Does Open Source = Closed Mind?

By Laura DiDio, Guest Columnist

April 15, 2005, 9:36 AM

"What's LI-Nux?"

The question came from my cousin, Mary an art teacher. Mary is the first to acknowledge that she knows little about operating systems and has no interest in them, though she is an avowed Macintosh enthusiast.

"Linux," I said correcting her pronunciation. "It's an operating system, like the Mac OS X. But unlike Windows or Macintosh, it's open source. That means that thousands of people have contributed bits of functionality to the code, so no one owns it and anyone can potentially contribute or modify it and it costs a lot less than software developed by commercial vendors like Microsoft. Why do you ask?" I said.

"Well," Mary said, "I went online, did a search on your name and saw all these articles calling you DiDiot and other names. Why do these people hate you so much?" she asked, puzzled.

"They think I hate Linux and that I'm a 'paid Microsoft shill,'" I replied.

"That's silly," Mary countered, "why would anyone hate an operating system?"

Why, indeed.

It is difficult to ascribe any rational explanation to the vitriolic responses that descend on any reporter, analyst, rival vendor or industry observer that dares to voice any criticism of Linux or open source, no matter how constructive, logical or accurate.

For the record, only a very small portion of individuals engage in such abusive, insulting and divisive rhetoric and activities. The overwhelming majority of the Linux and open source vendors and larger developers are intelligent individuals. They are committed about the value of open source and Linux. They will engage in lively debates, but legitimate Linux and open source aficionados can and do distinguish between spirited dialogue and defamatory diatribe.

Not so the fringe element of extremists.

Woe betide the individual or organization that dares to suggest that Linux or open source is less than perfect. They are greeted with a torrent of abuse from a small, but vocal and extremist element of the open source community. Thereafter, these analysts like myself or reporters, are marked as "enemies" and become objects of opprobrium on various online forums like Groklaw and Slashdot.

When a story or a report, such as Yankee Group's recent 2005 North American Linux Windows TCO Comparison Survey is published, the open source extremists swing into action. Some are not content to castigate or ridicule the objects of their ire in the online forums. They launch letter writing campaigns and frequently e-mail their superiors asking them to fire the reporters or analysts in question.

Clearly, analysts who publish reports and reporters who write news articles are in very public professions. Critical comments and responses -- particularly in the Internet age, where articles are transmitted and circumnavigate the global online community faster than you can say "Magellan" -- are part of the business. The sheer knowledge that technical articles and reports, particularly those that deal with hot topics like Linux and open source, will be read by thousands or millions of people puts us all on notice that the research had better be able to withstand the scrutiny.

Constructive criticism and the ability to point out factual inaccuracies is the right (and some might even say, the responsibility) of readers. As someone who has worked as both a reporter and an analyst, I take this as a given and strive to "get it right the first time" to avoid the barbs.

However the fanaticism of this small faction among the Linux and open source community crosses the line of acceptable behavior.

In addition to the nasty e-mails and name calling, they commit other, more offensive transgressions as well: this analyst as well as several other reporters and analysts have been the target of late night and threatening phone calls to our homes.

There is simply no excuse for this.

The real irony here is that many of the fanaticists fail to read the very news articles and analyst reports they criticize. If they did, they might discover that the reports had many complementary and positive things to say about Linux and open source. Instead, the extremist faction busies itself sending inflammatory and often inaccurate e-mails about the reports.

That was certainly the case with the Yankee Group 2004 Linux, UNIX and Windows TCO Comparison Report and the latest 2005 North American Linux Windows TCO Comparison Report. The study found that the performance, reliability and security of the major Linux distributions compared favorably to Microsoft Windows. Both studies found that users, particularly those migrating away from legacy UNIX networks, were exceedingly pleased with Linux's ability to reduce hardware costs dramatically.

And yet within hours after Yankee Group released the data and the first press coverage appeared, the research report and its contents were swept aside and lost in the ensuing torrent of abuse.

The abuse became the story.

Yankee Group is not alone. Numerous analysts and reporters including Rob Enderle, Maureen O'Gara, Guy Matthews, Mary Jo Foley and Dan Lyons have all been at the receiving end of abusive missives. Last February, London-based security consulting firm Mi2g published the findings of its study that claimed Linux and not Windows networks were the number one target for hackers.

Mi2g soon found itself on the receiving end of abuse from Linux fanatics, which gained as much notoriety as the survey itself. That led company CEO, DK Matei to issue a statement on its Web site stating, "...That any empirical evidence pointing to a high level of online Linux breaches is immediately shot down by religious zealots as if a church had been desecrated."

Fortunately, reason and civility does prevail among the overwhelming majority of Linux and open source vendors, developers and devotees. Most of them don't understand the actions of this fringe element, either.

Telling these people to shut up will produce no results save more negative overwrought communiqués. So this analyst will strive to take the high road and ignore them unless or until the transgressions become criminal.

Laura DiDio is a senior analyst for the Yankee Group consulting firm in Boston. She has covered client and server operating systems, directory services, and OS security for 15 years as an analyst, reporter and editor. Laura DiDio holds a B.A. in Communications and a minor in French from Fordham University.

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By lyinganalyst

posted Jul 16, 2005 - 5:02 PM

Recent events shed some more light on Laura Didio's thought process.

Let's review some old and new facts.

SCO Group made some outrageous claims against Linux and set up an NDA "show" to convince analysts that SCO had the goods and Linux was in trouble.

During this early phase of the SCO affair, Laura Didio was one of SCO's loudest cheerleaders.

During this phase, a lot of analysts were saying SCO has nothing. Laura stuck by her story regardless of all the arguments.

Now it's 2 years later. A judge has ordered SCO, TWICE, to show IBM all of SCO's "evidence".

BOTH TIMES SCO gave IBM nothing. NOTHING.

FURTHER, In responding to some motions, judge Kimball wrote that he was "astonished" (his words) that "SCO has produced no competent evidence".

Those a re the old facts. The new fact is ::

Now, in July 2005 an email memo was released, written by a Santa Cruz employee and addressed to SCO's Reg Broughton (who passed it on to Darl McBride) saying that THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO INFRINGEMENT IN LINUX.

So, Laura was lied to. The lies matched her pre-existing anti-Linux bias. She bought the lies hook, line and sinker AND CHEER-LED FOR SCO.

Despite being given ample evidence that SCO lied to her.

Instead of attacking those who LIED TO HER, she is attacking those who tried to correct her, those who tried to get the truth out.

After all the evidence that is now available, does she apologize? Does she print any mea culpas? of course not. I predicted this many times (even in the comments below from early May, when I wrote that Laura is incapable of admitting she's wrong).

