:
"BN: If the user upgrades exceed the allotted times will he or she have to re-purchase a copy of Windows?
AN: No."

Seems like a pretty concrete answer to me.

- P_J

Now that we've all made them famous that's how they thank us...by putting an activation code! bas****s.

Morsel.

hmmm ok so the online activation downloads a certificate or two and thats generally how the authentication works, but how does the voice(phone) activation work? obviously without a net connection, getting the all important computer certificate onto the computer is impossible.... about all they can do over the phone is give you a number to type in. (unless they send you a disk with the appropriate certificates on, but i doubt that).

/me thinks this is where the weakest link in the activation is going to be.

When you activate by phone, the software creates a hashed key (about 8 blocks of 6 digits from memory) based on your hardware configuration. You read this out to the guy on the phone and he uses it to generate the activation key (7 blocks of 6 digits) which you type in. You should keep a record of both these codes. When reinstalling, if the hardware configuration has not changed significantly (??) then the hash key should (!!) be the same and the activation key will still work.

Windows activation is fine by me, but only if Microsoft cut their prices --- and they ought to be able to do this as they will be able to sell quite a few more copies of their products that would otherwise have been illigally copied. The arguementation is quite simple: it cost a certain amount of money to develop and produce a product - based on the cost they add some profit and divide this with the budgetted amount of sales... this is a simplified model for pricing a product. Now, with windows activation, the sales will increase thus the price can drop while still making the company earn what it hoped for.

In other words, the lost income and profit due to piracy are today being payed by the people who actually buy the product... you could say that if every copy of Windows is being copied 3 times on average the person who bought the product actually pays for the copying too.

And if Microsoft fails to lower prices? well, they aren't the only OS - and many of their competitors are completely free.

...But I find it ironical that the people who complain about Activation the most also happen to be those that will pirate WinXP (which strangely enough is why Activation was added in the first place). I'm not saying that everyone who complains about Activation will pirate XP, but from the posts below, it seems that most will.

Now the question that begs to be answered is WHY are these people complaining about Activation so much (and their apparent rights which they don't have to pirated software)? Is it because Activation has yet to be cracked? Is it because it will be a b**** to crack in the final version? Or is it because it's giving them trouble now, because they download each build of WinXP illegally and then have to screw around trying to patch it before they can install it and use it? And then have to repeat the same process for every other build. I think it's the last reason personally.

The whole point of Activation is to 'try' to lessen the amount of piracy (i.e. obviously not stop it). Therefore any legitimate user of XP won't have a problem with upgrading their computer or anything else because they will be able to reactivate in a few seconds over the internet or if they should be one of those 6 people who do not have internet access yet but for some reason they have to upgrade/buy WinXP rather than any other OS out there (e.g. Win2000), they will be able to call MS and get it resolved. Therefore the only people who will find Activation a pain in the a** is those that try and pirate it (and guess what.....amazingly enough that's exactly why Activation was written!...don't you hate it when something you write does what it was supposed to do!). However as most people know (who do pirate software) there will be a way around the Activation, wether through a nice method such as 'a-good-serial' or a pain in the a** method like having to patch certain files and turning a 3 step install process into a complex 8 step one!

Hence all I am saying is, stop complaining about Activation because it's a pain in the a** for you due to the fact you're getting it illegally.

You seem to have a very narrow view on who might complain about this activation crap. I work in the service department of a computer business. When Microsoft came out with the 5 by 5 cd key codes for Windows 98, it started giving me headaches. I have to punch in all those numbers on customer's re-installs. After a few dozen of these, it got real old. Now, I have to worry about supporting this Activation crap. I'm going to end up having to reactivate all these repairs. As for my home use, I am constantly changing and upgrading my hardware. I foresee nothing but headaches there, also. You may see only pirates on the horizon, but there is more to it than that.

I do not have a narrow view on this topic. Simply read through the majority of the comments here and I'm sure you'll see that i'm right. The majority of people who are complaining about Activation the most are those that are getting it illegally and hence having to patch it to make it work and those ignorant few who think MS is the devil, Activation is one huge conspiracy to take away their rights, and have no clue what Activation is all about to begin with. Legitimate testers (I'm assuming CPUGuy is one of those) aren't posting childish comments about how Activation is ruining their lives and making everything difficult for them etc etc. They have no reason to complain because the Activation process is quick and simple. For the same reasons, legitimate users won't have a problem with it either which brings us back to my original post!

You work in the service department and you're getting headaches because you have to type in 25 characters rather than 10 or 11? I don't mean to sound rude but that's your job. What are you doing working in the service department if you have a problem typing? There are far more applications out there with far longer keys! Or are you complaining about the fact that you can't generate a valid key in your head like you could with the 10 and 11 digit keys MS used to use (and in fact the xxxxx-oem-xxxxxxx-xxxxx 17digit keys fall into that category as well)? Sure I remember the 'good' days when everytime I reinstalled an MS product I would use a different key simply because I could. But the point is, if you have the legitimate key in front of you, those extra 14 or 15 characters aren't going to kill you! Even if you go through 100 machines a day, that's only 1500 additional characters. Ignoring all the calculations of how fast you type etc, that really only translates to an additional 5 minutes every day (IF you go through 100 machines a day and if you type fairly slowly). So now if you have to type in 25characters and then spend 3 minutes getting it activated....it won't kill you. You charge out for the time you spend working on a machine.

As for all the headaches that everyone is going to have because they 'constantly are upgrading their machine'....do you constantly change your network card, motherboard and cpu? And define constantly? And even if you are in that mad 0.00001% of whom do change everything in the computer all the time because they have the money....if you're a legitimate user it will only take you an additional 3 minutes to re-Activate. About how long it takes to open your case up and change a few components.

Therefore the only people this will inconvenience is those that are getting it illegally and since they are getting it illegally they really have nothing to complain about (yet they do). And as I have said in the past, all the people complaining about Activation NOW will be all happy once the final version is released by some group who managed to get a key which doesn't require activation. Time will only tell if I'm wrong.

You have to be kidding right!

Are you that arrogant? Do you believe you are that much better than everyone else? You don’t sound like you work in a service department, so don’t try to explain why Windows activation shouldn’t impact computer service professionals.

From your posts, you sound like you believe Microsoft has been put on the world to save you? Although I will agree that a lot of the negative voice about activation is coming from computer hobbyist who will now have to buy a copy of there software instead of borrowing it from their friend, there is also a large voice out there from computer professionals, recognized and respected journalists and many others that are issuing the same complaints and concerns. In reality, it is quite rare that I read a positive article from anyone not directly affiliated with Microsoft.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but come on. Yes I am also a computer consultant, and yes those extra keys may not be that much more difficult to enter. This is not the complaint that I, and a vast amount of my colleagues are complaining about.

First, do you have any idea how much additional administration is going to be required to support keeping appropriate keys that are assigned to specific computers? This cost is not going to be reflected on me; it will be billed through to our customers. So in reality, I should be happy because it is going to increase the amount of work required to support or clients. In reality though, our clients are Microsoft's customers, and they are going to have to brunt the additional costs of XP. In addition to the higher cost to purchase Windows XP (I guarantee they will raise the price again) Microsoft is going to raise the TCO for their customers as well with the increased administrative costs.

So now that each computer costs more to maintain, once you upgrade your computer enough times that Microsoft determines it is a new computer, you have to call them to prove you own the license and get it re-activated. Unless Microsoft is planning on spending millions of dollars to support this reactivation staff, you will be on hold for hours waiting for a Microsoft rep to authorize your license. Then what happens if they mess up their paper work and claim you don't have that license? Now you have to prove you own it. How many faxes do you have to send? What if you don’t have a fax machine? Do you have to send the original receipt? What if that gets lost by Microsoft as well? How does Microsoft plan to handle arbitration cases? While this arbitration is in process, what happens to your PC that is sitting their unusable? For most of our customers, it would be cheaper to buy another license than fight to get an activation code. That’s more revenue for Microsoft. How come the though of hot-spare licenses just doesn’t sound right? BTW, I have seen problems of this nature happen before with other monopolies, namely InterNIC’s when it had sole control of Internet domain names. We had one particular client fight for 6 months to prove they owned a domain name in InterNIC's control. We easily spent thousands of dollars worth of labor hours, phone calls, and other administrative work in this particular battle, not to mention the time that the client didn't have email or their website. Do you want Microsoft to have this control over your operating system and your office software?

Microsoft's argument is that companies can simply buy volume licenses to bypass the activation process. This appears like a true and simple solution on the cover, but it appears more ugly under the covers. First of all, all major PC OEM's will bundle Windows XP and Office XP with each PC. Knowing that the majority of small companies and many larger corporations buy their PC's through a major OEM, all these users would end up double licensing their PC's to purchase volume license. Microsoft’s monopolistic policies are trying to force users to buy additional licenses of software that they don’t need. This is already happening for some of our clients. Although they do not want to upgrade to Office XP, in order to purchase their next round of computer upgrades through their traditional manufacturers, they have to get copies of Office XP. This will be revenue in Microsoft’s pocket that these clients may never actually use. I personally still have a copy Of Microsoft Works still in shrink-wrap that was bundled with a PC I bought. Since Microsoft sells OEM software significantly cheaper than volume licenses, and since all OEM’s know that their clients want Microsoft software, it will be rare to find a reputable OEM that doesn’t bundle Microsoft’s OEM software. I know pricing information first hand. This creates no incentive to purchase volume licenses, except to minimize administrative costs. It will be scary to hear a CIO say “It will be cheaper for us to buy OEM PC’s with OEM software and volume licenses than any other option.”

Now here are some specifics about OEM licensing. For those who don't know this already, technically an OEM license lives and dies with the computer that it is shipped with. So assume you buy your next PC from DELL with OEM licenses? 1 year from now you decide to upgrade it. So you buy a new motherboard and CPU, but keep the rest of the components. After you install the new components, you go to install the operating system. Windows XP informs you to call the product activation department. You call up to get the product activated, and Microsoft informs you that you invalidated the OEM license when you threw away the motherboard and CPU. Your day of excitement for your new processor just became a day from hell because you had to run to Best Buy and fork out $500 for new software, which you thought you already owned.

No matter how you look at it, Microsoft appears to have many motivations beyond stopping "casual copying" with its new Windows activation.

I apologize for coming across so harsh in the beginning. I don't mean to start a flame war. I just get extremely frustrated when people don't look at the big picture on this topic. It is a lot more complex then most people realize, and I fear that Microsoft is going to wait until their web is fully spun before they hit us with the worst of Windows activation.

Ok, just to clear a few things up to begin with....I was only mentioning the complaints I had seen in this story. And therefore what I said is quite correct. Secondly 'jchoit' complained that it was a nightmare for him when MS brought in 25 character serial numbers. This coming from someone who works int he Service Department...I'm sorry, I may sound arrogant, but what the hell was that, that's like me complaining that I have to do some programming in my job (and I am a developer).

As for me not working in a Service Department and therefore not knowing anything....who's arrogant now? I have worked for several years as a contractor while studying at University setting up networks, servers and pc's for different businesses and the Defence Department. So I've installed more than my fair share of different versions of Windows and wether I enter in a 10, 11 or 25 digit serial number doesn't make the slightest difference to me. Every business I worked for I had to store the serial number and pc it was installed on into a database so maintenance of serial numbers is one of those things that any sizable business should already be doing.

As for "From your posts, you sound like you believe Microsoft has been put on the world to save you?"...How did you come up with this one? They're not here to save me or anyone else...Just because I posted a few comments about piracy? linux? open-source? that automatically means that I love MS? Don't be so quick to judge. Read what I write first. Maybe I do take certain comments too far, but hearing moronic comments like 'MS should release their software for free or open-source or whatever' from people who complain about MS and talk about Linux like it was a gift from the gods is just too much at times. Take that as you will.

Now as for the rest of your comments, you make some very good points and I agree, however like I said, I was talking about the posts made to this story. And the truth is that most people spread rumors about Activation and automatically feel threatened by it because they know little to nothing about it. That isn't necessarily their fault since MS haven't exactly been too detailed about it, but it doesn't give everyone the right to start idiotic rumors causing others to panic.

Yes jchoit used some bad examples to support his argument. Although I agree with his statements that Windows activation will be an administrative nightmare for companies and support professionals, his arguments are poor at best.

I apologize if I was offensive. I have been following this topic for quite some time and your post happened to be my first vent against Microsoft's activation.

I still think you are underestimating the potential cost of adminstartion to support Windows activation. I have worked in numerous fortune 500 enterprise enviornments. I have worked in large collegiate enviornments, and I have been involved in a vast amount of small business support.

In the enterprise, I witnessed boxes and boxes of installation media and cd keys being sent to trash compactors because there was no where to store the software. Assume once that an enterprise does not buy volume licenses. This means they have to somehow store 3000 sets of CD's all indexed appropriately. Now there support staff would have to check in and check out this software to be sure it matches the PC they are working on. And anytime hardware changes, this all needs to be tracked and changed and kept in tune with Microsoft. In addition to the sheer amount of labor the above could incur, any pre-existing databases would need to be modified to include physical identifiers of PC's. Then you would need to physically label each set of CD's that comes with each PC and ensure none of this gets lost. (I could be wrong here, but I have been informed from a MS rep that the actual cd is tied to the hardware product hash that is generated as well.) None the less, if these databases don't pre-exist, and trust me many of these databases don't exist in enterprise enviornments, this will be an expensive and time consuming process to create.

