Montagp-You bet I have heard of Ron Paul! He is our only way out! It is time and He is our answer!!!
I pray he does! The media is owned by the very people we need to get out of office. Look at the reporting on 9/11. They forgot to tell the people the towers were blown before the planes ever hit them. My father was an Air Force pilot and the stats aren't adding up!

I for one really hope Paul wins.

I think most Americans agree. It's downright shameful the way the media is ignoring him. By CNN's own phone-in polls Ron Paul has been clearly winning the debates, yet they still refuse to take him seriously. The "independent" press is hijacking our democracy.

Remember to donate money to Ron Paul on December 16th.
www.teaparty07.com

Lets try and wake the media up once and for all.

All 53 people in my office have committed to donate.

If you want my honest opinion.. I think this guy Klein should be executed!

How many people did he know that died in the 9/11 attacks on our country? If he did know anyone that died in the tragedy of 9/11 he probably wouldn't care anyway.

We have a government that is doing there best to sort out problems and make our home land a safer place and then we have an animal like Klein dancing around like a complete a****** blabbing things he shouldnt even consider speaking about.

I hope the son of a b**** gets what he deserves for all of this!!

Since Mr Klein enjoys being in the spot lite so much
maybe we should concentrate our efforts in finding out where this son of a b**** lives, and his daily movemets After all attention is attention and he shouldn't mind it one bit. Maybe that's just the kind of attention he needs.

Klein .. If you mom was getting cooked in a concentration camp. Would you support the Nazis?
You probably would if it meant a minute of fame!

While some of us are overseas taking bullets, it literally blows my mind that this a****** so proudly blabs things that undermine the security of our nation.

If Mr klien is so unhappy with the way we gather information about terrorist organizations, I know couple neighborhoods where he may find life a little better for him in the middle east.

In fact I wouldn't mind wearing him as my bullet proof vest. Klien you Anti American bas****.. I hope you get yours in the end!!!

I know its easy to go "Archie Bunker" on this stuff... "My country love it or leave it".

But really consider the long view. I lost family in the towers, I'm still not willing to give up my rights as a result. I'm not will to loose the freedoms and ideals that once made this country great in order to get some visceral short term payback.

Some of the most shameful periods of US history have revolved around this type of short sighted thinking. Remember when we rounded up the Japanese for the terrible crime of being Japanese? Remember when we blackballed and jailed innocent American who's only crime was that they had different political beliefs, beliefs protected under the constitution but vilified under Senator McCarthy? Remember when we started spying on our own people in direct violation of our 4th amendment rights? Or when we started paying other countries to perform illegal act of torture based interrogation on our behalf? Oh wait we are doing that right now aren't we?

I am not a paralyzed liberal. I want to kill the bad guys as well, But I don't want to kill the future rights of my son and daughter in the process. It is not OK to become a barbarian to beat a barbarian, we are better than that.

I think it's natural for people to fear death. But we won't lift a finger to prevent death unless there is a convenient villian so we can get angry.

I didn't know anyone personally who died in the 9/11 attacks.
My brother died many years ago in a traffic accident.
So far in this century, roughly 3,000 people have died in terrorist attacks in this country.
So far in this century, roughly 330,000 people have died in traffic accidents in this country.

On both a personal and National level, we have to get past this anger towards 9/11. It was a sad day, but it should not define this country's future. We'll only solve the real problems through rational thinking, and anger impedes rational thought.

www.teaparty07.com

Wow, showing so much fear! Afraid the people might learn the truth? or maybe afraid you don't really know what the truth is!

Why haven't these replies below been deleted? Aren't there any monderators here anymore?? Disgusting.

This is an interesting news story no doubt, but that's all it should've been - a news story. This should not have been an article up for debate as the replies below prove.

Be assured that if ANY of my words gets deleted, I will NEVER share my brilliance with you, the common ppl ;)

Enjoy it while it lasts.

Oh, BTW, Freedom of Speech -- ever heard of it? ;) Somewhat obscure principle... look it up.

Yeah and I have the freedom not to listen to your crap which I have to wade through to read the other stuff that isn't.

For some reason, seeing you were so "disgusted" by my sad truths of life, it's pretty obvious you read each and every of my word, and you'll continue to do so out of curiosity. Some of it will sink in, as it always does when I talk to anyone about anything...

You really are an megalomaniac fool to believe I read each and every word of what you wrote. And you have really spoiled this thread with your inane prejudiced sh!te.

Your absolutely right. Did anyone notice that this issue (NSA / Telco) was discussed on Bill Maher this weekend? I found it ironic that the in the middle of the discussion a crank in the audience disrupted the dialog and had to be forcibly removed.

Hate to be repetitive but you need to stop your rants, stop hijacking this post with your self serving nonsense. It is supposed to be about "The Issue Presented" not "Your Issues Presented".

Meglomainia - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Really Seek Help.

And about morality...

jeffhas: "No fortunately I have a life and I have to get back to it. What points are you trying to make? You say the NSA is above the law - yet you show now proof. That the USA uses torture - maybe, but that doesn't make it right or legal. We're the USA, we're supposed to be better than some third rate banana republic that can't hold it's country together without a barrel of a gun."

Neither you nor I can show CLEAR proof that the NSA is above or below the law. My point is that the NSA SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW (and I believe it IS) as long as its critical decisions are made by a POLITICALLY DIVERSIFIED (or A-politicl) body of high court judges and army generals. I don't trust the president nor congress to make those critical decisions. Neither of them need to know detailed things that the NSA must know to protect the country longterm.

And again, the use of torture, if proven effective in saving American lives, is fully justified. The use of WMD is also justified, just as IT WAS FULLY JUSTIFIED IN 1945. The only trick is (AGAIN) to know when exactly you can use it with the correct effect (subdue your enemy without bringing the entire world to an end). The next world war (whenever it happens) will prove this point. The US will be the first (AGAIN) to use WMD and will take it a step further & threaten "innocent" countries to become allies or suffer WMD wrath immediately. The US will further attack "innocent" bystanders (countries not interested in joining the conflict) if they do NOT become allies. It's either you are WITH US or YOU HURT/ENDANGER OUR LIVES. Now THAT'S gonna give your oh-so-sensitive moral watch a few lickin's...

I'll translate this obvious moral lesson into a story:
You are thrown into a big cage with a hungry tiger and you are promised that if you survive the next 48 hours you will be set free. You have a knife in your hand and you are a very strong man. There are ten weaker guys hiding inside a big cabinet in the corner of the cage, waiting for the tiger to eat you so he won't be hungry and leave them alone (for now). You (the strong guy) knock on the cabinet and inform them they must come out and help you fight the tiger or you will kill them one by one. They refuse. You pull one of them forcefully (and them being cowards, do nothing about it) and you kill him. The end of the story is irrelevant: whether they stayed cowards and got killed one by one, whether they joined you to fight the tiger, or whether they all joined the tiger/themselves and tried/successfully to kill you. The point is whether or not your killing of a weak guy was justified. It clearly IS JUSTIFIED BY ANY SANE DEFINITION OF MORALITY.

Now...
It's very naive to believe that anyone will "hold back" from using WMD forever, hence it's smarter to strategically plan ahead usage of WMD RIGHT NOW already (which I'm sure is getting done...)

Though I believe Albert Einstein was wrong. WW4 will not be fought with sticks and stones, simply because even if all WMD were employed in WW3, there will still be many many cities around the world left untouched which will become the new world centers. The world is a very big place...

And even if every single modern city was to be wiped, obviously the books in many many libraries will remain, will be discovered, re-read, and civilization will re-start just from where it "stopped" after a hundred year "hiccup". Human species progress cannot be stopped and in the absolute worst case will only be a few generations "in delay" from reaching whatever goal it is we're reaching without even knowing what it is (yet)...

Meglomainia - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Really Seek Help.

Hehehehehehehe highly intelligent ppl can actually pick up humor/sarcasm from an info feed.

Yes, I am superior in many regards to most people, provably by any standardized test you can think of, including the "test of life" AKA "the end result".

But no, I cannot really predict the future nor do I have total power nor want total power. I leave that to the NSA... ;)

My comments are irresistible to most people to read, just as I am irresistible to most of the fair sex (for many..many reasons that have nothing to do with this intellectual discussion)... You either believe it or not. Won't change facts...

Now we know why SBC\AT&T\Bellsouth has gotten such favorable treatment from the FCC, sound like they got a pass to swallow large chunks of the telecommunications industry to facilatate the NSA spy operation.

This system was in place at the time of 9/11 and other terrorist events, and didn't stop them.

It stopped numerous attempted terrorist attacks in the USA... You really don't think Bin Ladin just "gave up" in 2001...right?

And no, it will not prevent every single terrorist attack. That doesn't mean it's useless, just like a median on the highway doesn't prevent the occasional 4x4 to jump over the fence and still cause a mass accident. It's called "BEST EFFORT ATTEMPT".

Are you implying that Bin Laden is dead? Do you think our little excursion in Afghanistan actually worked?

The Bush administration, in their infinite wisdom, decided that it was inneficient to rely on the CIA to gather intel, pass it along to the DOD, and then let the DOD strike the target. Sounds good. So they took the CIA out of their element, and sent them into Afghanistan with orders to search and destroy. Just as the mission was about to succeed, the CIA and DOD got into a pissing match about who should get the glory for the kill. You see, human nature takes over. If Bin Laden is killed, someone's gonna write a book and brag about their hard work. So should Rumsfeld get the book deal? or maybe Tenet? Rumsfeld won the pissing match and this is when we all saw the military strike in Afghanistan on TV. Of course, by the time it all happened Bin Laden had escaped.

So you can feel comfortable in your delusion that our government efficiently protects us, but it simply isn't true. We are all human. Even when fighting terrorists, there will be pissing matches for the glory. This is why government must be smaller, to minimize this effect.

I do believe Bin Ladin is dead, or sufficiently incapacitated (physically or organizationally). Any group of terrorists who claim to be "Al Kaida" these days have absolutely no connection with Bin Ladin -- they just like the brand name...

What I was saying is that NSA's action have proven extremely effective in the last 6 years.

I don't think if Bin Ladin is dead we're ever gonna see the body, just like we're not gonna see bodies of hundreds of his people buried underground in the deathhole they dug for themselves in the caves of Tora Bora. A thermobaric bomb will do that to ya ;)

I'm not so sure about the illusion or "delusion" of being protected by our government and what it has to do with pissing matches for glory. It's VERY REAL that no 9-11 #2 has occured in the USA from 2002-2007... I call that a TRACK RECORD. It may not last forever, but it's a pretty damn good track record for a nation at war with suicidal, dirty-playing "terrorists"+nations.

I'm sorry, but you're officially an idiot. You believe everything Bush says. Even he's smart enough not to believe what he's saying, he's simply too arrogant to admit a mistake.

No major terrorist attack on US soil from 2002-2007, that's a TRACK RECORD????

How about no major terrorist attack on US soil from 1492-2000??? Is that a track record long enough for you?

They keep talking about foiled terrorist plots because they want to keep you scared and they want you to think they are using your tax dollars wisely. The fact is that after proper investigations are actually completed, there hasn't been a single conviction or arrest. They are all false. But that usually isn't concluded until months or years later when the media has forgotten. But wait, I'm sorry, we have a free press so you would have heard about that.

Hahahahahaha so you are saying the terrorists have simply given up on trying to attack. And you're calling ME the idiot. hahahahahahaha

Thank God that regardless of our little debate here, the NSA will continue doing what it's doing, this Klein guy will soon be forgotten, congress isn't gonna do CRAP about this "revelation", and we'll all continue living our merry life -- each with their own unique belief-set. ;)

Was this a debate? I'd call it a public flogging.

But seriously, the goodness left in this country is that we are each allowed to live our lives with different belief sets. You are right about that.

Before I go, if you're asking me whether or not terrorists have given up, I say this:

I don't personally know any terrorist currently planning an attack on the United States. Do you? (remember, your friends at the NSA are listening...)

ZING!!
I WIN

Yes I do know one and I feel I know him personally! He seems American/patriot but tries hard to convince everyone that the US must leave all foreign land, and tries to plant this seed in the minds of everyone he talks to that perhaps the terrorists weren't such bad evil people. He goes online by multiple nicks trying to make it seem as if his opinion is the majority's opinion (or an acceptable opinion). Maybe you know him, his online name is: montagp

hehehehehehehehe
ZING BLING
(who da winna' now! ;) ) hehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

What terrorists, Bush? Cheney? Citibank?

Ah, you shall be SOOO disappointed when the US goes to war with Iran under a Democrat president... Thank God it's gonna happen regardless of who is (or rather thinks they are) "in power".