Laura Didio's credibility and judgement ability is in the crapper. Her gullibility knows no bounds (especially when it supports her pre-existing anti-Linux biases).

Based on any reasonbale reading of her past output, Laura Didio's opinions and "research" are absolutely worthless.

Score: 0

By LarryFeltonJ

edited May 10, 2005 - 2:54 PM

I'm genuinely sorry if there's a lack of civility toward you Ms. Didio. As a supporter and admirer of
the GPL, I obviously have significant disagreements with you (as well as getting sore eyes from the eyerolls I do at some of your ad libs -- "Pass the hookah").

I'm interested in knowing how the late night phone calls would compare with the over-the-top intrusion on Pamela Jones and her family carried out by Ms. O'Gara recently. As far as I can tell it crossed the line into stalking and facilitating stalking (photos of PJ's mailbox and her mother's home). I'm not condoning the adolescent behavior of many of the more zealous Linux supporters, but I'd like some indication from other folks who have been identified with the anti-FSF camp that the O'Gara article was deranged and foolish.

Statements from the Yankee Group, SCO, and Microsoft making it clear that they in no way condone the endangerment of PJ (and perhaps suggesting to Ms. O'Gara that she may need therapeutic intervention) would go a long way toward convincing this aging sysadmin that the people opposed to Free Software and the GPL are truly interested in civil discourse.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted May 20, 2005 - 9:57 PM

Ms Didio wrote that she works hard to "get it right the first time." Did you really believe that?

In the same vein, when Ms Didio wrote she was taking the high ground, did you really expect her to? I think Val Kreidel could tell you a thing or two about Ms Didio's concept of taking the high ground.

Score: 0

By unit2202

posted Apr 19, 2005 - 10:12 AM

This has to be one of the best threads I have ever read. It has some pretty strong ideas from both camps. Some a little over zealous, but all in all, a very good read. Hell, it even drew politics into the mix.

I thought about chirpping in my 2 cents on the MS -v- Linux debate, but then decided against it. I am still waiting for OS2 Warp to make a comeback!!! Then we will see who is the REAL King. Until then, my typewriter rules!

Score: 0

By unoengborg

posted Apr 18, 2005 - 9:25 PM

If you are a good analyst you get the results that the one who hires you want. This is nothing strange, everybody knows that. Look at the estate tax in the US, nobody objected much as it sounded like something rich people payd when they died. But when some lobbyist renamed it the death tax the public oppinion was all of a sudden against it. I know, and you know,that words are everything

If you ask the right questions to the right people in the right way you can get almost any result you want. If you are an even better analyst you get other people to believe that your findings is somehow related to the truth. If you are really really good, you get people to believe that this truth of yours, have some bearing on their lifes, and organizations. This is why companies like Microsoft, IBM, Red Hat and other orders reports from companies like Yankee Groop as part of their marketing strategy.

To be able to do that, you are greatly helped if you have at least some knowledge of what you are analyzing. E.g. I'm sure that the SCO people was very convicing when they showed you their alledgedly stolen Linux code a year or two ago.

With a little more knowledge you would have been able to see through the SCO scam, at least enough feel motivated to do some legwork and actually check the facts like plenty of people including the US legal system have been doing for quite some time now.

You had the misfortune of being discovered being wrong, and as a result, you were made the model for cluelessness. You even managed having the word didiot, referring to clueless analyst in general called after you. I'm sure that hurt, but complaining about it on the net and in the press is pathetic. People will not believe your stories because they feel sorry for you.

You also have to realize that some of your early statments regarding the SCO case have caused actual financial damage in the early stages of the SCO case when people (including me) still believed there was some ugly secret burried in the Linux code. Consultants may have got less work, companies like Red Had may have experienced less sales. Now wonder they had few kind words to spare for you.

Score: 0

By KenJennings

edited Apr 19, 2005 - 12:57 AM

Does anyone recall Ms Didio retracting her claim that SCO showed Linux code stolen from Unix? I don't recall reading about it. Given the volumes published about SCO's "proof" by the people who know the code and where it came from, isn't it about time she admits she's wrong? If she already has recanted her opinion I'd love for someone to prove me wrong.

If it was a quote in a blog by one of those extremist Microsoft nutjobs, then everyone would have ignored it. However, the problem is that she has said what she said under the guise of claiming to be an industry expert. Now that everyone and their cousin has irrefutably proven her statements about as factually wrong as anyone can be on the subject (in other words, a lie), it raises a few possibilities.

1) She lied on purpose. Some people will do some fibbing about things they view unimportant, but normal, honest people won't lie about something major that others know about unless they believe they have a tremendous amount to gain.

2) She lied on accident. The problem here is that she claims to be an industry expert. Having been demonstrated incompetent to evaluate important "facts" about an important event to the industry doesn't say anything positive about her expertise. Who's going to pay someone like that to do any "analysis" for them?

3) Someone forced her to say it. She had no choice. Someone was holding a gun to her head. Her family would be in danger otherwise. So, who would be desperate enough to threaten a reporter to invent bad news about linux? Does anyone believe this is possible? I thought not.

The funny part is that Ms Didio doesn't seem to grasp why what she said was wrong, and that any resonable person would think she's gone crazy or lives in Bill Gates pocket. Figuratively, she stood up in public claiming to be an expert on geography and then pronounced the world flat. It is not surprising that she is the butt of jokes, since she did it to herself.

Score: 0

By fewt

edited Apr 18, 2005 - 10:29 PM

Here is a fine example of how an inaccurate, wrong, or biased report can effect a brand, causing catastrophic losses leading to layoffs or worse.

http://www.local6.com/news/4389056/detail.html

It is absolutely vital that these so-called analysts report accurately using up to date data from the best possible sources, and not necessarily the sources that they are paid to use.

Score: 0

By Portal3

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 10:56 AM

I may have missed the news completely, other than the nice personal bit on "don't be bias".
I'd like to see some OS news...

Score: 0

By JudahGabriel

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 6:08 PM

According to BetaNews, "The overwhelming majority of the Linux and open source vendors and larger developers are intelligent individuals."

Oh, you mean only people like Linux creator Linux Torvalds knife-ripped into Samba creator Anthony Tridgell for trying to reverse-engineer Bitkeeper? (http://www.theregister.c...rvalds_attacks_tridgell/)

Or maybe you meant how OSS leader Bruce Perens insulted Larry McVoy, calling him an ungraceful fool that needs to "shut the hell up"? (http://www.theregister.c...rvalds_attacks_tridgell/)

Or perhaps you were thinking more along the lines how Perens slammed Linus Torvalds, calling him a devisive idiot.

The Linux and open source software communities are comprised largely of biased, prejudiced Slashdotters that sit there as captain keyboards in the mom's basement, insulting you on the internet while posting anonymously.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 7:13 PM

It's called "freedom of speech".