The educational markets are very simlar to the enterprise enviornments. Many network admins have setup their networks to be reliant on the ability to install software from virtually anywhere, network install, cd booklet with one copy of all their software, etc. These admins will have to restructure their support simlar to wnterprises.

Now, the small business markets. Most of these have just started to even understand that TCO actually means something. The majority of the small businesses that we come in to support don't even have a copy of there server OS cd's much less the copy of Windows that shipped with their PC. These businesses won't even know that Windows activation exists. They are going to buy a new PC from an OEM. They will set it up, run through a quick wizard customized by DELL, HP, Compaq, etc that will be all user friendly and it will register/activate the PC. Meanwhile, the business has no clue what is happening. After the process finishes, they will be happy that there PC is running, and they will go and misplace all the stuff that came with the PC. In there minds, "I got three PC's and I have all this stuff already for the other one, so why do I need another set of this information?" Now they call in the support professional because the PC isn't working right and the support professional decides to reformat. How many potential problems can you see in this enviornment. Trust me many, MANY of these situations and variations of them will occur.

I'm going to be honest here, I have a home network with 3 computers, soon to be 4 computers. I use them for LAN parties at my place...Only 1 of my computers has access to the internet. From what I understand I would have to buy a copy for each machine and then hook up each other machine to the net to get them activated. I don't give my 1 copy of WinMe to my friends, I make them go get their own, and they either do or live with their win98SE that came with their machine.
So basically I would no longer be able to buy just 1 copy of Win for my home network, I would have to buy multiple copies. And then what happens when I start switching out RAM, Graphics Cards, upgrading my 10 base T to 100 BaseT, upgrading my Sound cards, maybe adding a faster processor and then taking the old processor and putting it in one of the other machines....Pretty soon I have to go out and buy 4 more copies of WINXP to put on my machines cuz I can't reactivate the old copies....That's a nightmare waiting to happen

I think it might be just you. I have bought 2 legal retail copies of W2k Server (for two of my machines) and Office 2k Developer, and I had to burn new "modified" Office CD off of the orgiginal one in order to bypass Office's activation "wizard" in all of my future installations, because it would allow me to run it 49 more times and then I "must" activate it in order to run the thing that I have paid for. So please don’t say that all of us are bad guys who are talking bad about activation. If I would not want, I would not buy the stuff, but I bought the things cos I am using them to make programs for people, so they would not have to deal with any “complications” in the future, all stuff is "legal" here. So, Windows XP is not a big deal for us, guys who likes to play and learn things and not to be gugged by any "parental wizards". I would get volume licensed CD of Windows XP and will not have to worry about any "cracks" at all if I wanted to, that is if you are so concerned about me sweating my butt during "8 steps installation process". And I can install that CD on as many machines as I want to (and give it away) without activating them. That's what is going to happen with "pirated" CDs, there will not be a crack in most of cases, but Volume Licensed copies, which will be distributed on the Net for free.

Anyway, I am not against MS, I am using their stuff and making money off of it and like their stuff a lot. I am just telling you what is going to happen. People who were using illegal copies will continue to use them, people who used legal copies, which came with their PC, will continue to use them without even thinking about any inconveniences, and people who were complaining since Window 95 came out will continue to complain. Life will go on as it were, so there is no point of proving anything to anyone anymore. Every body will stick with their own mind set no matter what you say to them (and to me:o) But it is done, so MS will have trigger (just say activation servers are down and will not be fixed due to being "old") to deactivate OS at any time in the near future and put everyone into "upgrade" boat again. That is so abvious, how come no body is noticing it.

Have fun.

no one has mentioned the issue that has already reared its ugly head with Office 2k. The issue of needing the original CD to add features. For a service company, this is a nightmare.

Most small business users simply toss all of their CD's into a drawer. During a change in setup, this requires considerable time to find the "right" cd. In my experience. Most small businesses are willing to comply with licensing when they understand it, but will be unwilling to pay for the extra hour of my time to search through their CD's.

Before you say, get organized, remember this is one more hassle and requirement in addition to the thousands already imposed by government. Most do not have the time to deal with current regs.

just my 2 pence worth.

i'm still a happy windows 3.1 user :)

im sure they do medication for that dont they?

Have you upgraded to MS-DOS 5.0 or are you still on MS-DOS 3.3? =)

I Have always Had thoughts about How the hardware/Software market Should be. My Idea of he Software market is... Standardisation. All Hardware and software Should be Standardised as a Single Platform. I may be Old fashond However The End user Licence agreements I feel is Nothing more then a Forced Contract and I think is Ageninst My Rights. To run a Program i Have to buy the Box say from Wal mart, open it, Break the seal of the CD Then I Might can see the Licence if it is sealed inside the cd case. or Wait until i start the Instal and There is the So called Agreement. OK So I do not agree with this agreement. I half to Box the program Back up and Take it Back to Walmart Tell them i do not Agree With the Licence Agreement. The cusomer service Rep there will say "You opened the box and our Polocy says You cannot return The Open software Except to Exchange it with the same Title" Basically I Own it Right? WRONG I OWN MEDIA and not the software. Thats what the Agreement says. My Feeling is The old way... I "BUY" My copy of the software, Agreement says I Cannot reverse Engeneer it. Why not? if i feel i can make it work better for me if i say change the desktop lay out or say add or remove a feature from scorce code. or remove a bunch of extra lines of code and combine lines of code to do a function more effeciently I would say go for it. If MS could allow users to Modify their scorce codes on OUR OWN Software and say hey Why not send this to microsoft and see if they could use the change as a service pack. I was a shareware Artest for Commodore 64. I had over 2000 Users of my BBS Software Registered and some of the registeed users of my programs would send me scorce they written to better my program And i enjoyed their input. Plus those that "owned a copy of my registered product" got free Upgrades. and those who provided input on my Program got credit and they enjoyed seeing their name in my credits screen.

in a nut shell i think i should own my copy of my software, modify it to where i see fit for my own use, register with microsoft or vendors is my option. after all when i buy a media with someones software on it I payd for 10 Copies of it WHy can i not get licenced for those 10? That was a figure i read someware that programers figure for every 1 sold 10 would be pireted.

Jimmy

The differance between home and business.

1: Business makes money by using software and can afford to pay the price, since they actually profit by its use. MOST HOME USER DO NOT MAKE ANY PROFIT WHATSOEVER. MAKING IT VERY HARD TO JUSTIFY BUYING MULTIPLE COPY'S SINCE THIERS NO RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT.

2: Business gets large pricing breaks, because they buy in volume. on averge they pay far less per copy than a home user. SO WHERE'S A PRICE BREAK ON MULTIPLE COPY'S FOR THE HOME? THE PLACE WHERE NO PROFITS ARE GAINED FROM ITS USAGE WHATSOEVER.

3: What I believe would be fair. Home versions should come with a 3-5 user licence. Since thier pricing for thier home version's are very expensive, comparing the price that business's pay. This would solve a lot F>U>D that MS is facing in the home market and might restore some customer loyalty.

4: People do not care about MS bottom line any more than MS cares about its home users. Its all about greed and profit. MS better start caring about the home users, because thier the ones that that keep those companys running and make decisions on what platform they run.

Lets say I'm a IT manager and have to install 10 extra servers at work. Lets assume its a MS shop. At home I have 5 computers and installed Linux, because I refuse to pay MS those high prices and
have gotten comfortable and understand Linux. I decide to take a chance and install 10 linux servers at work. 6 months down the road the linux servers are doing fine and the company is very happy that those Linux servers are stable and they have saved a lot of cash not paying MS licensing fee's for those servers.
Why did this happen? What happens at home does reflect what happens at work. Take heed MS the world as a whole doesnt care about you either.

Remember the talk of Microsoft making a Linux distribution a while back? I'd like to see a Linux distribution with these protections on it. That would be better than Saturday Night Live!!

Let them spend their money putting in protections. All of which will be cracked eitherway. I guess it will stop a regular Billy on the block from sharing their Windows, but then what was the last time you asked a regular Billy for a copy of Windows?? Exactly.

I wish you'd asked some follow-up questions! You ask what happens if a user exceeds the allotted activations and he doesn't answer and you just went on to the next question! That question was the key to the whole thing. I'm disappointed.

Totally Agree with you, sierra.

This question was the key to the whole interview and BN let him duck it! FOR SHAME! The last time I put a Win98 computer together I had to install Win98 three times before I got the updated chip set drivers and video drivers to not crash to system.

From most of the posters, I have learned:
1) seems the only "good" software is free, OpenSource, or pirated
2) Microsoft should give everything away it pays its people to make
3) even though Microsoft software/code is absolute crap, everyone wants it/has to have it, whether legally or illegally (mostly illegally)
4) saying anything bad or negative about Linux means you are a Microsoft employee, drone, or zombie

Which brings me to think the war between MS and linux users is akin to racial and religious wars- extremely STUPID wars fought by extremely NARROW MINDED mental midgets.
I don't give a tinker's damn what software you use. Use what you want, just don't blast me for using something different. This is (to me) just as bad as blaming a video game for the Columbine shootings, or D&D games, or saying "The GUN killed them, not the ones pulling the trigger!"

James Wheat, owner The Computer Wizard
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

Ooooohhhh, direct hit! Give the man 1 000 000 points!

If that is all you have learned so far, you have a lot more to learn.

Maybe you should rethink "computerwizard" in your domain name.

Wait, let's see, yea anyone who charges $35/hour for computer work has a lot more to learn :)
http://belprecomputerwizard.com/services.htm

hehe thats probably the funniest comment i've read all morning :o)

Why do I need to learn more because I only charge $35 per hour? Do I need to charge $120, or more? What has that got to do with anything??

James

Well, I agree with the bit about the OS wars being stupid :) They both have their good points, as far as I'm concerned, and I do get tired of the narrow-minded "my OS is great and yours sucks ass" rubbish.

Still, we live in a world that thrives on war. Sad but true! No amount of b****in' or... 'intriguing' posts like this can change it.

If you are actually charging money for computer work you must be a member of the evil empire! After all; all intellectual property should be free, capitalism should be abandoned in favor of communism (which worked so well in Russia), no one should ever pay for entertainment, no one should ever pay anyone for computer work... In short, these idiots think they know how to create a better world that does not use money...

gfunk, thanks for the "free advertising" of my rates. I forgot to thank you for that :-)
I am getting more business from people tired of spending a week's pay on a half hour computer work since you posted my labor rate, so AGAIN, THANKS for the advertising! LOL!!!

James
http://belprecomputerwizard.com

In the quote:
"..a commitment to end user privacy..."
Does that mean he's committing to bring user privacy to a stop? :)

nice literal reading but you know what it really meant. The thing here is that they would be in deep s*** if they did enfringe on actually spying. that is why he made it clear about the hashing bind with the key internal. anyway it is good to see there is still a sense of humor around. this place needs an enima.

ps. I swear I didnt hit the comment button twice down the page but accidently I did hit the back button. for that I am truly sorry my 10 cents became 20cents half of which was the same money. 8^p

I think he meant to say "piracy" and it came out wrong.
BUT, if he did mean what he said, that's asking for trouble.

What should have been written is "end-user privacy", that would have made it a whole lot better, I just had to read it over again after the first time to get the real meaning. :)

You would think that with all the "top brains" working at Microsoft, they would have by now realised why their OSs are pirated so much.
Take Windows 98 as an example. They released W98 and charged for it, They then trumpeted W98SE and charged for it. Then the ultimate insult was Windows ME. Sold as a new Windows, it was nothing more than an upgrade to 98 and again they charged a lot of money for it.
If Microsoft had any brains, they would reduce the overpriced OS releases and capture the majority of people who would otherwise get pirated copies.
Windows 98 is only one example of over pricing their products, look at the price of Office 2000 - scandalous, I say.
Frankly, I now use ME os and it will be a long time before I put more dollars in the world's richest mans pocket!!!

actually Win98SE was a free upgrade to Win98, i sent of for it and got it for the price of the postage from M$!! so they are not that greedy, seeing as it was shipped from the stats to europe for me!

I remember paying 19.95 for SE. I eventually got the full copy for free but there was more than a shipping charge included in the upgrade....

price of shipping? uh huh... i remember ordering one of their beta products a while ago, it was "free"! all i had to pay was shipping! man shipping for flimsy light cds sure is high.. i think it was $10 to ship a 2 cd set in generic cd mailers...

I would like to know what people such as myself do. I buy a new mobo and cpu every 2 months or so. A new video card every 6 months. New cd-burner every time there is a faster one. I reformat every time I upgrade and at least once every 2 weeks to keep my system clean. The only constants in my system is my nic, I even upgrade HSD every 6 months or so.

If this goes through I will soon be on a first name basis with the people at microsoft, and I will be damned before that happenes. I'll either stick with Windows 2000 or warez Windows XP.

Or better yet just never register. I almost always reformatt within 14 days, I think the longest I have gone without reformatting this past year is 3 weeks anyway.

