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There's Still No Next-Gen DVD Winner Yet

By Ed Oswald, BetaNews

October 1, 2007, 2:19 PM

Despite what fans of either format may be telling you, don't expect a winner in the next-generation DVD battle for at least a year if not more, say analysts.

The battle itself seems to be doing the most damage, with a majority of customers opting to wait it out for a clear leader. Price of the players is also a major deterrent, research firm Forrester said in a report last week.

Forrester believes that Blu-ray would eventually win out, however it warned at the same time that prices of the format's players need to drop. Blu-ray's content advantage is beginning to vanish, and HD DVD players are much closer to what consumers are willing to pay.

HD DVD representatives told BetaNews at the Digital Life conference last week that a $199 standalone player will be available in time for the holidays. The firm said in the report that $200 seems to be the magic price point for many HDTV owners to consider a next-gen player.

It also said those looking for Blu-ray exclusives could purchase many of the movies from European retailers, where they are being sold in HD DVD. The format has no regional encoding, meaning discs will play anywhere in the world without problems.

Analyst J.P. Gownder, the author of the report, said that it was imperative that a $250 Blu-ray player be out by Christmas, and it must act aggressively to prevent more studios from supporting HD DVD. If Blu-ray fails to act, HD DVD very well could still win the format war in the end.

Either way, it could be up to 18 months until a winner can be crowned, he concluded.

Further data from Netflix seems to indicate similar momentum towards HD DVD. While views of the Blu-ray genre between July and Augst where on the average nearly twice as many as that of HD DVD, those who actually set a preference chose HD DVD by a margin of 2.4 to 1.

The data also showed flat adoption for Blu-ray while rates rose for HD DVD, and a higher likelihood by almost 4.5 times that a HD DVD browser would set the format as his or her preferred one.

"In what is increasingly shaping up as another 'VHS vs. Beta' all-around confusing situation for the consumer, neither next-generation video format appears to be gaining any real traction whatsoever," Mike Bailey said, of site analytics company Compete.

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By SGD

posted Oct 3, 2007 - 7:45 AM

Sony shots themselves in the foot yet again. It is great to be a customer of Sony.

http://www.dvdtown.com/n...in-own-net-with-bd/4782

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Oct 3, 2007 - 8:00 AM

What will truly be newsworthy is when all these BD players actually start to work. LOL

It's still a ploy to drive up PS3 sales. :)

Score: 0

By horsecharles

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 10:04 PM

I thought HVD had won... ROTFL (holographic)

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 7:24 PM

I noticed the girls over at blu-ray.com don't even want combo player on the market. What a bunch a scared faggots you BD shills all are.

Score: 0

By Cold Hand

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 10:10 AM

"Forrester believes that Blu-ray would eventually win out"

"HD DVD very well could still win the format war in the end."

So, you're telling us that if one loose, the other could win ? Thanx for the news....

Score: 0

By athome

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 1:53 AM

I will say this, MS should have bundled the HDDVD with the XBox360 from the beginning. From a pur marketing strategy, consumers would then try the HDDVDs more readily than having to purchase the external drive or an additional component at such a high cost to even experience the difference it offers. Then having an edge on the PS3, might have tilted the scales in their favor with regard to format.

That being said, it think that limiting the studios to one form of format is "forcing" the consumer to make a choice. Not over what is better, but by the types of movies that the studio produces. In my opinon, there will not be a winner in this type of fight, but a tyrant who will dictate what is and not offered as content on the respective format.

The ironic thing is, that most people are associating HDDVD with MS as if they are the ones that invented it, but actually have a stake in the way in which content will be delivered on it. However, Sony is the major player in Blue-Ray. They have already shown(to me) that they do not have my best interest at hand. I just don't trust them and their motives any longer.

I do think that Xmas will be a critical time for both formats. Howver, the 18 month time frame is comical to hear. I wonder if that is because Sony needs that extra time to work out all the bugs. (ha ha)

I am sorry, did I mention that I dislike Sony. I love the PS2, yet now looking to purchase my first XBox360(Falcon)!

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 6:25 AM

"MS should have bundled the HDDVD with the XBox360 from the beginning"

- Which is a neat little comment.....but detached from the facts.

Firstly when the XBox 360 was released onto the market the HD DVD drive was not commercially available and secondly the spin speeds were not fast enough for the 12x speeds the DVD games needed.

