RSSWhere there's smoke: Apple warranty stance raises troubling questions
By Carmi Levy | Published November 23, 2009, 8:18 PM
I'm the last person who would ever come out in support of smoking. It's a noxious, nasty habit that according to the US Centers for Disease Control kills 443,000 Americans every year. The CDC says smoking is the root cause of over 30% of all cancer-related deaths, 80% of all lung cancer-related deaths, and 80% of deaths due to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
These are big, ugly numbers, for sure. But I'll be selfish and focus only on one: My father was a secret smoker for years -- a secret that ultimately landed him in hospital with a compromised heart, and a secret that ultimately killed him.
So far be it for me to defend smokers. And I won't. But after Apple's recent moves to tighten its warranty coverage and deny repair claims on machines that had been exposed to smoke, I find myself wondering whether the company has gone too far, and whether fair-minded consumers are being taken for a ride when they either buy an Apple-branded product or purchase an extended warranty.
The Non-Warranteed Warranty
First, the basics: The Consumerist reported last week on a couple of cases where Applecare Warranty claims were denied by Apple after technicians discovered the machines had been exposed to cigarette smoke. The company said it would not require its technicians to work on anything that could harm their health. And since nicotine is on the Occupational Safety and Health Administration's list of hazardous substances, Apple made it official by letting its techs refuse to provide service and, in the process, essentially void the warranties of smokers.
But here's the challenge: Not everyone whose machine is damaged by smoke is necessarily a smoker. While we can easily wag our fingers at folks who carelessly dangle a burning butt mere inches from their keyboard -- and laugh at them when the ragged remains muck up their keyboards and clog their fan intakes -- what about those poor saps who've never smoked in their lives, but happen to live or work in an area where their machines may suck up whatever's already in the air?
We don't often control where we both take and use our mobile devices. Some of us are occasionally forced to take our laptops into smoke-choked public places (they may be disappearing, but they still exist) or have the dumb luck to work in offices where the chain-smoking bosses still don't care about workplace health standards. Any machine that spends a few hours, days, or weeks in places like these will likely emerge with its insides coated with nicotine. Whether it's first-hand or second-hand smoke will hardly matter.
But wait, there's more
All of this means that Apple's newly tightened rules could potentially void coverage for perfectly well-meaning non-smokers who had the misfortune of using their machines in less-than-optimal environments. More ominously, Apple's move opens the door for other vendors to not only follow its lead, but to also pick and choose the kind of environmental conditions they'd like to void next. And even if they bother to update their fine print after you bring your spanking new piece of hardware home, chances are the first you'll hear of it is when something breaks and you bring it in for service, only to be told you're rather out of luck.
Apple has already managed to tick off some iPhone users by refusing to replace units whose moisture sensors had gone off. Immersion is another no-no for electronic devices, and Apple's been just as diligent ensuring it isn't on the hook for sweaty exercisers, rain-soaked commuters or folks who like to keep the humidifier on high. When I first wrote about this for Betanews last August, I got panicked phone calls from friends suddenly afraid to bring their iPhones into the kitchen while cooking or into the car on a damp, foggy morning. One father of a toddler freaked when the little munchkin appeared in his home office with a water pistol. It was empty, but he's now so worried about Apple's anti-moisture stance that the iPhone usually stays at home.
Say goodbye to mobility
Now that the smokey Pandora's Box has been opened, it's only a matter of time before we can't take our devices outside (UV, windborne pollen, excessive carbon dioxide due to global warming) or inside (fireplace emissions, paint fumes, foot odor) and are instead relegated to sticking them in protective bubbles that allow absolutely no interaction with the environment around them.
Yes, I'm being ridiculous. But so is Apple. Can the company's technicians truly tell the difference between smoke deposits left by a smoker, those obtained from second-hand smoke and those received during a business trip to smog-choked Shanghai, China? If Apple is so intent on shielding its techs from hazards, can it reasonably assure us that every piece of hardware it has ever made is completely devoid of noxious substances that can cause permanent damage to someone unlucky enough to pry open the case? In fairness to Apple, its latest generation of hardware leads the industry in eco-friendliness, but still, it's more than a little arbitrary to single out smoke deposits and nothing else.
Legally inclined folks refer to it as "reasonable use," which means, simply, that they'll cover claims arising from regular usage scenarios, and will deny those resulting from anomalous use. So accidentally bumping your machine against the door jamb as you rush out of the house is considered reasonable use. Pile-driving it into that same door jamb to test its structural integrity or otherwise entertain the small-minded? Not so much.
I get that vendors have to establish basic ground rules to prevent those small-minded folks from taking advantage of the system, and driving higher costs for the rest of us. I also get that the corporate ethics of a company led by a man who's been to the medical equivalent of hell and back twice, may be somewhat predisposed toward encouraging healthier, greener life choices. If that's what it takes to reduce the CDC's figures and save families needless heartache, then so be it. Vendors still shouldn't use it as an easy way to wiggle out of warranty obligations.