Man...do you work? You have a LOT of time on your hands.

Dude, you must be independantly RICH, with nothing to do, EVER, to be able to do all that!!

James

Then you sir are a certifiable moron.

Why?? I can understand being into gadgets and upgrading components but why all this obsessive reformatting...??

Yes I have known for awile that I have a slight obsession with reformatting, which is strange because in the days of windows 95, 98, and windows 2000 beta testing I always thought "I dont need to reinstall upgrades work perfectly"

Anyway I sell off my old hardware (the locals call me the used hardware pimp) to help pay for the new, I currently have a Athlon system with to much to mention, but within a month im upgradeing to dual Pentium 3 1ghz with DDR.

and when I say I reformat at least once every 2 weeks, well its more because I reformatt for all the Windows XP builds as well (separate partitions for separate os) and I am in the cpp so its not quite piracy.

Did I mention I just upgraded from radeon 64 VIVO to a Geforce3? only about 3 months between those cards :)

what are you trying to prove with those comments? that you have no life other than formatitng your PC, or that you're "cool" cause you waste money on new hardware every 2 weeks?

either way, you sound like a damn fool to me.

Oh jeez, its another one of those "I want a cookie because my computer kicks butt" guys. Do you really think anyone gives two rats butts what you do with your hardware? I mean you come in and start talking about your computer like you are married to it. Wait let me guess....you ARE one of those guys who can't find anything else to spend your money on (example girls....well, you do spend money on girls..but then they turn out to be 12 year old boys that you thought were girls in that internet chat room).

I feel really bad for your kind of guy. You make us normal guys who treat our women with respect (because we have women....refer to 12 yr old boy comment above to reference what you have) and love. Most girls think big dork when they hear the word computer. Tis simply not true.

You must absolutely be anal retentive to format every two weeks, and buy that much new hardware. Wait...another epiphany...I bet you are that guy on the block that entices the neighbor kids into the house with your cool new stuff. You are the most popular guy with the 12 yr olds....if only mom could see you now. I bet you'd actually have a coronary if someone messed up your computer. And that my friend...is a damn shame.

I hope that one day you will look at yourself in the mirror and either pull that stick out of your butt or go find a woman and realize that love and women are the key to happiness...not your computer and its 2-month old motherboard.

Oh by the way...here is your cookie....

I live in Australia and have been deeply offended by Microsoft's action, making my very expensive MSOffice 2000 install like 'trialware'. I significantly upgrade my computer around twice in each year,and always reinstall (it is good practice to do so!) when I upgrade. Every single time Office has gone through the same trialware routine. I have registered every single piece of software I have bought from Microsoft through the last ten years, have used Windows and Office through many versions. Now Microsoft deals with me as if I am a potential thief and I will now look for viable alternatives in OS's and productivity suites that don't query my honesty as MS feels they have the right to do.

"Deeply offended" ???

Are you offended when you must pass through a metal detector at the airport or show your drivers license when a police officer pulls you over? What about when you must give a complete payment history before you are "allowed" to make a purchase? Does this mean that you are a suspected terrorist or a flake who does not pay his bills.

We all must pay for the criminals behavior by giving up some of our personal freedoms and rights, yet you still see messages here that say "I'll just get it from a warez website or I'll just wait for the "crack".

These are the people who should bear the brunt of your rage not Microsoft!

People that make statements like these are ignorant and totally clueless, they are the criminals. These people are the ones responsible for things like product activation and the high price of software, yet they scream and yell about "their" right's while taking action that causes everyone to lose more. Sheesh!

Of course you're right! But, you know what? I heard knives are sometimes used to kill people. That is, of course, Evil (tm). So, we should, as should be clear to any level headed person such as yourself, outlaw knives!

Again I say that the bottom line is that the pirates *will* find a way to break the protection no matter what it is. Microsoft know this very well. So why are they pushing through with this activation BS? I do not know. But I know damn well it has very little (if anything) to do with piracy...

about the only thing that would deeply offend me is that damn physical after my 40th birthday . Jesus
seriously people are still not getting the message here. Activation of this is painless for the purchaser. liscensed individuals get carte blanche treatment even by email. In most cases 20 minutes! The actual activation took less than a second and like the man said the hash bind and the key were internal. Try it >you'll like it. I have reinstalled /ripped hardware /installed hardware. Of course I could replace my nic and reactivate or my motherboard but I have 10/100's all around and for christ sake I still have my damn genius matching NE2000 10base cards and they still work. better yet they even work with xp. I will clue the unaware in on something as well. If it has drivers in most cases it will not even tell you "found new hardware"!
It just installs and works. Bottom line better is gonna cost more.
Heck I gave ME to my kids , I will give them xp next but the server app is mine hehe.They continue to expand the HCL as they werent totally aware of all the hardware these people could come up with and we had people who were so bored they are looking for ancient software just so they could run it in comp mode. face it people whether you are gonna want it with or without a face and especially if you are a multitasking god like myself "just kidding" with as much ram as you can stuff in the box "cheap right now" Your gonna love it so get over it. end /rant

your right its mom and pop sharing a copy on two machines. we knew it would be figured out soon so that is why he came right out and said it., BTW breathing is also still the leading cause of death or it would seem so since 100% of all people who died were doing it right before they kicked the bucket. any day above ground is a good one.

Yes you might be right that activation is quick and easy. But I don't think you get it yet. People are concerned about the activation process when it works. They are concerned about the activation process when it DOESN'T work. Or worse yet, when the activation process gets abused.

Hackers are going to find a way around activation which leaves businesses and individuals to feel the brunt of the pain of Windows activation. This is what I truly believe is the biggest flaw in the activation scheme.

i don't know grturne, but seeing as how he lives in australia and apparently has been subjected to microsoft's "pilot" for the new anti-piracy measures, it seems he would know whether or not this activation is painless or not. from what he said, it sounds like its not very painless at all, and that it is, in fact, quite annoying and a hassle. why make installing software/hardware any more difficult then it already is? its already bad enough when you install a new piece of hardware that conflicts with another piece of hardware or doesn't have correct drivers for your OS, don't you think it'd be even worse if you still have those problems, except now you also have to contact Microsoft in order to keep your OS going because you added/changed your hardware?

No I understood completely but it is becoming a dead issue at this point. No one can prevent them from doing what they want. They own it.
I was under the impression this was a toll free call even if it didnt reactivate online. I have not heard of any reports of anyone being caught in a rude situation reactivating until now Usually when something like that occurs it would point too only two possibilties. Either they handed out their key to so many people that MS is having a hard time seeing who owned it and looking for proof or number two their claims of having trouble are nothing more than spin doctor moves from a fraud. I am sure it might be a little different in test areas overseize but have you ever been over there>? For instance I was in Moscow last year and in broad daylight near the train station the copy software businesses littered the walkways with anything and everything you might imagine.
Anyway back on subject > I have reactivated with no problem so I cant say as to what happens if the thing says there is a problem and to call microsoft. I have others in our intitial 20,000 people here in the states who have though and the maximum wait was like 20 minutes with an apology. I do know for a fact all that I mentioned above is fact as I am a part of it. As far as control groups in other countries with the lax in international enforcement capabilities , I am quite sure it is tougher due to the hire crime rate they have and I understand microsoft making it more difficult . Here is another thought for all here to digest about that. The people handling these countries oversieze are generally nationals of that country what ever it is. point in case> For instance the US Embassy in the phillipines involving the Phillipino people trying to get to the United States .
All of the case workers in the Embassy are Phillipino and almost all of them take money across the counter just like DFA and the phillipino customs where you get a visa. Money talks and BS walks on a daily basis . The small amount of controllers who are US born citizens cannot watch it all and what goes on . When in Rome you do as the Romans do so to speak. I can't speak for Austraila totally but have seen the same thing in Russia , Egypt , Holland , P.I. , India
and even in outlying Islands around the US which are possesions but not neccessarily governed that way. I feel for them but I have personally been in discussions in these places where I told them it was wrong what they were doing and they laughed and said : well isnt that the American Way? >I responded umm NO! Have you ever been in the US and they responded umm NO! So I asked them what they based the assumumption on and got anything from a TV description to Oh I listen to propaganda radio. It is truly sad that Americans for the most part have really no Idea what it is like due to the fact that they live in a world of rules that protect while others have to use what is available to get what they are after which is based off a viewing of a soap opera made in the states and viewed abroad.
So there it is > I doubt very seriously anything said here at betanews is going to change that fact and the people oversieze only out is to try and stir enough crap to get a US investigation going to bring it to court. Highly doubtful again. Bottom line if you dont like it you dont have to buy it but casual copying is their target and one which they will hit hard . These copyers can go the warez way but I would suggest they not allow the cracked OS online due to the distinct possibility of underlying code that will contact its maker and say hey I am here and running.
And your right though on all points of what you are probably thinking right now. I am thinking with the vast amount of people who do this already "SO". It will make no difference because there are too many people who will I am sure. They will have an expensive list which if trackable they could generate more law enforcement and you could have the software Nazis at your door. Hmmm remains to be seen but I wont worry about it. Not my Ploblem > Good Luck to all in the debate but it really doesnt concern me in the least. Thanks

jeez, yet another communist.

I'll never buy anything computer related that "Has to be replaced because of use", An OS is not a T-s*** that has to be replaced after you've used it a lot.
I update my machine constantly, like hell im going to pay 300 dollars each 6 months just to have an OS.

I'll wait for the warez version, thank you microsoft.

Microsoft has always over-priced most their software. This has brought on massive attempts to hack and crack everything they produce.

Their response is to tighten the reigns on their Intellectual Property. Claiming not only that they have a right to protect it, but also to protect their exhorbitant pricing structure AND their right to force users to utilize their platforms.

Micrsoft IS a monopoly. Every aspect of their business proves this.

Just look at the big picture....

If Microsoft didn't force users to upgrade their current products or charge prices that are completely out of reach for the lower income computer users, there wouldn't be as much piracy. It would still be there because there are people that just refuse to pay for software or simply enjoy cracking software, but it sure wouldn't be as prevelant. You don't see as much hacking and cracking going on in the low-priced software market.

God forbid people crack the software 'cause it's "good" software...! Don't give 'em credit or anything, just make up a reason like people crack their software 'cause it's too expensive. Whatever.

How do you say 'what a load of crap!' nicely? ...

"If Microsoft didn't force users to upgrade their current products or charge prices that are completely out of reach for the lower income computer users, there wouldn't be as much piracy." On what do you base this idiotic claim? And just to prove that it is completely wrong I'll use your next comment...
"You don't see as much hacking and cracking going on in the low-priced software market"...Ahh yes, so many examples I could give here...let's use BulletPoint FTP as an example, (cost = $30 or so), has had every single version of it cracked ever since it came out by multiple cracking groups. So as you can see, the amount of piracy is directly proportional to the popularity of a particular program. Therefore it may be quite hard to find a crack for some shareware application that a lot of people don't use, but damn easy to find a crack for any application widely used. Warez works in the same way...the easiest applications to find are the most popular applications.

So rather than makign idiotic "MONOPOLY" comments, learn about economics, since MS isn't the only company to charge huge amounts for their software.

Does anyone remember that the main reason that Windows 3.1 was widely used and one of the main reasons it became the standard was because of how much it was pirated. Microsoft is Microsoft because of pirating. Doesn't make it right, but it is ironic, isn't it.

Maybe you should learn a little about economics before you start making warezish comments about Bullet FTP!

Read any recent articles about Microsoft forcing customers to upgrade to XP or else suffer finicial consequences? That sounds a little monopolistic to me. Read any major tech newsite and you will have seen numerouse articles pertaining to this topic.

Maybe you should spend more time reading and less time posting.

There really is no problem here that I can see.

It does not infringe on privacy (I have seen no intelligent data pointing to any other conclusion)

It helps MS and will help MS cut casual copying. This is not a problem since most 'casual copiers' are unaware that they are infringing and they have alternatives.

It does NOT set back pirating. There are two ways around the activation: Cracks, and copy of the software distributed under the Open License program. These will be readily accessible by anyone with an internet connection and the will to hunt it down (Which doesn't really take much, I mean, if I can get copies of all of their products before they even get released to retailers, pretty much anyone can.)

It helps MS and does not hinder the motivated pirater. This is actually good news, folks. The less casual copying, which makes up most of the companies 'pirating' losses, will most likely make it EASIER for the piraters in the long run.

Suppose MS decides, some 5 years down the line, that XP is obsolete. And, in order to "give the users the best possible computing experience" (never to put more cash in their bank accounts!), they decide to stop reactivating it. Since most people would have moved to later editions (or other platforms) by then, the cries of the few who are still happy with XP will go totally unheard, I guarantee you. What right does MS have to tell me when I should pay them more money?

Finally some voice of reason on this message board.

My thoughts exactly. The problem with activation is the control Microsoft gets over your PC.

I'm not taking sides here but I'd just like to add my comments.

The way I see it is this:

Activation, takes a unique identifier from all your hardware, generates a hash, gets the activiation from MS.

If you change any of your hardware and reinstall it knows some of the hardware hasn't changed and therefore the hash still gets activated from MS.

If you change _ALL_ your hardware you will need to contact MS for reactivation.