May I introduce the subject entitled "May I?" For those of you that don't know about the "game" - well, "May I" was played this way, about 65 years ago. One child was designated "IT" meaning the child had to stand up against a tree with his or her back facing the line-up of kids waiting to play the game. The child on line would ask the "IT child" "May I take 2 Giant Steps" to which the "IT Child" would either say "YES you may, or NO, you may not." Generally, the "IT child always peeked" which was an early form of being "sneaky." That was 65 years ago - however, the kids never paid any attention to the "peeking." It was a game, a way of life. So, fast forward to today, and I for one (whether telephone/internet surveillance is constitutional or unconstitutional) don't care one bit if my internet browsing, email activity and telephone usage is monitored or not. I've got nothing to hide, and surely, the NSA and any cooperating telecommunications entity isn't keeping track of my usage of 4 letter curse words. Obviously this is all meant to target those among us in the USA and elsewhere that may have a violent agenda, leading towards a repeat of 9-11. In fact, I'd be first on line to agree to full ltime surveillance of my browsing, email and telephone usage. What's the big deal? The fact that the "cover was blown" well that uncovers a "secret plan" which again, I couldn't care less about, however, some people want everyhing in their lives to be private. Surely, looking back at my life, and my ZERO affiliation with terrorists, anarchists, evil doers, wierdos, and assorted dirt bags, not to forget about Low Lifes, and the occasional Scum-Bag, I've got nothing to worry about, so, listen in, if you want to listen in - I'll even make coffee. I have children and grandchildren that will hopefully survive me, when my time is up. I don't want my kin, my loved ones to ever again go through what we all experienced 6 years ago, so, while I'm making ends meet, budgetwise, I'll kick in $10.00 a year to help fund this type of surveillance. Seriously - I've got nothing to hide and speaking for myelf, it's comforting to know that my government has "got my back." Thank you for this opportunity to Comment and have a great weekend.

extremely well,

Thank you for your passion on this topic. The real core of many problems in American politics is apathy on the part of its citizens. The only way we can progress as a society is through open discussion and debate.

I think you are a little confused on the role of the NSA however.

"The National Security Agency/Central Security Service is America’s cryptologic organization. It coordinates, directs, and performs highly specialized activities to protect U.S. government information systems and produce foreign signals intelligence information. A high technology organization, NSA is on the frontiers of communications and data processing. It is also one of the most important centers of foreign language analysis and research within the government."

The NSA's role is analytical. Most NSA employees are mathematicians, linguists, scientists, etc. If you believe the NSA is murdering American citizens then you are more paranoid than myself.

As for the domestic spying, this country was founded upon Liberty. Citizens have certain unalienable rights and the Constitution was written to LIMIT government. The Founders were intelligent enough to see a large federal government trampling its citizens' rights if they did not strictly forbid it from happening.

It's not that the federal government is intentionally destroying us. They are doing what they think is right. Unfortunately, human nature is what it is. A large federal government trying to perform every security service imaginable for its citizens simply cannot work.

The Founders knew this and left for us the Constitution. The fact is the blame resides with us, the citizens, for failing to enforce the Constitution and control our government. We do have the power.

The reason domestic spying cannot be tolerated is quite simple. Who is to determine the purpose of the spying? Our government has been too scared since 9/11 and has used The War On Terror to justify everything. They have encouraged you to believe that Terrorists are evil people and they are out to get you. They have encouraged you to believe that we must give up Liberty to stop terrorism.

Fast forward 20 years. The plan worked. All terrorists are dead. Our country is secure. Who's next? Maybe the "moral elite" decides that we should spy on gays and secretly kill them, since homosexuality is a sin. Maybe the "political elite" are afraid of a Libertarian uprise and spy on outspoken individuals and kill them. Maybe the "corporate elite" use their connections to spy on their competition and gain unfair advantage in the marketplace.

Now, you are thinking these are far-fetched what-ifs and I'm a paranoid Liberal. You say that if the NSA grows too oppressive you will revolt. The problem is that you won't know it when it happens. These things happen slowly. Your revolt will start when they break down YOUR door or put a bullet in YOUR head.

When Social Security was first enacted, it was a "voluntary" program and carried many caveats. I'm sure opponents could foresee the future as our Capitalist society slowly errodes into Socialism, yet were reassured that they were being paranoid. Sixty years later and Social Security is out of control. It is not financially sound, has no long term viability, and has created generations of people dependent upon their government.

We have to remember why the Constitution was written. We have to take responsibility for our own lives and limit our government.

I'll address you points right away. ;)

No, I don't believe the NSA is murdering anyone. I do believe the NSA is KILLING Americans who are terrorists... The NSA is not just the science arm, it's also the executing arm. The CIA kills spies abroad, the NSA kills the bad apples in the homeland... Or perhaps they get the CIA to kill those Americans in the homeland -- regardless the NSA is the one to make the judgement which American must die/be tortured for protecting national security... BECAUSE they are so strong technologically, they KNOW which American needs to be "handled".

You somewhat nonchalantly make a big leap there from "all terrorists are dead" to "killing all gays". ;) That's where we differ. I'm afraid of REAL threats (terrorism) and not of fantastically fantastic threats ;) (all gays killed). I happen to actually believe that the NSA is comprised of real TRUSTWORTHY people with family and friends who may just happen to be GAY THEMSELVES! Now it isn't too hard to come to that conclusion since there's about 10% of gays in the population... Now even if the "gay-lovers/supports" in the NSA are subdued into killing gays, you really think the gays themselves, their family, gays around the world, won't fight back IMMEDIATELY? The world is not what it was pre-WWII. We know everything now IN AN INSTANT. We have REAL TIME pictures and movie clips to CONVINCE US AND MOVE OUR HEARTS when something really bad happens which will lead to something MUCH WORST to happen. Nothing is slow. Killing or disappearance of people will be detected by the media and the public in NO TIME. That's why I'm not afraid of abuse of power - because we really do have freedom of the press. Again, I will start fearing my governement ONLY when I feel I'm getting fed "censored" news, or that blogs/comments are removed without explanation or that I feel some people somehow stopped criticizing the government and all became complete patriots like myself. ;) As long as there are liberals around crying a lot about NOTHING, I'll feel safe.

How can the NSA 'handle' some Americans today, but they won't 'handle' other Americans later because we will recognize this then even though we aren't currently recognizing it today.

It's flawed logic.

In order for the logic to be flawed, you are basically saying that the NSA right now is killing/torturing innocent Americans. Nobody but YOU believes that, if that is the case...

I intended no distinction between murdering and killing. The NSA is not killing people. Neither is the CIA, again I think you are confused about their role in our government.

"As a separate agency, CIA serves as an independent source of analysis on topics of concern and also works closely with the other organizations in the Intelligence Community to ensure that the intelligence consumer—whether Washington policymaker or battlefield commander—receives the best intelligence possible."

The CIA is an Intelligence organization. They exist only to gather and disseminate information to those who need it.

Even I admit believing what I see in movies now and then, but the NSA and CIA are not killing people.

You are afraid of REAL threats you say... okay. Who is a real threat? Who decides? The United States has been supportive of the Saudi Arabian "government" for decades, because it ensures us cheap oil. The Saudi Arabian "government", i.e. the royal family, has squandered the money on itself and left its country and people in shambles. The United States protects the Saudis through military force every day. So what is a disenchanted Saudi citizen supposed to do? Live in poverty forever, or try and send a message that this is not acceptable?

Now, let me be clear, I DO NOT endorse terrorism.

But, just as in cases of domestic terrorism, there must always be a reason. Also, just as in domestic terrorism, the actual terrorists are few and far between and their success rate for attacks is incredibly low. But, unlike domestic terrorism, we don't understand the reasons behind international terrorists, and we don't want to. It is easier to think of them as different, evil people. We call them INSURGENTS, REGIMES, RADICALS, anything to make them sound inhuman.

The very real concern is that our very actions in fighting terrorism do and will continue to create more terrorists at an increasing rate. In fact, domestic spying will spawn new domestic terrorists and international "peace keeping" missions will continue to spawn new international terrorists.

As for your last point, we DO NOT have freedom of the press. I believe we are gaining that back through peer-to-peer exchange on the internet, but mass media does not fill that purpose anymore. Things happen all the time that you never get to read about. Anytime the government wants to pass new legislation to further encroach on our Liberty, they release a new terrorism alert. The media sensation ensues and the bill is passed. In many ways, I think our current system is more clever than the Nazi propaganda machine because I think it is almost autonomous. There isn't a conspiracy theory running it all, just human nature and misguided intentions.

Innocent or not, Americans or not, our country is killing and torturing people. We are not barbarians. We don't do this. I have to now agree with 9999, either you are a 14 year old playing around or you really are a moron. Truly seek help, dial up your meds. You are making a fool of yourself.

Wait, so if the CIA isn't killing people overseas, are you saying no spies abroad get killed? What, they just let them stay alive causing damage to the country? Do they send the military to kill some civilian in a foreign country? But regardless of the answer, some individuals MUST DIE, both in the USA and abroad. Who pulls the trigger -- doesn't matter. As long as it gets done. Though it's probably a higher priority for the intel community to kidnap the guy and torture him not as punishment, but to save more lives in the future...

And yes, terrorists feel their actions are fully justified, I fully realize that. The answer is USUALLY not to cater to their demands (even if semi-rational) but to do whatever is in the best interests of the nation. If cheap oil is more important than a few thousands lives lost every few years due to terrorism, then that's what gonna happen. As individuals we have near ZERO power to change that anyway. The only time public opinion changes radically, is, ironically enough, when terrorists attack. At that point you either GIVE UP a little (negotiate with terrorists if you deep down feel they have SOME justification), or fight back harder, depending on how expensive (lives+money) you think either option would cost.

I personally don't believe that fighting back harder is gonna spawn new wave of terrorists who wouldn't act violently regardless. You'll give in a bit to their demands, and guess what, the terrorism will INCREASE because it'll prove effective. The smarter way to go about it is to pour more money into the countries where terrorists are born, so that you give them a REASON TO LIVE and you give their community a REASON TO POLICE ITSELF -- to maintain their "good-enough" life. Basically what I'm saying is to make countries filled with terrorists the puppets of the USA, just like Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, etc...

No... I'm following your logic as spelled out in your own words above... but I'm pretty tired of this, I can see what you are now, and debating lunacy or paranoia is pointless.

Bye.

You meant to say our country is NOT killing and torturing people. Well, neither of us know the answer for certain, but I tend to believe we DO kill and torture, as difficult as it may be for your oh-so-sensitive-ears to hear.

If killing/torturing suspect-terrorist is proven to save hundreds of lives, I'm pretty sure it gets done.

Great vigilante justice... just what a civilized society needs.

So much for the Constitution.

You're unravelling right before our eyes.

You've finally made some intelligent statements, though I don't think you even realize it because your reasoning is still flawed.

Public opinion does change radically after terrorist attacks. However, NOT because public opinion naturally changes after terrorist attacks. Because EMOTIONS are heightened and our government USED that to change public opinion. We are the puppets of our government.

"The smarter way to go about it is to pour more money into the countries where terrorists are born, so that you give them a REASON TO LIVE and you give their community a REASON TO POLICE ITSELF"

You are actually correct here. The only way to win is to withdraw our troops from the rest of the world and lift economic sanctions. We need to INCREASE TRADE with "evil" nations, not isolate them. Of course, your rational of making them puppets is a bit off. Through increased economic trade we both become puppets of each other. That is supply and demand both need each other.

Think of Japan. Do you think we would dare attack Japan today? Do you think Japan would dare attack us? It doesn't make any economic sense and our countries would both be ruined. That doesn't mean there aren't Japanese people who dislike us, but the country polices itself. Just as you said. You were correct, I simply needed to rearrange your logic for you. You're welcome.

No, you didn't follow my logic. I explained my logic in plenty words.

You clearly cannot debate my points rationally, so you give up and simply call it paranoia or lunatic. Why? Because I actually believe what everyone tries to push under the carpet: the USA uses torture. Try googling: turture guantanamo bay
for a little hint...

A civilized society that wants to exist must behave uncivilized towards those aiming to destroy IT AS A WHOLE. We're not talking a two-bit murderer, or even a psychopath mass murderer who can kill max 100 ppl. We are talking about WAR with tens of thousands of casualties for a really "successful" attack.

No, don't change what I've said. The solution is not to pull troops but to increase policing in any country that cannot police itself, then give them a chance to prove they can stand on their own two feet (you mentioned Japan), and if fails to do so (Iraq, Afghanistan..), continue military support (troops) for a few more years...

My point which you're trying to "rearrange" is this: you don't let terrorists feel they've won. EVER. Even if you DO pull some troops back it's only after the US gets a guarantee that the place they've pulled out of will be clear of terrorist-hotbeds FOREVER (well, next 50 years).

You definitely don't pull out of Afghanistan and let the Taliban take back control... Even if the US "leaves" some posts, the terrorists must feel they've gotten A LONGER US ARM GRABBING THEIR BA||S than before. It's just gonna be a puppet state caressing them, not the US directly. That's all.

And that, obviously, will teach them (and everyone else watching --which is more important) not to mess with the US.

It's your hot-headed attitude that is shared by Cheney and Bush, and has caused our current nightmare.

"you don't let terrorists feel they've won. EVER."

First, the "terrorists" are winning now. They got really lucky on 9/11, but the real win is that we are bankrupting our economy and trampling our Civil Liberties to chase them around the globe. Even another 10 attacks like 9/11 wouldn't destroy this country. Our war on terror just might destroy us though.

Second, I don't care at all, not one bit, if Usama Bin Laden feels like he has won. Eventually, he will die and those feelings die with him. Usama's feelings of victory will not cause others to take up arms against the United States, unless of course there are still problems worth dying for. If that is the case, then they would not care either way if Usama won or lost. You're applying Kindergarten logic to life and death scenarios, and it doesn't work.

I am saddened that your vote counts equally with mine, though you are likely too young to vote based on your arguments. If so, I suggest you talk to your friends more often. Most young people are smart enough to understand this stuff, which is why Ron Paul has become so wildly popular with young people. If you are in fact older, then I suggest you read more often. Stop swallowing every sound bite you hear on CNN.