Carmi Levy is a Canadian-based independent technology analyst and journalist still trying to live down his past life leading help desks and managing projects for large financial services organizations. He comments extensively in a wide range of media, and works closely with clients to help them leverage technology and social media tools and processes to drive their business.
"excessive carbon dioxide due to global warming"
Haha, figured you were one of those types.
Score: 0
|Yeah, I had heard it was the other way around... The way that is worded one would think "Global Warnming" caused the "excessive carbon dioxide", when in fact, their claims are the exact opposite and that our CO2 output is causing "Global Climate Change".
(It's not warming anymore....people don't accept that when it's 30 below zero, so they had to change it....marketing reasons)
Score: 0
|This seems like a lot of bad publicity incurred for no sensible reason. Perhaps a mandatory cleaning fee would be a more sensible plan. Let customers know ahead of time what it will cost and that it will be mandatory if the machine is delivered for repair in such a filthy condition.
Score: 0
|If the nicotine contamination is minor, Apple should fix the machines and shut-up. If the machine is a mess, the mandatory cleaning would be invoked.
Score: 0
|Apple has a warranty?
I have had several friends complain that they have taken their computers to the Apple Store for repair and even though there was severe clicking noises (bad drives) in the machine Apple said the machines were fine and just reinstalled the OS.
Apple Warranty sucks, it always has. This comes as no surprise.
Starting in 2010, I think Apple should just go disposable. You buy it and if it breaks you throw it in the blue can. We can recycle!
Score: -1
|BREAKING NEWS!
Just in, Apple is stating that they lost 30% of the existing customer base,
3 of there 10 paying customers smoke!!!!!!!!
Score: 0
|Thats OK. All Apple is doing is hurting themselfs, and any other manufacture who (if they do) follow suit with Apple's bulls*** practices! There are people who burn with Fireplaces, Airfresheners, and the other several (unhealthy) ways are computers are exposed! Shame on you Apple!
Score: -1
|More followup from Apple's smoking policy.
http://blogs.channelinsi...c=TCIBESTOF11252009STR3
Apple should just send the computers back to china and have the 5 year old kids fix them that make them..
Score: 2
|I can't believe anyone would actually make a difference in their warranties for smokers...
I mean...seriously?
Score: 0
|I am a huge fan of Apple products (sans iPhone) but I have found their customer service and warranty to be the worst of any "PC" vendor. Extended warranties (a-la "AppleCare") are expensive, there is no email support, and the only way to take true advantage of AppleCare is to live near an Apple Store (which are only located in the largest metropolitan areas in the country). What good is an extended warranty on a desktop computer when the company won't allow you to mail them in for repair?
Score: 0
|I used to help repair computers and the cig film that was on the inside the computer was amazing. One lady brought her computer in with a hard drive and video card issue. We tried everything to see what the errors were. Even changed the so called faulty equipment. Finallly one of the other techs to some rubbing alcohol and cleaned theconnection pieces and walla the computer worked fine. The film was causing a short of some kind and the motherboard could not read all the info it needed. When we advised the lady to not smoke near her computer she went off on us about it and tried to tell us we were lying o her. We took pictures of the inside of the pc and connections and how the swabs were a dirty yellow color after cleaning. She shut up then.
People are blind when it comes to the damage Smoke causes. next time you visit a smokers house move a picture frame and see how clean the wall looks. Look at their windows in their cars. Smoke also damages plastic as well and makes it more brittle. So Apple has a right to do this. Its not a anti-smoker campaign its a we did not cause this damage so we are not responsible campaign.
Score: 2
|i'm very surprised that lady didn't sue you over your assumption, even though it appeared to be right according to her reaction to what you found. The problem is that you can't make assumptions like that about what a user does based on what you find inside a piece of hardware, be that water, smoke, etc.
This sounds like what apple does, they 'assume' because there was a film of smoke in an iPhone, that the user smokes, even if they don't. Heck ever lived in NYC? The issue is that a company can not make assumptions about it's users like that just to deny warranty repairs.
Score: -2
|bleh i need glasses, scratch the 2nd paragraph..... on topic "News Flash - Cigarette Smoke Particles Found in iPhones Can Give You Cancer"
Score: 1
|would love to know how it was an assumption? We did ask if she smoke around the computer( I should have mentioned that) She admitted she did and asked, which we then explained. If not for the smart thinking of our techs in taking photos of such things it could have gotten ugly.
I have worked on computers that stink to the high heavens of smoke and the inside was fine.
i am always amazed how fast the He/She will or should sue you gets brought up. LMAO most of these times a person does not actually have a case. In my instance she would not have. There was no defamation of character and we based it on the information we not only saw, but information she in fact admitted.