So unless your entire pc changes you shouldn't run into any problems, and if you do its a 2 minute anonymous free phone call to MS to get the PID reactivated - not so hard really is it? How long did you wait for your Linux distro download the other day?

Piracy:

Hows is this going to effect everyone. For the honest people that buy their software - not one little bit. For those that casually copy the software just to try for a few hours, it won't effect them either. (XP runs for 14 days before requiring activation).

For those who want to use it permanently, it will effect them a great deal, they will either need to use the crack (if available and working) or buy a legal license or find another solution.

Either way I don't see that anyone should be allowed to use software that comes at a price, especially when other people pay it. If you don't want to pay use something thats free, there are plenty of alternatives.

For those of you whinging that MS are shooting themselves in the foot? Why do you say that, if someone doesn't want to pay for the right to use software, thats their choice and they can find another solution. The linux community is raving at how good their software is, so why do any of you care that MS has activation on their products?

I see people say that MS are going to loose customers from this, but I disaggree, if a person wasn't going to pay for the software to start with, what has MS lost? Certainly not the revenue. Maybe all these people that don't want to pay for the software will be forced to use an alternative. If this is the case they will either like the alternative or find that they actually have to pay for XP.

When a team has thousands of people working day and night to get software ready, don't you think they have the right to make sure everyone pays for the right to use their work?

Problem #1 with your comment. It will never be a simple 2 minute phone call to get your product re-activated. I expect at least 30 minute hold times compared to other tech support and customer support lines.

Problem #2: When was the last time you saw a major application or game released for Linux before Windows, or even at all?

Problem #3: Microsoft isn't going to loose customers, they are simply going to alienate their customers and more of them will resist upgrading while continuing to use their current Microsoft software.

if the hardware hash was as simple as you just explained, then the activation based on hardware wouldn't do much good. i have a linksys network card in my computer, i install windowsxp and activate it. i then ghost my harddrive, temporarily put the linksys in my friends comp, copy my ghost to his harddrive, and, according to your description of how the activation works, all is well in the world and i just "casual" pirated the software to my friend. i'm assumming the actual protection measures are slightly more advanced then simply checking to see if someone has changed all their hardware.

abe burdened with such bunk.

There was one thing I was really interested to hear... whether or not MS would keep updating the code (probably via Windows Update) to counter the various cracks.

And every time BetaNews mentioned it, Allen Nieman just wriggled out of the question with some line like "We'll analyse the situation"!

Well, maybe that means "yes". *Shrug*
And no, it doesn't bother me - I use Linux for work and a PS2 for games ;)

well, i did not try win xp, but i plan to order it for my lab at work, for one computer, i do alot of testing, and sometimes, i even change the computers, i do not pirate the software got alot of money to burn for the lab, but does that mean that i have to call ms, or reactivate that? this is really stupid, besides, i like to format and reinstall every month, will that make me go into all this steps too, i mean this is ridiculous, why would i want to go into this crap, really really stupid...i think this is not about piracy, is more about microsoft getting into people's computers, and find out what they do, i really think this is wrong, and then what happens to the pirated software? hmm...is like getting into my house without a warrant, they do own the code, but i own the rights to use it and put it on what i want, if it is in their liecense aggrements, and if it is pirated, hell, i am still protected, since they can not come into my house, and if i have one copy, what will happen, probation, or a small fine, lol, or i might have to buy it, i use me, is ok, but crappy, really crapy, crashes really bad, more like 3 times every week, or more, i wish they made a better os, and i have winmodems, and integrated s***, really, that causes all the problems, most of my crashes come from the win lt modem, and wdm...so, finaly i do not care about whatever s*** they do, to protect against piracy, but do not tell me what i can and can not do, plus, do not try to monitor me, and i can install it on everything i want, and as long as i bought it

I didn't want this to go to waste down at the bottom of this news thread.

"
Microsoft provides a toll free 800 number to activiate the OS for those without internet access or for those who prefer not to use the internet to activate their product. I am one of the academic Office 2000 guinea pigs and I have to say this product activation os no problem.

To the guy above who seems to find it necessary to reinstall Windows frequently, Office 2000 installs and reactivates quite nicely. I only had one problem when I broke with the EULA. A quick call to Microsof tcleared up the problem, the support staff reset all my registration info and I was able to install Office 2000 on a second machine in accordance with the EULA. (I had previously installed and then removed Office 2000 from a second desktop. The registration stuck and I was unable to install Office on a new laptop I had acquired.)"

It is really not a big deal.

dude, what the hell r u talking about, office 2k???? registering??? do you even know what windows XP / Office XP is ? Its the code name for 2001 (server = 2002), if you register office 2k and call ms to reinstall then you are one of the most stupid people ive come across... And by the way 2k doesnt include any kind of register track, and the registering has been cracked before, itll be doable again, last and definately not least, WHY USE WINDOWS XP??? Get windows 2000, its faster, more stable, and with the new patches out many games work with it and if you have a halfway decent graphic card then games will actually work...

Theres my 2 cents...

How about you read the story and other people's threads? If you had you'd realise that Microsoft beta-tested the whole Activation process for some time now using certain places/people to test it on. One of those tests was done with Office 2000 (given to certain people...aka guinea pigs). Hence yes, your version and most people's version of Office 2000 didn't have Activation in it, but some did. That's what he is talking about. The fact the Activation process was of no issue. Thanks for your 2c

According to this article, the academic version of Office 2000 was a testbed for their activation procedure and process. I have an academic license of Office 2000 since I bought it while getting my MFA at Boston U. Therefore I have already been indoctrinated into the process and I can state for a fact that it's not a big deal. You really need to change the whole system and then some before this becomes a hassle.

Now don't you feel silly for getting completely and uncontrollably upset and yelling at somebody that was, as it turns out, completely right? We need more calmness in these forums.

Office 2000 SR-1 also includes the activation scheme, although there is an easy work around for corporate networks.

If Windows XP is really good, I would buy the product without thinking(provided it has a reasonable price). But the price makes the different. Sometimes Micro$oft products' pirces are damn expensive. Who will buy if the price is 30 or 40 times more expensive than the pirvated software? I hope Micro$soft will think twice before they list the price for their products.

Who would? The people who want to survive in business, the people who dont want to go to jail. You use privated software at home doesnt mean the other people do the same thing.

either side of the coin Microsoft rules and operates as a fully functional business with >profit. Xp is a fine system but not so much over the barrel that you couldnt do just as well with win2kprof. Bottom line besides wpa etc. all you really get xtra in xp is a face and some trinkets. cd burning does backups and data not iso's. third party replaceable. ics in in 2k as well . Icf is a far cry from competitve with anything networked unless I see some UI that will allow more options. XP server does slightly more though and is pretty sweet but working really not much better than 2kserver. Either way all
will be happy including MS. Dont like the price of XP? Get win2k and
live in classic mode. personally alot of my xp install is in classic due to the fact that I prefer it. ease of use and quickness of deployment would be my excuse. My statement about getting 2k cheaper would come with a simple answer we all know. Buy an OEM with a dead drive from a legal seller not violating eula.
Addressing one more small tidbit that xp has 2k doesnt and this one is the one you pay for. remote desktop although scaled down for 1 op usage in xp does not come with win2k nor is it anywhere near as nice as win2k servers terminal services but it does work and far better than most 3rd party apps. I am still debating on the price upgrading server to XP/whistler/2002 or whatever as I am quite content with server. setup with both they boot about the same but I am spoiled in the fact that I like innovation and new toys and I am hopelessly addicted to windows update. I will probably therefore do it hehe.
There is no real downside to wpa either since that is the topic. Options options options . always where there is a will there is a legal way without donating a left nut to science. I have infact taken a triboot configged machine with xp on it and made multiple hardware changes some of which were soundcard/videocard/switched basic board ide to promise ultra 100/added drives|changed burners and no affect nor did it ask that I reactivate. note: I know others that have replaced motherboard and nic cards and the moment you do this it does ask for re-activation so regaurdless on a no answer up the page rest assured that the hash grabs mac addresses in its writing reinstalled as well just to see + after I updated win2ksrv with sp2 there was some issue with sp2 messing around which a simple repair boot and fixboot command put me right back on track so that I could go and get the update for xp that I probably should have installed first but had not checked to see it was there. XP is pretty nice and for some will be the way but not totally needed with win2k out there at a reasonable price. And best of all for MS either choice spells survival which is something I think deep down inside we all hope happens.
Also I was happy to see rc1 has picked up its pace. I await its arrival. No need to bother with any other builds until then 2462a runs just fine. Hell what more could anyone ask. Surely anyone who has been here a while can remember how bad betas used to be even though in this fast pace world most wouldnt want to even think about that time because it is area that has been overwritten and packed away in our minds. Just my 10 cents worth : )

either side of the coin Microsoft rules and operates as a fully functional business with >profit. Xp is a fine system but not so much over the barrel that you couldnt do just as well with win2kprof. Bottom line besides wpa etc. all you really get xtra in xp is a face and some trinkets. cd burning does backups and data not iso's. third party replaceable. ics in in 2k as well . Icf is a far cry from competitve with anything networked unless I see some UI that will allow more options. XP server does slightly more though and is pretty sweet but working really not much better than 2kserver. Either way all
will be happy including MS. Dont like the price of XP? Get win2k and
live in classic mode. personally alot of my xp install is in classic due to the fact that I prefer it. ease of use and quickness of deployment would be my excuse. My statement about getting 2k cheaper would come with a simple answer we all know. Buy an OEM with a dead drive from a legal seller not violating eula.
Addressing one more small tidbit that xp has 2k doesnt and this one is the one you pay for. remote desktop although scaled down for 1 op usage in xp does not come with win2k nor is it anywhere near as nice as win2k servers terminal services but it does work and far better than most 3rd party apps. I am still debating on the price upgrading server to XP/whistler/2002 or whatever as I am quite content with server. setup with both they boot about the same but I am spoiled in the fact that I like innovation and new toys and I am hopelessly addicted to windows update. I will probably therefore do it hehe.
There is no real downside to wpa either since that is the topic. Options options options . always where there is a will there is a legal way without donating a left nut to science. I have infact taken a triboot configged machine with xp on it and made multiple hardware changes some of which were soundcard/videocard/switched basic board ide to promise ultra 100/added drives|changed burners and no affect nor did it ask that I reactivate. note: I know others that have replaced motherboard and nic cards and the moment you do this it does ask for re-activation so regaurdless on a no answer up the page rest assured that the hash grabs mac addresses in its writing reinstalled as well just to see + after I updated win2ksrv with sp2 there was some issue with sp2 messing around which a simple repair boot and fixboot command put me right back on track so that I could go and get the update for xp that I probably should have installed first but had not checked to see it was there. XP is pretty nice and for some will be the way but not totally needed with win2k out there at a reasonable price. And best of all for MS either choice spells survival which is something I think deep down inside we all hope happens.
Also I was happy to see rc1 has picked up its pace. I await its arrival. No need to bother with any other builds until then 2462a runs just fine. Hell what more could anyone ask. Surely anyone who has been here a while can remember how bad betas used to be even though in this fast pace world most wouldnt want to even think about that time because it is area that has been overwritten and packed away in our minds. Just my 10 cents worth : )

"Who will buy if the price is 30 or 40 times more expensive than the pirvated software?"

30 X $0 for pirated = $0

heck i'd buy winxp for that price!

I see it this way, if Windows XP will be the great OS everyone predicts it to be, then I will buy it (long as it isnt too fricken dear like everything else in AUS) legally and activate it happily with microsoft. (wont bother with office XP since i allready got it cracked and RTM version).

My point is if im getting qaulity software, then i wont mind paying for it and activating it. But i gotta say current activation is getting too much out of hand.

The very last question dealt with large deployments of XP, and the guy said that there would be no activation required for the Microsoft Select License, so all it takes is one copy of that to leak out, correct? Or am I missing something here?

I find it amusing that Betanews is pretending to be respectable now. When Windows 98 SE was in beta, this site in its original form was a warez site posting CD keys for it. I wonder if Microsoft remembers that? I think not, else they wouldnt be granting interviews to you. I might forward the information on to MS. :)

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am sure that Microsoft would not listen to it.

i think it is stupid how all of you people are moaning about this new protection that microsoft after putting into there next generation OS. If you buy a copy of Windows XP or Office XP legally then you will have your original CD etc so if you do upgrade loads and loads or reformat every week you wont have any problems with microsoft giving you a new key! if you have a pirated version of them then you dont deserve to be able to use it! it is very simple. if you dont want to pay for an OS use a free one like Linux or something, you are the people who say Open Source will rule so use that instead and let me worry about my WindowsXP activation code when i upgrade! if you aint gonna pay £150 for an OS every 3 or 4 years i dont thin ku have any right to use that OS, i have bought every copy of Windows i own and every copy of Office, im not stupid as the programs are good and do what i want, i too run linux but i prefer Windows so i buy it and use it istead, if linux was what i wanted i wouldnt pay for Windows simple!

August rolls around and MS releases XP. The week of its release some ingenious hackers figures out a way to shut down the activation servers: thousands of people will be stuck with brand new copies of XP that they cant register and use. Forget the phones too, they would be completely overwhelmed.

