RSSWhy is John Hodgman smiling? Data loss isn't the only Snow Leopard problem
By Scott M. Fulton, III | Published October 13, 2009, 12:04 PM
If Snow Leopard, the latest version of the Mac operating system released late last August, were seriously plagued with bugs, writes a volunteer contributor to Apple's discussion forum, the company would be besieged with complaints. But that may very well be the problem, as evidenced by this screenshot from a Snow Leopard user who attempted to formally report his problem to Apple through his operating system, and was met with this message: "An error has occurred. Please report the error to Apple Inc. by emailing the error detail to devbugs@apple.com."
As the user reported on Apple's forum, "I'd laugh if I wasn't in an apoplectic rage."
Apple has reportedly acknowledged the existence of a critical data loss error affecting numerous Snow Leopard users, although the company actually has yet to release a complete statement on the issue. As a result, The Unofficial Apple Weblog has resorted to taking a reader poll, asking readers when they believe Apple can fully resolve this issue for release 10.6.2 (developer builds for which are now being distributed). About a quarter of TUAW's readers are confident Apple can roll things up by the week of October 26.
As this situation continues to develop, there is now one big issue and at least three subsidiary issues that branch from it. The main problem concerns the apparent fact that Snow Leopard is deleting the wrong data when exiting a Guest account.
In Mac OS X, the Guest account was devised as a convenient way for a non-authorized user to be able to use the computer with limited privileges, in such a way that no permanent changes or extra files remain when the user logs off. But since Snow Leopard's release, a growing number of users are discovering that the system is deleting the wrong account: Their main user accounts are missing, along with most of the data stored under those accounts.
Why this problem was not discovered during testing (assuming testing even occurred) is baffling. In the absence of raw data from Apple to help users resolve or avoid the issue, once again, Mac users are left with independent sources and volunteer contributors to Apple's forums to help them out.
Based on what those folks have been able to compile, here is what we've been able to assemble thus far: The problem seems to be concentrated among users who have upgraded to version 10.6.1 from earlier versions. The theory there is that the format of the existing Guest account may not have been upgraded to conform to the new version of the operating system.
Mac users who upgraded to version 10.5 Leopard once before noticed something unusual in the same category, but not as destructive: After upgrading, their main accounts' home directories appeared to be missing. It turns out that they were only moved to a temporary location, and that the upgrade process for some neglected to relocate contents from the /home-preserved directory that Leopard created and the new /home directory. It took a little prestidigitation for users to resolve that problem, but in that case, data was not lost.
But the existence of the problem itself suggests that Apple is changing the structure of user accounts with new releases (which is a likely reason why Leopard would have been relocating user's files in the first place). Theoretically, code that was designed from the ground up to handle a new account structure may be disrupting the old one, in situations where the upgrade process to Snow Leopard failed to make the appropriate change -- as appears to be the case with the Guest account.
The three subsidiary issues arising in the wake of the Guest account problem are, in and of themselves, quite serious, though in terms of possible damage they pale by comparison. First, users who are genuinely trying to restore their data using Time Machine, Apple's built-in backup utility, are discovering it didn't back up their complete contents. According to one Web developer's report, Web pages associated with users' accounts do not appear to have been restored, and were probably not backed up to begin with.
A second issue that's probably unrelated technically is being given extra weight with regard to Snow Leopard's other problems: Users of the Mac's Airport wireless devices are reporting continually dropped connections only since having upgraded to Snow Leopard. Several volunteers have suggested any number of solutions including upgrading router firmware and changing the format of security keys to something stronger, but no solution seems permanent.
What may relate this issue to the bigger issue of account deletion, if anything, is this one common thread: Folks who believe their solution is fixed (their Airport stops dropping connections) only come to discover the problem un-fixes itself after their machine is powered down or hibernated. As one afflicted Mac user writes, "Something tells me that Airport just isn't meant to be cycled off and on numerous times a day to reestablish a connection."