Score: 0

By athome

posted Oct 3, 2007 - 12:33 AM

I never said it was offered, I said that when it was available, they should have bundled it. This would have been a smart move for them. No facts were offered, only an opinion.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 8:23 AM

not to mention it would have driven the cost up big time.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:43 AM

http://movies.msn.com/mo...ist/09-28-07_4?GT1=7701

"As played out last week in the trades, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and Los Angeles Times, DreamWorks and Paramount seem inching toward a rough breakup after Paramount acquired the fledgling studio last year. Partners Spielberg and David Geffen have out clauses in their contracts at the end of 2008, and rumor has it they feel so disrespected by their Viacom benefactors (their $1 billion box office take this year has pretty much saved Paramount's bottom line) that they are ready to split and take the DreamWorks name and co-chairwoman Stacey Snider (former head of Universal Pictures) along with them. Obviously, the two parties are smart enough to continue working together on a cash cow such as "Transformers 2," but no one is expecting business decisions on the picture to go smoothly."

does DreamWorks leave and go Blu-ray exclusive? only time will tell...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 6:28 AM

"DreamWorks leave and go Blu-ray exclusive?"

- LMAO.

Guessing games, hilarious.

"Time will tell"?

It certainly will.

Do we have to suffer a whole year of you guys clutching this straw (like the 'Universal to go format neutral any second' laughable BS we've had since Jan this year)?

Score: 0

By Metfanant

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:51 PM

just stirring the pot...

Score: 0

By Metfanant

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:40 AM

http://www.blu-raydisc.c...News-27-09-07-13747.pdf

"At the same time the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has announced that Blu-ray
Disc movie sales across European territories are continuing to move ahead of HD
DVD. For example, in the UK market figures show BD to be outselling HD DVD by
a margin of 4 to 1."

“According to market analyst,
GfK, the gap between Blu-ray
Disc and HD DVD players is
closing despite the earlier
introduction of the HD DVD
format,” commented Frank
Simonis, Chairman, Blu-ray
Disc Association European
Promotions Committee. “This
is following the trend in the
USA where BD has already
overtaken HD DVD despite their US$ 299 price tag. Clearly, consumers are voting
with their wallets.”

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 8:05 AM

You know, for all your moaning in the last HD DVD / Blu-ray thread about never saying Blu-ray was superior ("they are of equal quality... both have their pros and cons"), your actions suggest otherwise. :)

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 6:29 AM

"UK market figures show BD to be outselling HD DVD by a margin of 4 to 1."

- ......and they avoid actual sales numbers like the plague.

The US market is tiny but the UK (like the rest of the European market) is minute.

Typical Blu-ray exaggeration and spin BS.

Score: 0

By Talkstr8t

posted Oct 3, 2007 - 6:31 PM

They avoid sales numbers because they don't have the right to share the actual numbers without paying GFK a huge amount of money. The numbers are indeed small for both formats, yet the trend and the ratios are unquestionable.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:52 PM

it doesn't matter how small the market is...its the fact that blu-ray is selling 4 times as fast...even though as you would like to point out...it costs more...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 2:27 PM

"its the fact that blu-ray is selling 4 times as fast"

- It's the fact that they piggy-backed on a game console.
That's all.

They have no credible data to back up that claim btw.
Go look at Amazon UK and Germany for their stats and you'll see the gap is nothing like what they're claiming.

.....and that with Blu-ray having many times over the number of high def capable players (depending on the stats it's between 10 - 20) compared to HD DVD they have barely got a 60:40 lead at present.

You can pretend that's a hugely significant number all you like but as we saw with Paramount when costs are considered those PS3 generated numbers simply aren't enough.

With $149 HD DVD players this X-mas and $100 by easter 2008 the writing is on the wall.

Watch out for Warner.

Score: 0

By WeezulDK

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 2:18 AM

First and foremost:

If you want to prove a point, quote a third-party, NON-biased source, not "www.blu-raydisc.com" (edit: OR a HD-DVD officially produced site like something from Toshiba or some other company with a direct stake in their format).

Second:

That post means diddly! I'm quite sure someone will post something from a pro HD-DVD site saying the exact opposite!

God... when will people learn to prove their FUD better so that it doesn't look like fanboy FUD?

The real problem is HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are just another +R/-R format war. There will be NO WINNER. ONLY LOSERS: the CONSUMER.

In the end, we'll end up with what we have now with the recordable DVD arena: Format agnostic players and the "oh-so-wonderful" compatability issues that go along with it.