RON PAUL 2008
RESTORE AMERICA

No I meant exactly what I wrote. It is apparent to anyone who objectively looks at the facts, not the fantasy, that we are in fact torturing people. The Rendition Program was in fact enacted by the Clinton administration and then greatly expanded by Bush. We (our government) routinely kidnap people and send them to friendly foreign countries where they are tortured to extract information. The work is done by our surrogates so United States and international law can be circumvented. Check your facts. You are just flat out wrong. "We Us our Country" is responsible for this. This is a disgusting affront to every American soldier who fought for his country's ideals. It spits in the face of what we believe this country should be and if Bush and his ilk have their way, will never be again.

If a criminal ordered someone to kidnap and torture a person to get some information and was caught he would go to prison right?... even if he kidnapped and tortured another criminal right? What really is the difference?

What nightmare? A few thousands die to protect a few hundred millions? I call it sad but necessary.

The Great Depression didn't destroy this nation, the cold war..., so you think a little war against a few hundred terrorists is gonna destroy it?

If necessary we will all live in a smaller house, driving an older car, work a few more hours a week and earn a little less. That's not gonna destory us...and it doesn't even seem "necessary" at this point either. We Americans are too spoiled anyway...

I also don't care what one incapacitated terrorist Usama thinks, I do care about his "silent cells" in the USA and what THEY think... I do care about terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq endangering the lives of American soldiers and what THEY think.

All terrorists are one and the same as far as I'm concerned. They either WANT TO ATTACK or REALIZE ITS NOT WORTH THE PRICE. That's all.

As far as votes - I already mentioned in another post that I, too, regret the fact all votes are treated equally. The more PUBLIC SERVICE you demonstrate especially risking your life (Police, Army) should give you double-triple vote. The higher educated you are, the more votes you should get. The more taxes you pay, the more votes you should have. You wanna have your vote count? No problem - go risk your life. Any man/woman born is given that chance. You don't care enough? Then don't, and let the people who REALLY CARE about the PUBLIC take CARE of the public's interest...

OK so now I understand. You agree with me torture is used but you feel disgusted it's being used.

We don't have anything further to discuss since neither of us has exact data over the effectiveness of torture in SAVING LIVES.

If a criminal ordered someone to kidnap and torture another criminal, he should go to jail, yes, (after being tortured himself -- to make sure other criminals are discouraged from doing the same themselves). Unless by torturing that other criminal he has saved the lives of his own family, his own life, or anyone else's life, in which case he shouldn't be put in jail or touched at all. He should receive prosecution immunity.

If you have a moral problem with that, I suggest reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/..._v._Dudley_and_Stephens

and pay close attention to the closing:
"Dudley and Stephens were found guilty and sentenced to death, which was later commuted to six months' imprisonment by Queen Victoria under the Royal Prerogative."

That, essentially means, that what they did was not the wrong thing to do... most people in their place would do the same thing and you CANNOT tell me it would have been "better" for everyone to die.

No No No Wrong is wrong. Maybe you just watched to many episodes of 24. Doing the wrong thing, is the wrong thing, because its the wrong thing. It doesnt suddenly become the right thing because it saves lives or for any other collateral consequence whatsoever. If we become barbarians to fight barbarians then the barbarians win. We as a country our ideal was better than that, then along came Bush. I am not alone in feeling this way. Many people in this country hate this guy enough to qualify for French citizenship! Make no mistake I am not a pacifist. If some attacks my country I am all for fighting back. I am all for defending ourselves but I still believe in the old fashioned concept of right and wrong. Torturing someone, anyone is wrong no matter what. The only person that would not understand this is a psychopathic personality, someone without the ability to discern between right and wrong. Have to go now, I actually have a life.

Jack

The only person who would rather see a whole US city wiped off the planet than see an American terrorist tortured, is...well...LUCKILY not a person with any power to make that decision. ;)

Luckily, too, people with sufficient intelligence and TRUE MORAL VALUES who happen to be in unfortunate circumstances that challenge their morality (say wartime), will do THE RIGHT THING and will PERSONALLY torture someone (even if against "any and all law") if they honestly believe the info they get from that person will save THEM or their COMRADES.

This is simply natural behavior. You don't need to ENJOY torturing someone just as you don't enjoy cutting off someone's arm when you're trying to save their LIFE. It's just something that STRONG MORAL PEOPLE are capable of doing and weak evolutionary-challenged individuals cannot handle. ;)

Go ahead and die so a terrorist/enemy-soldier isn't inconvenienced... ;) I'll take the other option whenever possible.

No point in continuing a rational conversation with an amoral irrational person. Please please don't breed.

No fortunately I have a life and I have to get back to it. What points are you trying to make? You say the NSA is above the law - yet you show now proof. That the USA uses torture - maybe, but that doesn't make it right or legal. We're the USA, we're supposed to be better than some third rate banana republic that can't hold it's country together without a barrel of a gun.

Neither you nor I can show CLEAR proof that the NSA is above or below the law. My point is that the NSA SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW (and I believe it IS) as long as its critical decisions are made by a POLITICALLY DIVERSIFIED (or A-politicl) body of high court judges and army generals. I don't trust the president nor congress to make those critical decisions. Neither of them need to know detailed things that the NSA must know to protect the country longterm.

And again, the use of torture, if proven effective in saving American lives, is fully justified. The use of WMD is also justified, just as IT WAS FULLY JUSTIFIED IN 1945. The only trick is (AGAIN) to know when exactly you can use it with the correct effect (subdue your enemy without bringing the entire world to an end). The next world war (whenever it happens) will prove this point. The US will be the first (AGAIN) to use WMD and will take it a step further & threaten "innocent" countries to become allies or suffer WMD wrath immediately. The US will further attack "innocent" bystanders (countries not interested in joining the conflict) if they do NOT become allies. It's either you are WITH US or YOU HURT/ENDANGER OUR LIVES. Now THAT'S gonna give your oh-so-sensitive moral watch a few lickin's...

I'll translate this obvious moral lesson into a story:
You are thrown into a big cage with a hungry tiger and you are promised that if you survive the next 48 hours you will be set free. You have a knife in your hand and you are a very strong man. There are ten weaker guys hiding inside a big cabinet in the corner of the cage, waiting for the tiger to eat you so he won't be hungry and leave them alone (for now). You (the strong guy) knock on the cabinet and inform them they must come out and help you fight the tiger or you will kill them one by one. They refuse. You pull one of them forcefully (and them being cowards, do nothing about it) and you kill him. The end of the story is irrelevant: whether they stayed cowards and got killed one by one, whether they joined you to fight the tiger, or whether they all joined the tiger/themselves and tried/successfully to kill you. The point is whether or not your killing of a weak guy was justified. It clearly IS JUSTIFIED BY ANY SANE DEFINITION OF MORALITY.

Now...
It's very naive to believe that anyone will "hold back" from using WMD forever, hence it's smarter to strategically plan ahead usage of WMD RIGHT NOW already (which I'm sure is getting done...)

Though I believe Albert Einstein was wrong. WW4 will not be fought with sticks and stones, simply because even if all WMD were employed in WW3, there will still be many many cities around the world left untouched which will become the new world centers. The world is a very big place...

My morality is superior to yours, since judging by the effect, my moral mirrors nature's and God's morals -- to remain the one in power at all costs, because GOOD must overcome EVIL even if GOOD must BECOME MORE EVIL THAN EVIL temporarily.

Only conventional-thinking, common, unimaginative, blind people like yourself cover themselves with a blanket of morality made of air, soon to prove its effectiveness (or rather -- lack thereof)...

Thank GOD thinking MORAL people, those IN POWER, are smarter than you.

You still don't get it. I am smarter than you. I baited you into exposing yourself to everyone on this site as to what a crank whack job you are.

I'm also more powerful than you... I got you to do what I wanted.

And I have to tell you, that I am truly sorry for what I did to you. After reading you posts, I know that your not in a mental state to accept this right now but I hope for the best for you and your probably very worried family. I thought you were an amoral idiot. What I realize now is that you are a severely psychologically damaged manic individual who is in serious need of some help. Check out www.bipolarworld.com and seriously look at the symptoms, they have resources for people like you. You appear to be in a very manic state. I wish you well.

Yes, I see. You are also so much more original than me, that after I was the first one to demonstrate my superiority and solidify it by using the words SUPERIOR THAN YOU all of a sudden you are "SMARTER" "MORE POWERFUL", things we haven't heard in any of your posts UNTIL I BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THE SAD TRUTH I AM MORALLY SUPERIOR.

It's all right, deep down we both know the truth: the US monitors its citizens, uses torture BECAUSE it is the right thing to do under certain circumstances, the US as the most moral country in the world USED WMD and will USE THEM AGAIN WHEN NECESSARY WITH NO HESITATION...and of course, that the US is going to attack Iran sometime in the next few years while the homeland security is boosted with the use of secure tracking of human movement in some manner or another (and easiest way - mandate that all adults carry a GPS&P2P-enabled cellphone with them 24/7). P2P for the purpose of relaying a message to a group of tens of thousands of cellphones in a radius of few street blocks -- no cell tower can handle that without p2p employed. Now the phone-carrying mandate shall have multiple purposes including warning you of an attack, tracking you, DEMANDING your assistance if you are in a deadly area where your life is automatically worth less than the lives of multiple people you may be able to save, etc etc. You will NOT be able to legally escape danger if people are yelling for help and you can risk your life to help them. This is FORCED HEROISM. Absolute morality and total control will come upon us, and it will be a GOOD DAY, because what can we do, people of inferior intellect as yourself are unable to comprehend the basic notion that your individual life is worth NOTHING compared to the life of any group of multiple individuals. In military law this is called: forcefully enlisting you to service (war)...

If cellphone tracking won't suffice, the citizens shall be forced to undergo operations where an RFID chip will be implanted inside their skull or heart, in a self-destructible encasing. You try to remove it, you die of poisoning... You will not be able to be a spy or a successful terrorist in such a community...

Anyway, it's pointless to argue with you for you will not comprehend this right now. But as you read my words in coming years you will immediately recognize my SUPERIOR brilliance and UNBELIEVABLY accurate predictions. I am, in fact, almost never wrong.

Thank you once again for illustrating my point. Perhaps these definitions will help you to finally see it.

Meglomainia - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Really Seek Help.

Its not flawed logic its manically skewed logic.
This guy is obviously ill, read his exchanges with others and decide for yourself. BTW I hope you are right about Ron Paul, he really is the best person running.

FYI

Megalomania - Megalomania is an unrealistic belief in one's superiority, grandiose abilities, and even omnipotence. It is characterized by a need for total power and control over others, and is marked by a lack of empathy for anything that is perceived as not feeding the self.

Manic: Refers to a mood disorder in which a person seems "high", euphoric, expansive, sometimes agitated, hyperexcitable, with flights of ideas and speech.

Check our friends posts out against these definitions. He doesnt need an audience he need lithium.

Thank God the world of business and nature (survival of fittest) doesn't need to be phased one mm by your definitions, which may very accurately describe every successful PERSON ever known in history, except, of course, for the one little word "unrealistic".

Those humans of great power did, in fact, prove their superiority over all/mostly-all of their human being brothers...

Hehehehehehe

You HONESTLY believe I'm not fully aware of my human limitations, which are, admittedly, far above 99% of anyone else's?

You gotta take this medium at face value. I actually don't REALLY believe anything I hear and only half of what I say... ;)

But I'm having fun!

FYI I've been the CEO of 4 major companies. How about you pipsqueak?
You still refuse to address one simple fact in your responses/ rants. You talk about how smart you are, you even talk about your sexual attractiveness, however I notice you never confront the one thing I consistently write to you. Have you ever been diagnosed as bipolar or manic? You are ill. You need to seek Help.

Just Jack, thanks for supporting Ron Paul. I am sincerely dismayed about the state of our nation, and I think most Americans are as well. We are on a dark path, but a bright and prosperous future is just around the corner... all we need to do is want it.

JOIN THE REVOLUTION MY FRIENDS

www.teaparty07.com

RON PAUL 2008

www.ronpaul2008.com

Piggy Palace Pod Vod TV.

Watch international online television, webcasts, podcasts and vodcasts. Listen to satelite radio. Buy movies, books, games, software and gifts from online store. ABC News, Elle Magazine, Car and Driver, Road and Track, Billboard magazine online.

www.Goodtimessociety.net

I have a right to free speech, guaranteed in the Constitution's Bill of Rights. Years ago, the government entered into secret agreements with telecommunications companies, then began to monitor my emails (and probably phone calls)without my knowledge or consent. It tracks my messages and knows when, and from where, each was sent. I don't mind because I am not a terrorist, right?
I also have a right to own firearms, guaranteed by the Constitution's Bill of Rights. Years ago, the government entered into secret agreements with firearms makers. Since then, heat and impact resistant microchips have been integrated into the stocks or butts of every firearm legally manufactured in or imported into this country. I am a law-abiding citizen. So all of my guns were legally manufactured or imported. The government therefore has monitored every one of my gun purchases and trades without my consent. It tracks all of my firearms by GPS satellite, and knows where each one is located, 24/7. Secret government installations continually download the info off the satellites and then mine the data. There are millions of rifles and countless handguns in this country so the government couldn't possibly sift through the tracking data it mines on all of them. Of course, I don't mind because I am not a terrorist, right?

That's right. You shouldn't care. Did they use any of the mined info to hurt yourself or your family/friends, or any of your friend's family/friends? Or your friend's friend's family/friends? No. Thus - the info is being used for GOOD purposes - solving/preventing crimes/terrorism.

...as far you know. Remember, NSA is super-duper secret, they can kill terrorists or 'handle' certain Americans, and we can't/won't see it happening... so maybe perfectly good citizens are being hurt by this now. Of course we'll never know, because no citizen will be able to have a date in court to reveal any of this.