Score: 3
|@typongtive: if the cigarette smoke caused the problems than you might be able to say that its not a manufacturer defect. But you have to prove that the person caused the problem, if you can't then its a warranty claim and Apple is required by law to fix it. You can't just decide not to fix it because there is a smoke film in there.
Score: 0
|Damn you americans (candinaes too ??) are f*cked up accepting that companies can act like this, it is so screwed and would never happen in Europe.. Come on, how will you get your car fixed, there as so many "dangerous" chemicals here, no more will cars running on gas be allowed to be repaied.. I don't belive that it in any way what so ever can be dangures to repair a smokers laptop, show me some proof Apple, or you are just doing what ever you can to avoid repairment, just as you have done i the EU, where you have tried to avoid repairing your hardware too with silly excuses..
Score: -1
|"it is so screwed and would never happen in Europe."
Yeah... thanks to the over-abundance of EC "wisdom", eh? ;)
Score: 5
|apple tried selling me applecare for the 'early 2009 mini' and I was like .'ummmm, no thanks"
Score: -2
|This just in:
Hospitals now have the right to refuse treatment if a patient is sick and poses a health risk to their staff.
Score: 3
|*dons tinfoil hat*
You have no idea how close we are to that.
Our youngest daughter got ill a few weeks ago. High fever, flushed skin, the whole bit. They told us not to come in and called in a prescription for antibiotics to our pharmacy.
Needless to say, I found a location that would at least let her in the door and *see* her prior to getting a diagnosis.
Score: 2
|Damn bud... sorry to hear that. :(
Score: 1
|Just a minor bug...she was a-ok in a matter of days. Just that comment, along with the resent "don't come here" from the clinic kinda gave me a momentary lack of perspective.
Stil a little frightening when you think about it, though.
Score: 2
|To me, the big story isn't about Apple's latest attempt to cheat customers who actually paid for warranties - its the fact they had to pay for them in the first place. Apple's greatest offense to technology was charging people for a warranty on the iPhone. Guess what? AT&T now demands extra money to warranty anything it sells. That's right - nothing they sell includes a warranty (except possibly netbooks - not sure on that). When you factor in Apple's phony activist stance towards smoking you quickly see where things are headed. The days of warranty coverage of any kind are numbered. We will soon be arriving at a point where only the most high-end devices even provide the option of an expensive protection plan. Since these warranties are optional, must be renewed periodically and have many conditions attached, I believe that consumers should demand that the government start regulating AT&T, Apple and anyone else running this scam as insurance companies. Or we could just stop buying anything that doesn't include a reasonable warranty. In any case, until we stop rewarding these irresponsible companies with our dollars they will continue to reduce value.
Score: 5
|"In any case, until we stop rewarding these irresponsible companies with our dollars they will continue to reduce value."
+++ QFT
Right on. I'd give ya a fist-bump if I could. You nailed it.
Score: 3
|"I'd give ya a fist-bump if I could."
That sounds kinda dirty... careful, you'll void the warranty. ;)
Score: 3
|My Mac started smokin' by itself....does that count?
Score: 8
|they have things like "the patch" for things like that :) get it patch, like nicotine patch not software patch lol ok that was not funny.
Score: 1
|they work on smoke......once the smoke comes out they die
Score: 0
|Damage from smoking is not a manufacturer defect. If smoke from a cigarette damages your computer then it is entirely your fault as the smoker. The manufacturer has no obligation whatsoeer to fix your computer under warranty. Maybe all of the smokers will think twice about smoking around their computers.
Score: -7
|RTFA...
Apple is giving its technicians authority to refuse warranty repair work simply because of the presence of nicotine on the hardware (because of health concerns), regardless of the actual problem with the system.
End user has a valid warranty claim, decides to have the problem taken care of, only to be turned away simply because the customer is a smoker (or is around others who are). A legitimate warranty claim is denied because of something completely unrelated to the problem.
The article is not suggesting that any damage to the hardware is being caused by smoking. This is about techs with sand in their vaginas...
Boo hoo... techs don't want to work on a system because it's icky. Suck it up, I say. I had to put up with that crap all the time... and much worse occasionally. You know what I do in those situations? Throw additional cleaning fees on the work order, on top of the labor charges for fixing the customer's problem.
I guess next we'll see automobile mechanics refusing to work on a vehicle unless the customer cleans all of the excess oil off the engine and undercarriage. *sigh*
Score: 11
|wow,,,, I can just see what would happen if I refused a service call at work because its hazardous. I work in a battery factory, and they would boot my a** and get someone else in if I pulled that. They would do the same to my boss, or his boss for even thinking of implementing a policy like that... And honestly, how often does handling something with nicotine residue on it hurt anyone, it cannot on its own cause cancer, and I doubt a film of it rubbing off would have any noticeable effects..