Score: 0

By Michael.Hatamoto

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 12:30 AM

I can only imagine how many consumers are like myself - won't go with either side until there is a clear winner. IMO I can't tell the difference between the two formats on a good TV, and I don't want to side with any format, especially with some movies only available on only one high-def format.

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 11:37 PM

Wow - it needed a whole article for that? Thanks Captain Obvious.

Score: 0

By mjm01010101

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:28 PM

wake me up when player is

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 12:10 AM

...I think he fell asleep.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 10:01 PM

...is what?

purple?

for Great Justice?

a microscopic space fleet that, due to a minor miscalculation, is eaten by a dog?

The suspense is killing me.. :p

Score: 0

By mjm01010101

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:52 PM

Sorry, betanews cut off the comment because I used "greater than" or "less than" symbols.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 2:39 PM

Well, you explained why...but you still haven't alleviated the suspense. If it kills me, you may be liable for Murder. :p

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 10:23 PM

All Your Base Are Belong To Douglas Adams?

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 9:35 AM

He's one hoopy frood.

Score: 0

By Ryusennin

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 5:38 PM

> a $250 Blu-ray player be out by Christmas

HA HA HA HARR!

Score: 0

By DavisFreeberg

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:18 PM

As far as I know, Netflix has never released any hard data on the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD battle. They have said that it represents less than 1% of their rentals, but haven't given a breakdown (as far as I know.) I assume that what you meant by "further data from Netflix", really means data scraped together by compete.com? If not, I'd love to see the actual data provided by Netflix.

Score: 0

By ladylust

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:10 PM

I think HD-DVD in the long run will win because of how cheap the players are. True tech junkies will probably stick with Blu-Ray but sooner or later HD_DVD players will just bundled with TV's and they will simply win on market flooding. Then the exclusive studios will just move to HD-DVD. Its just a matter of time if Blu-Ray stays expensive and HD-DVD gets cheaper and cheaper. Everyone will simply own one.

Score: 0

By timatl

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 4:43 PM

ladylust, i agree with you totally with a $200 HDDVD around the corner it is really looking good for HDDVD at this point. it will be common for the poor people like me. Bluray is by far the Rolls Royce but I have the Honda budget.

Score: 0

By Talkstr8t

posted Oct 3, 2007 - 6:32 PM

"Bluray is by far the Rolls Royce but I have the Honda budget."

Except the promised $199 HD DVD player isn't a Honda, it's a Yugo, and I really doubt most people are going to buy a no-name HD DVD player (if it even has retail distribution) versus a name-brand upconverting DVD player at 1/4 the cost.

Score: 0

By Metfanant

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:46 AM

nobody is going to win anything until HDTV's become mainstream enough for the average consumer to have them....im not sure of percentages...but most people are still using SDTV's...so Blu-ray and HD-DVD offer people nothing until they are using HDTVs

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 8:12 AM

That I mostly agree with.

I say 'mostly' because not having a High-Definition TV hasn't stopped me from purchasing HD DVD releases one by one for when I am ready to enjoy them the way they were meant to be someday.

I guess if 'voting with your wallet' is what counts the most, I'm doing what I can in the meantime.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 5:01 PM

timatl,

Either you are grossly uninformed or just ignorant.

"Bluray is by far the Rolls Royce"

BD is unfinshed and was relased partly working, you have no clue what you are talking about or you are yet another one of Dave's accounts.

I've had a PS3 since launch, BD has problems my freind, try to play Liar's Dice on POTC 2, good luck if you have a half hour of your time.

HD-DVD has given me zero problems other than the slow load time of the first gen XA1, the A2 and 360 add-on are wonderful.

Score: 0

By AaronDobbins

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 8:29 PM

Not to be insulting but seriously? You bought a PS3 for Blu Ray, a first-gen HD DVD player, a second gen HD DVD player, and the HD DVD player attachment for Xbox 360?

Maybe you should get out more dude. Maybe take that money and go see another country. Seriously, just try it once. You may figure out that all of that sh!t is completely unnecessary.

Get some culture and stop worrying about telling all of your friends about your high def DVDs. Chances are they don't give a rats arse.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 12:37 AM

Actually the XA1 was a freebie, the A2 was a temporary replacement. The 360 add-on was just for the hell of it. The PS3 was a mistake.

I am going to wait and get a nice high end combo player in 2008 if Sony can ever get the 2.0 spec working.