Another potentially common thread has to do with external hard drives, many of which are connected using Airport. Many Snow Leopard upgraders are reporting they cannot launch their Finder application for these drives -- specifically, they're receiving a message that reads, "The application Finder.app can't be opened - 10810."
Some users report being able to reconnect to their external drives and launch Finder, but only after uninstalling whatever drive they're using for their continual Time Machine backup. And once again, in cases where users appear to have found solutions, their fixes mysteriously disappear after having powered down or hibernated their systems. "Now have the choice of no Finder or no backup," writes one user. "We need an answer from Apple."
As with other cases in the past, we're seeing some independent contributors to Apple's forums who respond to complaints by coming to Apple's rescue. For example, some contributors have now taken to responding to demands that Apple issue a solution to the Guest account debacle by citing Apple's EULA, specifically the section headed, "9. Limitation of Liability."
That's the section that states that by using the Mac in the first place, you agree that Apple cannot possibly harm you with serious intent. The section reads, in part, "In no event shall Apple's total liability to you for all damages (other than as may be required by applicable law in cases involving personal injury) exceed the amount of fifty dollars ($50.00). The foregoing limitations will apply even if the above stated remedy fails of its essential purpose."
One can imagine Justin Long seated behind a desk in front of a queue full of complaining users, and passing out fifties.
But throughout the Apple forums, perhaps for the first time, there appears to be a split in the ranks, where not everyone is rushing to the company's defense as if it's the one being damaged. One user bit by both the Guest account and Time Machine problem reported she had grown so comfortable with the idea of just having a Mac that she never really thought she'd have to learn about using it to the extent she has in the past few weeks.
And another user, in exasperation after being bitten by "Error 10810" for the last time, simply shouted, "This is Mac for God's sake!"
The Ultimate All-in-One security suite you can find, It's was on the Mac for God's sake!
You can make it happen by goto http://store.apple.com/us
Score: -3
|I'm going to go into a completely unrelated area before I make my point so bear with me...
At sometime last year my wife submit me to a painful show where couples/people went around looking for homes and apartments to buy with big shot real estate agents. On this particular eps. there so happened to be this one couple who wanted to live in a specific area. To my horror, they closed on a 700+ thousand 600 square foot apartment. My jaw literally fell in dismay and wonderment, as I myself would never even CONSIDER a 600 square foot apartment and I especially wouldn't consider it at 700000 dollars. For that amount of money I'd better be getting something with 5 bedrooms with each bedroom being at least 600 sq ft., I mean hell, I want a mansion-esque home for 700000+ of my dollars. And they plopped it down for 500?!! It boggled my mind.
Well, this is why Apple is fine. They cater to and have a fan base that is 100% willing to buy and use whatever they slap in their computers as long as it has the style and 'build' (ie: alum./steel/metal look, white/black etc.)....basically as long as it has the Apple 'flavor' and style and logo. Apple knows this.
So did the person/company selling that apartment. They knew that it was in a key location where either people who REALLLLLLLLLLLY want/need it would shell for it, blood and sweat or people who are just basically using money to clean their butts and therefore wouldn't care about the price/value, as long as they had a space in the area that they wanted.
I'm not saying that Apple is selling garbage by any means. They're good laptops and computers with a good OS....albeit in my eyes, overpriced. But see, *I* don't matter. People like me don't matter. They aren't catering to the value minded. They are appealing to people who absolutely need the cool factor, and who will pay for it despite whatever else is on the market. They're appealing to those who pride themselves on being artistic, critical, different, unique and they're selling and marketing products based on these factors, NOT value.
Most of all, they're appealing to the Generation Y and Z who are coming into the world, and their own in this day and age. Growing up on Ipods, and Iphones and thus, crying to Mom or Dad for IMacs and Macbooks and feeling entitled because just like that, they're a part of a lifestyle, an exclusive club and to *swoosh* the Mac Experience. We've all heard this when Apple users are asked why they're willing to buy an Ipod or Macbook at pretty much a premium compared to say, another brand mp3 player or laptop.