If there is nothing to fear, then why not let the cases progress?

I don't think the NSA can kill terrorists without the terrorist's family knowing about it...or their operators... Unless you are saying they're randomly killing people...

In other words you are saying that we'll all believe the suspect-terrorist died of a car accident when in fact he was killed by the NSA, and NOBODY would suspect foulplay, and nobody in the NSA will care to stop killing innocent ppl? How many such cases you think can go undetected?

A few mistakes a year? No problem. I'd rather see one dead victim than 5,000 dead victims (if the program of killing suspect-terrorists is stopped...if there is such a program)...

What about the 3800+ soldiers killed, the 40,000 wounded?... the 60,000-300,000 Iraqis killed (depending on who's numbers you believe)

OK with all of th at to save the 3,000?

I thought you just explained the needs of the many outweigh the few?

Flawed logic once again.... you are getting revealed.

Yep, I'm fine with it. First of all, an Iraqi life is worth much less than an American life. If you feel that is "just not right" you are hereby requested to sell all your possessions and join the Chinese communist republic... Oh wait, now you do suddenly believe YOUR OWN PERSONAL LIFE is worth more than a poor Chinese or even a poor African starving boy... Spare me the pseudo-moralicism...

The war in Iraq has saved millions of people for the next 100 years. Likewise the soon-to-be war with Iran.

The only terrorist group operating in the United States today is the Bush Family. From the Nazi Prescott Bush to the Al Quada leader GW Bush. The Bin Laden Family and the Bush Family are on good terms.

FYI- I have first hand knowledge that the Government has super computers that record and store every land-line, and cell conversation ever made in the world. They can research any person's number and re-play any conversation they have had since the inception on the technology. To which I do not have the date. Not giving my opinion on this subject, just stating the fact. By the way, same goes anything you do or purchase on the web.

I understand that is the case however, they do not have the ability to sift through all those communications in any reasonably efficient way. Hence the need to do the data mining. That is, organizing it so that, following authorized protocols, they can go to the specific communication they seek. So, unless you have been calling Osama in Pakistan, no one is interested in whether you call your grandmother in Dubuque or business partner in Abu Dhabi. Don't let your paranoia get the better of you. When we see that the government has been abusing our trust then we can do something about it. So far, I have not seen anyone complain about being unlawfully tapped.

You mirror my feelings. Those liberals fear the "possibility" or "potential" of abuse, though they have no proof of any law abiding American actually getting HURT (physically/financially/etc) by being monitored. Yeah, the potential for abuse is there, just like a cop with a gun can kill you and later claim you resisted arrest. For some unknown good reason I tend to feel that anything the NSA does (as in the QUERIES they run, and actually their entire day-to-day operation) is heavily logged. If a bank has a camera on top of its own employees to make sure no money gets stolen, you can bet your pants the NSA most likely logs every single keyboard press by all its employees, every query, and every little job task is videotaped. The very top employees probably KNOWINGLY have no privacy in their own homes either. Back to my cop scenario - the cop will not be able to kill you and get away with it if he knows he must, by law, carry a videocam documenting his entire workday...

There is a legitimate argument for prohibiting listening in on private conversations without court approval. But it doesn't seem the government has been doing that. It appears they have been data mining, a term used for essentially indexing and collating information. In this case, communications between phone numbers or e-mail addresses. No conversations were actually tapped. I see nothing inherantly wrong with this practice. But I also find it ironic that the people who decrie this practice coincidentally hate George W. Bush. Would they be just as animated if their favorite politician was in office? I think not. But we may have an opportunity to see if these leftists continue to howl if a Democrat is elected, which seems to be somewhat likely.

The NSA is above the president and congress's reach. There are too many corrupted politicians to give the president/congress access to the NSA's internal world. Thus it's most likely built upon the people who all human beings universally believe blind-foldedly -- army generals (who risked their OWN LIFE for the decisions they make) and high ranking judges (who shape our life - supreme court cases etc).

The American people have exactly two choices: 1. Trust the NSA. 2. Go to another civil war.

If a large proportion of the population REALLY stops trusting the NSA, a civil war will be the natural outcome. It's not gonna happen...

What's more likely to happen is that more bad apples (American spies/terrorists) will be discovered and proven to have caused great damage to the country, at which point most Americans will give MORE trust to the NSA to do whatever the hell they need to do to get rid of as many bad apples as possible...

I see no legitimate argument for recording personal information without a warrant. That is what FISA was set up to do - an extra layer of protection for the citizenry. It's funny to me that you feel so secure while a Republican is in office - be careful of the laws you create - if/when a Democrat gets in, the same laws will now apply to them. Somehow I have a feeling you're not too comfortable with Hillary performing this same surveillance technique.... but I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on that.

By the way - I made sure my Democratic Senator knew I was unhappy that they might vote to give the telecoms immunity, and I've never written a politician in my life. I will absolutely howl if a Democrat (or Republican) doesn't put a stop to this program and many other rights-trampling programs born out of fear-mongering. I don't know about you, but I've got lots of great things going on in my life, and I'm not going to sit around wasting all the beautiful days living in fear that 'them terrorists' will come and get me. The chances of dying in an Automobile or slipping in my bathtub are far greater. That's not to say Terrorists shouldn't be stopped, but that why we have terrific law enforcement officials and agencies (that taxes pay for by the way!). They are quite good at preventing most criminal behavior.... They are true heroes every day.

Good Luck!

What are you TALKING about? The president and congress have absolutely NOTHING to say to the NSA. The NSA does NOT go and ask congress/president "hey, should we tap this American citizen, please..pretty please?". And they will not take "special spying requests" from any president or congressmen.

The NSA does not report to congress nor the president. They report to themselves ONLY. Who watches over them? Nobody except, perhaps, the Supreme Court and the top Army Generals. But those are an integral part of the NSA anyway most likely...

What planet are you from?... The NSA is funded by Congress. The NSA director reports to the Secretary of Defense and the National Intelligence Director both of whom are appointed by the President of the Unites States - I'm not sure with NSA you're talking about.

You have a serious misunderstanding as to how information/power segregation occurs in government. The fact a president appoints someone to Supreme Court does not mean that Judge will vote based on that president's feeling (nor will they be in constant communication - that's abuse of power). Likewise, the NSA NEVER says ANYTHING (of substance) to congress nor the president. Neither of them are trustworthy enough with national security issues most of the time... They'll clue the pres in as to what's going on (without divulging much detail), but they will NOT ask for his "approval" on any action. If the country needs to go to war, the NSA will explain why to congress/pres. They will not answer any questions by any pres/congress if the answer damages national security (since a pres or congressman can cause damage to national security by simply being a stupid naive liberal who will turn around and leak the sensitive info thinking he's doing the country "a favor", just like this Mark Klein)... The NSA is above the known law. They operate in the void.

So your saying that the NSA is a law onto itself. Above the President, About the Congress, Above the Constitution. You are really saying this? Seriously?

Yep, that's my belief. They can kill an American if they need to. They will torture him if they must have his intel. No "constitutional right" of "speedy trial" (or any trial). You do understand that "license to kill" was not just a movie, but the modus operandi of all nations' intelligence bureaus...

Yeah, somehow I doubt Rumsfeld and Cheney were good with not knowing any of this stuff.

So let me get this straight... Bush just appoints people who have a tenure that ends with his term (that's the difference with the Supreme Court - Lifetime Appointment = independence) ... and knows nothing - he further only takes direct action after he's been told to by the NSA.

Hmmm.... and you're calling us paranoid?

That is correct. Any person with a limited number of years in power (any power) has LITTLE power when it comes to national security. The president will not know the identity of the people he's discussing, will never know the exact ways the information he's GIVEN was collected, etc. It's on exclusive "need to know basis" - both for the pres and congress, as well as internally. Just like the military...

... and I thought I was cynical.

If this were true, the Constitution we abide by, that so many have fought and died for over the years has no value - as there is an 'Elite Squad' of overlords that really make decisions and shape policy.

How does this reconcile with your comments that 'someone' at NSA 'videotapes' or 'records keystrokes' will make certain our liberties are not violated in any manner against the law?

I prefer to think that we're all just a bunch of human beings, and sure there are career bureaucrats that serve, but we all have families and personal foibles we all share the human element, we put our pants on one-leg-at-a-time, and so 30 years as the 'careerist-decision-maker-of-everyone's-security' just doesn't really jive with what human's do in relation to each other. There might be a few socially defunct people that could take a lifetime of that kind of career - but then, as socially defunct, they'd flunk the entrance exams.

Sounds all too conspiratorial to me. Good Luck with that.

You are a moron, where are you getting any of this? You're just making this stuff up as you go, like this: "The American people have exactly two choices: 1. Trust the NSA. 2. Go to another civil war." OH REALLY? because that was what caused the first civil war right? And according to your reasoning the people in communist USSR or China or Saddams Iraq, must have trusted their secret police, since they didnt go to a civil war right? You sound like your a 14 year old redneck with your constant "stupid liberal" comments.

The constitution has great value, for the normal day-to-day life. When the NSA kills someone (or manipulate reality), I look at it as if it was divine intervention -- something we have no control over and we put full trust into. We live our lives and simply not worry about what the NSA "will do to us", because we NEED THEM to KNOW EVERYTHING AND HAVE ABSOLUTE POWER. That is the ONLY way they can effectively do their job.

As for the NSA logging their own activities - yes it's probably a mandatory policy so they protect themselves from themselves, and to the validate their morality to the outside world (in 100-200 yrs etc). Similar to old presidents recording their own phone conversations to protect themselves and CIA files getting released after X years...

And no, I don't know exactly what the NSA does or doesn't do. All I know is that I trust my instincts and intelligence, and allow to be told lies (without looking further) if the intention in my mind is GOOD.

The people in China/Iraq/USSR did not go into a civil war because they LOST ANY REAL CHANCE TO FIGHT BACK WAYYY BEFORE they realized their liberty was at stake. What was valid dozens or hundreds of years ago has no relevance today.

The world is slightly different now. You cannot start abusing your power without getting caught in 90% of the cases... You cannot "surprise" anyone with military force. You cannot even THINK about conquering another land without high risk of going into a world war where you have a very high chance of losing it all.

Psychic too.

Been accused of reading minds before, yes. ;)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the monitoring, as every country does that. This looks like a scene out of Mission Impossible.

so happy to know you're a fan of big brother.
not seeing the harm/risk/danger in a government who monitors you is nothing short of remarkable.
ignorance is bliss.
and it serves big brother well.
very well.
carry on.

Big Brother who monitors himself as he monitors you, is about the safest you can ever get. Why would he want to monitor himself? Cuz the people have guns and have the most powerful impossible-to-take-away weapon -- the internet. If the NSA started hurting "innocent people" - the stories will come out, and if they are TRUE, people will believe them, and eventually the army, which is a separate entity from the NSA (and is comprised of REAL people CARING FOR THEIR FAMILIES), will take over the government for the explicit purpose of dismantling the NSA.

Now YOU go ahead and carry on with your unsubstantiated paranoia... You, unlike myself, don't even believe your own words. If you thought the danger was "imminent", you'd be asking for use of force to "calm the NSA down". See, even after a Democrat will be in power, you will continue your whining but will never actually ACT on them, simply because you know deep inside, that nobody really fears the NSA to do anything to them...

ignorance is bliss

It is, yours. ;)

Yeah and im sure thats the reason why the people in Saddams Iraq never rebelled against him, or the people in communist Russia never rebelled, because they had so much trust that the secret police were on their side.

No, they were just weak/cowards/uninformed... Neither of it applies to heavily armed Americans as citizens...

This is nothing new. For a comprehensive list of most of the companies involved in maintaining control over the military-industrial complex, just read the ipv4 address space assignments as they were first handed out. There is a reason why the Internet is "free" and strongly supported by the government.
http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space

Better hurry. As time goes on, many of the names on this list get hidden under obscure labels. For instance, address blocks 004/8 and 008/8 belong to Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., but now are listed as "Level 3 Communications Inc." The Joint Technical Command (blocks 049/8 and 050/8) are now "IANA - Reserved."

Bravo to ATT.

Who cares if the government is listening in my conversation, internet traffic? My stuff is so mundane that it would take limitless resources to really look at what I am saying. Are you involved in terrorist or illegal activities? Then why care.

If it would save a life, why not? Liberals historically are more interested in bending the rules to save a fish than save a human life. They will protest about how a border fence might impact a bat, but they won't protest a self seeker's (Klein's) glory to compromise our safety.

Who cares?! Are you insane?

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." Benjamin Franklin

It seems ok now.. Have you ever seen V for Vendetta?

You make find it interesting

If some NSA employee goes over your credit card purchases, or a list of websites you visited, how exactly was your freedom to purchase "sex toys" and secretely visit gay dating websites limited? You think they're gonna go tell your wife about it? Is THAT the fear you liberals have?

You'd think with the Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, Larry Craig trifecta, that you'd figure out Democrats are not REPRESSED about their sexuality... You Republicans are.

... and we won't live in fear - not even when you sabre rattle about 'them terrorists'. We like to enjoy every single beautiful day God (or any other higher power - or even mother nature) gives us. You can go hide in your bunker living in fear of 'Islamofascists', but I've got people to see and places to go!