You may not like it but a few guys named Jefferson, Franklin et. al. thought it was a pretty good idea.

Take it up with them.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 8:42 PM

Does your freedom give you the right to infringe on the rights of others?

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 8:42 PM

The "It called Freedom" rule is a good way to condemn actions below, but encourage them above.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 8:47 PM

Again, these "inalienable rights" do not include tracking someone down at home, hostile calling, intimidation through writing, or threatening them in anyway. We hold these things to be true!

Not one "Free Linux Extremest" (Changed from Linux fan. I am a fan when it comes to RedHat or SUSE, but they are not free.) has condemned these actions. If this were a writer for the New York Post or LA Times regardless of the article, you would be demanding heads roll. Police would be involved.

Do you condemn the threats and the home phone calls?

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 8:42 AM

"Not one Linux fan has condemned these actions"

uhh, excuse me?!

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 12:46 AM

Neither the post I was replying to nor my reply talked about threats.

There's more proof of your reading ability. Get back to your cats and your pit bulls.

>> Do you condemn the threats and the home phone calls?

I have several times.

And since YOU bring up threats and I CAN read, I'll reply to that, too.

the person I was replying to was complaining about a debate between Linus Torvalds and Bruce Perens and suggesting a lively debate is the same as calling Didio at home.

>> Not one Linux fan has condemned these actions.

Completely false. All the Linux sites have a consistent and continually repeated editorial policy asking these people not to do it.

I believe I have done so 2 or three times below,

and on many public forums, many times starting all the way back with the Machrone incident.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 1:02 AM

Now that is deflection (projection for you). The original article and all threads should be based on the original article. If anything I was bringing you back on task. And yes it does mention abuse. And if you use google you can find out about the threats. But, you probably don't need to use google as somehow with a handle of "lyinganalyst" I suspect you are one of the abusers.

Stay on task! Spawning a new thread based on a different subject just adds fluff and leads to the reason why no one is reading your past comments.

Still no condemnation... Still? Search the page, the only time condemn comes up as when people are calling for it condemnation and not once does it appear with someone actually condemning it. Don't site a condemnation on another web site. Condemn it here.

You say you have condemned it twice below. Now that is deflection. You use a shell game without a prize underneath. Where exactly is your condemnation. Where? And, condemn the action by saying you condemn it by using the word.

Regards,

Bubba

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 1:23 AM

such a genius.

Again and again attacking me with zero basis for attack, and again and again being clearly, completely wrong.

Never occured to you to search this page (that's control-F, genius) for "excuse" or "calling" or "home" and other such words.

No, of course not.

You can stop projecting YOUR 300 cats onto me now, bubba.

EDIT - I just searched & found one condemnation, from yesterday. So I was wrong, I thought I'd done it twice.

So here- Here and now I condemn people calling Laura at home. Don't do it.

I have NO PROBLEM doing that. I've done it before & will do it again if needed.

> And, condemn the action by saying you condemn it by using the word.

Let me introduce you to a general concept in searching - search for the most general non-noise words first. If those produce too much volume, go to specialized words. Something I learned before grade 8 while using encyclopedias.

Remedial reading 101 time for you.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 8:45 PM

I actually did search for "no excuse" but you were obliged to use "no-excuse"? Must be time for you to go back and get that remedial education class you keep speaking of... No dash required. Condemning an action is the speaking out against it. And, I do have to give you points for doing it. So, that brings you back to 200 cats. I still like giving you a cat rating.

You give me too much credit that all I want is to prove you wrong. You do that for me. I don't have time to search for like words. And saying no excuse vs condemning something, well lets just say I don't believe the are synonyms. I actually consider no-excuse as coddling.

I am not sure if you call me Bubba because of your upbringing or because Bubba was your school bully. But, I assure you that their are plenty of fine people in the country that go by Bubba. I assure you there is no reason to "flex" and talk about how tough you are in this string. I believe you already, if that helps.

Regards,

Bubba

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 2:55 AM

After I showed all your BS & bluster for the BS that it is that's the best you can do.

snicker ...

Get back to your cats and pit bulls, bubba.
& finish up that remedial reading class someday. You might find it useful.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 5:39 PM

Will do. You IQ and the proof of your IQ are all shown in your writings. I still enjoy the "lyinganalyst" greatest hits. And here they are folks:

* Failure rates on semiconductors does not go up... (do would be better than does, but I'm quoting - back to remedial for you. And, see thread below for the facts on that)
* When you use machines to do useful work that the company was about to throw away how is that a bad deal for the company... (so no warranty, how would the effect TCO? Hmmm!)
* Replace your Hard Drive and you'll be good for years... (Again TCO, how much does that hard drive cost, especially if it is vendor specific - even a 4GB hard drive in a hot plug chassis could cost $1000 from a company like www.ambry.com. Or, you can just wait until you can find one available on www.ebay.com. But, that equals downtime while you wait for the part to arrive.)
* Even if the machine has higher failure rates, so what... (That is pure gold on it's own! This is a TCO string!)

These are all comments from someone posting hatred for a concept that "lyinganalyst" just can't grasp, TCO. It is Total Cost of Ownership. And mostly, I have to say you are costing your company a lot. I wish you luck to not be subject to an analysis inside your company. A spotlight will quickly drop to a painful reality, your misunderstanding of technology does cost your organization money!

Good Luck,

Bubba

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted May 20, 2005 - 9:58 PM

Apologies to readers for this long post.

IDMan, like Laura Didio, you started with a bias (your repeated comments about nothing being free are a nice echo to Ms Didio's hookah comments). Like Laura Didio, your preconceived notions tripped you up. You did not disappoint. Given enough rope to apply to yourself, you didn't disappoint ... You never refuted any of my original post and point, that my use of Linux yielded my employer huge benefits. And at the same time you made a lot of straw man and non-sequitur arguments, and took a lot of things out of context. (if you reply to this I expect more of the same from you ... please don't disappoint[1].)

Sigh ... let me try to unravel your misrepresentations and convolutions.
Here's the original post with one added detail (the specific use)
I took a machines that were about to be tossed out and set them up to provide services to a group of internal users. One service was file & print, another service was indexing the entire codebase and making it available as HTML for all the developers. This could not have been done under Windows. Nothing under windows and almost nothing on the commercial market did that function when I made it available using free tools in 1997.