In the end, problems with OSX....temporary are not, won't phase their sales numbers, and won't hurt their bottom line by any means. As long as the young adults, teens and kids of the world don't disappear all of a sudden, that means millions of potential buyers.
Score: 0
|Your story is nice, but the conclusion is wrong. The only guaranteed survivors in the biz world are those that sell the best bang-for-buck. Walmart, for example, is one of only few companies to have actually made more money through the financial crisis.
So Apple must be very careful about pricing and spending, and public perception. I personally believe Apple stock value is a bubble that will burst sometime in the next few years. Sony makes just-as-sexy premium brand PCs very comparable in hardware quality to Macs. So a person with lotsa cash to throw has plenty of options other Apple's products. Apple isn't selling apts that they can lower and raise price all day long on individual properties based on immediate market trends. Apple will always have fans but whether those fans will be enough to keep the company alive is highly doubtful.
Score: -1
|A very important part of my post was the importance of public perception. What do you think Apple is doing when they slam Microsoft in practically every Mac vs. PC commercial? What do you think they're doing by putting together Ipod as with extremely colorful backgrounds, trendy music and kids jumping around dancing? What do you think they're doing with those "there's an app for that" commercial?....and those games on the Ipod touch ones? They're keeping visible to Gen Y and Z. They're practically brainwashing the demographic they know who sit there to watch certain very specific shows after homework, or fresh home from school, or relaxing for a packed day of class tomorrow.
When's the last time you saw a Vaio commercial? Even if you have....can you relate the Vaio to Itunes or the Iphone in any way?....even though Itunes has a Windows cousin, young people relate more to the fact that these devices are Apple branded and respond by buying Apple computers.
My cousin loves her HP but she wants a Macbook because "it's cool". I myself would buy a Macbook over a Vaio at the same price points because at least the Macbook can also run Windows, the Vaio can't run OSX.
And no, Apple can't and won't lower prices. But you bet your butt that if they EVER introduce, say, a netbook or a tablet or etc. to the market, that it will demand a premium vs. it's non-Apple counterpart, and that's why John Hodgman is smiling. They're making their money either way. For every 2 $500 laptops Gateway/Acer/HP/Dell sells, Apple is selling ONE Macbook. For every 2 $900 Premium PC Gateway/Acer/HP/Dell sells, Apple is selling ONE Imac.
In summary, I'm trying to say that they aleady have their select few of 2-3 generations of people already convinced that Apple is the best. And as long as they can keep that going, along with the quite a few 'leakers' who buy ipods and iphones but aren't necessarily into the 'lifestyle', then Apple is quite OK, even if OSX misfires or said products blow up every now and again. They're fine.
Score: 1
|Apple isn't that special and people aren't that dumb, nor are they loyal in any way shape or form. People will IMMEDIATELY switch to no-brand-name as soon as their pocket feels a little light.
And I doubt there's less than 5% of Mac users who wanna deal with dual-booting into Windows, dealing with missing data they only have on their "other OS", missing software that exists only on the "other OS" etc. So the exception to the rule won't make or break Apple. The non-exception to the rule WILL eventually break Apple, since a top-end Sony (or some other quality manufacturer) will prove the "Mac are better" myth by simply pre-installing and pre-configuring a Windows machine to be just as simple and automatic as a Mac, without the MAJOR incompatibility issues.
Apple's days are numbered and no matter how much cash they throw on marketing, the "cool" effect wears off really fast so even those "brainwashed" kids that try a Mac, will very soon be disappointed by SOMETHING in that "perfect" machine, and land back on earth.
Score: -2
|I have been using a MacBook Pro for the last two years. I run Windows XP in a virtual machine to support many engineering / technical applications that are available only for Windows. My reason for doing so is that I need a rock stable platform for an engineering consulting business. I am certainly not part of generation X, Y or Z since I am on the wrong side of 60 years old. I am not after eye candy but rather reliability I can depend on and the ability to run multiple operating systems simultaneously and share data.