I don't hide in a bunker nor do I live in fear. I trust my government right now. If that changes, my opinion will change... And if the day ever comes that I'll be afraid for my life from my government/police, you can be sure I'll leave to a different country. I, unlike you, am more fearful of PROVABLE DANGER (terrorist) than UNPROVEN THEORETICAL danger (we lose all our freedoms and become a dictatorship country)... Yah right.

PROVABLE DANGER.

'Saddam has Weapons of Mass Destruction".... "We cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud"... "We will be greeted with candy and flowers"... "Mission Accomplished"

Apparently Proof is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm glad you trust this administration.... but those statements (and there are hundreds more) above were wrong... That's the only Real Proof obtained so far.

It's fine by me. Perhaps the NSA lied to the president, used him, to get into Iraq and create a massive intelligence gathering post in the middle east. Who knows... They do what they gotta do and I don't CARE if they lie to the president or congress. AGAIN, if the NSA is comprised of high ranking military personel AND ALSO high ranking judges -- I take their word on what needs to happen ANY DAY over some retarded alcoholic president (who I voted for!) or big-business-influenced congress... There is a good reason why the jury system is just a "fata morgana". It's the ILLUSION of "get judged by your peers", same illusion as "vote someone into office". It's all a game -- you don't do anything as a juror but waste your time (and feel good about yourself) because the case can be appealed a dozen times until JUDGES WHO ARE SMARTER THAN A STUPID JUROR get the FINAL SAY.

... and you aren't even concerned with who 'They' are... what their motives are. They use there power for good and not evil. It sounds like a Super Hero Justice League - or some other Comic Book.

The ends justify the means. History is littered with leaders who felt they were justified in what they were doing (Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Saddam). Democracy is the only viable government I want to live in - you're talking about something completely different.

I'm talking about a super democracy inside a democracy. In other words, I'll take the democratic vote of high IQ, provably moral individuals (judges, army generals), over the vote of all people of the country -- 100% of the time. This is what I believe/hope the NSA works like when it comes to touchy issues (who are we killing/kidnapping/torturing today..)

I just finished reading the smug short sighted comments of many of the posters. Between the apologists for governments illegal usurpation of our privacy and other constitutional right, and the level of ignorance to the future consequence of these actions, I am reminded of Churchill's statement that the best argument against democracy was a 5 minute conversation with the average voter. Many of the comments from these folk would have been right at home in late 1930's Germany.

I have to wonder what type of world will be forged as a result of this folly? Imagine, a future where aspiring prosecutors and cops not only think it OK to invade anyone's privacy at will with no accountability, but as a bonus consider torture a technicality. And, have legal president to do so. Your children will reap what you sow...

Now the only thing left for me to do here is await for the next government apologist posters ad hominem attack. Of course they will probably first have to look up the definition of ad hominem in order to figure out what that is.

Jack

News Flash I am not a liberal. Nor am I a conservative. I have my own mind and I don't need a label to tell me what to think.

I do however, find it interesting how the ignorant attempt to marginalize an opposing opinion by putting what they think is a negative label on them, instead of confronting their argument. Could it perhaps be that you don't really have an argument yourself?... just fear and prejudice personified, a mouth without an actual brain behind it capable of seeing consequences.

Jack

Jack: You are apparently educated and very articulate. But you have no manners to speak of. I could quote Churchill in regards to that, but you already know don’t you?

The future will be bright, even if cops can invade your privacy at will, as long as it must be legally documented (videotaped). You as an individual will be able to challenge the reasonable-ness of that invasion and if a cop is repeatedly making wrong decisions he can no longer "invade privacy at will", or even go to jail if the supreme court sees that his reasons to invade ur privacy were not "in good faith" of stopping a crime.

Likewise for torture. The police should use torture on suspect-kidnappers/rapists and other physical abusers. It should also be videotaped so the effectiveness of torture can be statistically proven later on. Of course, if someone falsly accuses you of a physical crime and you get tortured, you will have the right to get them tortured themselves. Now I don't think any woman would even THINK about alleging rape on an innocent guy, because again, torture will give you 100% credible information, so the guy will very quickly be proven innocent, and the girl will later on get tortured and proven guilty - so she gets executed right away after confession... Knowingly causing an innocent person to get tortured deserves both torture and capital punishment...

You're kidding me right?... This article refers to granting IMMUNITY to telcoms for monitoring our conversations WITHOUT A WARRANT. They are literally taking away our right to have ANY of this legally documented - and our own private right to recourse through the legal/judicial system if we feel our individual rights have been violated. If the Telcoms did nothing wrong - why not let it go through the court system?

Furthermore, you rest your argument on the fact that all of the procedures used by the NSA will be videotaped or documented, and if there is a violation, 'someone' will expose it... Yet this man Klein, is exposing what he saw, and you vilify him!

Which side of your mouth are you going to talk out of next?

Look you need to stop now. Your rantings are out of control. Seek help. On second thought keep writing, the more absurd your arguments are the more you prove my point.

Jack

It was just a hypothetical solution. ;) I don't think the police will need to resort to torture in the near future, and most people won't go for torture EVEN IF it's statistically proven effective in solving crimes...

The future is more likely to be heavily monitored by the common people. Constantly videotaping cameras in all cars, in all public streets, and outside every home's door. You will simply not be able to commit a physical crime without getting caught immediately...

I don't trust Klein and his intentions. He's just one individual; the NSA is a system. I put trust in the system because mistakes get discovered and corrected PROMPTLY with lessons learned IMMEDIATELY when you have a good system (like the army does).

It's pointless to try to run this by the court system, because in the end it will reach the supreme court who will CLEARLY see the importance of the NSA having access to the data Klein "revealed" they have access to. The immunity the NSA has right now is beyond the regular law we know ANYWAY - but it's always nice when the people who work for you (NSA employees) feel even more secure that the "outside world" validates they put trust in them...

Sorry you feel that way. Some of these folks need to be exposed for what they are. There are times when men and women of good conscience must stand up and push back against unreasonable behavior, otherwise it becomes the accepted norm. Again think of what happened in 30's Germany. I am not going out on my knees, remember my misguided friends, posers wave the flag, patriots wave the constitution. The constant lame liberal bashing is so played, and needs to be exposed for what it is.

With regard to the invasion of privacy issues I will say it again our children will reap what we now sow.

I wanted to smoke these guys out and expose them for who they are... No better illustration of this exists than what the NSA obsessed guy several posts above this post actually writes about torture being acceptable if videotaped in response to my post???

I find it rather telling that with the exception of your very correct point on manners, and the NSA fan of torture, none of the other folks preoccupied with labeling opposing opinions as liberals have directly confront my arguments. Could it be that they don't really have an argument they are capable of defending?

By the way I believe your referring to Frank Churchill in Jane Austins Emma rather than Winston.

Or perhaps you are referring to Winston's quip... "When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite."

Kindest

Jack

could both of you stop capitalizing every couple words? it just looks stupid.

emphasis - like you're havin' a discussion, but you want to EMPHASIZE a specific point.

Your request has been declined.

So what you're saying is that there really was a second shooter on the grassy knoll...

If the NSA/CIA killed JFK, it was justified...

Why is it that it seems those who were found to be not acceptable are the ones who cry foul. If Klein had been allowed into the "inter sanctum" he speaks of, I wonder if he still be so anxious to tell what little he knows.

Most of you are complete morons. Yes, AT&T and many other communications, hardware, and software companies cooperate with government agencies to provide access.

But what makes you think there is no oversite? What makes you think they are allowed, have the resources, and desire to listen to every average citizen?

Unless you've been exposed to how things actually work, don't make assumptions.

Who cares if they have Oversight!... They shouldn't be conducting these program without a warrant - read your Constitution.

By the way - WHAT OVERSIGHT.... This article refers granting Telcoms that cooperated with the program immunity. If you get immunity, there is nothing left to oversee.

If there's nothing to hide, let it run through the court system.

Some Telcoms DIDN'T co-operate, because their lawyers told them it was illegal. The only one providing oversight is this whistleblower.

I have and I will! The only moron is the one that thinks 'all is well' like you.

Great! I was afraid the feds were just sitting on their asses and doing nothing about Internet crime, terrorism, etc.

To quote Ron Paul...

"The fight against terrorism is threatening American democracy."
"The American Republic is in remnant status,". "The stage is set for our country eventually devolving into military dictatorship, and few seem to care."

Indeed few seem to care, because few seem to agree that "American democracy" is threatened, nor that we're heading towards "military dictatorship".

Until people start "disappearing" without a trace, like in the old Iraqi regime, then that's time to pack up and leave the country...

Til then - it's all paranoia.

Please, let's not talk about Paranoia. "Saddam has WMD", "We can't wait until we see a Mushroom Cloud", " Mission Accomplished"

The only paranoia going on in our great country has been perpetrated by the likes of you. Trying to get as many people as fearful as possible sot hat pople will be willing to trade some of heir longstanding freedoms for better security.

I say that's BS. The lesson from 9/11 is to be more vigilant. More Police, More Responders, better training, agencies that listen to one another. Lesson learned. I'm sick and tired of people like you telling me we have to fear something or someone. As the quotes above prove... You will say anything to obtain your own agenda.

No real freedoms are taken away, no matter how many times you'll repeat it.

Yes, 9/11 taught us to be more vigilant, to have more police, better training, everything you said etc... It also taught us that better police (and the rest of the good stuff you mentioned) is NOT ENOUGH if we don't filter net traffic (and other digital data) for certain criteria.

I would NOT be surprised if Walmart/grocery outlets are required to provide their data to the NSA for analysis. I honestly don't know their statistical models, but I can guess that a person who buys a hell of a lot of humos and pitas, together with lots of chlorox, has an increased 0.001 score for being a terrorist ;)

I am kidding. But you get the point.

HomelandInsecurity
Homeland Insecurity
Hone Land Insecurity

www.HomelandInsecurity.net

Why is it, those who are not concerned of our government snooping into our private lives usually sign their message using a phony name?

To protect my self from liberal fascists.

Like the ones who would rather shout down those they disagree with (coulter, hannity, etc.) than let them speak;

Like the ones who would slash tires on republican voting vans than let the people be heard;

Like the ones who won't allow an up or down vote on Bush's nominees (Ginzburg never suffered such humilation)

Because giving your honest opinion has consequences in real life -- business/romance/friendship lost/damaged. I really don't mind a third party who won't be a business/romance/friendship partner to know my real name and my real opinion... That's why voting is usually anonymous...

To obfuscate.

When was Hannity ever shouted down? He seems to have a much bigger career than anyone disagreeing with him. Coulter - she gets an audience - why not opposing views? She seems to put down other people plenty. And her books sell briskly - no one seems to be impeding her ability to speak freely.

Slashing Tires for political gain is juvenile and inexcusable (I'm sure it's never happened to a Democrat?)... How about all the minorities that are constantly intimidated by Voter Advocates at the polls every election.

Funny how the party NOT in control of Congress wields it's power today. Tough to get a good bill to the floor without a little compromise.

Gripe/Whine/Complain.... anything but competent Governance by your Administration.

My you are angry aren't you.

You are the reason that I don't put anti-liberal bumper stickers on my car, post my name and address on posts.

Liberals are by far the more violnet of the siblings...and that is no obfuscation.

How to stop another 9-11?
Chomsky said it best - "The best way to stop terrorism is to stop participating in it."
QED

If you don't grasp what is meant by that quote you need to read a wider range of info on USA's activities around the globe.

Good luck to us all.

Sorry, but the world needs a police force. Thank God it's the USA and not Europe/China/Russia...

Mr. Extremely Well

What scares me is not just your views on my liberty, but also that so many people agree with you.

"Those that would trade liberty for safety, deserve neither". Ben Franklin

People agree with me because most people aren't paranoid like you, nor do they misinterpret Ben Franklin's quote. (I already responded to that exact quote several times in various ways).

Isn't that the truth Mr. Smith?? It doesn't scare me anymore, it infuriates me because they allow this to happen.

No... they agree with you because they ARE paranoid. They believe in super-spooky NSA agencies that don't answer to anyone, 'handle' Americans whenever they need to... torture/record/mine whatever is available... but don't worry, they will police themselves... I mean Jeezus H. Christ if that's not paranoia what is?

It's blind faith in the goodness of the American people ;)

So Benny boy was wrong :o)

Besides he didn't live in a world where thousands could die from a single act.

Right on! Only the libs think the people are not to be trusted, and therefor laws regulating what ever one does, and taxes to control how everone spends their money.

The security of our country has depended on such agencies doing their work and our country has continued to be strong as a result of it!
Wars are not just fought where the guns are blazing!

and this is new? I had a conversation with an old IT guy who had mentioned that NSA had a facility in VA that did the same thing with the old POTS telecommunications systems. The idea was that if a warrant was issued, they could tap anything in the US on a moments notice. This is just "big brother" taking it to the next logical step. The amazing thing is that with all of the invasion of privacy that this administration is guilty of, not a peep out of the people of the US. Guess watching reruns of "I love lucy" is more important. It will be quite interesting to see where all this ends up in 5-10 years... We have this invasion of privacy, a 5 year ongoing war with no end in sight, and it looks like an economic meltdown in progress. The future is looking more and more interesting every day.

Good night, and Good luck... (I think we are going to need it)

Here is some 2-bit hourly employee with an axe to grind looking to strike it rich with a whistleblower claim or a book deal. No credibility whatsoever.

Attack the messenger, not the message, right?

Woo, woo, woo - not too fast on editing your name I see.

Right, like Kathleen Willey, Jennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, and Linda Tripp.

As an American living in the Netherlands I routinely say 'key words' at one point in any conversation I make to the US whether through a land line or Skype. I figure since the US government is squandering my future Social Security I may as well get some 'benefit' from my tax dollars.