That would definitely bring an end to this scheme...

If this becomes MS new strategy; you will see more and more users moving to open source distributions (i.e. Red Hat, Mandrake, and Caldera). Which will create more and more demand for open source based apps. Which will event replace the need for MS products...

You need to stop smoking all that crack. Home users make up a small percentage of the computer market. Businesses will invest in Windows XP and their employees will buy copies for home use to have the same OS at home as they do at work.

Pipe dream. As long as there is not distinct channel through which money can flow to those who contribute to development, you will never see 'open source' be more productive than coporate development. RE: Ms product activation initiative, it offers new challenges, but appears not to infringe on personal rights or privacy. At least, I haven't seen any real strong arguments that support the privacy allegation.

I don't have any concerns with MS implementing this "feature" and protecting their IP. My only concern is at what threshold MS will stop re-activation. I make constant hardware changes to my PC, including changing motherboards every 6-8 months. I don't think as a legitimate user I should be forced to buy or go through hoops to prove to MS that this is the only computer I have loaded this on and that it's the 10th time I've made hardware changes to it!!

what if you require a format of your computer for one reason or another? (bored one day or something)

will the activation thing screw you? (if you didn't have a crack)

No. You'll just have to reactivate over the Internet or by calling.

Its like Microsoft said. "Microsoft knows that product activation in Windows XP or Office XP will someday be cracked" It will be cracked. Everyone knows. Just wait till it comes out. Grab a friend that has a copy. Burn it. Enjoy. Nothing will ever stop that. Ever. Not Microsoft, not the government, nobody. That is reality. Deal with it.

One thing we should rember. Micro$oft stole the GUI from Apple years ago. They Pirated it!
Software piracy is getting out of hand. I will buy XP when it comes out because I am using 2465 now and I love it!
The game makers started this a few years ago.
My point here is get all the free betas you can but support M$ in thier final product. I hope it's not a buggy one like 95, 98, 98se, 2000, and Me was.

And Apple stole it from Xerox - this is nothing new and not nearly the same thing. Sparking the personal computer era by using ideas and concepts that were not for sale and just kind of sitting around is different from actually stealing an actual product by using it without paying for it.

If i have to pay for an upgrade every damn 2 years!!!!! oh wait... I have never paid for software...:)

Like it's not gonna be cracked wide open a week after release!!!
you have the internet population against the Microsoft Corp... lemme think who's gonna win...
Long Live Piracy!

/me begins to seriously worry about the next generation of humans.

Nice attitude.

There have always been - and always will be - morons. Nothing has changed.

Oops! Guess I left my halo at the brothel last night. You people are so moralistic it's hilarious. What happened to the hackers/crackers around here?

They are probably busy trying to figure out how to con their next welfare check or screaming at someone about unfair the world is to them. A loser is a loser.

This is just to stop the "Casual Copying." You all know what I am talking about. You lend a friend your cd. They expect crackers to break it, that is why it was so easy, but its not so easy for the average computer user is it. So complaining about it is useless. Either crack it, get the right key, or buy it.

MS doesn't really care. That is the big thing. They don't care. They expect it.

How many times has MS crack down on one person. They don't. They do however crack down on people illegaly selling pirated copies.

Okay MS say it against priacy but they stole the idea of a gui interface form apple and the 95 start button form apple so hmmmm
to each there own i guess but hey i'm a avid user of the cli(command line interface) with xp comming there is now cli so my middle finger goes up to them .... and second of all they say they need to now about our computer for the actavation(sp) code .... so hmmm let me see that means microsoft monoply(sp) will increase and they now if u havest any thing bad. Well that my 2 bits..

Do your homework. Windows XP will ship with even more command line tools. Windows Server 2002 will even have the ability to run head-less (i.e. no mouse, monitor, or keyboard); You'll be able to do management via Telnet, "CLI", Terminal Services, etc. Aditionally, with MS Opertaions Manager coming out, you'll have even more control over your a MS environment.

...and Apple stole it from Xerox's PARC.

i didnt see that info my mistake opps :>) i didnt relize that

see the whole os is based on priacy so wtf dumba** :)

With that argument, All GUI OS's are based on piracy. HP-UX, Solaris, Windows, BeOS, NextStep, Linux...all of them...because they have GUI's.

Who ever thought of the CLI? That's all based on piracy too: Somebody thought of it and I seriously doubt that they're getting royalties for all the different implementations.

...so wtf dumba** :)

so u can see what i mean that there is no point in trying to stop something that well go on for ever so ....

My point is that what you are refering to is not piracy. Not even close. At best, in the case you site, one company is getting an inspiration from another. They didn't steel it. They saw it, thought it was a good idea, and did their own implementation. Un-ethical? Maybe, probably. Illegal? No.

Piracy is the same as stealing a car or shoplifting.
Piracy Un-ethical? Yes. Illegal? Yes.

Piracy is not at all the same thing as stealing a car or shoplifting. In either of those cases, the original owner no longer has it. I'm not saying piracy is right, but I don't see the point in saying it's the same thing as something with such a fundamental difference.

you can do that already in windows 2000
i do not think i will be upgrading my servrer indows XP, windows 2000 is simply "good enough". I do want to experiment with the RDP component of winxp on the pro level.

....Just like great music... the future grows by recognizing and improving from the past. Look at Jazz music. All of the great Jazz musicians acknowledge that they use and improve on what is already out there. The same can be said for most sciences and technology.

Do us all a favor and quit thinking that your drivel posted on these boards makes any difference. You are as uninformed as the rest of us. We all think we know what the f*ck is going on and what is right, when we all have to form our opinions on the facts we read from some third or fourth party.

Wake up kids and smell the silicon.

Piracy is just like going into the store and taking it right off the shelf, but w/o the police running after you, or the little magnetic strip on the box setting off the alarm when you walk out.

I'm sorry but I'm constantly amazed at the stuff people come up with. Do you think about the logic of your argument for more than 5 seconds?

MS 'stole the idea' of a GUI from Apple. I believe the word you are looking for is 'innovated' which is VERY different to 'invented' just incase you get confused with the two. MS took the idea of a gui and implemented it in their own way. What does this have to do with Apple? Absolutely nothing! Your logic is as ridiculous as someone saying that Unreal 'stole the idea' of a FPS (First Person Shooter) from Wolfenstein-3D (and that 'stole' it from some other game), therefore they committed piracy. Or Half-Life, Quake (and insert the other 100 FPS games made since). None of these stole anything. They took the idea of a FPS and innovated. Wether that was to bring other elements into the gameplay other than run-shoot-run-shoot, different forms of gameplay, different weapons, etc etc. In the end if you want to look at it very simplistically they're all the same game.

Therefore...no piracy, and if this was a case where piracy was committed...what's your view on it then? It's OK to pirate software because someone else has done it before you? Dangerous comment there...someone might use it but change 'pirate software' to 'kill', 'steal' etc etc

"we do NOT require the customer who acquires their Office XP or Windows XP licenses through one of Microsoft's volume licensing programs, such as Microsoft Open License or Microsoft Select License, to activation those product licenses."

So basically, within a few hours of Win XP hitting RTM, the cd keys that dont require activation are going to be the hottest bit of info in the world, just like the Office XP ones were.

Look through some of the more suspect newsgroups, no sign of office XP cracks, why? because you dont need them! just install with the right key and "job done"! So if the same is going to apply to Win XP as well, well then in my opinion product activation is the most pointless exercise ever!

I assume there wont be "universal keys" to personal edition of win xp, but is that really going to bother anyone? Pro edition seems to contain all that personal edition does (just Pro also contains more stuff).

what a load of pointless p00p.

Actually the PID for Volume License customers will be based on their Volume License Agreement number. That being said, MS will be looking to see if any of these keys turn up on the Web and a company could face repercusions if it can be proved that an employee intentionally leaked the keys.

well they didnt do a very good job of keeping control of the office XP keys that dont need activation. like i said, most people in the newsgroups are using them - which is why there are no signs of cracks for office xp, because no one needs one! microsoft cracked it for them!

As some of you know M$ is pushing their business customers to upgrade before October1 to Office xp they will have to buy it all full price..

Now think for a minute..

it's 2004, Office xp2 and windows xp2 are out.. you are perfectly happy with your current xp config.. you decide to do a reinstall and afterwards you goto do your activation and are greeted with a dialog box stating: "You seem to be running an unsupported version of Windows/Office. Please upgrade to continue activation".

Don't think this will happen? How sure are you? Would you bet your car on it? How bout all the data files you have that will only open with Office apps?

I still use NT4 and office 95 at work.. Why? because it works.. does what everybody in the company needs and we see no point in upgrading.

and no I am not some anti-ms lunatic, I have used ms products since windows 3.0 and word 2.0. I remember when MS was nothing looking up at the likes of Wordperfect.. but now they are going too far..

I agree. We should not be forced to upgrade whatsoever.

But MS should not be forced to support out-dated software either. If you (anyone) prefers WFW 3.11, great more power to them, but don't expect MS to support them. The breakneck speed of computer technology advancements does have an un-spoken forced upgrade path that's simply dictated by the advancements themselves. Sooner or later it's time to move on.

There are going to upgrade versions. Where did you here otherwise.

MS isn't pushing anything. They have made changes to their licensing; It now makes more sense for customers to upgrade from a financial perspective. If anything, this is a windfall for some customers. As for WPA, they have already stated that if you change your config you won't have to re-purchase. NT4 and Office 95? Great products in their own right, but you're really cheating yourself by not looking at Windows 2000, Windows XP, etc. How many people are still running WP 5.x for Dos or Netscape 2.0? Progress is the way of the industry.

Amen brother.

"But MS should not be forced to support out-dated software either. "

are you equating supporting with the ability to use something i already paid for?

"As for WPA, they have already stated that if you change your config you won't have to re-purchase. NT4 and Office 95? Great products in their own right, but you're really cheating yourself by not looking at Windows 2000, Windows XP, etc. "

I didn't say repurchase, I said re-activate. What would stop them from just shutting of the activation after they no longer felt like 'supporting' it.. maybe I am cheating myself by not upgrading, so? as a consumer isn't that my right? A right which MS seems to want to take away..

I don't know about you but I don't buy a new car every 2 years because a new model is out.. and if i don't want to upgrade every 3 years, i shouldn't be forced to, but when I do want to upgrade I shouldn't be forced to pay full price cuz I passed some MS deadline..

"What would stop them from just shutting of the activation after they no longer felt like 'supporting' it.. "

Common sense, and a strong aversion to economic suicide. Next question?

If the software is already outdated, then you SHOULD be on your own, and if you expect otherwise, well then you have absolutly no sense of business or common sense.

It's like, sure, you can use OS2, but will you get support for it, fat chance.

CPUGuy,

"If the software is already outdated, then you SHOULD be on your own, and if you expect otherwise, well then you have absolutly no sense of business or common sense. "

you don't understand my concern.. I don't mean support as in calling and asking why I can't load a certain file format or why it crashes, etc.. I mean the ability to reactivate it.. The scenario I see play out is at a future date MS will say that they don't need to activate your software because they no longer support it..

Supporting should not be the same as activating..

What the hell does software have to do with a car?? Relevance??
That's like me saying....people only ever buy 1 or 2 houses in their lifetime therefore we should only have to change Operating Systems once or twice in our lifetime! Or...fashion changes every six months, hence people buy new clothes every six months therefore we should change Operating Systems every six months! If you're going to make a point, make it relevant! MS isn't taking away any of your rights, it's ok.

chris_kabuki ,
so i should upgrade every 6 months because it is fashionable to do so? and what if this new upgrade doesn't give me anything new? what if I was happy with what I already had? upgrading (especially for corporations) is neither cheap (both time and money) nor needed in most situations.

my concern is with the activation method MS would have control over upgrades. this is only a theory at this point but it wouldn't take much to implement.. and MS could simply say, oh not our fault ur using an old OS. i certainly don't trust them and i don't understand why anybody does..

pencilneck knows what the **** he is talking about. What are the rest of you smoking?

Has Microsoft clouded all of your vision? You are willing and happy to give Microsoft control over your operating system and office software?

Well, assume we all upgrade to Windows XP and Office XP. Now, let's take Microsoft to some extremes. Say they start releasing upgrades twice a year. Say they decide to stop ACTIVATING software when an upgrade is availble. You will be forced to purchase upgrades every six months regardless of what you want to do, even though you own the software. What if they decide to release upgrades ever three months, or even every month? What is going to stop them? Or how about even worse? Microsoft gets split into six divisions. Say the office division goes bankrupt and there activation servers go offline. I guess you can't reinstall your office software anymore. Anyone pay any attention to DSL companies going bankrupt overnight and turning off DSL networks in a heartbeat?

The only thing that can stop Microsoft from implementing this Windows activation scheme is consumer resistance. If consumers support it, we are all saying that we don't care if Microsoft can take more money from our checkbooks than the IRS.

"SIIA estimates that casual copying accounts for a staggering 50 percent of the economic losses due to piracy. It is this form of piracy, casual copying, that we are primarily looking to reduce with product activation."