Score: 5
|If smoking a cigarette around a computer causes the inside of the computer to look "icky" then the cause of the problem is most likely from smoking around the computer. If the rest of the US would get their heads out of their asses and ban smoking in public places like Oregon and California have then this wouldn't be quite as big of an issue. Unless a computer meets military requirements then it's not designed to be around cigarette smoke or any other kind of smoke. This is about as careless as setting a smoking incense stick next to a computer and wondering why the computer doesn't work when you try to use it later.
Score: -9
|And what do you know about military requirements?
Also, are you saying Apple should have the right to esentially tell people what they can/can't do in their homes? It should not matter if they smoke around their computers. People have been doing that for years I am willing to imagine and the number of actual claims where the smoke has even come close to causing damage is probably in the neighborhood of less than a percent. Apple trying to push it's agenda on others is wrong. I am not a smoker, but I wholeheartedly support the smokers right to do so. Until it is banned entirely, Apple should have no right to deny someone warranty work because they smoke. What is next, you can't get your mac serviced because you drive a Non-US car?
Score: 1
|"Damage from smoking is not a manufacturer defect"
These were not brought in due to smoking related damage.
"Applecare Warranty claims were denied by Apple after technicians discovered the machines had been exposed to cigarette smoke."
Not damaged by....exposed to. Big difference you seem to be ignoring.
Thanks for playing.
Score: 2
|"If smoking a cigarette around a computer causes the inside of the computer to look "icky" then the cause of the problem is most likely from smoking around the computer."
Nonsense. Yep... smoking damaged pixels on the LCD. Smoking caused sound problems. Oh, and smoking caused defects on the hard drive. Damn... smoking also made the wireless network adapter go tits-up! Oh, and can't forget about problems with the operating system that I read about all the time... from smoking. LOL
"If the rest of the US would get their heads out of their asses and ban smoking in public places like Oregon and California have then this wouldn't be quite as big of an issue."
How so? In all likelihood, that would simply escalate the problem.
Banning in public places... hmm. Fair enough. Customer takes his laptop to a "public place"... mall, coffee shop, restaurant, hospital... whatever. You know what I see going on in those places where smoking's been banned? People smoking in their vehicles. You know where the customer's laptop is? In their vehicle, where all that darned smoke is. They're most likely still in range of the WiFi signal inside their vehicle, and would like to use their mobile device.
"Oh, wait... I'd better put my MBP on the roof, because Apple might smell it."
I wore masks and breathing filters at work if a PC or laptop was dusty enough. Big deal... our air compressor was able to be rolled outside our shop for just that reason.
I wore disposable latex gloves on the rare occasion that a PC or laptop did more than just look nasty... they actually felt nasty. And you know what, gloves aren't a bad idea, because even if a computer looks clean [b]does not[/i] mean that it is clean (think after-hours porn surfers, which is quite a large portion of computer users worldwide, and you probably get the idea).
You see all kinds of eye-opening reports on TV talking about the health risks of dangerous bacteria in places like hotels (TV remotes, telephones, light switches and door knobs, etc)... and you think that someone's personal laptop that they use for hours each and every day is safe? The fact that it smells like a stale ashtray is usually the least of my concerns when I think of what some people do on or around their PCs or laptops.
Yep... computer users are no different than just about any other group of people. You've got your relatively small handful of just plain disgusting individuals. The way I see it, their money spends like everyone else's.
Score: 2
|"If smoking a cigarette around a computer causes the inside of the computer to look "icky" then the cause of the problem is most likely from smoking around the computer."
*laughing*
That's the extent of your diagnostic/troubleshooting? Wow.
"Gee, it looks icky in there...that must be the problem."
Unbelievable. I hope to God you don't do computer support for anyone who actually wants, ya know...actual support.
Score: 2
|I guess he's yet to run across laptop hard drives that smell like a sweaty gooch... that would send him into the fetal position.
Score: 2
|So by *your* logic: if dust in the air around the computer causes the inside of the computer to look "icky" then cause of the problem is likely from the dust in the air around the computer and therefore warranty shall be void. Dust can cause allergic reactions to people and possibly worse. Guess the only difference is that normal dust isn't on some OSHA list, huh?
Score: 0
|Anyone allergic to *dust* has more to worry about than working inside a PC...OSHA be damned.
That said, working inside a complete strangers PC should always require some form of PPE. This is common practice in many IT shops right now....perhaps Apple should look in to that.
Score: 4
|The bottom line is if a computer gets exposed to a hazardous substance that wasn't there to begin with then the warranty should be null and void. This qualifies as accidental damage which Apple does not protect against.
Score: -4
|*laughing*
Boom. Every warranty for every product that exists is now null and void. :)
You see, CO2 is also listed as a hazardous substance....and it exists *everywhere*.
See, this is where rational thought, common sense, and reason come into play. If you start voiding warranties based on every substance OSHA has labeled as hazardous, well...computers are *made* from many of these substances...so I guess we'll just go back to the Dark Ages. (Just without fire...because that creates all kinds of hazardous substances.)