I buy a lot of things knowing they will be sitting in a back room collecting dust in a short amount of time.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 6:07 PM

Not to mention that the Xbox 360 add-on works beautifully on the PC, too.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:15 PM

i agree. whatever is the cheapest is going to ultimately win. If Blu-Ray can't get down to what HD-DVD players cost, they are dead.

Personally, i am not buying either until there is a winner.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:57 PM

Now, if they could just come out with an HD-DVD / BD combo for the 360, I could eliminate a bunch of crap out of my rack.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:56 PM

Dont you already own a PS3 Dave / Steve / pitdingo?

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:26 PM

I don't own a PS3. Too expensive. I do own a Wii which is the best console since i owned a SNES.

Score: 0

By Tenoq

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 11:39 PM

I can't argue with that. After seeing/playing all three, the Wii is by far the most fun. You can talk all day about pretty graphics - but it really comes down to which one is more fun. I think Nintendo really nailed that on the head.

And we don't even have Smash Bros. yet!

Score: 0

By QQ

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:14 PM

crap.

in the end both formats will end up beig dirty cheap, but long before that the market will be filled with dual format players and recorders. now THAT will be EOW.

Score: 0

By evolution76

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 3:51 PM

lol this is like beta vs vhs.......lol oh well

Score: 0

By mathoda

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 3:32 PM

The issue should really be HD vs Blueray vs Internet-based-TV. See my post entitled "Skating to where the DVD player will go" http://www.mathoda.com/archives/168

Score: 0

By ladylust

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:12 PM

I can see your point but for that you need broadband connections. Alot of people still dont have them (believe it or not). There is still a ton people that use dialup. Alot of our population in the midwest simply cant get broadband (unless its satellite) because they are just too far away from the main hubs

Score: 0

By AaronDobbins

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 8:31 PM

No doubt. I would LOVE to get some internet TV but I live in the midwest and we just don't have that yet. People I work with live just outside the city and still can't get high speed.

Score: 0

By Phule

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 2:57 PM

"In a recent survey of HDTV owners by NPD Group, a full 73% were satisfied with the picture quality provided by upconverted DVDs for them to become too interested in a high-definition disc player of either format"

Isn't this HD format war a settled issue for the next 18 months with the consumers picking upcoverting technology as the winner.
I would be more interested in what happens down the road with CH-DvD....a market block that size that is being forced to adopt a single solution has to have a impact on everyone else.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 3:18 PM

Heh... That'll make 'em rabid.

HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray

Winner?

DVD.

Gotta love it.

To fanboys from both sides: You're all losers.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 5:03 PM

He's right. I still watch almost everything upconverted to 1080, my HD-DVD / BD collection is pretty small by comparison.

Fanboys do suck, I just happen to know which is better as I have used both on my own system.

Score: 0

By pitdingo

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:27 PM

Yeah, Blu-Ray by a mile.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 12:44 AM

Coming from the guy who doesn't own one. (so he says) we all know it's you Steve / Dave.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 9:59 PM

Ahead, or behind? :p

Score: 0

By GoodThings2Life

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 2:43 PM

It seems to me that this report is just reiterating what has been said up to now-- neither format is genuinely superior than the other in the minds of consumers, and the "confusion" (there has to be a better word) is turning consumers away from both formats. I know I haven't bothered to buy either format yet, and I will continue to buy standard DVD's for some time.

Score: 0

By Jordanr05

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 2:42 PM

I almost want a 3rd format to come out of nowhere and defeat HD-DVD and BD. That'll teach all you rabid fanboys.

(I'm anticipating where this discussion will be going on these boards)

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 5:04 PM

There is a third format coming, and it will be done smarter than both of the current HD formats.

Since less than 1% of all movies sold are HD, anyone can come in and win this stupid war.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 2:41 PM

Damn. And here I was hoping it would have been decided over the weekend.

/sarcasm

Who cares?

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 2:38 PM

"Analyst J.P. Gownder, the author of the report, said that it was imperative that a $250 Blu-ray player be out by Christmas"

- Well there isn't going to be one, so get over it.

There is going to be a very good quality $149 HD DVD out this X-mastho.

S'funny how these guys seem to be able to say the words but just not accept the inevitable implications
(note their mere 'belief' that BD would win eventually).

I see from the news today that Samsung have cancelled their BDP2400 high-end profile 1.1 Blu-ray player and the dual format BDP5000 (according to some also 'profile 1.1' but according to others only 'profile 1.0') has been delayed with no news on it's eventual release.

