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Toshiba: Not HD-DVD, 'HD' DVD!

By Tim Conneally, BetaNews

August 18, 2008, 1:23 PM

Withdrawing from the fierce high definition format war was considered a "losing move" by Toshiba. Now, instead of concentrating on the next generation of hard-copy home media, Toshiba will focus on improving the 13 year-old DVD format.

Toshiba announced today a DVD player with full 1080p/24 fps upconversion. Called the XD-E500 that is expected to retail for $149.99.

Such a steep price tag is unusual, as Toshiba has 1080p upconverting DVD players for less than half that price. There have been no reviews of the product stating exactly what warrants such a substantial increase in price. Even early press reviews have noted only a "subtle difference" in picture quality when compared side-by-side to another upconverting DVD player.

Toshiba's upconverting DVD xde

However, it is not the player that Toshiba is celebrating so much as XDE, or (eXtended Detail Enhancement) technology, which looks to be Toshiba's brand name in upconversion going forward. It will soon have its own dedicated Web site: toshibaxde.com (not yet functional), and associated advertising push.

Toshiba's Louis Masses said, "XDE is not just a branding of our existing upconverters. XDE is a new
feature/technology which in improves the picture quality of upconverted
DVD's even further and brings them to a level closer to HD. The goal is
to simply offer the best picture quality we can from existing DVD's."

Video can be converted to 720p, 1080i, or 1080p depending on the connected display, and XDE also offers three upconversion modes: "Sharp, Color, and Contrast." Toshiba expects the XD-E500 to be available this month.

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By flibberyGiveIt

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 5:37 PM

Meh.

Encode in XVID and you get some four times the
pixels per disk with no loss of Q that I can see
at 2x magnify.

Score: 0

By Danno

edited Aug 19, 2008 - 1:40 PM

Smart move by Toshiba. My guess is that this will be another kidney shot to the Bloray. IF i didn't already have an upconverting player (by toshiba) i would have no problem buying this product as ithe price range is perfect. I do see alot of posts here by those Sony Fanbois and I am glad to see you peeps are still here promoting the crap that is Bloray.

Blah blah blah resolution, hey if it looks good / better than DVD and its a one time cost of 150 bucks. No problem as opposed to the 400dollar upgrade (at the very least) for a crappy bloray player that hasn't the available firmware upgrade support.

Score: 0

By Dark_Helmet

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 2:48 PM

a kidney shot...yeah...the format grew 300% over last year...but its still dying...i love it...

Danno you still have not found the mind that you lost when HD-DVD died i guess...

man the comments here are the best i've heard yet...they even trump some of the sheer crap that some of the BetaNews editors came up with during the format war...its wonderful...from DVD looking as good as Blu-ray...to studios intentionally degrading the quality of DVD releases to make people buy HD Media...its a beautiful world we live in....

the day Hollywood jumped ship on you guys should have been the clue to drop it...

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 5:45 PM

No, it did not.

Wait, unless by 300% you mean that it gained 300% more studios which is still inaccurate.

Blu-ray sales have been in the tank since the war ended because it didn't get cheaper like all you blududs claimed it would.

That said, I did buy a PS3 and the only improvement I've seen from Blu vs HD is in the audio quality.

Then again, I've only seen 3-4 movies on it since I bought it two months ago because I'm NOT buying them until they are reasonably priced (hello netflix).

Score: 0

By Dark_Helmet

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 9:48 PM

http://www.cdfreaks.com/...les-up-300-over-07.html

whoops you failed...

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 10:11 PM

"Through the first half of the year, consumer spending on Blu-ray titles is up $200M or 300% from the same period last year."

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1537

I had a 6000% increase in hits compared to the same period the year before, I guess I should issue a press release.

See, that's actually true however I haven't given you all of the facts leading to the increase or the source of my data.

The period they are referring to could be a day, or a week, a month, or a quarter. Without it being defined it's just another useless statistic.

Failed not.