Score: 2
|"This qualifies as accidental damage which Apple does not protect against."
Agreed... if the accidental damage was indeed caused by what you're suggesting. If damage to the system was determined to be a direct result of smoke damage, and that is not specifically covered under the warranty, then fair enough.
Once again though, this is not what the article is about, and it is not the policy that Apple is attempting to implement.
Plainly and simply put, this is about Apple techs being told that it's OK to refuse any legitimate repair work, simply because the system may smell like an old ashtray, or that oh-so-pretty white plastic has a yellow-ish hue now.
Manufacturing defects with LCD panels, inverter boards, hard drives, keyboards, touchpads, power supplies, batteries... whatever the warranty should cover... will not be repaired on a whim, simply because the tech doesn't like the way the system looks or smells.
I've done diagnostics, cleaning, and refurb work on numerous CE products, PCs, laptops, and printers for actual smoke "damage" from house fires. In most cases, aside from the smell, those devices were still fine... at least the ones that weren't drenched when the fire was extinguished, which is to be expected.
If smoke was the cause of the damage, then fine... but they'd better be prepared to offer irrefutable proof that it was (and that is not so easy). It was was not... then Apple techs need to man-up, live up to their end of the bargain, honor the warranty, and fix the customer's problem.
Who had that cluebat again?
Score: 3
|I found a taskbat in another topic...will that work?
Score: 1
|Only if it's a drastic departure from previous taskbats. ;)
Score: 2
|Seriously? So, I have a roommate that smokes and I don't and it's not my right to tell the roommate not to smoke (not my residence or whatever), then I have voided my warranty? That is asinine and IMHO, borderline criminal.
Score: 1
|GD:
Unless a computer meets military requirements then it's not designed to be around cigarette smoke or any other kind of smoke.
And what exactly do you know about military requirements? You have made a claim that has sparked my interest. What exactly do you know about this?
Score: 1
|Fix... I'm anxiously waiting for the answer to that one... here, let me hold my breath. ;-)
Score: 1
|"Only if it's a drastic departure from previous taskbats. ;)"
*laughing*
Ohman... Thanks. That was awesome.
Score: 2
|Apple is, and has always been, a scam. They make over priced crap! Anyone that is stupid enough to buy their crap should deal with the stupid things that come from it. Just like if you want to buy meat form Walmart, then that is your fault that your get rotten meat! Learn to make better choices.
Score: 4
|Uh...rotten meat? No, that's actually a health violation. That could get them shut-down. Good story about that and a Cub Foods Store back when I was younger, but....different topic.
Nobody should "deal" with stupid things. Change them, don't just let them slide.
Score: 2
|I have to ask if Carmi has ever seen the inside of a smoker's computer or not?
The tar build up can be horrendous and personally, as a tech, I won't work on a system that has gotten to that point either. It's all of the disgusting aspects of smoking multiplied and concentrated in build ups on the core components. I can't say for sure how unsafe it is, but I do know how disgusting and gross it is, and the only option I offer to people who bring me a system like that is to replace it.
Score: -9
|I've been working on systems since the TI-99/4A days. I've seen computers with roaches, spiders, rats nests, smoking dust buildup, you name it. If smoking near your system voids the warranty, so should simple dust buildup, and can you honestly see that happening? I can understand a tech refusing to work on a machine that stinks of smoke, esp. if they have allergies or whatnot, but voiding a warranty, not seeing that. I'm waiting for the lawsuit from the two people who have been mentioned in the news over this.
Score: 15
|"I'm waiting for the lawsuit from the two people who have been mentioned in the news over this."
Here's hoping...
Score: 7
|Maybe the two people in this article should learn the difference from a manufacturer limited warranty extension and an accidental damage policy.
Score: -6
|Maybe someone here should understand that it is *highly* unlikely that "smoke" was the *cause* of whatever issue the device was brought in for....
They didn't bring them in because smoking damaged the device...they brought them in and were denied support simply due to the fact that "someone" smoked around the device.
Score: 3
|I actually have. I've seen the insides of laptops owned by smokers, as well as those who lived with more cats than any human ought to have a right to.
I'm not denying that smoke is horrid for a machine. It is...and the result can be a pretty sickening mess. I'm also not denying that the "disgusting and gross" mess you describe isn't enough to make the average tech dry heave a bit. My point here is that now that Apple's summarily decided to walk away from supporting any machines exposed to smoke, there isn't a whole lot stopping it from deciding to do the same vis-a-vis any other environmental exposure.
So today we start with smoke. Tomorrow they decide excessive sunlight is grounds for voiding the warranty. Then too much Glade air freshener...
Pandora's Box has just been opened.
Score: 3
|If people are upset by Apple's smoke damaged warranty policy, they should simply buy a different brand. That would have one of two effects:
1. Apple would change their policy.
or
2. Other manufacturers would have the joy of fixing smoky machines.
I do think that the policy should only effect people who made purchases after the policy was put into effect, however.