Here's my best stab at a cost/benefit analysis, which I originally left out because I thought anyone could work out realistic numbers. And it has to be specific to this case because doing this project under Windows was impossible at the time.

total Costs, almost zero (I don't expect IDMan to get this, though.)
Machines - free/sunk cost (they about to be thrown away after 2 years of use.)
my administration time - all done after hours, free to the company.
my pension/air conditioning/ etc ... inapplicable to calculating return on investment in this case. Why? these are already paid for, for me to do my regular job. It cost the company nothing, marginally/incrementally.
power - the only cash cost the company paid. 30 to 40 watts (PII, 2 hard drives, no monitor). Negligible.

total benefits, very, very conservatively, at least $8,000 (5 years later I described the system to a web consultant, who said that's what he would charge, minimum, just for an initial web setup with no extras or analysis, just a straight setup-job. In fact the system I did had a lot of extras and would have been a lot more expensive). That consultant also said, "Maintenance extra", which I did for free. So add on maintenance costs, $400/month (guesstimate consulting rates for the occasional 2-4 hours, give or take) and take that pro-rate NPV back to 1997. $20,000 total benefit (I'm being very, very conservative, I feel the real benefit was much greater, especially since there was also much more than simple web-setup.).

TCO/return on investment - almost zero investment, with substantial benefits (though the dollar value is peanuts, relatively). You do the math. Figure into this TCO that this project could not have been done any other way at that time.

Here's your list back at you, with the context added back.

IDMan * Failure rates on semiconductors does not go up... (do would be better than does, but I'm quoting - back to remedial for you. And, see thread below for the facts on that)

me: nice out of context quote. I was using 2 year old computers. Semiconductors fail at a high rate at the start of their life, then the failure rate drops and stays low for many years. Failure rate does not rise again until 6, 7 years later.

IDMan * When you use machines to do useful work that the company was about to throw away how is that a bad deal for the company... (so no warranty, how would the effect TCO? Hmmm!)

Me: non-sequitur. If the machine died the company would be no worse off than originally, but until the machine died the company was getting enormous return on investment. So again, you COMPLETELY FAILED to refute my point. All that buster and venom and bile, all to no effect whatsoever. I originally gave enough information that you could have done the ROI/TCO calculation yourself. Instead of taking 10 seconds to do the calculation, your own need to aggressively insult me got in your way, preventing you from seeing the cost/benefit analysis.

IDMan * Replace your Hard Drive and you'll be good for years... (Again TCO,

me: Again, the costs had been paid and sunk. The machine was about to be thrown away. You'll need to look up sunk costs, since you obviously know nothing about financial calculation. Again, it would have taken you 10 seconds to do a back-of-the-envelope calculation to appreciate the return on investment that Linux provided in this context. Instead, in your aggressive anger you just plunged into an attack, throwing in anything you thought might score points, losing sight of the original argument. Well, keep at it, IDMan - keep talking about TCO while not understanding a lick about it. Let Gartner do your thinking (such as it is) for you. They could not possibly do it any worse than you do.

IDMan * Even if the machine has higher failure rates, so what... (That is pure gold on it's own! This is a TCO string!)

me: you ignore context again, display lack of financial knowledge again. Say it with me ... "sunk cost". Until the machine failed the company was reaping enormous return on investment. Astronomical ROI.

Oh, wait, I forgot, you don't understand "context". You can spout dozens of times about TCO & "return-on" (investment or equity or whatever) but cannot do a 10 second back of the envelope calculation, preferring to spout non-sequiturs and venom instead.

IDMan * These are all comments from someone posting hatred for a concept that "lyinganalyst" just can't grasp, TCO.

me: anyone reading the entire exchange, in context, will understand who "grasps" TCO and who doesn't.

IDMan >> hatred. It is Total Cost of Ownership. And mostly, I have to say you are costing your company a lot. I wish you luck to not be subject to an analysis inside your company. A spotlight will quickly drop to a painful reality, your misunderstanding of technology does cost your organization money!

me: bzzzzzt. At that company I got continual raises, always the highest raises in that department. Several managers familiar with my performance who left the company tried to recruit me away, several times per year, until we lost touch.

Now, for someone who claims to know a lot about TCO, tryo to explain this away, without your usual non-sequiturs, straw men, venom and bile.

http://www.forbes.com/ho...02/03/27/0327linux.html
http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-1014287.html

These companies FORGET MORE about TCO and ROI IN ONE DAY than you and Gartner will ever learn IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFETIMES.

Merrill Lynch, Salomon, Citigroup, all the universities and corporate research centers with Linux clusters, embedded Linux, Point of Sale Linux, and so on, and so on, and so on, are all dummies. But you, (genius that thou art), are far superior to all of them, obviously. Of course, you hope that none of those IT departments get audited, because you and Gartner know that they're all losing money for their companies. Get a grip, dude.

As to your claim that I hate TCO, you are again WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I LOVE TCO. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Every time real TCO has been done, Linux wins. Read those two links again. Gartner does not do real TCO. All their studies that have been made public have been proven to be biased. It got so bad in one instance (for Yankee I believe) that the CEO had to make a public apology and swear to tighten up quality controls and tighten up bias control.

And how do you suppose Linux got started at those companies, who are now saving millions of dollars by using Linux? In most companies Linux use starts the way I introduced it in my story, and it builds from there. Of course, if you were boss none of those millions in savings would ever materialize because you've out-sourced your brain to Gartner. That ought to work out fine for you. Gartner can't possibly do a worse job of thinking than you (unless they outsource their thinking to Yankee ...).

Oh, and since you worship Gartner so much, how did it feel when Gartner told you to get off IIS, YEARS after the Linux community was telling you that IIS security is terrible? Your obsequious fawning over Gartner must mean that you're exstatic about getting years-stale information.

For all your wind about TCO I did not see anything in any of your posts to show you actually understand TCO. All you've shown is that you know how to drag in straw men, non-sequiturs and out-of-context BS. Throwing out words like "five nines", "generator backup" with your usual aggressive, insulting style may make you feel good. But when such things are not needed (they were definitely not needed in the case I was discussing, the case you claim lost my company money) bringing them up just makes you look extremely silly.

And before you trot out your own TCO calculation (I know how on-topic and on-point it will be ... hah!!!)

1. look up "sunk costs".

2. find an alternative to compare against. TCO by itself is meaningless unless compared with something else. That'll be kind of hard for you since what I did was extremely difficult, if not IMPOSSIBLE under Windows at the time. I know because that company had Windows developers with all the MS tools, and before that job I had done Delphi/FoxPro/VB/MSVC development myself and was familiar with many of the 3rd party tools available at the time.

3. Even if the tools to do it had been available under Windows I would not have done it (neither would the MS users I just mentioned - they were continually asking me about Linux and really could care less about learning more MS development). I was and am curious about Linux. I would have no motivation to give my company free Windows administration time.

After all that (if the abused reader is still with me), even though the TCO/ROI calculation supports the use of Linux, TCO itself is an invalid concept in this context. The whole point is, people don't do things using Windows and then say "look at this cool thing I did. It's so incredibly useful and valuable."