Score: 0

By Dark_Helmet

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 11:27 PM

if you polished up your reading comprehension skills you would notice that they are talking about the first 6 months of the year...it says it right in the part you quoted lol

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Aug 20, 2008 - 5:51 PM

Remind me to never reply to posts when I've taken cold meds.

FAIL

Score: 0

By Pixelsmack

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 5:28 PM

I have a 100" DLP projection system and, yes, the difference in upscale versus the real-deal is quite obvious.

However when viewing an LCD or Plasma or DLP rearprj 50"...I could BARELY tell the difference. And if you just played a standard upscaled DVD and didn't tell me, I'd probably have guessed it to be HD.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 5:49 PM

I can see a difference on my 132" with Blu vs upscaled, can't see a difference between HD and Blu though (but I can hear it). Is it worth $399? Nope, and I still wouldn't pay that for a stand alone player.

PS3 is (barely) worth it since it has online media streaming, and games in addition to Blu movies.

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 1:41 PM

I agree Pixel, but newer movies like Transformers upscaled look way better than older ones like Twister (ugh).

I have a 103" w a DLP with the PS3 as the only source. It does one hell of a job upscaling standard vs my Samsung upscaling DVD player.

BD is still the s*** when it comes to HD, the got it right with the last few PS3 updates, I'm as happy as can be, especially with the black levels.

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 12:37 PM

That is because LCD has too much artifacting and motion Blur. DLP rear projection tv's are blurry and suck anyhow. Plasma will definitely show you the good picture, but it must not have been calibrated correctly, a lot of times the sharpness it turned down too much or the contrast is blows for "in store use" or it was a Vizio :)

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

edited Aug 19, 2008 - 1:50 PM

elite,

It's not the technology but the manufacturer.

Vizio cuts every corner and a lot of plasma manufacturers do too. Take a look at a Runco or Pionerr Elite and let me know what you think. They cost as much as a new car vs the inexpensive crap you can purchase at Wal-Mart.

When it comes to natural color DLP is the best IMO.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Aug 20, 2008 - 12:12 AM

I agree, especially considering Samsung's LED DLP models. They look fantastic, and are easily the best quality / cost ratio.

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 2:57 PM

Agreed, Vizio does cut every corner. Runco is garbage, horrible picture at a premium price. Pioneer Elits have finally gotten better, though I favor Panasonic and Samsung. I have a 1080p 42" panasonic in my living room and the picture is spot on perfect. Skin colors, black levels, white levels, all absolutely perfect. I also have a DLP Mitsubishi Projector spanning 94". also perfect in image color accuracy and the like. I have not had luck with sharpness and viewing angles with Projection DLPs... i just don't like them, they also have shottie contrast capability and are huge and clunky. Most plasmas are blown out for color in the store, shoot down the color in the picture menu along with contrast and brightness and you will get the most accurate color you can achieve on a display in today's technology, the main problem is, most people leave the sets on the factory settings and do not have the care (or knowledge) of accurate calibration. However, I am not saying DLPs are crap, but compared to what I use and have had the pleasure of dealing with, they are the bottom of the high end HDTV market..

Score: 0

By Dark_Helmet

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 1:36 AM

i personally think you must be blind, or were watching on a crap TV lol...because i can see the difference on a TV as small as the 32" 720p Samsung in my bedroom...let alone the 46" 1080p Samsung in my theater room....

its simple mathematics people...DVD 720x480 pixels...720p 1280x720 pixels 1080i/p 1920x1080 pixels...there are 6 times the amount of pixels on the screen when watching in HD then when watching in SD...

Score: 0

By ingram091

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 4:19 PM

Give me a break. You technopiles constantly b**** and moan and complain about the lack of HD quality in whatever. Its not our fault you blew thousands of dollars on equipment that the tech was not up to suppling yet. This way at the very least the public can get a little better quality out of your EXISTING DVD libraries if that is what blows their skirt up.