Score: 0
|@ Jalandar
You're fired.
Score: 0
|While your conclusion is sound in principle, it ignores the fundamental reality of why they're voiding the warranty in this case. NOT because the "environmental exposure" *caused* the issue - i.e. they're not voiding coverage for the damage/problem to the computer, which is what many of the other environmental exposures you're writing about would cause. No, they voided the warranty because working on the machine would be a potential toxic hazard to their technicians (nicotine is, as noted in the article, an acknowledged health hazard), and they got complaints - legitimate ones if you ask me.
Did any of the bleeding heart smoking apologists in this thread stop to think of the other side of this legal issue - that the techs working on this could easily sue Apple for hazardous working conditions? In that light I think Apple is probably making a sound decision. The most they could lose from a suit regarding their warranty coverage is the cost of warranty or maybe the machine (plus legal fees), unless it turned class action, and even then it would still be relatively low overall damages. Whereas if the worker's union sued for hazardous working conditions? Could be big money.
Anyway the problem here is not the policy. I for one think it's perfectly reasonable, and even if you don't, no one is forcing you to buy Apple products or warranties. The problem is that they didn't let anyone know in advance (as far as I have read). If it's not in their terms, even if they have a general clause for "health hazards" (which they may well), it's still not clear enough to the average person without an explicit clause exempting machines in smokey environments. Such an exemption would clear up the whole mess in my opinion. Just don't buy Apple if you're a smoker and want warranty service. Or, you know, SMOKE OUTSIDE YOU IDIOT.
Score: -1
|"I've seen computers with roaches..."
Yeah, me too... both kinds, actually. That was a rather interesting find that day. =)
Score: 1
|I did repairs for years also and I always wore gloves and a mask for the bad ones. I have horrible allergies and cannot stand smoke and dust, but, the profession that I chose put me in contact with allergens. I could have quit and found a cleaner profession, but I didn't. Instead, the shop that I worked for provided me with protective materials.
However, for Apple to say that a warranty is voided because they are "protecting" their technicians is simply rediculous.
Score: 1
|"Did any of the bleeding heart smoking apologists in this thread stop to think of the other side of this legal issue - that the techs working on this could easily sue Apple for hazardous working conditions? In that light I think Apple is probably making a sound decision."
Sure, the technicians could sue if OSHA standards are not met OR the company in question does not provide personal protection and disclose that there could be hazardous working conditions. Given that the technicians are already working around electricity (which is, at least to me, slightly more dangerous then nicotine), Apple must have a stated, OSHA approved, safety policy. Apple could easily skirt the legal issue by simply providing protection against chemical hazards and posting an update safety policy reflecting this wherein the technicians understand they are working in a potentially hazardous environment.
Score: 1
|I do not smoke and am certainly aware of the obvious risks and dangers of smoking cigarettes...
However, the last time I checked, smoking cigarettes and the use of tobacco products is still legal; which begs the question, what would the high-minded people at Apple do if one of their techs detected marijuana residue inside a Macbook sent in for repairs under the warranty ?
Would they report it to the police ? Would they refuse to service it due to fear of a possible "contact high" ? Would they scrape out the gunk and smoke it themselves ? But of course, I suspect the high-minded and health-conscious folks at Apple, while reeling in disgust and horror from tobacco residue, would find a notebook reeking of pot to be hip and cool.
Anyway...better be careful not to eat any peanut products around your Apple because you never know if any of their techs might have one of those deadly peanut allergies.
And...Happy Thanksgiving, btw.
Score: 1
|"...that the techs working on this could easily sue Apple for hazardous working conditions?"
Nonsense, as it's not Apple's fault that some repair work deals with devices that are owned and used by smokers, or by those who operate those devices in environments where others smoke. Apple did not provide these "hazardous" devices to the technicians.
Any technician with half a brain realizes full well that there are going to be unpleasant experiences when dealing with other people's property. Everyone is equally entitled to the same level of support, regardless of how unpleasant the process of supporting certain individuals is. It simply goes with the territory. Customers paid for a device and the support that goes along with it. If the technician cannot handle the "work conditions", then that technician should consider another line of work.
Score: 2
|Couldn't have put it better myself...
Score: 0
|I have a very simple solution for this "problem." Get lots and lots of smokers to go in an Apple store and get them all to light up at the same time. That will make all the stuff in the store unsellable! Repeat as necessary in as many Apple stores as possible. Time to take the worm out of their damn ego.
Score: 7
|And everyone lighting up in the public building will get arrested for breaking whatever law there is over that. Brilliant!
Score: -7
|Yup. They might even have to pay a small fine.
Oohh....the horrors.