People don't experiment and play with Windows tools the way they do with Linux. That's one of the reasons all the newest, coolest computing has been coming out on Linux first for several years now. Curious, motivated people are not drawn to Windows as they are to Linux. Having Linux available provides so many intangible benefits it's ridiculous. The intangible benefits of Linux, this "enabler/experimenter" effect, makes a lot of TCO (not all, but many) comparisons just silly.

When people like Didio do their biased, slanted studies and write their tripe, the companies that listen to them are losing out. Big time.

Oh, one last, LAST thing ... if you come back & try to argue that you were arguing a general case about TCO, not this specific case ... nice try. You claimed in several places my company lost value in the specific projects I wrote about. You mentioned Pentium II enough times that trying to squirm out from under your own words using "I was arguing the general case" will be seen as ridiculous as the rest of your venom-filled response to me.

Why you've behaved this way (venom, bile, naked aggression) is your business. I can only guess that like Laura Didio you've let your pre-judged, pre-conceived biases color all your dealings in Linux.

[1] let me list them again for you
non-sequiturs (warrantees where none are required & where warrantees make no sense)
non-sequiturs (stand-by generators where none are required)
straw men, name-calling ("IT newbie", "theocracy")

This is not an exhaustive list. Your arguments are so chock-full of invalid arguments and argument techniques, they're just laughable.

Don't let a total loss stop you from claiming you've "won", though - you do that well (the claiming, not the winning).

Score: 0

By dotNET_theFuture

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 5:02 PM

I agree with you partially.But the real truth is that a majority of the Linux community believes in net hooliganism.Only a handful,like execs in top companies and so on who have little contacts with the community except for business are cultured. From the beginning itself the trend in the open source(to gain a space for themselves), was to repeat lies, and that too forcefully, tactfully and very loudly,hoping that this repetition and drum beating would fool ordinary people to finally accept their lies as truth.Actually they have done nothing,innovated nothing,except trying to reinvent the wheel and that too mostly by shamelessly copying or reverse engineering what others have done years ago. No wonder they are against patents.To cover their total failure in everything and everywhere, they simply do,what comes to them naturally and easily and for which they should be given copyright protection:discredit,intimidate, spread canards and lies against other people and products.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 10:05 PM

You're more proof that it's not just the Linux crowd that has a fringe element.

No innovation?

Where do you think the Internet came from?

Why do you think MS added Skinning to XP, something Linux had (along with thousands of skins) since the 90s?

Why is MS doing their own bas****ized Linux type development with "Shared Source"?

Oh, yeah, the big New York financial houses are complete dumba**es, to fall for ALL THOSE LINUX LIES. (In case you don't know, ALL the big NY financial firms have large and growing Linux installations).

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 5:03 PM

Prove that it's only OSS followers that do that, and you may actually have an argument.

Score: 0

By kompression

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 4:26 PM

GET A LIFE. IT'S JUST A FREAKIN OS.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 6:43 PM

Thanks for sharing.

When GOD puts you in charge of controlling what people should or should not feel passionate about, let us know.

Until then I'm glad I live in a world where people care about different things.

And you're wrong. It's not JUST an OS.

Its' a gift. Crafted by some of the most talented developers who ever lived.

And every time biased, prejudiced people like Didio publish their biased, prejudiced reports about it, they tarnish a wonderful thing.

Score: 0

By gabworld

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 5:39 PM

>>And you're wrong. It's not JUST an OS.

It is just an OS. It is a very good OS, built on idea from another good OS. Overall, it is a very strong and secure OS. But, it is built by humans, not gods.

You are correct that there are Microheads who are arrogant about Windows. There are also MacHeads who are arrogant about Macs. But, there are plenty of LinuxHeads who are arrogant about Linux. It comes with the territory. There are now three things you do not talk about in a bar while you are drinking: religion, politics and operating systems.

Score: 0

By iDMan

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 11:57 PM

Go out and establish your own Linux Theocracy.

You already have a list of apostles. The creater of Linux, Samba, etc...

Go, go speak the word. They might listen...

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 1:14 AM

Linux theocracy?

Being grateful for getting a gift, and setting the record straight when the gift is slandered means I want to create a theocracy?

Geeeez ... More proof that the anti-Linux folk have just as many name-calling, argumentative, loose nuts as the Linux camp, if not more.

Thanks to you and your comrade for making the point.

And when god appoints you grand overseer of what people are allowed to be passionate about, let us know.

When it happens happens we will all bow down before you, O great and mighty keeper of the one true flame(TM).

Score: 0

By leonbrooks

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 10:31 AM

I didn't listen the first time, so my response is going to be...? Ignore them. [sarcasm weight=heavy] My goodness, it's so simple, why didn't I think of that? [/sarcasm]

Score: 0

By ogman

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 9:54 AM

She thinks it's bad to get some phone calls and e-mails??? I'm pretty sure if she criticized Microsft she'd get calls, too. From their lawyers!

Score: 0

By iDMan

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 1:26 PM

They called them at home. If you think that is acceptible, please post your phone number and email address. And if you want to face the real fanatics, post your address.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 1:58 PM

Is that a threat?

All that talk about cats was projection, wasn't it?

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 11:38 PM

No, the intent was to get you condem the act of calling them at home. Something you just won't do. So if you are not willing to do it, put your money where you mouth is... Post your number. Sorry to disappoint you, but I would not call you. I have rocks in the back yard that would provide a better conversation.

Projection? Seriously, look up words before you use them.

You guys need a dictionary... Heres one:

www.dictionary.com

I believe the word you were looking for is deflection. I encourage you to use it instead.

Again, debate is a delicate balance of intelligence and control of emotion. You are showing neither.

I would say you just hit your 250 cat limit. And, I would wager that your neighbors are wondering what that smell is... But don't worry, the Channel 5 news is on the way.

Your hatred is such that you got a handle of "lyinganalyst." You shortly followed by insulting anyone that uses the forum and has a nickname of Bubba. I would wager that with the numbers out on this forum, you probalby insulted somebody. But for me, I will take it as a complement and sign all future messages to you as Bubba. Please get your web site up soon. I look forward to visiting. My understanding is it will be located at the url below...

www.thebackofmycerealbox.com

Regards,

Bubba

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 12:53 AM

Yup, projecting.

And plainly, clearly, wrong, as well.

I've written several times on this board condemning the phone calls at home and the threats.

Score: 0

By iDMan

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 5:17 PM

Do something bold... Step out of your basement and into the sun. I would recommend Military Grade SPF 60 or higher sunscreen. It goes on white, but with that basement complection you have been working on since your late teens, it will look just as your skin looks. To avoid the birds from attacking, I strongly recommend shaking off the potato chip crumbs.