Sorry I never did get the concept of spending more for the the same thing I can get for 1/2 the price so for me the whole HD concept is moot as long as DVDs exist at all. Hopefully for many more years to come cause I don't plan on getting HD anything bluray or otherwise. I just do not like the idea of seeing the title I want being affordable here and at least twice the price for HD. When its the same movie or series dvd... It makes no Economical sense at all. I guess some have the money to waste in this lack luster economy. good for you. For me its wasteful. This solution makes any already existing and extensive DVD collection shine on a HD TV if you go for such things. Its a start long past due.

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 12:35 PM

Yea, because 480 lines is so much better then 1080 lines... HD is exhaustively better in picture quality AND sound... works flawlessly now, and even the best up scalling technology in the world will not make 480 lines as good as 1080, especially on a 1080p plasma or any projector spanning over 60"+ not to mention it is using the worst compression codecs in the video industry... MPEG-2? c'mon... h.264 at 1080p compressed smaller than a 480 DVD looks insanely better. Not to mention how good VC-1 looks, or even a high quality Xvid or Divx video on Mpeg-4. Its a dying technology, Toshiba needs to get with the times and just take the loss and start developing the next better technology.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Aug 20, 2008 - 12:18 AM

Though there could still be room for improvement, video is definitely there. Audio on the other hand... I'm not convinced that enough has been done to justify calling it HD as well. Too much audio on existing HD titles (HD DVD and Blu-ray alike) is simply more of the same DVD-quality (channels, bit depth and sampling rate) audio we've been accustomed to for the past decade. Uncompressed or not, most audio is still not high-resolution... with the exception of a few stand-outs.

Score: 0

By compno

edited Aug 19, 2008 - 12:39 AM

Its just a shame that studios have started intentionally limiting the picture quality on DVDs. When you see squiggly cloud-like auras around titles in movies (not the subtitles) you can be certain that compression quality has been compromised.

Score: 0

By Dark_Helmet

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 1:33 AM

oh i love it....now you guys have gone and lost your minds...first it was "blu-ray and HD-DVD are not that much better"...now its that studios are actually degrading the quality of DVD's in order to sell people on HD media? for the love of god...

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 12:30 PM

mmhmm, exactly how they tricked people into thinking HD DVD was so great.

Score: 0

By sjc001

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 4:23 PM

I agree with what you said. Some are just too hooked on consumerism to realize that new doesn't always mean better. You really have to feel sorry for them in this.

Score: 0

By Dark_Helmet

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 4:05 PM

Holy Hell Batman!...come on Toshiba...your ship has sunk....give it a rest...this petty nonsense is doing NOTHING for the advancement of the HD market....you can polish a turd, but its still a turd...you can upscale till the end of time and it CANNOT match a true HD source...its impossible....this is something that is just not possible...

Score: 0

By Adrian79

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 12:56 PM

you can shine a turd?

Score: 0

By Hollywood__

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 3:53 PM

HD-DVD was better than BD initially in PQ and black levels but the BD folks got thier s*** together, especially with the PS3.

Cars on BD vs upscaled from standard of course looks better on a 103" screen but the PS3 does one hell of a job with standard DVD's.

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 12:30 PM

Amen.

Score: 0

By afewtips.com

edited Aug 18, 2008 - 3:24 PM

I think they should have done this from the start.

On an 8 foot wide screen, maybe you could see the difference between BR and an average scaler. But on a 50inch plasma - I don't think BlureRay looks all that better than a quality scaler ouputting native resolution.
Check out my projector tips.
afewtips.com

http://afewtips.com/arti...-home-theater-projector

Score: 0

By Metshrine

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 3:34 PM

Actually, I do notice a difference on a 46inch LCD. I own an oppo-digital DV-981HD Upconverting player and as much as I love the thing, it doesn't hold a candle to a blu-ray version of the same movie on my PS3 on the same TV. As pointed out below, you can upconvert all you want, but DVD is still 720x480 max, while HD is 1920x1080.