Obviously they just can't get 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' working properly with all the existing 'profile 1.0' players & discs.

Very bad news for Blu-ray and another indicator that these guys writing this sort of report seemingly can't bring themselves to admit.

Note too that they just skim over the fact that HD DVD offers the most available movie content, the most exclusive movie content and has the largest potential movie catalogue.

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:06 AM

I dont see any news about BDP2400 cancellation. Where are you seeing that?

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 6:23 AM

"news about BDP2400 cancellation"?

http://wesleytech.com/sa...ray-player-canceled/380/

Score: 0

By Setian^Stalker

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 11:28 PM

I see, since I last looked theres much more news too about users being sent order cancellation emails.
Good spotting :) there was a thread on blu-ray.com about how good this player was going to be. More delays, look forward to seeing that thread updated ;)

Score: 0

By SGD

posted Oct 3, 2007 - 10:41 AM

Thats the problem, the web site you went to. A product could be a total piece of crap and that iste would worship it. That is if it has anything to do with blu-ray.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 1:05 AM

"note their mere 'belief' that BD would win eventually"

Yeah, they've been saying this for two years... each time less and less sure of their original belief:

19 Oct 2005

"Two groups are competing for control of high-definition DVD formats to be launched in spring 2006. After a long and tedious run up to the launch, it is now clear to Forrester that the Sony-led Blu-ray format will win."

Heads up their arses. How could it have been clear when the "war" hadn't even started yet? I've never seen them release any data backing up their claim of a clear winner (before it launched, no less). I'm guessing BD wasn't as much of a shoe-in as they had predicted (or hoped, perhaps), since HD DVD has been gaining ground ever since.

Score: 0

By mano1192

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 3:38 PM

And of course heres come the first fanboy, honestly Hocu who cares, why do u come here and just rattle of crap. Again another post with no links to facts, but again WHO CARES. "profile 1" blah blah Ive had no problems with any BD Ive played, so again WHO CARES.

Ultimately I wil not rebuy my DVD collection in a HD format anyways, so its gunna take years for a new format to saturate the market so do we really have to read ANOTHER stupid "analyst" opinion about new tech that will not be mainstream for 5 years anyway?!?!?

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 6:33 PM

"And of course heres come the first fanboy"

- Yeah, cos pointing out the truth is just being a 'fanboy', eh?

"honestly Hocu who cares"

- Well obviously quite a few people do as these threads do get a hell of a lot of comments.

"why do u come here and just rattle of crap

- Why do you insist that the truth is "crap"?

"Again another post with no links to facts"

- Everything I that I have said is a fact is factually correct
(and the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub's mania for links to Blu-ray.com does not make their stuff a fact at all).

Where I have speculated I have made that clear too.

Challenge this stuff if you can but you'll find every point is correct and factually accurate.

1) There is not going to be a $250 BD player this X-mas. Fact.

2) There are going to be HD DVDs with a street price of $149 this X-mas. Fact.

3) Samsung have cancelled their BDP 2400. Fact.

4) Samsung have postponed (with no release date posted) their BDP 5000 dual format player. Fact.

5) They cannot get 'profile 1.0' discs and players (ie everything Blu-ray that is out to date) to play properly with 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' discs and players.
They have delayed the introduction of the new profiles 4 or 5 times. Fact.

.....and we know from Denon's comments that they are having problems getting the profiles to work properly together. Fact.

6) The cancellation of those Samsungs is bad news for Blu-ray cos - if it turns out to be a genuinely 'profile 1.1 capable player - that was the only 'profile 1.1' player that might have appeared this year (the Denon is delayed until late spring/summer 2008).
Fact.....unless you want to explain how it's 'good news' for BD?

7) HD DVD does indeed offer the largest amount of available content, exclusive content and the largest potential catalogue.
Fact.

"but again WHO CARES."

- Well you 'cared' enough to come in and post about it.

" "profile 1" blah blah Ive had no problems with any BD Ive played, so again WHO CARES."

- Don't be so absurdly obtuse.

You don't have a 'profile 1.1' or 'profile 2.0' player and you aren't - yet - trying to play 'profile 1.1' or profile 2.0' movie discs.

My bet is that you will find that you 'care' a hell of a lot if you find you current player chokes on 'profile 1.1' and profile 2.0' discs tho, eh?