Sadly, the number of folks willing to risk a measly fine in a display of such civil disobedience has dwindled to next to nothing, and without large numbers...it's darn near pointless unless the act is *extreme*, which usually means "fatal". It'd have to be organized....maybe they can all get the plan set up over twitter from their iPhones. ;)
(Well, that and judging by the posts in most TPB topics, most people now think downloading a song is an act of civil disobedience. Not even close...)
Score: 2
|Yup, right on target, PC_Tool. People would rather stay comfortably numb and get shafted than making things right. By the way, imagine if fifty people participated in just one "smoke in" and all of them refused to pay what ever fine some moronic judge said they had to. Imagine how that would reflect upon Apple to see it's customers pissed off to that point by them. It just might have a cooling effect on potential new customers.
Score: 1
|You shouldn't worry or question Apple's policies. Apple always has it's consumer's best interest at heart. This is a company that can do no wrong. Relax, as always Apple has your back.
Score: 0
|"Apple has your back."
...or at least an arm and a leg? ;)
Score: 7
|I fully agree with you here. If Apple decides not to work on computers exposed to cigarette smoke they have every right to. It's also legal to put a clause in the warranty stating the terms can change at any time with or without notice.
Score: -3
|Seriously... put down the Kool-Aid. I would love to see your Apple commision checks one of these days...
Score: 1
|That is exactly the reason we are in the place we are! Companies can usse any sort of legal terms to get out of most anything rather than being good corporate citizens and honoring a contract.
So, I can put out a product, with a warranty with terms that state that I can void my warranty anytime my heart desires. While, yes, it is perfectly legal, it is also perfectly immoral.
Pathetic...
Score: 3
|Oh great, what more egregious claims are the technicians going to make...
...can't work on this iPhone because the user ate peanuts... void the warranty
...can't work on this iPhone because the technician is a vegetarian and the user eats meat.... void the warranty
...can't work on this iPhone because the user used a ammonia based cleaner... void the warranty
Score: 11
|If an iPhone owner used an ammonia based cleaner on their iPhone then this is accidental damage, not a manufacturer defect.
...can't work on this iPhone because user is too stupid to own one.
Score: -6
|hardly troubling to me, i'm a PC ;)
Score: 15
|I'm sorry to hear that, are you taking any medication for that?
Score: -12
|@iTard7
Nah, being able to do simple things we PCs take for granted, like mapping network drives and having them *remain* mapped after logging out and back in pretty much take care of any remaining issues.
Having recently acquired a MacBook Pro, I am absolutely dumbfounded how hard it is to accomplish such a simple task. We have several SMB shares here. To get them to automount on login, I had to either edit etc/fstab, with vi, no less (which I haven't even had to do in Linux since, like....forever), add entries to "login items" which spawned a finder window for each share every time you logged in, or purchase a $150 dollar program (which also allows the system/user security to be managed by Group Policy in an AD Domain, by jove!).
Stunned.
Well, not completely...
I had heard our design and HelpDesk guys/gals whining about "Dave", and witnessed their overjoyed celebrating when they heard SL would be able to connect to AD domains and *gasp* even Exchange...and then their ensuing dismay when the AD functionality did next-to-nothing and the Exchange support wasn't even as functional as it is on the frigging iPhone. Yes, they can connect to our exchange server seamlessly on their gadgets (iPhones), but not so much on their super-expensive Apple Workstations. Unbelievable... (Why not support EWS *and* ActiveSync...or at least charge $10 for ActiveSync functionality??)
Color me unimpressed. An SMB share? That hard to manage? Seriously??? Even most Linux Distros do this better than Mac OS X. (Can't really blame them for the lack of ActiveSync...licensing and such.)
But no, seriously...if anyone knows a better way to do this in Mac OS X Snow Leopard, do tell...the net is littered with folks begging for this functionality... you'd be the hero of all 30 Mac users. ;)
Score: 10
|;o)>
Score: -6
|"you'd be the hero of all 30 Mac users. ;)"
That was the perfect end to a rough day. Thanks! LOL
Score: 3
|Very very true... we have very few remaining macs on our networks at work (couple fussy engineers that wont give it up) and the simple networking issues that even linux handles seamlessly eats up a good amount of our IT depts time. For something so "advanced" it sure does fall behind those it jeers so openly in many cases.
Score: 4
|Very bad move from Apple. Now it gives a good enough reason for these people to go back PC. Apple need to grow up sometimes.
Score: 7
|@Qelami - People need to stop being so ignorant. Smoking around any PC (Mac or Windows) will eventually make the computer stop working. I will agree that Windows is much better than Mac OS X, but damage that occurs from a PC being around smokers should never, ever be covered by warranty because the damage is never a manufacturer defect since computers aren't designed to be used around smokers.
Score: -3
|And by the time it does it will be so far out of warranty it will not work with anything in the last 5-10 years. Show me one documented case where smoking has caused a computer problem? And no, I am not talking about someone catching their system on fire from a cigarette left burning. I want to see where smoke or nicotine has caused computer component damage.