Score: 0

By photonboy

edited Aug 18, 2008 - 3:29 PM

The HDTV role:
First, no matter how good the "Upconverting" DVD player is, it still only has 720x480= 345,600pixels vs 1920x1080= 2,073,600 which is 6X the number of pixels. Yes, it's SIX TIMES the quality when comparing the best, anamorphic widescreen DVD to a new BluRay movie (if the full quality is used). So how would a Toshiba upscaling DVD player make someone's eye look 6X as good? Uh, they can't...

24p:
Film is 24 frames per second. You can't shoehorn that into 60fps evenly for each frame so the HDTV must have a feature to play at either 48fps or better yet at 120fps. So no matter how great the 24p option sounds for the DVD player it's the HDTV that's important.

HDTV:
I've compared a lot of DVD players and I've discovered that if the HDTV has great upconverting, Motionflow, 24p, Contrast Ratio, Dynamic Contrast ratio etc they can do an amazing job even on an inexpensive DVD player.

However, the best DVD player in the world won't look very good on a crappy HDTV.

Besides, nobody that's ever sat down in an ideal setting and compared a good BluRay movie to its DVD equivalent would ever come away thinking the older DVD format was even close.

Computer as DVD player:
Computers have the luxury of modifying their functionality through software. Just about any modern desktop or laptop with the right software can get the maximum quality out of a DVD (BluRay has higher specs and more specific hardwar requirements). The drawback is power but even that's improving. Also:

A Home Theater PC can do even more such as accessing files via a Home Server or local drive(no more inserting discs. Play movies, surf the internet. Play music. With a CableCard the HTPC becomes your TV receiver and recorder. Gaming consoles such as the Sony PS3 are increasingly offering more functionality. The PS4 will be interesting to look at when it comes out.

Anyway, HTPC's will continue to drop both in price and power consumption. They aren't ideal for the average person quite yet but in a couple years a cheap PC could perform ALL your needs except for playing the latest high def video games.

Score: 0

By fletc3her

edited Aug 18, 2008 - 2:29 PM

I think it's funny that $150 is considered a steep price for a DVD player. Admittedly the last DVD player I bought was about $80 and featured upscaling. But, when you're hooking the DVD player up to a many thousand dollar television it doesn't seem out of line to spend an extra hundred bucks if the quality is worth it.

That said I've owned a fair number of Toshiba products in the past and generally swore off the brand. Toshiba makes about as good a cheap commodity player as anyone, but I just don't trust their ability to innovate. Their backing was one major reason why I was leery about HD-DVD.

Score: 0

By Banshie

posted Sep 5, 2008 - 1:06 PM

have you looked at their laptops?

Score: 0

By Metshrine

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 2:36 PM

I recently obtained a 250 dollar (about a year and a half ago) oppo digital player, the DV-981HD, and let me tell you that is one hell of a player. I wish I had the cash to upgrade to the new one.

But, that said, I now have a PS3 which blows away any dvd player or upconverter that I have tried.

Score: 0

By yountmj

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 8:22 PM

DV-980H here... and yes, they make one hell of a player indeed.

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

edited Aug 18, 2008 - 2:26 PM

I'll be the first one to endorse a new technology, even a great upgrade of an old technology, but going forward, with what Blu-Ray has shown, what others are working on past Blu-Ray, this seems like a tiny step for something not worth the effort. Sure most people are holding off on upgrading to BR, most are happy with DVD quality. The ones happy with DVD quality are not going to upgrade for barely a marginal difference in quality, especially when not having anything to add to the technology (ie: better sound, etc..) and the BR adopters will defiantly not waste time and energy on perfecting dying technology. You'd think Toshiba, losing the HD DVD war, would look into creating something better than Blu-Ray, with larger capacity, and move forward... with this kind of wasted research.. its no wonder they lost the format war. In my opinion, this is plain stupid nonsense.