I suspect more than a few Blu-ray owners are unhappy that they are paying a hefty (at least double the price?) premium compared to HD DVD and they are getting very very little in the way of any actual 'premium product' for their cash.

Score: 0

By Talkstr8t

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 3:44 PM

Wow, Hocus, you spew this crap everywhere, don't you?

"There is not going to be a $250 BD player this X-mas. Fact."

There has been much discussion regarding a low-cost BD player due before the holidays. How can you possible prove there isn't one?

"Samsung have cancelled their BDP 2400. Fact."

It's fact when Samsung confirms it.

"They cannot get 'profile 1.0' discs and players (ie everything Blu-ray that is out to date) to play properly with 'profile 1.1' and 'profile 2.0' discs and players."

There is no problem whatsoever with 1.0 content running on 1.1/2.0 players. Show me a shred of evidence to the contrary?

"They have delayed the introduction of the new profiles 4 or 5 times. Fact."

Once, from May to October.

"HD DVD does indeed offer the largest potential catalogue."

You're claiming P/DW + Universal > Disney + Fox + SPE + MGM + Lionsgate? You crazy.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 8:32 PM

"Wow, Hocus, you spew this crap everywhere, don't you?"

- LMAO.

I am factually correct.....and I note all you can manage is a lame 'prove it' and not a single factual counterpoint of your own.

Typical response from the shill-brigade.

"There has been much discussion regarding a low-cost BD player due before the holidays. How can you possible prove there isn't one?"

- We know there isnt going to be a $250 Blu-ray player this X-mas because (as we can see with the Venturer inexpensive HD DVD player) they would have to be making an appearance by now.

Blu-ray just didn't do what it needed to. No Chinese licencing deals, no prototypes & no imminent product.

If you can't see that you clearly know 'Jack S' about retail......either that or you just don't want to face it.

"It's fact when Samsung confirms it."

- Engadget claim the source is Samsung.

http://www.engadgethd.co...p-2400-delays-bd-up5000/

"There is no problem whatsoever with 1.0 content running on 1.1/2.0 players."

- Yeah right, that's why the shelves are groaning with the weight of so many of them.
Don't be absurd.

"Show me a shred of evidence to the contrary?"

- Wake up & try not to be so laughably ill-informed.

Denon have spoken (at length) about how they are (right now) "working hard" to get profile 1.1 and profile 2.0 players and discs working with profile 1.0 players and discs.

http://www.listenup.com/...non/talmadge.aug.07.php

FFS where have you been?!

"Once, from May to October."

- Wrong.
I can find reference to a May deadline, a June deadline, the Oct deadline and now the new Nov deadline.

http://www.campaignhd.co...7_BD_Delayed_Again.html

http://www.campaignhd.co...ent_BD_1G_Obsolete.html

http://www.videobusiness.../article/CA6427147.html

"You're claiming P/DW + Universal > Disney + Fox + SPE + MGM + Lionsgate? You crazy"

- First of all you'll find that a lot of the supposedly 'exclusive Blu-ray content' is nothing of the sort outside of the USA.

......and with replication costs very expensive and capacity extremey limited HD DVD has almost the entire independent market to itself.
Take off the US-centric specs.
HD DVD does indeed have the largest potential catalogue.

Score: 0

By Talkstr8t

posted Oct 3, 2007 - 6:26 PM

Sigh.

"We know there isnt going to be a $250 Blu-ray player this X-mas because (as we can see with the Venturer inexpensive HD DVD player) they would have to be making an appearance by now."

How do you know one of the existing players won't be reduced in price? Further, if an existing vendor has plans for a low-cost player to be introduced before the holidays, why would they pre-announce and completely halt sales of their existing models? You can't prove there won't be a low-cost player until the holidays have arrived. All you can do is look at the lack of evidence for a low-cost player and declare it to mean there can be no low-cost player.

Further, the fact that standalone Blu-ray players are outselling HD DVD players in spite of the price difference and the disc giveaway suggests that consumers are considering more than price.

"Engadget claim the source is Samsung."

No, Engadget refers to WesleyTech, whose author says "I've just received word...". The author never references Samsung as a source. Point me to a credible news site directly referencing Samsung and I'll concede the point.

"that's why the shelves are groaning with the weight of so many of them."

There are many possible reasons why 1.1 players are not currently available. Compatibility with 1.0 software isn't one of them, and further

"Denon have spoken (at length) about how they are (right now) "working hard" to get profile 1.1 and profile 2.0 players and discs working with profile 1.0 players and discs."