Also I would like to clear up the real reason John Hodgman is smiling. The author is wrong, it's just gas ; > ).
Score: 0
|Mac OS X Snow Leopard, the world's most advanced operating system, is faster, more reliable, and even easier to use—with next-generation technologies that enhance your entire Mac experience from installation to shutdown.
From a Apple email.. LOL
Score: 0
|LOL
Score: 0
|Substitute the 'Mac' references with 'Windows 7', and I think you've nailed it.
Score: -1
|I'm new to mac and my intro was my brand new MacBook Aluminum dropping my wireless connection. Now you have it, now you don't! Then it's back again. The guys at my local mac store think I'm crazy and that it's my DSL router. My old PC laptop never dropped my DSL signal. Do you think if I showed them this article, they'd believe me? How do you post a formal complaint with Apple?
Score: 1
|Sorry.. Apple is the ONLY hardware company where you can NOT return a DOA device. Apple will always give you a new repaired unit.
Yes I have been successful in getting a return from my vendor.. But it was a fight!
Score: -2
|This is what I'd do personally: get the name of the store manager, tell him you're going to dispute the credit card charge on that crappy machine if they cannot fix it right away, show him the article, and make him fix it within a week. No fixie -- no money. Your credit card company will side with you. If they don't, drop them and get an AmEx card -- they will ALWAYS side with the customer, even if he's WRONG/LYING. ;)
Score: -2
|Did you contact Apple Technical Support? They will likely be able to resolve your issue. There are a number of possible causes at work here. I have Snow Leopard on a MacBook Pro and have no such problem. I'm guessing it is software driver compatibility issue.
Score: -1
|Not to worry, apple will fix it in no time
it'll be like a small bump, most of mac user will never experience this tiny bump.
and windows user are making a big fuss, look which o.s has virus since its birth?
anyway osx is still the most advanced o.s
no virus
no trojans
no worms
and no loads of crapy pop-up, it just works!
pure genius!
why go with all the trouble for?
make today your best christmas ever
http://store.apple.com/us
Score: -7
|pure genius? or pure < 15% of market share yielding little to no gain for someone investing time to write a virus to infect a target OS.
i also never recall ms over-looking a bug that would wipe out user data, or fail to migrate user data during an upgrade process. seems that the quality control department over at apple needs to see some change. i will admit that mac users often report fewer "trivial" problems that pcs encounter, but is this an attribute of a quality product or again the < 15% of users actually using it.
i think we could go on and on about how one is better than the other, and of course skew our perceptions to satisfy our point, but my point is they aren't perfect, they just haven't been targeted.
Score: 1
|It was an upgrade to fix a bug.....and now they are losing data over it.
Who cares if you should back-up? That's not the point here. You and I know that 95% of all casual computer users don't backup anything, whether PC or Mac. (Percentage not factual, just making a point. ;) )
This wouldn't be as big of a deal, and people wouldn't be writing about it as much if it weren't for the fact that Apple and its Mac users trump up Mac to be God's gift to the Tech world.
Put into realistic parameters, and Mac is a normal OS, that has problems just like any other.
Score: -1
|I've been using Apple equipment for a long time and I always want to wait until 10.x.4 arrives to be safe because the developers at Apple just don't seem to get things smoothed out until that point.
I don't have Snow Leopard because my machine is too old but since Avie Tevanian left the company, development has been uneven and Leopard is still, more than 2 (3.5?) years after its initial development, is still broken. The trouble is, there aren't any good alternatives.
I feel sorry for Mac users, in general, who have lost their data but not for the Mac fanatics who can never see any wrong from Cupertino.
Score: 0
|i like how this article was written as if the sidekick (a microsoft product) didn't just eat a whole bunch of people's data.
Score: -10
|Yeah, it'd be even funnier if the sidekick had a Microsoft OS or was, like, at all relevant to this topic. ;)
Score: 6
|Relevancy aside (mind you, Danger wasn't using any MS software anyway)....MS/Danger and Tmobile have gotten back most if not all Sidekick users data.