I always tell the person at the other end of the line that we're going to say a few words to the NSA agent monitoring my call. It doesn't take much imagination to know what 'words' might cause a conversation to be tagged. I figure it's my patriotic duty to test the monitoring skills of the NSA.

They probably just flagged your account with their "disgruntled but harmless ex-patriate" bit. ;)

I am unsure as to what te relevance of such an article is.

The question that arises is simply, where and how many other similar facilities are in existance and use today.

Behind the Iron Cuertain there were extensive faclities maintained for these purposes. In America there are.

Erosion of constitutional rights, blah blah blah. I am so tired of liberals complaining about this paranoid claim. I think these govt. agencies are possibly listening to,umm lets see,suspected terrorists?

They complain about this and then another 9/11 occurs and complain they didn't do enough.
Please go away Mr Liberal....far away.

gregkurtz; If you a real conservative, you should be outraged at this big government invasion of our lives. If you were a real conservative, you would know the abuse that this unmonitered, no oversite program will eventually lead to. Spying on you or me for whatever reason some government employee can come up with. Please read up on Watergate, then go away.

Poor YOU Greg. Brainless person but no time to pity the sheep, got real people to talk to. Go away from your kind- MY PLEASURE !!!!!!!

If Bush, Cheney, Rove, Addington, and others in the White House are not constantly violating the U.S. Constitution, why won't they use the email system set up for official White House business as required by law.

By your logic, if they are not doing anything wrong, why are they worried about being monitored?

Who do they work for anyway? The U.S. taxpayers, that's who, Damn it! They MUST be held accountable to US!

They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Interesting, but I'm witholding judgement.

Case in point: don't ask me how I know this ('cause I'll have to kill you...), but if the NSA were interviewing people, Klein wouldn't know about it. They don't exactly run around wearing 'NSA' trucker hats and t-s***s commemorating the 2004 Staff Picnic. He claims to know things that are a bit puzzling to those of us who live in that community, and admits "...he was not able to witness everyday goings-on in the "Secure Room...".

And if he found out through one of his buddies, well, then that's a violation of the same law that Karl Rove was accused of breaking in relation to Valerie Plame....

If anyone thinks that every citizen is being monitored they're nuts. There simply isn't the man power available to undertake such an ambitious program. Every data line, phone line or cellular phone in America is subject to being monitored, but they aren't. People in the industry are to busy just trying to keep the service up and running. Only those that have drawn suspicion are.

The Data is filtered and certian Sites/phrases or activities/email destinations are then looked at more deeply. No different that a Cop running Radar on a busy street; He may clock the speed of every car, but only the speeders get singled out for closer scrutiny.

I'm more worried about the fascists in Washington, Sacramento or Lansing taxing me into the poor house to fund yet another project designed to lift the unliftable than I am of being spied on.

The thing that bugs me is the lack of oversight. The "fascists" will use this any way they see fit. They have the computer power to filter for anything! To think that this will never be used for political gain is naive.

Do your research and find out who owns AT&T. I believe it will be CHINA.??????

If China had access to all internet traffic for analysis I assure you the average Chinese would not be slaving away for the average spoiled American...

They don't actually LISTEN to everything you say.

They have computers listening for certain 'keywords'

So try not to say stuff on the phone like:

"Honey, don't forget to pick up the hemorrhoid cream; 'cause my butt's starting to itch like a Mark 16 high-precision electronic nuclear weapon firing circuit switch!"

This is SO old. People forget that AT&T was THE network until the breakup and as such had deep responsibilities in this area for decades including the running of both domestic and secure networks for the government. It is detailed in many books - I first read about it in "The Network Nation" by Hiltz andTuroff (unrevised version) in 1978 which describes the relationship in some historical detail (the front cover is VERY interesting and I believe they got into some trouble over it... the revised edition does not have the same picture!). In "The Puzzle Palace" a very clear history of the role of the NSA and monitoring of communications goes back to early transatlantic cable and telephone communications, and frankly with the size of the budget of NSA - what do you think they are doing and have been doing for decades? Putting the politics aside - this is nothing new - so why the hub bub - bub?

Mark Klein deserves respect for coming forward, telling the American people what he has seen. Forced erosion of our constitutional, human, and civil rights question the validity of the who has what to hide or not hide used by those who really may or may not have society's best interest at heart. Especially when we sell guns to groups to kill or own soldiers. Who is running this quagmire? Who many plush vacations and gold covered truffles can we afford them?

It's about time, some hard facts direct from hell. Only two questions; How long until they successfully destroy Mark Klein, and who will be left standing on the side of freedom?

Sheeple suk

Certain sectors of the public have been intimidated into the OK'ing of illegal servalance and torture, as well as trading their privacy and freedom for security.

Those who have carried out this intimidation tatic have created the mind set that you "extremely well" has accepted. Remember the 'stockholm syndrome'? 'Extremely well' you seem to identify with the NSA very strongly.

For those who do not like the steady deterioration of your liberties, I wish to share a little fancy of mine. I was thinking of doing a comic book called "static". In it, individuals who upon realizing that they will be watched, like it or not, formed a group called 'Static'. What they did is send out warning signs far and wide creating red flags everywhere. Casting 'red herrings' if you will. Which in the end, spread the efforts of the monitors thin, very thin. As they grew in popularity, so did their numbers and so did their 'red herrings'. KInd of a electronic judo. The US military is already spread thin to the breaking point and everybody knows this. These forces that threaten your liberties are not limitless creations. They have limits. Static, that fanciful group, strained thoes limits.

Think about this.

Jackrabbit.

Hey, what do you think America? We are living in the midst of the kind of crap that would make Joeseph Stalin green with envy. I don't know about the rest of my country but this is really really ****ED UP!! When do you think they are going to start knocking on our doors telling us we are guilty of ordering pizza, phone sex with our significant other/ crack wh***/ door knob. Incarceration of enemies of the Neocon Empire. Don't know about the rest of your guys but I regret with all of my heart voting for this group of outlaws. I hope America can survive tweedle d*** and tweedle HEAD. People its getting close to the time we will have to stand against our Washington Tyrants. Funny how every time they act on behalf of out protection I feel our liberties take another gunshot to our Bill of Rights, you know ...... freedom of speech, right to bear arm, right of assembly, life/liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Question folks how much more of this will we take before we march and demand legal review of congress with respect to this crap.

Let's Roll!!!

Anybody that thinks it is a good for our government to spy on its citizens, in my opinion, deserves to lose their freedoms as surely they will. Our current President, George Bush, seems to think he is the first United States Dictator. We have fought many wars to rid the world of dictators, I would hope that we would soon learn our lessons and use our constitution to remove any President or other elected official who Flagrantly disobeys the laws of this great country.

Exactly! I say impeach but fear is running rampant! If WE pulled together, We could have OUR country back, but people don't even realize it's theirs anymore because the govt. to them is right even if it is wrong.

jpurry, I hope you've heard of Ron Paul. WE are pulling together, Ron Paul can restore America.

Spread the message, vote for Ron Paul.

I'm afraid to make a negative comment - not sure what the NSA might (secretly) do if they don't like my post.

Since this is a capitalistic country, instead of harming you physically, they'll probably opt to buy you out.

I will not be surprised if "somehow" this Mark Klein guy wins the lottery very soon and decides to retire in France or something. ;)

"Mr. Klein, we give you two options: death, or life in extreme prosperity overseas". Which would YOU choose? ;)

We already had this discussion. ;)

http://www.betanews.com/...mmunications/1135406234

Some selected highlights from my previous posts on this fascinating topic:

Why I trust the NSA.
Civil liberties are indeed important which is why if the NSA/FBI/president cross the line I'll be the first to resist, if needed forcefully (this country already had a civil war). I simply DO NOT see any liberties hindered by someone knowing who I talk to and about what, but keeping it PRIVATE. When I start seeing people being afraid to discuss these delicate matters on public forums such as this, that's when I'll start fearing my government. At this time they get my 110% support.
--
I am comfortable in my belief that at the apex of the NSA pyramid sit some highly moral individuals - even more than you and me whose morality (our) has not been tested as much as those army/judicial individuals. If they use torture - it's justified. If not - then it's not.
--
I don't think the NSA is breaking the law. Their laws are (probably) simply higher than the usual civil/criminal laws. Nobody knows how they operate, but my assumption (and hope) is that if they act contradictory to the constitution, it is still within their own ultimate law, dictated to them directly by some kind of a fair mechanism (majority rules in favor of torturing high-profile prisoner X, killing American citizen Y, etc).

If that governing body is composed of high-ranking judges and military personnel (or other loyal experts), it needs NOT get any approval from ANYONE - not the president, not congress, not the constitution, certainly not UN resolutions.

As far as getting warrants - again, you are speaking with the assumption it doesn't get done. Nobody knows what is done and what is not. If the NSA is composed of judges, then clearly you can see that warrants are not needed. And you can't tell how they select who needs to be watched closer. Perhaps those judges pre-approved certain criteria for folks who deserve special monitoring, based on your communications patterns. Say a guy who uses very strong encryption, calling certain cities/businesses, buying certain stuff, donating to certain causes, expressing certain opinions in PRIVATE, etc. You think they shouldn't watch this guy carefully even if 9 out of 10 times he will turn out to be as innocent as a newborn baby? Well I think they SHOULD.
--
The NSA _IS_ above the law. Have you ever heard of military law? Why is it so difficult for people to comprehend the NSA is ABOVE both criminal/civil and military legal systems. They can KILL citizens anywhere in the world, hopefully even certain Americans (if they need to prove some point, manipulate circumstances, you know spy games, so A will believe B did it so B goes and does it to C).
--
We can stop over 95% of attempted/planned attacks with very little inconvenience to the average citizen. A person who one day "out of the blue" decides he's gonna do something nasty has to perform many steps first: associate with people, buy materials, make some calls, send some emails...

Even if he is the most careful person in the world he will never be able to truly know if the religious leader he trusts (or whomever) is not on the FBI/NSA's payroll, or just being followed by them. IMing friends in special countries? Seeking information and location to certain materials on google (perhaps in Arabic)? Using very strong encryption that only 0.05% of ordinary folks use (and apparently not to evade taxes or hiding your fetishes)? Tsk tsk.. Raising big red flags and being put on personal surveillance.

There is absolutely no doubt that with more cash spent on security, the higher the chances are for catching this guy before he does any damage.
--
Re 3/4th judgement before killing an American -- I was just guestimating of course, based on similar rules for passing laws or amending the constitution. Killing an American would probably similarly require an across-the-border total agreement that it is NECESSARY. And no, I don't mind at all if a few suspect-spies and suspect-terrorists get killed even though they are American. That is what national security means. This is not different one iota from war. These individuals are WORST than the average enemy soldier in your average war... The damage they can do is far greater than what a simple enemy soldier could ever do.
--
I don't care if they have their own laws which contradict the constitution at times (say - times of war). My opinion is very clear - if 3/4th of Supre Court judges, or 3/4th of army generals debate among themselves [relying on massive collected evidence] then say that a specific American needs to DIE (not just spied upon) because he is a threat to national security - I have enough trust in them that this guy really does need to die.

No need to hear his "counsel".
--
"MOVE TO IRAN!"
--
Why should I move from a country where I TRUST the government to KILL THOSE WHO DESERVES TO DIE to a country where I PERSONALLY COULD BE KILLED FOR NO JUST CAUSE?

Yes, we have slightly more freedom than we need to protect ourselves right now. It's a very known fact to every schoolkid that a GOOD BIG BROTHER is a wonderful thing.

Hopefully the NSA keeps a realll close eye on every frequent mosque "visitor". They'll know that because the exact location of cellphones today is readily available. I bet they have a huge red X on mosques. Mind you, nearly all terrorists were very religious Muslims who did just what I just said (visited mosques MUCH MORE than the average visitor).

Hopefully a few feds wearing some wires and minicameras will take real good shots of all the usual prime suspects for the next would-be attack.

Welcome to reality, my friend. The "little" freedom you have is there because there are folks out there who know the difference between those who deserve to be left alone (folks like you and me) and those "Americans" that MUST be very closely monitored.
--
"If you trust any government that decides to kill any of it's own citizens you need serious help. "
--
Newsflash, my freedom-loving friend... Our government kills every year roughly 60 Americans. Yeah, most of them succeeded in killing one or two folks before they actually got caught (your common felons), but I guess they're much bigger threat to society in your opinion than, say, an American (probably Muslim) pilot who is 98% complete with his plan to kill 50,000 people during the Superbowl.
--
Freedom was fun while it lasted, now it's time to make sure LIFE is preserved by ALL MEANS POSSIBLE. I wish the NSA the best of luck in monitoring every fart of every American.

Only once I PERSONALLY feel they've crossed the line and ABUSED their power by putting "petty-criminals" behind bars will I be against their methods. Not to say you/I can do much if you're against them. A change in president or senate is probably not sufficient... They're most likely as a-political as possible in order to prevent inside abuse, and every major action they take has to be agreed upon by multiple very smart, PROVABLY HONEST (judges, generals), & fair individuals.
--
Back to NSA's activities...If your illegal activities will put you in jail for upto 10 years, you have nothing to worry about someone in the government "knowing" about it, cuz they won't reveal their secret actions for such minor crimes. If on the other hand they know you are a serial killer, terrorist, international drug-dealer/spy, I guess/hope they'll do the right thing(TM) and jump in. They will of course still try to cover reality by producing "eye-witnesses" (experienced spies) to fool even the court systems. You do what you gotta do.
--
I don't think the NSA may be able to crack some encryption methods, especially those that will encode your crap using multiple-algorithms (with diff keys obviously) in multi-layer style - so even if NSA broke ONE of them, they did not break ALL OF THEM (the NSA does not have a monopoly on brilliant mathematicians). Diff algorithms which were invented work on diff assumptions of difficulty (factoring large numbers, finding discrete logarithms, etc).