Bean counters are at work. They have MS wetting them selves over this increadable information. Wow we can boost our bottom line by just getting those poor slobs to cough up an extra 400 on those 2 of 3 machines they have at home! Will they accomplish anything. NO, Those horrid casual copyers probaly cant afford the first copy they bought, much less paying for more copy's.

They will just use what they have or look for a cheaper alternative.
I believe MS will realize very little in terms of extra income from a move like this. What i believe will happen, people will seek alternatives and alienate MS. Necessity will dictate action, meaning learning something new and saluting MS with a farewell. You simply cant get money from a source that doesnt have any to spare.

You have a good point. It may very well be true.

But that doesn't mean MS shouldn't try to protect their investment/products to the best of their ability.

Yeah, MS, go for it. I just installed Linux yesterday for the first time in about 6 or 7 years (meaning I hadn't used it during that period). I'm impressed to say the least. It has come quite a long ways. Kudos to the Linux developers! And MS, well, you figure it out...

That is quite possibly the wisest thing I have read in this whole stupid MS activation matter. This is not just a good point, it is the undeniable truth.

I even "may" purchase one copy (haven't decided if I am ready to upgrade yet, I am happy with 2000), but I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a copy for every computer in my house (I have 5).

I have a Linux server running now, and may even keep one windows box around just for heck of it, but I'm not even sure about that.

I will seriously be looking for an alternative. MS may be shooting itself in the foot or maybe not, all I know for sure is, they will NOT sell 5 copies to me!

I agree with you completely. You shouldn't have to by 5 copies!

If a home users or a smaller business has say, 5 or 6 computers, then I believe, there is no reason why they should not be able to buy just one copy of software they want and load it onto all their machines.

Larger organisations with many pcs are a different matter. The benefit they get from having, say Office XP, on all their machines will be worth far more than the price of one copy. It is only fair that the software developer gets there fair share of the monetary value of that benefit.

As I said in my reply to another thread, I am convinced that the real key to cutting software piracy is for companies like Microsoft to adopt much more realistic pricing strucures and as part of that adopt a much more realistic interpretation of customer needs.

I agree with you completely. You shouldn't have to by 5 copies!

If a home users or a smaller business has say, 5 or 6 computers, then I believe, there is no reason why they should not be able to buy just one copy of software they want and load it onto all their machines.

Larger organisations with many pcs are a different matter. The benefit they get from having, say Office XP, on all their machines will be worth far more than the price of one copy. It is only fair that the software developer gets there fair share of the monetary value of that benefit.

As I said in my reply to another thread, I am convinced that the real key to cutting software piracy is for companies like Microsoft to adopt much more realistic pricing strucures and as part of that adopt a much more realistic interpretation of customer needs.

Ahhhh, so ignoring the license for the software you're installing is fine...because after all, once you've purchased some software you can do whatever the hell you want to do with it. Wrong! What most people don't realise is that you're not paying for the software, you'er paying for the license. Therefore, if you purchase 1 license for WinXP, all you can do is whatever it says in that 1 license.

And why should home/small businesses be allowed to break the license by installing WinXP on 5 or 6 computers but medium/large businesses have to buy a license per machine? Let me guess...because they can afford it? Good argument...not! You have to have the same rules for everyone. And where did you come up with this limit of 5 or 6 computers? What if my small business has 7 computer? Do I then need to buy 7 licenses? or can i still use the 1 license for all 7? In which case where is boundary?

Well, let's see, the upgrade to WinMe was $50, the updates to Win98 SE (if you had Win98) was $20... I hardly call that overpriced.

Oh yeah, btw, using WindowsNT on an x86 based computer is about 1/3 the cost of using other companies like Sun or SGI.

The differance between home and business.

1: Business makes money by using software and can afford to pay the price, since they actually profit by its use. MOST HOME USER DO NOT MAKE ANY PROFIT WHATSOEVER. MAKING IT VERY HARD TO JUSTIFY BUYING MULTIPLE COPY'S SINCE THIERS NO RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT.

2: Business gets large pricing breaks, because they buy in volume. on averge they pay far less per copy than a home user. SO WHERE'S A PRICE BREAK ON MULTIPLE COPY'S FOR THE HOME? THE PLACE WHERE NO PROFITS ARE GAINED FROM ITS USAGE WHATSOEVER.

3: What I believe would be fair. Home versions should come with a 3-5 user licence. Since thier pricing for thier home version's are very expensive, comparing the price that business's pay. This would solve a lot F>U>D that MS is facing in the home market and might restore some customer loyalty.

4: People do not care about MS bottom line any more than MS cares about its home users. Its all about greed and profit. MS better start caring about the home users, because thier the ones that that keep those companys running and make decisions on what platform they run.

Lets say I'm a IT manager and have to install 10 extra servers at work. Lets assume its a MS shop. At home I have 5 computers and installed Linux, because I refuse to pay MS those high prices and
have gotten comfortable and understand Linux. I decide to take a chance and install 10 linux servers at work. 6 months down the road the linux servers are doing fine and the company is very happy that those Linux servers are stable and they have saved a lot of cash not paying MS licensing fee's for those servers.
Why did this happen? What happens at home does reflect what happens at work. Take heed MS the world as a whole doesnt care about you either.

Uh, they have 3 or 4 computers and can only afford one copy of the OS??? What's wrong with this statement? DOH!

People are giving their Windows installation disks to their neighbors right now, illegaly! If each copy had a 5 user license, it would simply make the neighbors copy legal. Sheesh!

everything he says is true and i'm just upset more people don't come to the same realization. we are customers and we can demand whatever we like, wether a company listens to us or not is their decision. if you don't like it, don't use it. oh windows crashes so often, blah blah blah. use linux or beos or another os that you feel more comfortable with. i just bought myst 3, but it doesn't run properly on my pc. it has many problems in it's main executable according to presto. and i'll have to wait awhile till it's out. what am i going to do? nothing. move on and deal with it. you don't like the activation, well no one is forcing you to upgrade.

Is it only me or has anyone else thought about the people who ARENT connected to the internet? How do they then activate their copies of Windows and Office? Im an Office XP beta tester and the other way is to phone up and activate but will this mean all those not net connected also have to do the same? Will the phone number be free? The call will last a fair bit because of having to give details of the reg code on screen and THEN type in the reg code they give you - and you can bet the phone lines will only be open 9-5 week days so all those at work are stuffed!!!

More paranoia. If you want the software you have to go through MS to activate. Period. If you're not connected get on the phone. Just don't whine about it!

Right - you call an 800 number, read off a code, get a code back. Takes all of 2 minutes. They don't want your name, location, etc... they just want the code. In fact, it could be completely automated if done right, only having to speak to a person if something goes wrong.

You may be a beta tester, but you have no knowledge about this subject. Do a little research first.

Overview on the new "Product Activation" policy and mechanism:
http://www.microsoft.com...eb01/02-02ProdActPR.asp

http://www.microsoft.com...01/Feb01/ProdActFAQ.asp
http://www.microsoft.com...001/Feb01/ProdActFS.asp

It's early and ive been up a while but in the article he says that it doesn't really send specific information about your computer and it cannot be reverse coded to see what's inside so whats the big deal? you download spyware all the time(gozilla). When it goes to RTM i'll download it and go through it again I was very impressed with 2465 and if i still find it stable and VERY fast i'll buy it and activate it I have nothing to hide.

hey, how about us "highly advanced" computer users? some of us reinstall windows because it has been running for long and the registry is filled with crap, and the windows/system kat i filled woth other crap that comes from bad proggs that can't be properly uninstalled. and just recently, I had a Motheboard failure, and had to buy a new one. I bought a new HD shortly before that, wich was the prime reason for me to reinstall windows, (It can't be copied to a new drive, and who the heck would want to?) so, get your time on making a good product, this has been seen before, Black & White the game for example, the Pirated, cracked and hacked version, is 100% stable, but the original version is extremely UNstable, because of extreme anti piracy work, but the thing is, they hacked the game anyway! not even the ultra secure DVD encoding was left unhacked for long, and now most DVD players are region free, and thus makes it impossible to have monopoly on what is being seen in each country.
in other words, Freedom To The People! freedom to choose as they wish, among thousands of movies, instead of 50 hollywood movies that that countrys movie distributors thought would make them money.
If i could afford all this ridiculously expensive software, I'd buy it
who can afford buying Windows when it has the same price as a good quality bicycle, for example? let people choose wheter they want to buy it, MS will lose customers to Linux and similar free software.
it is low income persons who use the internet the most, remember that.
thank you. /Beo

Yeah, there is a lot of FUD out there regarding how many times you can re-install/activate, if there is a "transfer" process, how much of the hardware needs to change before it has to be reactivated, etc... and you'll note, Nieman did not answer the question - he just said, "we've been doing a lot of testing."

So... it's still unclear. BUT, he did say: "ensuring that the licensed user is never denied the right to use the product" - which says to me that no matter what, if you own the license you'll be able to do whatever you want. It just might involve a phone call to MS to request a reactivate code or something.

"had to buy a new one. I bought a new HD shortly before that, wich was the prime reason for me to reinstall windows, (It can't be copied to a new drive, and who the heck would want to?) so, get your time on making a good product, this "

just to clear up a tech misconception here
not only can you swap C drives with windows, you can transfer windows without any fancy tools, ive done it, about 1239213 times, all using Explorer.

Maybe with Windows 9x, but you can't do that with NT.

But have you tried it with Windows 2000 on your system? At work we clone on hard drive to another on systems that are fully registered and legal with Win2k and left the original inside the PC but on channel 2 as primary and when Windows 2000 booted its used BOTH hard drives system files not just the files on C:

To clarify: I mean you can't copy the whole drive using Explorer. Many Windows files, including the registry, are locked and can't be copied while Windows is running.

"had to buy a new one. I bought a new HD shortly before that, wich was the prime reason for me to reinstall windows, (It can't be copied to a new drive, and who the heck would want to?) so, get your time on making a good product, this "

Did you get a new Maxtor drive? Or WD? The floppy usually has "EZ-BIOS" on it, which has a partition/drive mirror program. Haven't tried it with NTFS systems yet, but works great on Win9x based. Norton Ghost may do great for you (comes with many new motherboards)

James

So software should be free? Is it as valuable to you as a bicycle? My point is, it's all relative. I make my living via software so I find the ducats to purchase a copy of Windows. If a bike is a better fit for you go for it. I've installed Whistler a bunch of times on the same PC with that same PID. I've even changed my config and installed to see what would happen - no problems. And yes, I am an ADVANCED user.

You can make a simple dos boot disk and copy a program called Dolly on it. Its available from download.com. Boot up with the disk and run dolly then you can clone ANY hd no matter what os is on it, or what filesystem it uses. The program is really good if you want to upgrade your main dirve to a larger drive. It will copy it all to the new drive into a partition the size of your previous drive. Then just resize the partition to make full use of the space on the new HD.

People are free, but not free to STEAL! Do you really believe that I should have the "freedom" to come into your house and take something just because I want or need it? Wake up.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/19021.html
A very interesting article about some cracks, and how it seems that microsoft might have won this round.

Firstly, what about the small percentage of people who don't have internet access. Can they not use Windows XP?

Secondly, it seems that *certain* serial numbers (such as those used during volume licensing) will not require activiation?

Is this correct?

If you don't have Internet access you'll be able to make a phone call, read off a number and get a product activation key read back to you. (or similar)

And yes - any volume license program will not require individual activation.

Microsoft provides a toll free 800 number to activiate the OS for those without internet access or for those who prefer not to use the internet to activate their product. I am one of the academic Office 2000 guinea pigs and I have to say this product activation os no problem.

To the guy above who seems to find it necessary to reinstall Windows frequently, Office 2000 installs and reactivates quite nicely. I only had one problem when I broke with the EULA. A quick call to Microsof tcleared up the problem, the support staff reset all my registration info and I was able to install Office 2000 on a second machine in accordance with the EULA. (I had previously installed and then removed Office 2000 from a second desktop. The registration stuck and I was unable to install Office on a new laptop I had acquired.)

Don't pay for this technology and it will go away!
Maybe this is the breaking point to head to linux?

LOL! Yeah, Linux...that's the ticket for the end users....NOT

yeah...linux..

my grandma LOVES linux .. ha

With all due respect, I am not a guru or advanced user, in fact I never used DOS. but as I type this out I am using SUSE linux. One would state that if you buy the right distribution and can install a videogame that it is quite possible to run/use/enjoy linux. Frankly I preferr it to both win 2000 and win ME for two reasons - linux is fast and stable, (more so than ME or 2000) on my box, and second - I find it easyer to use/admin. For the first time I am able to run a good firewall - simply by reading the instructions that came with the OS.
well I am going to shut up now
bye

Yes, but the ONE thing everyone seems to have overlooked....
Until recently, there were NO viruses for Linux...NONE.
Now, Windows on the other hand..... Enough to populate a small city,
and then some. And, geee, I never hear of too many SECURITY PATCHES for Linux. Again, Windows.... A literal SNOWSTORM EVERY WEEK.
And, yes, Linux is FAR more stable than MS products could ever hope to be. I have heard of Linux based Servers up for at least 3+ years with NO problems, and from people in the know... Windows based servers needing rebooted SEVERAL TIMES A MONTH.