Let's see Apple get back their users data.
Score: 1
|I've heard it from a reliable source that Fatty's system was erased. RIP Fatty.
Score: 9
|LMAO!! maybe he will find a way to make it out to a Cyber Cafe and use a PC to post.
Score: 5
|He must be fixing kernel panics that endangered os is giving to him or might got his system hacked and lost all his projects (edited videos and photos)
Score: 5
|Oh that was good. Def. thumbs up to you sir.
Score: 4
|I need more technical details... For example, say this problem occured on my little PC... First thing I'd do is TURN THE ph***ING THING OFF RIGHT-QUICK AND IMMEDIATELY WHIP OUT AN EXTERNAL HARDDRIVE AND SOME RECOVERY SOFTWARE.
Can't be the Mac crap wasn't recoverable. The honorable thing would have been for Apple to DO THE RECOVERY FOR THEIR USERS IF AT ALL TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE.
So, was it? and if not, why wasn't it possible to recover the lost data? Something in the file system? What?
Score: 1
|And exactly what happens when you roll the dice. I love innovating things and releasing them quickly. But, it usually comes at the cost of QA. Microsoft has a massive QA department that checks every driver shipped and so forth. It's the drivers added on later that have the most issues.
Skipping any part of this process can have bad results on a company.
Of course, the fanatics that are Mac fans will forgive. That reminds me of the friend who told me to get an iPhone and never said a word about cut and paste missing! BTW, his wife absolutely hates his phone and all it's stupid applications. He is always messing with some stupid app instead of talking. So, I'll pass for now! ;)
Score: 1
|My friend is the same way... his family is all about apple (iPhones, iPods, Macs, etc... and all I ever hear is how much the product doesn't do this and doesn't do that and on and on... Now, this latest news has him scared to even touch his Mac... lol
Score: 2
|If push came to shove, Apple's EULA probably wouldn't stand up in court (adhesion contract) and those limitations on liability are only quasi-legal. You may agree to it, but that doesn't make it legally binding, it doesn't make it legal. I just wouldn't want to get in a shoving match with Apple.
Score: 1
|IANAL but I feel you are WRONG. Apple is not "unique" with its disaster-prone products. A "reasonable person" would hear these stories every now and then, as well as hear about harddrives physically failing, flooded premises, stolen property etc, and would understand he has to BACKUP HIS CRAP.
The most a court of law would do is make all data-storing products (incl operating systems) post a warning every X days if the customer's data wasn't backed up and tell him he is strongly advised to back up.
Score: -4
|Wrong.
Other companies as illustrious as apple have been made to pay compensation to plaintifs regardless of their having 'been covered' by the same type of clause in the EULA.
When the firm is international the case can also be raised in europe where the individuals rights carry more weight than those of the faceless corporate trying to evade culpability.
Score: 1
|I have yet to have a Vista problem, 32 or 64bit, with that bad of a problem, or even close to being that bad. Data loss... that's on par with a seriously malicious virus. And that this is likely the result of inadequate/incompetent testing... wow.
Score: 5
|Well you also have critical hardware failure.. aka hard drive crash..
Score: -5
|If you are trying to say only Vista has hard drive failure then you should go back to school. Macs are just as prone to hard drive failure as a PC. And most times these failures are fixable through a little app called spinrite.
Score: 3
|And some people swear that Unix is more secure than the various incarnations of Windows NT. Suckers.
Score: 1
|Ya ya ya.. my toy train falls off the tracks also.. That is why I don't use toy's as a business tool..
But I do have fun with my iPod and Winamp .. good thing I don't have to use that iTunes PIG!!
Score: 4
|I think also those people that state "OSX is the most secure, bug free OS" should be flogged in public... Google "pwn to own" and kindly shut up.
Score: 11
|Look at this:
Charlie Miller: Snow Leopard is less secure than Vista and 7: http://www.neowin.net/ne...ess-secure-than-windows
now that's cool
Score: 4
|I thought Apples "just worked".