Your referenced article doesn't say a word about Profile 1.1 players having compatibility issues with 1.0 software. It refers to the [theoretical] possibility of 1.1 software having compatibility issues with 1.0 players.

"I can find reference to a May deadline, a June deadline, the Oct deadline and now the new Nov deadline. "

The website you referenced for two of the three links is the least credible source you could possibly suggest. They will take the slightest whisper of a rumor and declare it as fact. I am a direct participant in the BDA at all levels. There was originally a May date, and there is now an October date. Hence, there was one extension. Period.

"and with replication costs very expensive and capacity extremey limited HD DVD has almost the entire independent market to itself."

Absurd. Many European studios have declared support for Blu-ray, many of them exclusive. There has been and is no shortage of Blu-ray replication capacity - Sony alone can produce in one month 5x the total volume of all discs sold to-date in both formats.

"HD DVD does indeed have the largest potential catalogue."

HD DVD clearly does not have the largest potential catalog of major movies (which is the primary concern for most US consumers), and I very much doubt you can provide quantifiable proof that they have the largest potential catalog when including independent titles, either.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 4, 2007 - 11:06 AM

Better luck next time.

Why not try posting when the topic is still current, not after it drops off the main board.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 7:41 PM

"You're claiming P/DW + Universal > Disney + Fox + SPE + MGM + Lionsgate? You crazy."

No, he's referring to the fact that there is absolutely no region coding on any HD DVD discs or players. There are several supposedly Blu-ray-exclusive titles that are available on HD DVD in other countries that are able to be imported.

He has listed the statistics on available titles for both formats numerous times throughout various related topics in the past. Perhaps it is time to do so once more...

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Oct 2, 2007 - 8:27 PM

This is only because you asked nicely youngmj!
Enjoy -

These are facts....
and I've included those little links the Blu-ray shills here love so much -

(bear in mind these numbers apply in the USA & they have yet to remove the Viacom/Paramount numbers)

http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php

http://www.hddvdstats.com/index.php

Total available content -

Blu-ray 325

HD DVD 318

Total available exclusive content -

Blu-ray 195

HD DVD 187

Then remove from the Blu-ray total the number of supposedly 'exclusive Blu-ray titles' which are nothing of the sort and which can be sourced on HD DVD internationally cos HD DVD is region-free everytime

See here - http://areahd.dvdtiefpreise.com/?p=109

and here - http://forums.highdefdig...d.php?p=45960#post45960

(link fixed)

(Over 60 titles, but call it 60 for ease of calculation)

This leaves us with -

Blu-ray genuinely exclusive titles = 135

HD DVD genuinely exclusive titles = 187.

(I have heard of 1 HD DVD exclusive available in Japan on Blu-ray - but it could have been photo-shopped, nothing like 60+ tho)

HD DVD has more exclusive content, by far

Then add those same 60 titles to the total number of titles available to HD DVD and
remove the 30 Paramount movies Blu-ray no longer has and the 3 Dreamworks titles
and we are left with -

Blu-ray available content = 292

HD DVD available content = 378.

HD DVD has more available content, by far

Actual available and exclusive content and by that measure HD DVD is clearly far ahead
(and with a further 120+ HD DVD movies just announced by Viacome/Paramount as they really start to ramp up production that can only grow).

.....and given the major and smaller independent studios using HD DVD (cos the costs are lower and replication is available as opposed to being choked with short supply & low availability with BD) and the amount of supposedly 'Blu-ray exclusive content' potentially available on HD DVD through international publishing & distribution deals
HD DVD also has the largest potential catalogue.

These are the facts that count -

HD DVD offers image and audio quality 2nd to none,

HD DVD has the most available content,

HD DVD has the most exclusive content,

HD DVD has the most potential content,

HD DVD offers a proper range of spec & prices,

HD DVD has the lowest entry-level prices,

HD DVD has fully functioning advanced features,

HD DVD has a complete and functioning spec and

HD DVD's 'high end' players (ie the Toshiba HD XA2) are the same price as the under spec'd absolescent Blu-ray entry level players.

......oh, and lest we forget, HD DVD does not have the additional DRM sh*te that Blu-ray is attempting to foist on people

.....and HD DVD is not entirely dependent on a f*cking game console.

Mmmmmmm, nice, huh?