Besides, I agree Mico$oft charges WAY too much for their OS's. PERIOD.

"And, geee, I never hear of too many SECURITY PATCHES for Linux. Again, Windows.... A literal SNOWSTORM EVERY WEEK."

Are you walking around with your eyes closed or just blinkers? There aren't many security patches? There's new security patches for linux every single week. That's not to say Windows has any less/more issues with security, but don't be so damn blind about it.

Oh and Windows Servers do no have to be rebooted several times a month unless they were set up by you I assume. Windows 2000 servers have been running very well. Once again, don't be so blind about everything to do with MS.

No-one is saying you shouldn't love Linux and use it for everything, but just because you love Linux doesn't instantly mean that you have to hate Windows and start spreading s*** about it every chance you get. Furthermore I highly doubt any of the users here are running servers that need to be up for 3 years. I'd guess that the majority run pc's at home for work/games/whatever and don't need their computer to be left on for 3 years without a reboot. A lot of people in fact turn their computers off each day because they have no use for them to be on all the time and they really don't mind waiting 30 seconds for it to boot up when they need to use it.

Its funny to see you ripping on Linux advocates meanwhile you are supporting Microsoft like an advocate of Microsoft.

Linux has been quite stable for quite some time. Windows 2000 is finally stable. NT was relatively stable, but the majority of our NT servers need to be rebooted on a regular basis. On a sidenote, we had a DEC Alpha running NT 4 that was stable for well over a year without rebooting (Notice the non-Intel x86 infrastructure).

Don't walk around calling others blind while acting blind yourself.

Oh you're just rich you are!
You start on me...yet you don't mention anything about what 'DragonRider' said? Why aren't I suprised! Like everyone else you're in the 'it's cool to hate Microsoft' crowd.

We're not talking about NT 4, we're comparing what's out now. No-one is saying linux isn't stable (or hasn't always been stable). When did I say it wasn't stable??? In fact...I made no comment about it! And not even NT4 has to be rebooted several times each month. How about you read what I write for a change rather than trying to flame. Oh yes, you're so right I MUST be an advocate of Microsoft because I won't accept bulls*** from people like:
"And, geee, I never hear of too many SECURITY PATCHES for Linux. Again, Windows.... A literal SNOWSTORM EVERY WEEK."

Did you hear me refute any claims about security patches? I left the statements about security patches alone because you both hit it on the head. They both have a lot of security patches, and anyone who sits on one side or the other calling the other OS insecure is a hypocrite.

These message boards tend to be read by people in the extremes. Either advocates of Microsoft or Linux or piracy or hacking or newbies. Because of this many people tend to know a lot about one of these topics and little of others. They threfore make comments about how great one is compared to the other but don't have any idea what the other really is. Then they read these short tidbits like this:

"Oh and Windows Servers do no have to be rebooted several times a month unless they were set up by you I assume. Windows 2000 servers have been running very well. Once again, don't be so blind about everything to do with MS."

and they infer that Windows Servers probably includes NT servers since 2000 was an upgrade of NT. I don't like arguments that skate the truth, or overlook an obvious truth simply because it flaws their argument. State all the facts and form arguments based on the facts.

My stetement doesn't make your previous statement flawed, it simply clarifies the truth. The evasion of admitting that Microsoft NT was an average server makes your comment sound pro-Microsoft thus my comments about being an advocate.

Ok, thank you for explaining the comments you have made and I apologise for being fairly broad in my comment regarding "Windows Servers". I did actually mean Win 2000 servers, but it is unrealistic for others to read my mind. I should have been more clearer as I know from far too much experience what a pain in the a** WinNT is (especially WinNT and Exchange Server on the same machine!). So I would have never made any great positive comments regarding WinNT. So just to clarify I'm not a Microsoft advocate....just like to give a more realistic outlook on things rather that have a "ms is evil, everything should be open-source because it's holy" attitude....even if I do that in a broad way at times.

I know piracy is a problem, but I also think the software companies grossly overestimate their lost income. If Fred, who is a graphics designer, lets me install his copy of Photoshop, has Adobe lost $600 in income? No, because there is no way in hell I would have ever bought Photoshop for myself. I would have been happy with a freeware utility. Did we violate the EULA? Definitely. Did Adobe actually lose any money? Nope.

Now warez sites may be a different story. If 1000's of people download a pirated copy of Photoshop, Adobe probably lost a few sales in there. But 99% of those people will probaly try it out, realize it's pretty difficult to use, and get rid of it.

exactly! a company can not lose money from something you wouldn't have bought/paid for anyway.

Does MS lose money if you decide to use Linux.macos/aix/etc. ? Yes because you bought a competing product. Are you a pirate? NO! for the anti-piracy crowd: Do you guys even know how piracy is calculated? Probably not. The number of pc's sold in a year are calculated and percentages are taken for the likeliness of a certain type of software to be on a system. ie. 100% for an OS, 85% for an office suite, 20% for a CAD system.

And since they can't go and check everyones computer they estiamte things like oh there were 100k pcs shipped last year but only 50k copied of office were sold. a difference of 35k. So that 35k must have been pirated.. wrong.. it's not hard to guess what happens when you use linux and opensource programs for everything.. yup, your a 100% pirate because you didn't pay for anything.. and that's how they figure out that billions in software sales were lost in 99 or 2000, etc..

Thank you. At least someone is hitting the point on this one! For as much of this fourth kind of 'piracy' goes on, the software companies lose absolutely NOTHING. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that they have a lot to gain. There are a lot of people out there that just want to check out the software to see what it does. Grab Adobe Premiere, see what video editing on a computer is like, and then set it to the way side after a few short hours. In the mean time, they get a huge span of people that use it. Yeah, timeouts on software exist for this kind of purpose, but what about the person that downloads things, checks them out for 10 minutes the first day, gets caught up in life and finds that the thing has timed out. Are they abusing the method. Hardly. And if the product does what they want, then surely if they are to use it for an extended period of time, they will purchase it. But if it is for casual use, then why is a person going to drop a couple hundred dollars on a piece of software used once or twice for no specific purpose beyond intellectual pleasure? I know for all the money I make, that for the once or twice a year that I might want to use Premiere for 10 or 20 minutes, I'm not going to drop $1000. This includes the family member who installs MS Office on a home computer to be able to write 2 or 3 letters a year. Them paying $500+ for that ability? That's an absurd concept! Yet being able to use MS Word for that purpose and in that manner hurts no one, as that person would have just not bought MS Office to begin with.

So if you don't own a car because you only need to drive 10 days out of the year, it's ok to borrow one (without their permission) from the showroom because you wouldn't have purchased it anyway.

O.K. I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up.

I think you're grossly under-estimating the problem. Sure, most coporations are compliant. They have to be or they could get audited. But stop and think of other populations of users. Take college students. Tradiutionally low on cash but trying to get the skills they need to succedd in the world. Do you think Joe College thinks twice about borrowing that Office 2000 CD from their roomate. Can we say Napster? That's just the tip of the iceberg ...

"So if you don't own a car because you only need to drive 10 days out of the year, it's ok to borrow one (without their permission) from the showroom because you wouldn't have purchased it anyway. "

oh geez, this tired a** argument again.. it is not the same thing and you know it.. by borrowing a car you would not have bought you do not cause chrysler or whoever to lose money. ever hear or used cars? you have? then hell aren't u stealing from honda becasue you didn't pay full price for the accord?

let's say I pirate 3d studio. discreet does not lose 4000. why? I wouldn't have bought it to begin with.. I use it just to learn and don't do anything for profit.. but by your reasoning discreet is out 4 grand? this is absurd..

the simple fact is a supplier of a good cannot 'lose' money if you were not going to buy that supplier's goods to begin with.. if you buy a competitor product it is the same as pirating theirs or not having anything at all..

How do you know the figures don't already take that into account?

And somehow you know more than proven statistical methods? If you could quote the exact process used to determine these numbers, you might have a point. Otherwise, FUD.

Very good point. I am convinced that the revenue losses attributed to priacy are very grossly overstated. In fact I have a programming book here that stes that the main reason all those anti priracy systems (code wheels etc) used mainly in games, were abandoned because the majority of uses of prirated copies wouldn't have bought the software if they couldn't have got a freebie, so little revenue was being lost. All these things do is prvide an unnessecary inconvenience people who have paid for it. If Microsoft and other software companies really weant to reduce piracy, then I believe the solution is to also scrap their outrageous pricing systems.

Chrissmarts, orion, and his boys..

"And somehow you know more than proven statistical methods? If you could quote the exact process used to determine these numbers, you might have a point. Otherwise, FUD. "

go on over to:
http://www.bsa.org/usa/g...acy/piracystats99.phtml

read section E:
E . BSA/SIIA Piracy Study Methodology

It will clearly show how piracy is calculated..

for the lazy here is the summary:

Piracy Estimates

The difference between software applications installed (demand) and software applications legally shipped (supply) equals the estimate of software applications pirated. These were calculated by country for 1999. The piracy rate was defined as the amount of software pirated as a percent of total software installed in each country.

By using the average price information from the collected data, the legal and pirated software revenue was calculated. This is a wholesale price estimate weighted by the amount of shipments within each software application category. Rest of Region Countries

To develop the additional countries beyond the major countries, the "rest of region" data was used. The methodology for the piracy study provides total world shipments with country information for the major countries, and aggregated information for smaller countries. For these additional countries, a PC shipment estimate was acquired, either through a consensus of member company internal data or from published sources. This data was used to split apart the "rest of region" total for the countries within the region.

Wherever possible, separate software shipment data was used to split the software shipments within the "rest of region" countries and resulted in piracy estimates that varied by country within the region. Where this data was lacking, the additional countries have the same piracy rate as the region.

here is the important part:
The difference between software applications installed (demand) and software applications legally shipped (supply) equals the estimate of software applications pirated.

So all you linux/open source fiends are actually pirates.. how bout that..

It's also possible that a small percentage of the people who pirate software such as 3D Max or Photoshop could become good enough with those tools to get hired using those tools and end up buying the next 5 versions of said software. Or maybe somone pirates a game and ends up being part of a mod team that becomes very popular and ends up making that game sell many more copies?

This probably isn't the norm and doesn't mean that such situations are capable for all types of software. But i think this also shows that priacy doesn't always mean the creator of the software gets screwed out of the money that they DO deserve.

Someone in college might borrow their roommate's copy of Office to install on their machine, but you said it yourself. They don't have much money, so why would they go out and buy a copy of Office when they could either use their roommate's computer or use one supplied by the school. I don't belive that college student account for that much lost revenue.

Do you think the companies are going to look for the most accurate fair number, or the most outrageously huge number they can generate to justify the activation process?

Saying they are inconveniencing thousands of users because they lost a couple hundred thousand bucks doesn't make sense. But to do it because they lost $300M, well, that's worth it.

So which number do you think they are going to use?

I suppose the ftp sites run by the Linux companies themselves are also illegal.
Gee, who woulda thought he iso ftp's ftp.redhat.com or ftp.linux-mandrake.com was promoting piracy.

u`re stupid... "PC shipments for the major countries were estimated from proprietary and confidential data supplied by BSA and SIIA member companies." None of the real Open/Source companies aren`t members of SIIA. None of them will say that the copies atound the world are piracy. U should read the GPL license. Oh, sorry, yer a Windows user, ya dunno what`s that.

Rollie-
"U should read the GPL license. Oh, sorry, yer a Windows user, ya dunno what`s that. "

I don't know who you addressed this to but I will reply nonetheless.. In case you couldn't tell we were being sarcastic in labeling gnu/linux and gpl software as pirate-ware..

and if you had actually read my previous messages, you would realize that I am not a M$ follower..

sheesh

Following this logic, does this mean that I can sneak into a concert since the space I will be occupying wasn't going to be used anyway? How about if I go to a restaurant and order a good meal and then leave without paying for it, since I know that the restaurant always has food left over at the end of the day that they will be throwing away?

Further, what if I quit paying my fair share of income taxes? I figure the government has plenty of money and they probably won't miss my small amount?

It does not matter what is done with the software after it is stolen, the point is that it IS stolen. If I steal something and then throw it away, does this mean that I am not guilty of stealing it?

The point is not how much money Microsoft makes or what the price of the software is, the point is that using something that you obtained illegaly is stealing. Microsoft charges what the market will bear, as long as the product is bought the price will not come down. Lowering the price would be foolish.

It does not matter how you try to justify it, it is still a criminal act and nothing can change this.

The people to blame for product activation is not Microsoft, it is the idiots here who distribute warez, violate the user license agreements and those that support these people.

As long as you have the attitude that "Well it's just one copy that I am giving away" then this scenario will never end. Do you really think that it is OK for you to do this and not the other 20 million people.

JoeV,

ok then please explain how MS or whoever loses money on something the end-user wouldn't have bought/couldn't afford to begin with..

I'm not advocating out right piracy and believe you should buy something if you find it useful.

I'm just dying to find out how "billions" are lost to piracy.. especially since the methods for calculating piracy are quite flawed becasue their exists no way to fully audit every computer user, and until there is one the figures will always be inflated in favor of the software companies..