"...and it was like, beep beep beep beep beep beep beep..."
Score: 13
|Are there any hints at when Microsoft might release a feature update for IE8 (I mean IE 8.5 or 9)? What do you think when it will happen?
Score: -8
|Not really related to the article but then again, who cares, it works lovely'
Score: -1
|"And another user, in exasperation after being bitten by "Error 10810" for the last time, simply shouted, "This is Mac for God's sake!""
When reading that statement, it describes a lot of Mac users to me. The words "entitlement" and "ignorance" come to mind. So much for "It Just Works" eh?
Score: 16
|At least, the good news is that Macs are nothing but toys, so no one really stores any mission critical data on them... The most anyone could have lost is probably a few Paris Hilton pictures and a couple of Britney Spears songs.
Score: 9
|All computers are "toys" to many of us ;) . But seriously the toy you are probably referring to is OSX. If that's the case throw in Linux or Windows and your "toy" reference doesn't apply. of course if you plan to buy a $2000 white "toy" with an apple logo just to throw Windows or Linux on it, your a lil crazy, or like to spend cash like Paris!
Score: -3
|I have to in part disagree with you there... and this is coming from someone who greatly dislikes MACs... They are still damn good graphics machines.
So there are companies like Disney and Dreamworks and a few others that use MACs still for mission critical items.
Score: -2
|Heh...hope they didn't go into their guest accounts. :p
(Yeah, stupid joke. I know. I modded it down myself, so don't feel bad)
Score: 3
|Hmmm... I cant remember a Windows OS losing user data while doing an in place upgrade because of a bug.
Considering MAC's only account for around 4.5% of desktop computers I would hazard a guess that if roles were reversed and MAC had the desktop market monopoly Microsoft has then Apple would be in really serious trouble now and potentially being sued by companies left right and center for data losses.
“We are aware of the issue, which occurs in extremely rare cases, and we are working on a fix.”
"extremely rare cases" - it's not extremely rare if your the person who has lost your data because of this bug.. Lets see how rare this really is in the next 2 weeks.
Score: 18
|Perhaps you should slow down while reading. You apparently missed the fact that the data is NOT lost.
Score: -18
|"The main problem concerns the apparent fact that Snow Leopard is deleting the wrong data when exiting a Guest account."
"Users who are genuinely trying to restore their data using Time Machine, Apple's built-in backup utility, are discovering it didn't back up their complete contents."
Oops!
Score: 7
|deanrd7,read again, the data is not lost when upgrading from 10.5. Upgrades from other versions are. See "Apple has reportedly acknowledged the existence of a critical data loss error " and "a growing number of users are discovering that the system is deleting the wrong account: Their main user accounts are missing, along with most of the data stored under those accounts" Maybe YOU should slow down while reading!
Score: 11
|Perhaps when they say "extremely rare," they're talking in terms of total computers including PCs, not just upgraded Macs. :)
Score: 1
|"This is Mac for God's sake!" -- apparently a lot of people have a short memory of the System 7.5 age where Macintosh is a short for "Most Application Crashes, If Not, The Operating System Hangs" -- Just because the first few generations of the OS was a success does not mean the later releases would inherit the glory. In fact, this is a classic growing pain for OS to have stability and backward compatibility. Windows went through that, Mac OS is going through that, and guess what, have we heard of the latest fiasco of iPhone OS 3.1.1 crashing many 3G model, and Apple had to put up a new release to fix those issues.
Score: 9
|"Most Application Crashes, If Not, The Operating System Hangs"
Hilarious. Reminds me of this old video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axC-7O4Yq-w
Score: 5
|Windows ME never happened. :)
Score: -2
|He is just another apple puppet. With the release of 7 he might be jobless or act as a puppet for some other comedy shows besides Apple ads. Anyways Snow leopard is the new Vista aka Vista OS X soon to be killed and endangered by Windows 7
Score: 5
|