My guess of what the NSA probably does, though, is something closer to this: they pay special attention to encrypted data, and profile those who use it, and for what purposes. They compile a list of "prime suspects". Then they wait for the right moment and JUMP IN to grab your encryption key using yet-to-be-discovered holes in the LOOOONG chain of software you use/trust, or do what the FBI did to that Mafia guy - break-in and install a physical keylogger. So they just need to find a hole in the OS, or Skype, or Browser, or Anti-Virus, or whatever else you are running so they can inject a key-logging trojan and grab your key somewhat more easily than breaking the cipher. This is of course assuming they did not force the major software companies to install those backdoors with the understanding that if it ever gets discovered they will: a. go to jail for a really really long time (national security issue). b. lose much much business.
--
"You are justifying torture by saying those who oppose it are going to have their family die. I think hell has a special place reserved for you. "
--
I can see how you can believe in heaven and hell. You have no respect for human life so you leave it up to God to sort it out. So what if millions will die in a nuclear war? The bad guys will go to hell and the good guys to heaven - how convenient.

Sorry, my friend, I'm not going to hell regardless of whether it exists or not. You, on the other hand, for not doing the most you can to save the lives of the MOST AMERICANS, just might experience hell in this very earthly life.

So how are you doing former Attorney General John Ashcroft. everything ok ? Flog any Americans lately? Have any school children shot for not having a crease in their pants?

I know this is really d*** Cheney isn't it, thought you were still busy shooting your friends in the gut. So nice of you to stop by and let us know how we should be thinking.
Hope you enjoy your day of spying on naked boys and kicking the infirmed.

See, this is the type of comment that an INTELLIGENT reader will disregard as far as opinion forming is concerned. Of course it did have some comic value...

Retarded points:
1. I am John Ashcroft. Then I am D. Cheney.
2. Children get shot by our government.
3. Our politicians are pedophiles.
4. The government has cameras in bathroom and just about anyone has access to the recorded data.

Now if you want people to actually get convinced by your POV, you'll have to try harder to articulate just exactly what you think is bad about the government knowing a lot about you without using that information against you when they know you are an average citizen...

www.ronpaul2008.com

VOTE RON PAUL!! RESTORE AMERICA!

extremely well,

Thank you for your passion on this topic. The real core of many problems in American politics is apathy on the part of its citizens. The only way we can progress as a society is through open discussion and debate.

I think you are a little confused on the role of the NSA however.

"The National Security Agency/Central Security Service is America’s cryptologic organization. It coordinates, directs, and performs highly specialized activities to protect U.S. government information systems and produce foreign signals intelligence information. A high technology organization, NSA is on the frontiers of communications and data processing. It is also one of the most important centers of foreign language analysis and research within the government."

The NSA's role is analytical. Most NSA employees are mathematicians, linguists, scientists, etc. If you believe the NSA is murdering American citizens then you are more paranoid than myself.

As for the domestic spying, this country was founded upon Liberty. Citizens have certain unalienable rights and the Constitution was written to LIMIT government. The Founders were intelligent enough to see a large federal government trampling its citizens' rights if they did not strictly forbid it from happening.

It's not that the federal government is intentionally destroying us. They are doing what they think is right. Unfortunately, human nature is what it is. A large federal government trying to perform every security service imaginable for its citizens simply cannot work.

The Founders knew this and left for us the Constitution. The fact is the blame resides with us, the citizens, for failing to enforce the Constitution and control our government. We do have the power.

The reason domestic spying cannot be tolerated is quite simple. Who is to determine the purpose of the spying? Our government has been too scared since 9/11 and has used The War On Terror to justify everything. They have encouraged you to believe that Terrorists are evil people and they are out to get you. They have encouraged you to believe that we must give up Liberty to stop terrorism.

Fast forward 20 years. The plan worked. All terrorists are dead. Our country is secure. Who's next? Maybe the "moral elite" decides that we should spy on gays and secretly kill them, since homosexuality is a sin. Maybe the "political elite" are afraid of a Libertarian uprise and spy on outspoken individuals and kill them. Maybe the "corporate elite" use their connections to spy on their competition and gain unfair advantage in the marketplace.

Now, you are thinking these are far-fetched what-ifs and I'm a paranoid Liberal. You say that if the NSA grows too oppressive you will revolt. The problem is that you won't know it when it happens. These things happen slowly. Your revolt will start when they break down YOUR door or put a bullet in YOUR head.

When Social Security was first enacted, it was a "voluntary" program and carried many caveats. I'm sure opponents could foresee the future as our Capitalist society slowly errodes into Socialism, yet were reassured that they were being paranoid. Sixty years later and Social Security is out of control. It is not financially sound, has no long term viability, and has created generations of people dependent upon their government.

We have to remember why the Constitution was written. We have to take responsibility for our own lives and limit our government.

Every day your Constitutional Rights are being eroded by those wishing to control you.
While all the Amendments are important, remember the Second Amendment is designed to protect you from losing all the others. The Framers of the Constitution included the 2nd Amendment with the express purpose of allowing Americans to protect themselves from the government.
Support the 2nd Amendment. If the government has firearms and the American public does not, we are a nation of subjects and victim, not citizens. Ask the WWII Jews in Germany about forcible disarmament. Ask the American Blacks about forecd disarmament (the beginnings of gun control in the US).
All this points to the ability of the government to do anything it wants in the name of 'National Security" while allowing non-citizens (read 'illegal aliens') carte blanche to run slipshod over our Country.
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!
And WAKE UP NOW!!!

Well, me thinks the story is far from over, really going to get far more interesting. In my not so humble opinion the only difference between some of the hostile states your gov't is trying to defend against and itself is financing methods and millions murdered.
First, the financing portion. You, the working tax payer, not the money handlers (they likely never ever sweat to put food on the table) are paying all the bills. Yours is a top down system, your pay check proves it. The better connected you are to your gov't, the less tax you pay legally and there are news stories everyday about those who find that that is not enough, they peddle their influence or steal directly from you tax payers.
Now the millions murdered, if we were to estimate, thats all you can do because of the record keeping (NAZI'S were better at that admittely). Blacks from the days of slavery till now, about 2 million counting the lordly master punishments on the plantations to todays poor innocent blacks unable to defend themselves with a lawyer. I'm not talking about the obviously guilty, there are always those white and black. And then there are the native americans, I estimate about 80 million murdered. The leaders, your leaders have always been two faced about agreements, pen in one hand, gun, knife or poison blanket in the other. They were practicing biological warfare even then while pretending to hold to a higher ideal. B.S. (sorry, can not stand twoface) You are sadly burdened with dealing with a gov't that has and will continue to commit genocide and your worried about freedom, ha.
Now I leave you with a math question. Add up the nuber of victims from all the wars you have kindly contributed too on both sides, compare these numbers in columns with the country at the top. Yours will show the least amount of victims from your country, you will also get a lesson in history too. You are normally late to the dance and you always do it for economic reasons (money) instead of doing the moral right thing when the rest of the world has already acted. I could go on but its likely getting to be a bore.

Guess we should have left Europe to good ol' Adolph, then so we wouldn't have that German 3rd Reich blood on our hands, eh?

I live in Detroit, and here the old AT&T building is right next to the FBI building. I seriously doubt that's just a coincidence.

FBI is not the NSA

Like I said - WAKE UP!! From some of these answers it is no wonder they can lead people around by their nose!

Let them listen so 9/11 won't happen again?? HELLO !!! There are NO terroist, just the ones listening in on You. WAKE UP AMERICA !!

Tell that to the 3000 people killed on 9/11, the two embassies in Africa, etc.

No, you tell that to the 3860 US Citizens killed in the Iraq war. And before you say something stupid, soldiers are citizens.

As you can see I have SBC as an internet provider but will NOT be on it long. The activity is Big Brother and illegal. I would be in prison for MUCH less! We the People can NOT tolerate this! It is against all our Fathers have fought and died for. How dare them put us below them and use us like guinea pigs. SHAME!!

Yah, I have AT&T as a cell provider (originally Cingular/SBC), and I'm very disappointed in them. But to whom would I switch? The only difference between AT&T and Verizon, et al, is that the others have not had a "Mark Klein" to come forward and expose their treachery. I assure you that the spying described (and more) is happening at _every_ backbone provider. Energy spent trying to identify a non-existent "honest" provider would be better spent exploring the possible use of anonymizer, onion router (TorPark, Xerobank, etc.), steganography (m-o-o-t.org), and encryption technologies. Is any of that NSA-proof? Probably not. However, while FedGov is trying to tax us to death, their resources are still limited. The poster above who suggests deliberate tactics to stretch those resources as thinly as possible is on the right track. Make the NSA use their supercomputers and neural networks on all traffic, even the picture of your new niece your sister sent, you, and their technology may be slowed to a crawl. Sooner or later, suspicious traffic must be brought to a human employee for analysis. Make the computers barf up so much analysis fodder on that employee's desk he needs to work 90 hour weeks to keep up. This strategy is not limited to the internet. The way to destroy a totalitarian government is not by direct confrontation (although that has its place) it is by making (or allowing) that government to attack itself (more aikido than judo) by the very mechanisms it evolved to oppress its citizenry. Go over your tax returns with a fine toothed comb to make sure that you are not giving the gummit one more penny than you need to do to stay out of jail. Look into all "social welfare" programs (even the most unjustified, and especially Social Security related programs) and collect any and all benefits for which you may qualify. Under better circumstances, collecting money that you weren't "due" would be a despicable practice, but currently it is no more than stealing back from a thief who stole from you (at gunpoint). Such tactics may be the only effective course of action we have left. Voting is futile and false - nothing more than a strategy by the Demoncrats and Repugnicans to divert the energies of those who would restore Liberty into harmless channels. The "inconvenient fact" is that this society will have to be completely broken before any real possibility to fix it will exist.

-Roland

If you don't have anything to hide don't worry about it. Blackmail is only blackmail if you want to hide it. There are enough hackers out their to make your privacy rights a moot point anyway. There is no privacy anywhere, whether it is the government or whoever, just get over it. A secret is only a secret if nobody knows about it. Duh!!

DUH is right. It is DUHmer people like you that can't make a stand because some people may not have 'secrets' but at the same time have the right not to be listened in on like people with no morals do. Blackmail? What track did you fall off of?

If you don't have anything to hide, please photocopy your personal I.D. and SS card, and post a copy of that publicly as well as your phone, address, and other personal information, as well as the code to any security system you have on your house, leave the door unlocked so I can come in and rummage around in your drawers and closets, sign a general waiver for anyone to access your medical, tax, criminal, and other personal records.

Wait... you are going to reply with "that's private, you have no business to it."

Well, If you have nothing to hide, then why wouldn't you allow it? Hipocrisy, thy name is you.

Who would sacrifice our civilian rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution of the United States to the Government? You? The sheeple that are believing this constant onslaught of fearmongering we've been dealing with since the 2nd decade of the 20th century? If it were up to people like you, any joe on the street isn't allowed to have the reasonable expectation of due process and privacy, all because you're too scared or stupid to not buy into the government line?

Why is it that the American people have been constantly fed a line of B.S. by the government repeatedly since WWI? It's because those in power only want one thing, and fear only one thing: They want more power by eroding the freedoms deserved by every citizen, and they fear those very same citizens taking that power away from them by democracy.

We have been fed this propaganda to keep us in fear, to keep the sheeple in line, to get them nice and compliant, to chip away and erode the very freedoms that makes this country great.

Isn't it amazing that when things start calming down the FBI, CIA, or NSA suddenly come out with "security bulletins" or "alerts" to possible "threats" against soft targets and people, like the just-reported "possible mall attacks in Chicago and Los Angeles over the holiday season" that is sweeping the news?

It's to keep people scared. Scared people act on emotion and not reason. Scared people are easy to control.

Stalin's regime wasn't the only way to rule by fear. We have the makings of that happening now, right in our own country.

It's education, information, and a dedication to reason, truth, and the will to carry out what must be done is what we need now, not fearmongering.

Don't put your faith in either the Dems or the Republicans. They're both part of the same game.

Thank God for intelligent life!! It may be up to only a few of us as you can see! If only they would shutup long enough to learn. I guess the government didn't send in infected blankets to the Indians either!!

If the government wants to listen for security then let them listen. Even people freaked out about their privacy should ask themselves what's more important, my e-mail to grandma or maybe stopping the next 9/11?

Their monitoring seems pretty secure, at least the room is not accessible to everyone and their mom. Keep on doing what you're doing NSA.

I don't think this is anything new. And I also don't think the "audio out" in the deposition room is an accident as well. But it sure is funny.

Diane Feinstein wants to grant blanket immunity to AT&T for violating our rights. Time to sweep Ms. Feinstein out of office.

- Arye Michael Bender -

Oh great. I think the people that ordered this should jump on their AF-1 and go explain one more time to China how spying on your people is wrong. People wonder why the world hates us.

Maybe we the people should be spying on our goverment a little! They're out of hand!

I didn't vote for the hypocrite.