Good luck!

Regards,

Bubba

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted May 20, 2005 - 10:03 PM

Sigh ....

I wish I had stuck around instead of tiring of your continual BS.

Who knows, if I had stuck around and goaded you a little more, all that hate, venom and bile building up in your head might have given us a "David Cronenerg's Scanners" moment ; ) .

I might suggest you seek help (anger management & hate control techniques) but of course in your usual fashion you'll project onto me and tell me to seek help.

Good luck, Bubba/IDMan. You really, really need it (and some professional help).

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 8:45 PM

Hrm, this is a personal attack. Note the rules above.

Score: 0

By han_solo

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 9:35 AM

Sorry to break the news to you, but its not JUST a bunch of radical young linux fanatics or whatver your under some delusion that are out to get you...

I work for a fortune 40 company full of 30-50 something IT professionals, and I can get a whole group of them in the office together and take a poll and at least 3/4's of them will know who you are and will know your nickname. I have heard serious work for a living IT pros in their 40's use the term "didiot" as a description for others its become such a common phrase.

The fact is you earned it, and your going to have to live with it.

Any 30-50 year old IT pro that knows whats really going on knows your a joke and that your company is a joke.

But the real fact of the matter here is, that you have ZERO CREDIBILITY with ANYONE in the Linux community. So, you have NO BUSINESS being quoted by any real journalist in any articles about Linux. If any journalist wants any real IT professionals(I assume thats who their marketing too) to take their article seriously then quoting you is going to make us turn away from their publications.

I get publications like computerworld free delivered to my desk at work every week working at a fortune 40, but if ZD, Computerworld etc.. want us IT pros to keep taking them seriously and keep taking the time to read their publications, they need to stop quoting you, otherwise we are just going to think even less of them than we do now.

Score: 0

By cmdrwhitewolf

edited Apr 18, 2005 - 12:09 PM

I've never really read much of anything from ms. Laura DiDo previous to this, so I came into this... "shouting match?"... relatively untainted.

But I have to say that Han Solo seems to have a point, because when I decided (on a impulse) to check out his claim of "DiDiot" being in common use (on the net), besides the usual detritus that gets dug up, I hilariously came upon a Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didiot), which pretty definitively proved his point.

Not to mention when I looked up the reference to her resume, I noticed that she'd worked for the Tribune in the past, and was able to pull up a few of her articles for my own reference. And was able to quickly form my own opinion.

I should also mention that I too get free ZD publications sent to me and also have the same concerns as he does about taking ZD stuff seriously. (And canceling them, whenever they've fallen to the level of spam. Particularly with examples such as this one to prove out my concerns.)

Basically, this whole thing boils down to one issue, and that's - if it looks, smells, and quacks like a duck, perhaps it really is a goll danged duck for pete's sake. Plus, it's pretty obivious (to me at least) that all this article is, is just another churn to keep the home fires going.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 5:13 AM

I am pro Open Source, and though I try to use reason versus spite, I am willing to believe some/most of your claims are true.

I just want to say to those that use absurd actions to attempt to debate, you will lose. People will either see right through it or they will be left confused. Let's not forget that even Richard Stallman, Free Software Foundation, suggests that you are not free when the only thing you factor in selecting software is wheather or not it is open source.

FSF is community driven rather than business driven. People helping others for a satisfaction greater than wealth and greed. Receiving optional payments to further development - allowing others to enjoy his/her contributed help/work, rather than being customer drivin.

Welcome and educate all, and be open to others' teachings, don't egg those that disagree - you both don't learn anything that way. That goes for either side. What works for one doesn't always work for another, but if you help others know that decent alternative exists, including how to use the alternatives then they have an appreciaction and a choice. Currently, I like having both linux and windows, I am free to choose which is the best tool for each task.

something to ponder: I'm proud to say I have a legal copy of Linux, and Windows. How many of those OS extremists can say that their copy is legal? I've talked to a number of people with pirated copies of windows.

Score: 0

By nate

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 8:59 AM

Great points. Although I think the FSF and Stallman are practically on the fringe themselves sometimes. We had an interview with a top FSF official who refused to speak to us unless Linux was prefaced with "GNU/".

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 11:51 AM

I'm sorry, that is rediculous. They need to grow up.

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 2:52 PM

It might seem rediculous, but they just want credit too... GNU is half of and Linux is half, people are referring to Linux as the whole, which is wrong. I personally wouldn't mind a whole name change combining the two, something simple like GNux or GNix to give both credit. Keep in mind, Linux is just the name of the Kernel, other people have just adopted the name for the whole system.

And this exactly what I was referring to: why call it rediculous and say things such as "they need to grow up." These statements are likely to cause someone come back at you with a meaningless attacks back at you, just cause they disagree. Please understand where I'm coming from.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 3:04 PM

Let them attack, do you think it would be the first time I've fended one off? You haven't been around that long if you think so. ;-)

The GNU toolchain is very useful, but it's not 1/2 the OS. If you really want to go there, then it should be GNU/KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/TK/BSD/GPL/Linux

Sounds stupid right? Then you get my point. ;-)

Score: 0

By spiffyjeff

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 7:44 AM

I get your point, I'm thinking maybe I don't know enough to piece it all together find a solution. Maybe a complete name change, one separate that referes to the collection of an OS and GUI and tools, which again. I am under the impression people use the term Linux to refere to all of these when Linux in fact is not. I think I may have hit it on the head now, that there is a lacking term.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 8:46 AM

Here's how I call it.

Ubuntu Linux is Ubuntu

Peanut Linux is Peanut

RedHat Linux is Redhat

etc.

This gives the distributor credit, and when there is confusion I explain it further so it's understood.

Score: 0

By iDMan

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 2:01 AM

I don't care how much you like or dislike an operating system or an opinion, don't call the person writing or stating the comment. Most people in this forum do not understand TCO /RoIT and should never say that the net cost is $0. All costs are considered, hardware, software, support (based on measurement of average support calls), and people costs (including you, your boss, your insurance, your families insurance, your pension, and the amount of work your aren't doing that costs that organization money. And for those of you using free software and incur downtime because of something working incorrectly and no place to go for support beyond a web site and a search engine, well time (especially cost of downtime) counts against your TCO /RoIT.

I mean there is a guy in the posts who claims using a Pentium II. Really, don't post your comments in regards to TCO if you can't figure out a hardware failure you are bound to have is going to cost you downtime and probably puts you way out of bounds of the study when your technology is your total cost. The states they used free Linux, which again is going to cause downtime. The code for the Kernel is posted to the web, and the Viruses that do exist on Linux or most prevalent on the free versions.