Score: 0

By PC_Tool

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 2:32 PM

something better than Blu-Ray

Like...HD-DVD? ;)

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 12:24 PM

HA!, too bad it was horrible. Half the movies I had Universal went cheap and the picture quality was not consistent (like the first few BR discs). The sound was pathetic in comparison to Blu-Ray, the storage capacity was pathetic, the GUI on the players were slow and crappy. No one supported it other than MS, universal, and Toshiba. It was more "ready to go" out the box than Blu-Ray was, but so was DVD, and look at it now. Blu-Ray is also near flawless now, players are fast, movie are clean and crisp, sound is superb, and it is a sinch to rip and encode.

Score: 0

By IceyKola

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 3:21 PM

Blu-ray will be as good as HD-DVD was in a year or so.

Score: 0

By artdecodalek

edited Aug 18, 2008 - 2:42 PM

Yeah, the revolutionary HD-DVD, with half the storage space of Blu-ray and lovely Microslop codecs and toy browser interactivity layer! Now that's a real advancement!

Score: 0

By Real1tyczech

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 8:17 PM

So:

How was that Kool-Aid?

Nice and refreshing I bet after being pounded by Sony's Executive staff?

Score: 0

By IceyKola

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 3:24 PM

oh yeah. The same codecs that Blu-ray is compatible with. They are both compatible with the same codecs. MPEG-2, H.264 MPEG4/AVC, and VC-1. Funny thing is that most of the firt HD DVDs used VC-1, which is superior to MPEG-2 which the earlier BDs used.

Score: 0

By pridewalker

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 3:12 PM

You forgot to point out that for all of the supposed limitations, which you pointed out, it still managed to display audio and video on par with anything the 'superior' blu-ray disc has. I seem to remember something about it offering features and interactivity (when it launched) that blu-ray needed a year+ to get to the public.

Since it won the 'war', I've bought exactly 3 blu-ray discs, and my HD DVD player still gets more use.

On topic with the article: If Toshiba can provide more than a marginal upscaling performance, I might have to check this out.

Score: 0

By elitegangsta

posted Aug 19, 2008 - 12:29 PM

Audio is nowhere close to on par. Maybe if you listen to it on some cheap Sony speakers and an onkyo receiver or something... it is night and day on my Paradigm monitor 11's and my martin loagan's running out of a pioneer elite which is doing full 1080p video switching and uncompressed audio PCM with no transcoding in my projector room. Video quality on a lot of HD DVD discs were fuzzy and soft, and half way through the movie the quality went to DVD looking (like Van helsing, 40 yr old virgin, meet the parents, king kong... to name a few) Blu-Ray with the exception of the first launch titles, is absolutely consistent picture, much cleaner and contrasting imagery, and infinitely better sound.

Score: 0

By Banshie

posted Sep 5, 2008 - 1:11 PM

Source? sound no idea, they had the same codecs and the same output in rez. your mind is blu, so even if the BR disc had a VHS upscale on it you would say it was absolutely better.

Score: 0

By yountmj

edited Aug 20, 2008 - 12:31 AM

"Audio is nowhere close to on par."

The same could be said for Blu-ray.

Uncompressed does not by default equal better sound... marginal, maybe. If it is still 6-channel, 48,000 Hz / 16-bit audio, it is not "infinitely better". It is practically the same as DVD, minus compression artifacts.

You have nice playback equipment, it seems. I would imagine you should be demanding more out the source material.

High-resolution 96,000 Hz (or 192,000 Hz) / 24-bit audio... now we're getting somewhere. Why the majority of newly released titles do not include that as the default soundtrack is beyond me. Hell, even amateur concert bootleggers record, mix, and master at those resolutions.

Score: 0

By wreckedchevy

posted Aug 18, 2008 - 2:15 PM

from what i've seen of the spec's there is no mention of spursengine. anyone know if this player has it?

Score: 0

By EWaldron

edited Aug 18, 2008 - 1:58 PM

It could be this technology:
http://www.youtube.com/w...5uI&feature=related

Seems pretty good.

Score: 0