This 'monitoring' has been going on for years, just in this one case. There are duplicate monitoring rooms in many other switching centers -all over the world- too!.......but, really, who cares! Listen to my calls and read my email, you would just be bored. Maybe the NSA could do something useful like filtering some of my SPAM!

George Orwell's timing was just a bit off. We'd do well to read 1984 again

If those tasked with upholding our laws disregard them, what then is our recourse? If we let our government take our liberties, we deserve what we get.

The worldview and philosophy that espouses the belief that there is no inalienable right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure (that our privacy, persons, and words are inviolate absent actual evidence of lawbreaking), is a self-destructive and shortsighted one. As long as thier views and the limited scope in which they excercise thier liberties are not percieved to be infringed upon, they accept all sorts of government intrusion in the name of security.

What about when their thoughts and ideas are the ones that are considered "dangerous". What about when the goverment secretly monitors thier words for ideas that don't line up. After all, the most dangerous things to our society are ideas, so if we stamp out ideas that don't line up with the mainstream, aren't we all safer? Is it too much to pay for the prize of safety to give up a little liberty that most don't understand anyway?. This line of thinking can be logically extended to say that the government should have the right to search our homes and computers for any ideas or words that deviate from standards that they define. Because that will be what keeps us safe...and this worlldview holds safety and security to be the highest value even above personal liberty.

I say that without personal liberty, safety loses much of its meaning. You are no longer free to be yourself but must only think within the narrow confines of what is considered mainstream.

For those that think my analogies are far-fetched, one only need look at human history to see a pattern. It is in the nature of governments to oppress. Most human governments have been oppressive to some degree, America is almost unique in that we have had hundereds of years of relative liberty. The fairly recent western Christian worldview (post reformation) that believes that we are all accountable to a power higher than goverment and therefore can govern ourselves is responsible for shaping the thinking of our founding fathers. They beleived that our rights come from God and not through human means that can be revoked by the whim of public opinion or tryants fancy and our consititution is simply an attempt to reconcile our law and government structure to the fabric of reality. This form of government breaks down when trying to govern those that do not share this worldview. They don't believe in the necessity or even the possibility of self-governance (self-control) and self-reliance and thier behaviour must be maintained by outside influences (read: fear of consequences).

Those who disagree with me on this cannot fathom how I can hold up some insubstantial point of philosophy (self-determination, liberty) to be more important than safety and security. They are mystified by how I could recommend we should willingly endanger our country and ourselves simply to protect some outdated (thier opinion) and obscure points of philosophy. Just as I am mystified why they would even want to live on safely in the type of world they are trying (sometimes by their failure to act) to create where we exist only at the mercy of our government and within the narrow boundaries of thought that they permit.

Alarmist they say...my claims are absurd, it could never happen here, we have the consitution. Well I say that the consitution itself is a very thin protection. It has no real power other than as a framework to which we as a people should hold our leaders power in check. When we disregard that consititution it loses what little power to protect that it had. What about when we limit its application and scope. Did the constitution protect african slaves? No, because it was ignored even as it was created. All men only meant white people to them. They were not perfect and I am glad to see that this inequity has been corrected, but we ignore these ideas at our peril. I would more believe ints its power to protect if I didn't see it ignored so often. It can happen here. We can allow ourselves to become slaves to our government. Perhaps those with whom I differ on this believe that tyranny and oppression are born into the world full grown or that they would even recognize it in its infancy. It is not so. Tyranny is always incremental absent some vast change (such as communist revolutions which replace one tyranny with another). Did not Rome start out as a republic? We face the same risk of empire that they did. Only by vigilance can we hope to stave it off. We are not being vigilant to allow the government to snoop on its own people in the name of protecting them. It is a very small s*** to believe that in order to protect the people the government must protect itself....from them and that in the name of that protection (security) they must usurp some minor priveledges that they would never miss (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from unreasonable search and siezure, right to due process). This is already happening why am I not joined by more people in voicing my outrage?

AMEN!!! Thank you!

Get a life. I'd rather have the government protect us then have 3000+ people die. How would you do it? How you make sure that another atack doesn't happen?

You can't have it both ways retard. The government is "protecting" us, and yet 3860 Americans have died in Iraq since this war began. Or do you only care about Americans killed on American soil?

I have a 24 x 48-foot room
It has a shower in it and a throne

Gotta love the tinfoil hat crowd...

This is so very pleasing to hear, 'tis a pleasure to see such dictates working. Only concern is the quality of the junk being espoused by these gooses might sway us righteous persons.
Note, look at a map SanFran is on the left, however the dichotomy is, the fools at MIT are on the right!
Personally, I think Jerry Yang, and his counsel should be in charge of this.
And, final word on Klein, some gentle stroking at Gitmo will disabuse him of any weird notions!

In San Francisco, ouch! How are those left wing nut jobs out there going to cope with that? Right under their noses. They may as well start cannabalising each other right away.

Something we already knew... Unfortunately.

Mark Klein is a hero, and the NSA needs to be held accountable. Feck the NSA for violating my rights. Someone should be in jail.

You don't have a right to privacy in the USA. Privacy is a recent concept.

You do have the right to privacy. Lets say the goverment want you to do something. They just go thru all the the info on you. They can black mail you, to get what they want

I a GW BUSH. Your president! :-D ps, on the internet you can be whomever you want to be. lmfao!

I say to all my young men and woman. I will listen on to all your phone calls, monitor what you do in your home on your computers, and soon I'll force cameras inside your home to watch you in the shower. I have no respect for you and your brothers and sisters. I'll play with myself all day and night as I watch you in your showers once we get it started. oh, guess what! You can't do crap to me because you have no power to change anything. I am above the law and no one can do anything to us in the court system because we rigged it up so we can just ban cases of the sort. We have the right to tell all news media centers to not tell its people what's really going on. We will just claim that it will harm our national security. 99.9% of the stuff we do is against americans and has nothing to do with protectings national security. If a president in another country doesn't like us, we kill them. They can't mount a defense against us because they know that we are ALL traders against the world. We understand that 100% of all countrys hate us. they hate us because we tell them what they can and can not do. But guess what!!!! We will kill them if they complain too much.

THIS IS WHAT AMERICA IS! IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, THEN YOU'RE NOT AS SMART AS US! ONE DAY THE OTHER COUNTRY'S WILL MOUNT A DEFENSE. of course, I'll be here in the country to make changes to make it better for ALL humans. Less government is the key to a better economy! Sure, a country needs some sort of government, BUT WHO OUR WE TO TELL THEM THEY HAVE TO BE LIKE US! That's what we are doing to Iraq! When we don't like a president overthere, we kill them and tell them to elect another one.

What a moronic series of statements that was. I doubt that it would be worth explaining the reality of the spying other countries do as well. To think the US is the only government doing this just belies the immaturity in your political views. Oh yes the Big Bad US is at it again... Blah Blah... When will the rest world wake up to whats happening?

/me sets mode +b bushisagayfreak.

(we can dream, can't we?)

amen

HomelandInsecurity
Homeland Insecurity
Hone Land Insecurity

www.HomelandInsecurity.net

> While BetaNews had planned to cover Klein's remarks on Capitol Hill today, in a strange turn of events, the audio feed for the Senate Judiciary conference room was malfunctioning.

"GeeWiz Wally, what is a strange turn of events?"

"Gee Beaver, Dont you know anything? There ain't no malfunctions on Capital Hill, just mal-intentions."

Agreed - wow, censoring a feed about rooting censorship - WTF George Orwell was right - 1984 was just a few years late...Something must be done.

Now they are going see all my comments about Joey and blackball me. Damn it, what drives me to take chances like that?

Duh.... Its what the NSA was created for in the first place. To monitor EVERY incoming and outgoing communications concerning the USA.

The directive of the NSA is not to moniotr all communications "related to the USA" (implying that somehow monitoring the private communicatiosn of US citizens is permissible. It's purpose is (quoting from the original charter) "to provide an effective, unified organization and control of the communications intelligence activities of the United States conducted against foreign governments, to provide for integrated operational policies and procedures pertaining thereto."

You mean their secret charter? They've always monitored ALL communications coming into and going out of the USA. 60 Minutes even did a story on this a few years back.

All communication?

60 Minutes?

Go back and watch it again. They said no such thing. They were going over and above the "charter", but you have to realize that monitoring "ALL" communication is logistically impossible, right?

It's possible they were filtering a great portion of it to narrow it down to certain key phrases and suspect IPs, the act of monitoring even a "zero" percentage of ALL internet traffic is impossible to put it mildly.

Hello boys & girls.
Can you say Super-Computer?
It doesn't seem too hard imagine a computer that would record every single call or email sent from or to the US. All you might need to create such a mechanical monster is the resources. How about 1% of the $439.3 billion defense budget of 2007? You think some computer company might be interested in building it for Big Brother? Heck, they might as well outsource the work to China and get a real good discount.

Oh and those cell phone calls are real secure as they pass thru US satellites. I'm sure they not being recorded, either.

Now try actually monitoring any of it.

Storing it is one thing (not that any existing technology has anywhere near the data transfer speeds to do such a thing). Actually knowing what's in there is completely different.

Seems the tinfoil hat is cutting off oxygen to the gray-matter there, kiddo.

And the knucklehead getting his 15 minutes of fame as a mdia darling has no eveidence of any laws being broken. His own words claim he has never been inside the room, has not seen what actually happens in there, if domestic or foreign data is collected, viewed stored or just sorted for key words/names, no idea what warrants may have been in existence, nothing. And his story is two years old. Gotta love the lib MSM

The NSA has more than ample resources to store every single IP packet and every cell/phone call from several million individuals who are:
1. Muslim Americans who frequent mosques (or follow any other patten behavior of past terrorists in this country and in other countries).
2. Non-citizens.

In other words, the NSA needs NOT monitor/store any data communication of an ISP user who they know is a non-Muslim American citizen. That basically cuts the load by hmmm 99%? Yes.

If there were not some kind of substance to Klein's charges, then AT&T, Verizon, etc., would not be trying to get Congress to pass a law immunizing them from charges of violating the laws. All that is necessary is for Congress to not pass such a law and let the court cases run their course. We will then discover whether the laws were violated. I know this will annoy you submissive authoritarians, but the rest of us like our rights better than we like your Big Brother.

typical.

Not surprising at all.

Which part? The audio feed malfunctioning?

--->Not surprising at all.

"laughs"

You have got to be the dumbest person EVER.

stupid conservative commenters defending this with stupid boilerplate reasons, as if it were defensible by any stretch.

I guess when terrorists blow up your town at least you'll have the moral high ground.

Rather the 1000 words, here is why we need to have a strong NSA/FBI/CIA:
http://www.thebest-of.in...oud-jqoriginalphoto.jpg

To Extremely Well:

I've read your comments thoroughly, because I like to give full consideration to all who might contribute to this 'debate'. You are fairly articulate, seeming rational, and clear in your perspective. Now, it's my turn to shine a little light, and show what your views represent to me, simply by s***ing the perspective a small bit.

For your information, I am very much against giving this administration and the NSA any room to operate outside our established laws, those that were established specifically to provide oversight and regulation of their activities. The President has already clearly said that they have not abided the FISA regulations. Therein lies the crime.

I'm not going to address the entire dialogue, but one point only. I quote you:

"If that governing body is composed of high-ranking judges and military personnel (or other loyal experts), it needs NOT get any approval from ANYONE - not the president, not congress, not the constitution, certainly not UN resolutions."

This is part of a very long post which I read in its entirety. Let me drop that statement into another context, and then perhaps you will understand my dismay, that if those running this country think as you do, we are in deep trouble...

For a moment, let's take away the context, that is, the specific nation under discussion (ours). If I read your arguments neutrally, and then look for the country that best matches what you describe, I find it rather readily. With the statement I quoted above, you are describing the manner and method of the Chinese communist administered government almost to the letter!

If you know anything of the Chinese form of government as it exists today, think of it now, and then read the statement again:

"If that governing body is composed of high-ranking judges and military personnel (or other loyal experts), it needs NOT get any approval from ANYONE - not the president, not congress, not the constitution, certainly not UN resolutions."

I think the Chinese Politburo would agree wholeheartedly, as they operate in complete agreement (and practice) with the above. Those few at the top, they know what's best for their citizens, and need not get approval from ANYONE..... if a few people have to die, so be it.... etc.

Extremely Well, you have done extremely well describing the very heart and soul of a totalitarian system. You assume that our people at the top making good decisions are incorruptible. History, time and again, has proven you wrong, and that's why we have laws, and oversight, and checks and balances.

From all that I have read, sir, I think that you should relocate to China. They do things EXACTLY in the way that you believe is the best way for government and its agencies to operate. But that is not how we do things here, sir.

We are a nation of laws, and a government of, for, and by the People. Our Constitution reigns supreme, and nothing, no threat of violence, no justification by a "well-meaning administration", no group who may be "above typical civil/criminal law", NOTHING diminishes that writ from the being above all other consideration.

Laws are written to both protect the citizenry AND to enable the government to act against our nation's enemies. Those laws exist in balance. Those laws were also written to accommodate the NSA and others *with oversight* to engage in narrowly defined and specific actions. If they wish to go beyond those, they need to do so through due process. If they have not followed the law as it is written, it is a violation of our most basic principles, and that must be addressed and prosecuted.

There is no further argument possible on these basic matters. If, that is, you believe in our Constitutional Republic as it was meant to be.

From what I'v read however, you'd be happier living under Chinese rule. Personally, I am not. I will fight with every fiber in my being to protect and uphold this Constitution, the guiding principle of this nation that I love.

Thank you for reading, and Godspeed.