Before you pick up the phone and call a writer of a story at home, get you facts in check. Reality hurts, and your failure to discover all aspects of TCO are not that persons fault.

And before you pick up the phone and call a writer of a story at home, put down the phone and think about what you are doing. You are practicing a Theocracy with an Operating System as a point of Worship. That means you worship an operating system and are willing to destroy anyone that start peeling away your onion to expose reality. Please be honest and label your strategy as "The Crusades." The reality is that your coming off like the "Cat Lady" everyone has heard of that keeps 250 cats in her home while gladly sifting through a nice mix of food, urine, and more. I heard she made phone calls to the people in her neighborhood when they pointed out to officials that the shell of her house was covering something nobody discovered until they dug deeper.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 2:27 AM

All the companies that have been hit by MS worms can certainly tell you about flooded email systems & cracked SQL Servers.

>> The code for the Kernel is posted to the web,
>> and
>> the Viruses that do exist on Linux or most
>> prevalent on the free versions.

Care to post a link to a website listing all the Linux viruses and worms?

Dude, your grasp of Linux is better than Didio's.

hehehehehehe .....

Score: 0

By lazarus98

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 11:19 PM

WoW there actually is a URL to a page with Linux Viri... Just because you haven't seen one on your machine doesn't mean there not out there...
http://www.viruslist.com...e=virus&words=linux

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 8:51 AM

I didn't realize the number was that high. It looks like there is a lot of duplication in that list though.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 2:15 AM

>> I mean there is a guy in the posts who claims
>> using a Pentium II. Really, don't post your
>> comments in regards to TCO if you can't figure
>> out a hardware failure

Umm.... you do know, don't you, that new hardware has higher failure rates?

No, didn't think so.

And what I posted was that in a job some time back I got a bunch of PIIs, not that I'm using them now.

You can't read very well, can you?

No, didn't think so.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 1:06 AM

You must be a high ranking member in the Linux Theocracy if you feel I should have a full history of everything you have written. And even a higher member if you feel I should take what your write as fact.

I work in hardware and the MTBF is much, much lower on older units. Come on. You can do better than older hardware has less failures. Seriously, thats your argument?

Dude, once you get past 50 cats... Well, lets just say your a news story waiting to happen.

And your "?Facts?" about older hardware, state your references. Here are mine:

www.gartner.com
www.idc.com

Please make sure to use something other than:

www.thebackofmycerealbox.com

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 2:33 AM

Failure on semiconductors does not go up.

Replace the HD & you're good to go for years.

Even if the machines do have a higher failure rate, so what?

When you use machines to do useful work that the company was about to throw away how is that a bad deal for the company?

Oh, next you'll claim you have an MBA & you know it's a bad deal, just because you say so.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 3:32 AM

OK, now you are at 150 cats. And, that laughing you are hearing in your head is actually laughing.

Failure rates on semiconductors...
Replace a hard drive...

Let’s go for a lesson in electrical resistance and how most devices that provide resistance fail. I will give you a simple example - the light bulb. Do you really want to go there? And how would an MBA help. I mean I am willing to give credit to anyone who goes to that level and beyond in their education. But again, I will point out you probably meant a Master in Engineering and not a Masters in Business Administration. But then again, based on your posts you probably did mean MBA.

There is a big difference in our writings. You hate the fact I point out these things. I enjoy the opportunity to have you help prove my point and help me to set the record straight.

I suggest removing your comments.

Anyway, don't you have some phone calls to make?

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 2:52 AM

the "discussion" (if you can cool off long enough to calmly have a discussion) was TCO of older machines.

TCO == financial calculation
do you think maybe an MBA might help with that?

duh..... it just might, bubba.

Put a pot on top of your skull. After all the waters's boiled out of it put some ice on it.

Score: 0

By iDMan

posted Apr 16, 2005 - 3:29 AM

Seriously. Trying to help you out here. At minimum, it's keeping you from making the phone calls mentioned in the article from which this string falls. I realize that most people can type and talk on the phone at the same time, but I would like to warn you that the stress you are feeling could cause you to forget to block you number before you dial. Just a friendly reminder. Or better yet, don't call at all. But, I doubt that is possible based off of the email string and the anger you show.

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 8:51 AM

You sound like an analyst, you sure know how to run in circles.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 2:57 AM

>> You hate the fact I point out these things

you know what I hate, huh?

That's called a "delusion". Look it up, bubba.

But back to the main point which you've refused to answer repeatedly, namely TCO.

When you use machines to do useful work that the company was about to throw away how is that a bad deal for the company?

Don't you have some pit bulls to train for your next fight, bubba?

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 3:31 AM

To answer your first question, "How is that a bad deal?" Again I refer you to:

www.gartner.com
www.idc.com

You spend all this time and effort on complaining about the outcome of a TCO/RoIT study and its outcome. If you go to either of the two above mentioned web sites and get the answer to your question. And the reality is that you answer you question in your question. They were about to throw them out. Remember this whole string is about a TCO/RoIT Study. There is a reason why warranties to uplift a machine out of warranty for three years cost more than a machine with a three year warranty. If you are running your business on these computers, you need a warranty. See web sites above if you want references. You need to get a membership to one or both above. Again, I am trying to help you.

Still with the MBA... Masters in Engineering is what you are looking for and not a Masters in Business Administration. I have neither.

Pit Bull? That is the best you can do?

And, Bubba? I am starting to get embarrassed for you.

Debate is a delicate balance of intelligence and controll of emotion.

Let's see, would guess you are at about 200 cats. Careful, the news is slow and you could easily work your way to the top story.

As you post your reply's with a red face and contempt when you click send, you point is probably not coming across as you intended. I am trying to help you here. Deep Breath, Count to Ten, cross your fingers, and think twice. Maybe even try thinking three times.

Good Luck.

Regards,

Bubba

PS - Sorry to disappoint, no Pit Bulls.

Score: 0

By leonbrooks

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 10:27 AM

Constantly referring someone to IDC's or Gartner's main page is the height of rudeness.

Not only are you asking your opponent to spend hours trolling the advertisement-laden sites, you've completely overlooked the comprehensive debunkings of several of their reports. Those reports are worse than useless, and by implication many of the other reports on those sites will be too.

You are not providing answers, you are providing handwaving. You're also calling in straw men and practicing ad hominem - and if you don't know what those terms mean, it's time you got an education. Your "argument" goes no further than bluster and cheap tricks, convincing nobody but those already convinced.

Have the real costs of, for example, viruses and botched updates been factored into those reports? Didn't think so. Does it make a difference? Yup, a big one. And what else have they missed?