Score: 0

By Talkstr8t

posted Oct 3, 2007 - 6:28 PM

"given the major and smaller independent studios using HD DVD (cos the costs are lower and replication is available as opposed to being choked with short supply & low availability with BD) and the amount of supposedly 'Blu-ray exclusive content' potentially available on HD DVD through international publishing & distribution deals
HD DVD also has the largest potential catalogue."

This sentence is simply rubbish. Add up the full catalog of Fox + Disney + Sony + MGM. Add up the full catalog of Universal + P/DW. Blu-ray is way ahead. There is no evidence to support that independents are favoring HD DVD - if you think there is, name names.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 4, 2007 - 11:06 AM

Better luck next time (and try posting when the topic is still current, not after it drops off the main board)..

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 9:06 PM

Thank you.

Now I can sleep. :)

Score: 0

By plague201

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 7:02 PM

Don't let him get to you, most Sony fanboys don't even own a PS3. I remember Mark G. lying his a** off on these posts, once it all started going sower for Sony he weaselly left the forums. Now according to Hollywood, Marky and Davey primarily post on fanboy websites. Anywhere where they can suck off fellow fanboys.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 9:21 AM

"Don't let him get to you"

- Don't worry plague201, most of the Sony/PS3/Blu-ray fanclub couldn't 'get' to themselves using both hands, a full colour map and a trained physician offering guidance!

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 2, 2007 - 12:47 AM

Not Mark G, he vaporized or DaveBG lost the password to that username. It's so obvious they are all the same twit.

You have no idea what Dave will go through to spread the BD word. Just read some of his posts over at blu-ray.com where he brags about posting under twelve different names here to piss of the HD-DVD crowd.

I already posted his pathetic petition to get the last of the studios to go BD. Yipes.

Score: 0

By ladylust

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:07 PM

Actually I own an HD-DVD player and have re bought some movies in HD. Let me tell you, HUGE difference. All the very cool things you can do while movie is playing. I dont think i can even watch a DVD again. Even unconverted its still not the same.

Its like watching an old VHS tape vs a DVD.

Everyone said the same thing about DVD.. I will not rebuy my VHS collection for this new format.. Guess what, most of us did.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 5:05 PM

ladylust,

If you have 300, try the HDi features.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 4:11 PM

I don't know anyone who replaced their entire collection. Maybe a few movies here and there, but for the most part they kept their VHS players until they died and just got rid of the remaining tapes.

Hell, I still have my 6-Head Toshiba VCR. That thing will never die. It's great for kids movies because those are on the cheap in VHS.

Score: 0

By Hocuspokus

edited Oct 1, 2007 - 6:56 PM

"I don't know anyone who replaced their entire collection."

- I agree. They aren't going to.

That's where the idea of HD DVD simply being an extension of existing DVD pays off.

Prices are getting close and will get closer to regular DVD prices.
$149 this X-mas and, as the CH-DVD (the Chinese version of HD DVD which is identical except for a case logo and a firmware) production gets up & into volume production (thus forcing component prices ever lower), my money is on an HD DVD entry level price of $100 by easter/the end of spring 2008.

We'll continue to buy regular DVD players that upscale nicely and just so happen to play HD DVD well too.....and all for the same sort of money we buy DVD players for now.
Eventually movies will just appear with either the 'Twin format' (an HD DVD movie and a DVD movie all on the same side) or the 'combo' format (HD DVD on one side DVD on the other).....but my money would be on Twin format winning that little tussle.

Blu-ray just can't get cheap enough fast enough and is headed for being a PS3 format, which will still (like UMD PSP films) mean multi-million sales but essentially it'll be a dead format going nowhere.

Score: 0

By bourgeoisdude

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 5:53 PM

"Hell, I still have my 6-Head Toshiba VCR. That thing will never die."

Unfortunately, it is too late for me. All of the good VCR's and VCR/DVD combos really suck right now, and the VCRs that last forever are no longer being made.

I don't watch VHS all the time or something, but geez, I can't even convert home videos to DVD without uber craploads of problems--and when I find a VCR that does work, it works only about 6 months then dies again.

I guess there's just not enough demand for a good-quality VCR anymore...

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Oct 1, 2007 - 9:58 PM

Google it. It's got to be on eBay somewhere. Toshiba Model M751. Other than a few cleanings (obviously), this thing has lasted years without a single mechanical failure.

Probably one of the most reliable electronic components I've ever owned.

Score: 0