They're not 'losing' billions, they're 'losing the POTENTIAL' to earn billions. That's where all those figures don't really tell the full story because as you say, the figures are totally flawed and may as well be worked out by asking a child to think of a number between 1 and 10 and multiplying it by 100 billion (or whatever the current 'estimates' are).

However JoeV has made a very good argument, everyone always tried to make a case for why is it ok for them to steal software. The point is, there is no case for it. Morally, Ethically and Criminally is it wrong and nothing will change that. Now I personally don't believe in the overblown piracy figures as I realise that someone who can't afford Photoshop (for example) will never buy Photoshop (however anyone involved with warez that needs some form of graphics program will automatically download Photoshop because 'it's the best'). And I'm not one to start telling people off for doing things which I myself have done, but at the end of the day, nothing has changed, it still is and always was 'Morally, Ethically and Criminally wrong'.

"In other words, to allow activity that most people would agree is infringing--"

They know the activation scheme is an infringement of privacy. Now I will be curious to see if the people that read that whole paragraph will be as angry as I am about the whole damn deal.

Do you mind showing your ID to buy beer? Do you mind showing your ID to get your telephone activate? Do you mind showing your ID to buy a car? Do you mind showing your ID to apply for a mortgage? Do you mind showing your ID to vote? With nothing ELSE in this world being "private", why should you have anonymity on the internet? Do you actually think it's your God-given or Constitution-given right?

"Do you mind showing your ID to buy beer?
Do you mind showing your ID to get your telephone activate?
Do you mind showing your ID to buy a car?
Do you mind showing your ID to apply for a mortgage?"

Yes I do... I would go crazy if I would have to do that ...

I would be very happy to show my ID to buy beer...but alas, they never ask anymore :(

I mind showing my ID when I'm buying drugs.

Which is exactly like this is. Drugs are illegal. People do them. And I'm sure if a drug dealer ever asked someone to see their license, they'd be like "wtf for, no." The only people who are upset about this are the juarez kiddies. And, I don't think they should really be worried at all. In that interview, MS states that the cracks currently released do not work. I'm sorry, but some crackers I know are some of the smartest coders around. *and* even if they don't work, even if the cracks don't do anything at all. It doesn't look as if MS really cares. This is just to discourage warez'ing. I highly doubt MS is going to start prosecuting people for using WinXP. This is just a scare tactic for 13 year olds with cable modems. If MS really had intentions to inforce it's EULA, then we would have already heard about 1,000,000 new court cases. Go to #WindowsXp /#WinXP on efnet, you can sit and watch, i'd say a minimum, of 100 new people a day download and install WinXP. And if the cracks don't work, as MS says, then they know about every single one. But they sure don't seem to be doing anything about it. Just as they wont after it's released. So to sum this up.. the only people who should be worried at all, are warez kids. And they too, shouldn't be worried. MS isn't really going to prosecute everyone who downloads XP for free. Sure, they might try to prosecute people dishing it out to hundreds of people a day, but i highly doubt they'll prosecute Joe Blow for downloading and running it. And even if they do, Joe Blow is a 15 year old with a cable modem, his momy and daddy may get fined $1,000, ground him for a week, and he'll be back on his warez'ing way.

You're mis-reading it. He said:
"to allow activity that most people would agree is infringing" *on the license agreement* - He's saying their process is errs on the side of the user. It will allow the user to do things that infringe the EULA but that's okay because they want to err on the side of the honest customer. Infringe the EULA, not privacy.

Well said Deleted. Good point.

I don't mind showing my ID to buy a case of beer, but I would mind if I had to show it before I opened every can in the case.

You have to have ID to buy beer?

They spent millions in R&D to devolop XP. They have every right to protect their software...and by any means they like. Why? Because IT BELONGS TO THEM!

"But Orion" you say: "Blah Blah Blah PRIVACY THIS!... Blah Blah Bah CONSUMER RIGHTS THAT!..." Bull s***! Go hug a tree or something. The internet would be a much better place if people couldn't be anonymous.

Yeah you are right the poor guys...I pity them...they spent millions and millions to develop the xp and now all of us what we want a good product,you are right we ask to much.No dude the world isn't going forward this way and internet wouldn't have excisted if we weren't anonymous...so grow up and look forward.

I actually have end loosers at work that complain that they can't be anonymous when they surf. They complain that content is censored. If they don't like it they can find another job. Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on that? If you don't like MS's policy/practices, don't buy their stuff.

I have grown up. I have a clue after my 35 years on this planet. This looks to be a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The original goal of the internet had absolutely nothing to do with anonymity. It looks like you need to bone-up a little on your history.

It's one thing you miss here and it's more or less the most important that comment are made for improvement...However people like you don't seem to understand this..and only for the record I just 16 what does this means..

You are once again right once again I will rephraze it would have excested but noone would have known it nowdays...And once again you miss the point that most of investion from their creason and on change goals the evoloution you know and you are stuck man refresh your believe cuz they remind me of midle ages.However ulike you I respect them...

ionos wrote: "...it's more or less the most important that comment are made for improvement.."

If I'm understanding your statement (please correct me if I'm wrong), you state that the comments section is for improving things. What I don't understand is improving what?

I don't run this site so the admins should correct me if I'm out of place but: a comments sections is for...comments. Some might consider that opinions are appropriate as well. You don't have to like the comments/opinions of others, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be here. Unless, of course, the admins don't think it's appropriate.

I don't like your opinion. That doesn't mean I think you're a looser or any less of a person than I am. It's just that we have different opinions.

BTW, I simply stated my age. I didn't say anything about yours. My comment was about your "grow up" command. Well, I feel I'm "grown up", and I didn't feel that your comment was from a "grown up" perspective so that's why I wrote what I did about the pot calling the kettle black. Got it? :)

...no comment...

"The internet would be a much better place if people couldn't be anonymous"

Are you nuts? The internet has already turned into a huge advertising playground. Imagine if we were automatically quickly identified (Name, address, etc) such as you propose. We can do our best not to be manipulated by corporations, but once we lose any fraction of privacy we have left, we're more of a slave than we already are.

"Why? Because IT BELONGS TO THEM!"

Are you serious?

When is the last time you bought a car, changed the tires, oil, fixed a fender, replaced a windshield or had it repaired after an accident and had to REACTIVATE IT! HUH?

Well, I disagree with this whole "It belongs to them thing". When I buy something, I want to own it, it mine, I paid for it, and I will do with what I want. If I can't do that, then I don't want to play, hello Linux, FreeBSD or whatever I find thatI can call my own. Period.

"The internet would be a much better place if people couldn't be anonymous."

This is a very intellegent statment from someone going by the name "Orion". That sounds pretty "anonymous" to me.

Every user of the Internet has the "option" of being anonymous most of the time. Most people "choose" to be anonymous, sometimes for very good reasons.

Requiring people to use their real names wouldn't make the Internet a better place. It would be a better place if people wouldn't "hide" behind the anonymity that it allows.

"It would be a better place if people wouldn't "hide" behind the anonymity that it allows."

Exactly. Sorry I didn't relate that point correctly previously.

The less secure a product is the simplier is it for the customer, though it's also much easier to Crack it.
The more secure a product is the harder it will be for the customer, though it's harder to make a crack for it it will once be one for it. It's always a way in to a product since it must be used for activation.

It doesn't matter how secure is it will be cracked but the point is that you are right in the first half of your arguments.

Hrm... I'm not sure about that first part. The end user experience is the same - send hash number, receive activation key. Whether they use 5 digitally signed files or 90 and whether it's tied to install, login, boot, or whatever, the more complicated the protection scheme gets, the end user still has the same experience: send hash number, receive activation key.

First of all I realished that microsoft unlike what they ought to do make simple pc users lives harder....it looks that it strikes the sharing software between friends and not the massive sharing files on the internet or by big illegal foundation only because it is easier to do that cuz a simple computer user is hard to make a so called crack of some kind..I surely agree that a big amount of money is lost by the simple users but is this the right way to struck piracy by making product and spending hundreds of hours by designing it to be "anti piracy".Cuz I believe that ms soft is not as advanced as it could be and this is cleary shown in improvements of xp.So I believe that ms should spent more time by designing a better product for their custoumers and not try make just money.Concluding I am highly unhappy to realise that micro$oft believe that by strucking the simple users and not the real sourse of software piracy would have done a "hell of a great jod" because just their sells would rise.

i agree. all authorities and audio and software companies are aiming for the common man! why?? because it's easier to catch them, and it's easier to scare people by saying that they caught someone selling burned cds or downloading mp3s, a guy that could live right next door. they don't really bother with the big cats. the ones that mass produce pirated cds and distributes them to street vendors and small shops to sell. what do authorities and audio/software companies do about big time piracy??? they leave it to the country's government to solve for themselves. and if piracy isn't reduced significantly, the country is sanctioned for not being able to reduce piracy. sheesh. sucks doesn't it that our tax money is being spent to help companies not to lose more money. i think that the companies should help by giving funds to the government for use in anti-piracy plans.

Again, check your facts. See http://www.microsoft.com/piracy. MS has sponsored raids in CA and AZ going after the big guys. Mr. Nieman alluded to this:

"Software piracy comes in many different forms; some more widely known than others. Each type of piracy is unique, and often requires unique protection methods."

I read this as saying this is just the beginning.

Isn't this another way of "activating" XP products?

The subscription model has been put on hold. The response tothe idea of paying agian monthly or quarterly etc for Office was not recieved well. Personally I like the idea of a subscription model for less frequently useed applications. If I only use program X once a year I would then only activate it for the month I would use it saving me $ But for Programs used daily I see this model as a way for OEMs to sell PC's loadded with everything but the kitchen sink but only "Activated" for a month or two so they can sell the machines to unsuspecting customers and pocket higher revenues.

P.S. Running liscensced (Read purchased/registered) Linux for small bussiness web server and windows 98 clients as the MS equivalents are not neccissarly better and much more expenseve thant what our new bussiness can justify.

This is true, unless the subscription is very inexpensive and you get updates to all the apps regularly (see www.objectdesktop.com).

Go Wave!

"AN: We understand that large enterprises, and even small businesses, have unique deployment needs and that activation could be make their deployment difficult. For that reason, we do NOT require the customer who acquires their Office XP or Windows XP licenses through one of Microsoft's volume licensing programs, such as Microsoft Open License or Microsoft Select License, to activation those product licenses. It's important to note that Microsoft offers a volume licensing solution for even the smallest customer. A customer can buy into the Microsoft Open License program by making an initial purchase of just five licenses (e.g. three Office XP licenses and two Windows XP licenses)."

MHHHH M$ is getting dumber, thats how the officeXP waz warezed, the OEM key waz used on the warez and not even need for a crack here is a quote from the warez nfo:

"º°± A Big thanks goes out to *** for their help and allowing us to utilize ºÛº
º°± their CD key to bypass the whole activation deal. We may have a few ºÛº
º°± extra keys as well posted soon, in case you want another. Once again, ºÛº
º°± thanks to our friends at ***. ºÛº
"

As u can see M$ is giving users a headache and not even a chalange to the piratez, so GOOD JOB M$ heheheheheh.

i have mac0Sx on my commodor 64 and it owns! its not slow and graphical like linux with stupid internet explored or text based with ansi color muds like windows that uses perl n s***. I heard windows Cement was comming out soon and i think i might get that/.1 but also im a hacker so ill hack u with my c:\format c:\ hack in windowsnt cause windowsnt has great dos support which means directary of service attack on the mainframe OS. Some of you n00bies maybenot know what im talking bout cause ur n00bs and OJ can hack more then u hahahah hack hack hack on Nicole ouch! so if you want linux with the dumb mp3 program like napingater that downloads mp3s from that windows server or something witht he beta testering. then get that, ummmm mac0sx rules because it has great cd-rw support which i use to burn illegal copies of WormS Amegeddon and burn illegal coppies of "Linux ME" which i distribute at a local warehouse, dont make me own u some mpore bia*** wit ur microsoft redmon apache web processors using perl intsead of 1 and 0 damn newbs.

All I know is, I upgrade my hardware & reinstall my OS's constantly (at home). I like to keep my machines in tip-top condition, like many people here. When I max out my "activations" for *XP, I will immediately look for a crack on the net.
Activation is a joke, but the joke will be on MS when millions of people accross the globe begin to flood them with complaints! I can't WAIT to see how MS (but especially the US State Department)will respond.

I think you would have a point if you would use proper English. Let me guess, you dropped out of high school. The people on the internet who don't take the time to use REAL English make me sick.

As for Windows XP, my copy'll be legit if I get a new PC with it. In my opinion, if I buy Windows XP, it falls into the same category as audio; namely, I can make as many copies as I want for PERSONAL USE only. I own several PCs and I don't want to have to get multiple copies of XP.

All I know is, I upgrade my hardware & reinstall my OS's constantly (at home). I like to keep my machines in tip-top condition, like many people here. When I max out my "activations" for *XP, I will immediately look for a crack on the net.
Activation is a joke, but the joke will be on MS when millions of people accross the globe begin to flood them with complaints! I can't WAIT to see how MS (but especially the US State Department)will respond.

>>The people on the internet who don't take the time to use REAL English make me sick....As for Windows XP, my copy'll be legit if I get a new PC with it.....