For the record, there is a Dual Pentium Pro 200 machine sitting among all of the multi-gigahertz wonders in this room, with a princely hundred and ninety two megabytes of RAM in it (8 Fast Page SIMMs), still running Linux 24x7 after Lord knows how many years. Its TCO is effectively *negative* since it's automatically updated and replaces a more expensive machine and the setup costs associated therewith. My children and nephews play games on it, too. GCompris, especially.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 1:21 PM

Shows that you never use them. They both require a subscription and both have a considerable cost. Again, all in the TCO equation. I am sure you can find free TCO reports out there, but they probably don't make the cut. It is impossible to do a free TCO analysis. Think about it... And, you will need to find what that is closely alligned to your business and business model. Our company does TCO analysis for companies, and I will tell you it is expensive. You have to get an understanding of every aspect of the business.

I recommend that you learn how to do a web site search. Here is a link to a specific TCO analysis. Notice you will need to logon. Nothing is free:

http://www.gartner.com/D...=g_search&id=391580

And if anyone were to post such a hardware analysis document, I hope they would be booted from this user group. It's content is equally as large as any three strings on this web site.

I personally think the guy calling me Bubba has one up on you! He at least did the search and found out that everything has a cost.

And, I have to claim that your 24X7 claim is a little odd. You are missing a number: 24X7X4, 24X7X2. How long are you down if you have a hardware failure? That is what the last number means. Many by standard NBD on new equipment, but if you are in a bet your business environment the last number equates to how quikly the hardware vendor will get the hardware back up and running in the event of failure. And seriously, if you are claiming the holy grail of 99.999 uptime, that starts at your incoming and out going environment and your incoming power. Hopefully you are using Liebert for that end of your business reinforced by a power generator with at least 72 hours of capacity. And, I work with Linux to and I can admit the positives with the negitives. You only focus on the positives. How many patches did you apply last year? How many required a reboot of either your machine or you Virtual Machine. And yes, because I do use the product, I know that many of your updates require reboots.

I encourage you to learn CTO and RoIT. And Google RoIT if you don't know it. RoIT is the next TCO.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 2:01 AM

>> Nothing is free:

Nice philosophy of life.

How much did your mother charge you for her love?

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 16, 2005 - 2:07 PM

Did he claim he was running mission critical apps on that?

>> And seriously, if you are claiming the holy
>> grail of 99.999 uptime, that starts at your
>> incoming and out going environment and your
>> incoming power. Hopefully you are using
>> Liebert for that end of your business
>> reinforced by a power generator with at least
>> 72 hours of

For file and print ? (this comes back to your reading ability, the post you originally criticized for using PentiumIIs talked about file and print)

BACKUP GENERATORS?
?????
for file and print?

my estimate of your IQ just took a serious hit.

Score: 0

By iDMan

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 1:21 AM

You don't think that organations have mission criticle for file and print? And, you probably don't count email or your database. Mission criticle is just that, any part of your business that has to be up and running for business to function and not loose $ or for it's executives to stay out of trouble.

For a hosptial, yes HIPPA for a reason why documents have to be available to five nines. For Telco, lets use Sarbanes-Oxley compliance to keep them the executives out of jail.

And you talk about my IQ dropping. Only when it dips down to your level will you see my concern.

You see, I don't hate Linux and I do know that some of the best systems run on Redhat, but it's not free.

200 cats for you.

Regards,

Bubba

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 2:00 AM

Mission Critical is something you brought into the discussion long after it started. No one was talking about hosting mission critical on PentiumIIs.

Try again (in vain again) win your points by trying (in vain) to introduce non-sequiturs which do not follow logically from what was being discussed before.

And,
Linux is free.

Power is not. Internet time for download is not. Computers are not. Administration is not.

Linux is. Completely.

Score: 0

By iDMan

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 2:51 AM

Keep trying. If you repeat yourself again and again, someone will believe you. Linux is free, right? Well, not to the companies concerned about TCO (the heart of this thread). You insist it is free. Database vendors usually support only two flavors (Redhat and SCO). Good thing too, you need support should you run across a problem. Does your database require five nines, well it is probably running or Windows, Redhat, or SCO. I encourage you to check the upgrade paths for each of those products, none is simple enought to click upgrade and walk away, but one is easiest and has the most support behind it.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 3:01 AM

Keep trying to prove me wrong & prove yourself wrong instead. How many times can you stick your foot in your mouth, then shoot your foot?

You did not write "Linux TCO is not free."

You wrote "Linux is not free"

This is the N-th time you try to change your story ex post facto.

It seems to be the only way you can score points.

Last post for me. Anyone who comes across this, I challenge you to count the number of times this poster switched stories midway, introduced ridiculous new claims unrelated to previous discussion to score points, and so on.

Score: 0

By iDMan

edited Apr 17, 2005 - 5:10 PM

You say I wrote "Linux TCO is not free?" That is your arguement. You use quotes around something I didn't even write. Dude, you need to stop working for the IT staff for a fish food company and step into the real world.

Lets review for you - TCO. T is for Total, and therefore their would be no just Linux (software only) or just Windows (software only) analysis. Unless you want to buy (or download) the software and place it in your drawer. For you T is for Think before you post a comment. C is for Cost, and there is a cost with every version of Linux that non fish food companies run. For yor, C should be a search for Clarity in your posted comments. Stop eating the free samples from the fish food company, they are not samples. O is for Ownership, with your free version there is no such thing. You don't own it, have a number to call if it breaks, and you and I both know that the free support documents are plaqued with mis-information (probably from people like you). For you O is for obvious, and you intenion in your posted comments is to offend people with hostility and your obviously need to get a job outside the fish food plant.

The story is on track. And TCO / RoIT (Return on Information Technology - I know you have been dying) is calculated by whether or not a company needs five nines, four nines, or three nines.

Pentium Pro equals IT Rookie. Names someone in Forbes that runs free Linux. Your fish food company does not count.

In your last, you wrote "This is my last post." At least it said that before you will eventually go and edit so you don't look even more like a fool.

Regards,

Bubba

Score: 0

By fewt

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 5:36 PM

Perhaps this is Didio posting as Bubba.

Score: 0

By lyinganalyst

posted Apr 17, 2005 - 5:18 PM

>> and you intenion in your posted comments is to
>> offend people with hostility

One guy below called me a liar. Since I could tell he was not a BS slinging blowhard I answered him civil-ly.

The only people I've been hostile toward were hostile first, and in some cases repeatedly, before my hostility came out.

You, on the other hand, began the name-calling and hostility immediately (the pit bull appelation symbolizes red-neck aggression). Isn't it interesting that you accused me of anger a full day after I pointed to your obvious anger?

This again shows you're quite good at projection. That goes hand in hand with not being able to see in yourself what you've projected.

You made provably false accusations, repeatedly, that a 2 second search would have proven were untrue. And ye