Score: 6
|Technically if the chassis is damaged from cigarette smoke this can void the manufacturer warranty on any PC. If one component (the chassis) has accidental damage and the hard drive goes bad due to a manufacturer defect then why should the manufacturer cover the computer under warranty? This makes no sense. The warranty does NOT cover ANY accidental damage to the PC! If I took an eye dropper and put a tiny drop of water on the sticker under the battery on a cell phone and the sticker turned red my warranty would be void even though the phone would most likely not have been damaged.
Score: -4
|Ah...stretching to the absurd now, I see.
Won't be long until the name-calling starts, folks. Let's hope no-one here is still expecting rationality or reason from this poster any longer.
"This makes no sense."
You got that right. You were referring to your "arguments", right?
"If one component (the chassis) has accidental damage and the hard drive goes bad due to a manufacturer defect then why should the manufacturer cover the computer under warranty?"
Because the Case is not the PC, and discoloration != damage (to anyone able to reason adequately), and of course, because the failure of the drive was due to manufacturer defect...not accidental damage.
"If I took an eye dropper and put a tiny drop of water on the sticker under the battery on a cell phone and the sticker turned red my warranty would be void"
Because that would have been damage on purpose....? You deliberately, and with forethought, placed water on electrical equipment.
But hey, keep trying. Try the Boat Anchor excuse next. That's always good for a laugh. "But if I didn't use my laptop as an anchor, I would have drifted off to sea...it wasn't as though I was *trying* to damage my laptop. Honest!"
Score: 3
|@PC_Tool - Most computer warranties for a store bought computer don't look at each component individually, they look at the PC as a whole. This is a concept you don't seem to understand. This means that if any component has intentional damage whether it be from smoking or something else then the warranty is null and void. Non powered components are not exempt from the warranty. The warranty for a store bought computer is not the same thing as it is for DIY's.
Score: -5
|"Most computer warranties for a store bought computer don't look at each component individually, they look at the PC as a whole."
Incorrect. Every component carries it's own manufacturer's warranty against defects. Usually in a pre-built rig, the company that produces it will take care of a cover-all warranty and then deal with the other companies directly.
However, what you are missing here is that the article has nothing to do with *intentional* smoke damage. It has to do with Apple voiding a warranty so as not to expose it's technicians to harmful chemicals.
Granted, if you sit there and smoke for 20 years blowing smoke in your computer, that should void the warranty. The article does state that in one case, the user believed it to be a faulty fan and the other case is unspecified. What if they were brought in because of a dead CMOS battery or perhaps a cracked screen (like in the case of those latest Apple Core i7 shipments)? Are you going to suggest that is caused by someone smoking around their machine and the warranty should not be honored?
Score: 2
|Thanks, DotNet_Coder...
I am almost certain his only experience with warranties is through Apple, judging by his extremely messed up view of what is normal...
Score: 2
|"Are you going to suggest that is caused by someone smoking around their machine and the warranty should not be honored?"
Of course. Why should today be any different than the past two days? ;)
Score: 1
|All of you need to remember that according to Apple specifically, if you buy a Mac then it's not your computer. It's theirs and they're just letting you use it. This has been their stance on everything Apple.
Score: -4
|"All of you need to remember that according to Apple specifically, if you buy a Mac then it's not your computer. It's theirs and they're just letting you use it. This has been their stance on everything Apple."
...and where does it state this, exactly?
Score: 1
|"This has been their stance on everything Apple."
Okay... it's official now. Logic and reason are wasted on you.
Score: 1
|Unwritten rules like knowing where the kitchen is without instructions to get there.
Score: 0
|Here is my take... Apple is suffering from a barrage of quality control issues that are affecting their claim of "it just works". In an effort to manipulate the numbers for warranty repair they are adding an option to refuse service to any device exposed to smoke.
The PC industry should jump on this. They should make a commercial about a Mac that needs to live in a bubble, vs. the PC that can survive in any environment. It's truly sad that Apple needs to take this route in order to maintain its "better than a PC" claim. In the end they are painting themselves in a corner & providing the PC industry with ammunition. I can see the warning label on the outside of an Apple product now:
**Addendum: Apple reserves the right to void any warranty if the product is deemed to be exposed to ANY environmental condition. This may include, but is not limited to: Air, smoke, pollen, CFC's, aerosol residue, dust, mites, microbiological contaminants, crumbs, cobwebs, or other ***potential hazards.
***Potential hazard are determined by Apple & may not agree with your terms or definitions. By signing the outside of this box & opening it you accept this policy & understand that you are required to operate this mobile device within the confines of a clean room with a rating no less than Class 10 as defined by the FED-STD-209E standard.
Score: 3
|@ SolApathy:
Good stuff there. :)
Interesting theory... and it may actually be true.
Score: 0
|